When my aunt and uncle and their 4 kids moved from PA to CA in the summer of 1978, they had a big Pontiac wagon as their family vehicle. I believed they also towed a pretty decent sized camper trailer behind it.
I don't remember what the model year was, but it seemed similar to the car in the photo.
It got traded in on a Suburban not long after they got settled into their house.
in Kent today, never seen it before, a plain-Jane '51 Ford, either business coupe or club coupe, black. It looked a lot like this car, except no whitewalls nor trim rings. This pic is not the car. Pretty neat. He was clipping along pretty briskly in town considering there were a lot of places he had to stop.
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Back to that Pontiac wagon--it even has the adjustable pedals. Don't know how useful those were but it is pretty rare I believe.
I attempted to look at the brochure to determine the availability of the herringbone cloth but didn't see that level of detail. If I remember correctly, Pontiac usually had its own separate little hand-held brochure of interior details, as well as having a large chart on the wall of the showroom showing those things.
I did discover something I'm not sure I ever knew. It looks like there was no such thing as a '76 Catalina four-door hardtop.
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Interesting '76 Grand Safari on the 'All Original Cars' FB page. Well-loaded example, although I don't think the vinyl top added anything to these wagons. >
I did discover something I'm not sure I ever knew. It looks like there was no such thing as a '76 Catalina four-door hardtop.
Pontiac started paring their big car lineup a bit for '75, in the wake of disastrous '74 sales, I'm guessing. The Catalina lost the 4-door hardtop, and was down to just the 2-door hardtop (with that weird roofline that you don't like but I find oddly fascinating), the 4-door sedan, and the Safari wagons.
The Bonneville lost the 4-door sedan, and was down to the hardtop sedan and the coupe. But, those two were moved to the same roofline as the Grand Ville, which got the "Brougham" suffix attached to its name. Bonneville got the wagons, and Grand Ville got the convertible.
I liked Malibu Maxx's when I'd rent them. The 'Ultralux' suede seating trim was nice, and although this didn't affect me as a driver, I liked how the rear seats could be moved front-and-back like the front seats.
When I'd see Venzas, I was reminded of the Maxx.
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Both seemed like they might be daily drivers, which was strange for cars so old. Some bits of rust visible on each of them seemed like a pity. Would be big money to fix them, but my guess is the days of those cars driving around Seattle might be numbered unless the owners do something about that rust.
I kind of liked the Toyota Venza. It had a clean, simple shape to it. Perhaps not eye-catching, but not nails-on-the-chalkboard grating in style, either. I always looked at crossovers as sort of a hybrid...part wagon/hatchback, part SUV, and the Venza seemed to slide more toward the wagon end of that spectrum, to me.
I liked the Malibu Maxx, too. Not the style, necessarily; it does have oddball proportions, and I never cared for the looks of that generation of Malibu, in general. But I like the versatility of it.
Oh, almost forgot, good news...I got approved for the third mortgage, so I could finally afford to treat the DeSoto to a fill-up today
Wow, your DeSoto is looking great. Apologies, but even though you've shared it before, I've forgotten the details on your DeSoto. Year, engine, gas tank size, original price? You probably know that James Stewart playing the detective "Scotty" in the 1958 Hitchcock movie Vertigo drives a DeSoto.
Wow, your DeSoto is looking great. Apologies, but even though you've shared it before, I've forgotten the details on your DeSoto. Year, engine, gas tank size, original price? You probably know that James Stewart playing the detective "Scotty" in the movie 1958 Hitchcock movie Vertigo drives a DeSoto.
Thanks! Here's the details. It's a '57 Firedome Sportsman, with a 341-2bbl Hemi, 3-speed Torqueflite pushbutton transmission. "Sportsman" was what they called the hardtops, similar to how Pontiac once called their hardtops "Catalina", Buick called them "Riviera", Olds called them "Holiday" I think, etc.
I forgot the fuel tank capacity, so I looked it up. The sales brochure doesn't mention it, but according to automobile-catalog, its 23 gallons. I have the owner's manual packed away somewhere, but I forget where it is.
Original MSRP was $3,085. One time I tried spec'ing it out with one of those American Standard car catalogs, which lists the prices of various options, and estimated that, as equipped, it was probably around $3800? A 3-on-the-tree was standard, so the Torqueflite was an option. Power steering, brakes, and even a heater were still optional, even at this price point! Then there was the radio (AM-only) window tint, two-tone paint. I think wide whitewalls were optional. It also has a few extra trim pieces that weren't standard, like the dual rear antennas, and little V-shaped chrome accents on the front fender tops. Mine also has a passenger sideview mirror that's utterly useless...not that the tiny mirror on the driver's side is much better! I'm wondering if any outside mirror at all might have even been an option? The sales brochure is mostly drawings, although there is an actual photo on the front and back. The photos show Fireflites, which was the top full range, and there are no mirrors. Unless they took them off for the pictures? Anyway, in the drawings, they show mirrors on the Fireflites, but on the Firedome, only the convertible is shown sporting outside mirrors.
I liked the movie Vertigo, too. That DeSoto was a '56 Firedome. Actually, if you look close, they used two of them. There's one scene in the movie, shot from inside the car, where they actually drive by the other one, which was parked at the curb among all the other cars on the street.
Seems like a very nicely optioned DeSoto for the era. And almost the end of the line. By any chance do you know how much an equivalent 1957 Oldsmobile or Buick would have been?
The closest Olds equivalent would have probably been the Golden Rocket 88 Super, which was Oldsmobile's mid-line that year. The Holiday hardtop coupe started at $3,180, about $95 more than my Firedome. Standard engine was a 371.1 V8, 4-bbl carb, and 277 hp.
The Buick Century Riviera hardtop coupe was a bit more, at $3,270, and had a 364 V8 with 300 hp.
The Firedome was actually a bigger car, on a 126" wheelbase, whereas the 88/Century were on a 122" wheelbase. So on the surface, it seems like DeSoto gave you more car for your money, but that extra 4" was tacked on ahead of the cowl, giving you a longer hood and fenders. The further you move the axles away from the passenger cabin, the smoother the ride usually is, but it didn't give you any extra interior room. It was no bigger inside than a Dodge, or even a Plymouth. However, the compensation there is that a Dodge or Plymouth was a pretty roomy car inside, in relation to its competition.
I have a feeling that a '57 Special/Century, or Olds 88, isn't any bigger inside than a Pontiac or Chevy, despite being on a different, larger platform. But, if you moved up to a Buick Super or Roadmaster, which were essentially a "poor man's Cadillac", those WERE roomier inside...probably all in the back seat.
I have a feeling that, in hardtop form, at least, the Buick/Olds models were more comfortable than the DeSoto. That low-slung look comes at a price. The roof is low, but it's still a ladder frame, so the floor sits on top of the frame rails, like a truck, rather than tucked down in, like a more modern perimeter frame. I didn't think about that kind of stuff when I was younger...I was only 20 when I bought this car. But now that I'm 52, and accustomed to more modern cars, and trucks, I'm seeing that these old cars really weren't as comfortable as people might think. I've banged my head a few times, getting in and out of it. And even when driving, sometimes I have to slouch a bit in some situations. For example, if I pull up too close to a traffic light, I have to slouch to see it, because the top of the windshield is so low.
DeSoto (and Chrysler in general) always fascinated me, in just how fast they could rise and fall. In 1957, it seemed like they were on top of the world. I think they took something like 20% of the domestic market in sales, something they hadn't seen in years. Once upon a time, Mopar would often outsell Ford Motor Company for #2 slot overall, behind GM. That's because Ford was weak in the middle price market. Ford outsold Plymouth by a wide margin, but Lincoln was fairly low volume in those days, and there was nothing in between, until Mercury came out. And even then, Mercury and DeSoto usually had similar sales, until the '49 models came out and then Mercury really took off.
I read that Chrysler executives predicted taking 25% of the market for '58, but when the recession hit, and the backlash against the quality control, and they slipped to something like 15%. In 1959, as the market in general recovered, their share slipped to around 12-13%.
As for DeSoto, I remember there was some metric by which it actually outsold Chrysler, in 1956. It might have been calendar year sales, which would count part of the 1957 model year? And even for 1957, it was close, something like 124,000 Chryslers to 117,500 Desotos. I believe '57 was Desoto's 3rd best sales year, ever. Off the top of my head, I think they sold around 130K 1950 models, and 125K 1953's. In '55, I think they moved 115K, and 110K for '56.
But they fell fast, and hard. Down to about 49K for 1958, 46K for 1959. The reduced 1960 model lineup was something like 26,011 units. And then for '61, the year the Newport came out and undercut even the cheapest DeSotos, just 3,034 DeSotos were sold in the abbreviated 1961 model year. That finale had them cut to just a hardtop coupe and hardtop sedan, and no model name. They were just "DeSotos."
I thought Chrysler had some really neat and appealing cars during that period. Car reviews liked the responsive and flat handling that they provided in comparison to the mushy GMs and Fords. For the most part I thought Ford products were boring, except Edsel which had some neat features but poor quality and support. To this day if I discuss cars with dad who is 86, he will always say Chryslers had great drive trains and horrible body integrity. Funny story that I think I've share before, when I bought my 84 Plymouth Horizon and brought it over to my parent's house to show them, dad was standing in the driveway motioning me to park in the street. No Chrysler product would share his driveway! Later, to add insult to injury, he asked if he could use the Horizon to drive to out of town to a client's office as his Eldorado diesel was in the shop (again) and mom was out of town with her Olds 98. He actually enjoyed driving the Horizon!
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That's kinda funny, that your Dad banned Chrysler products from his driveway! Back in the days when people were more brand loyal, I know you could almost get into gang warfare over Ford vs Chevy, but both of those groups usually just overlooked Chrysler. But I've noticed, in some of the Chrysler groups, they tend to get a really strong "MoPar or NoCar" mentality.
Actually, my maternal Granddad hated Fords, but I think what was really going on, was that he pretty much learned how to work on GM cars, so GM's way of doing things made sense to him, while Ford's way probably seemed stupid. Probably like the whole "Atari vs Intellivision" thing of the early 80's (before ColecoVision came out and kicked both of their butts, and then the whole video game industry crashed). Or the iPhone vs Android debates of today.
But, even there, Granddad had some leeway. One of his first cars was an old Model A 2-door sedan. He was driving a 1940 Chrysler Royal when he met Grandmom in 1946. His first "pickup truck" was a 1939 Plymouth sedan he bought, cut the rear off behind the B-pillar, and built a wooden bed. And when I was a kid, he got a '64 Galaxie 500 4-door, for something like 90 bucks, for my Dad to use. That was because Dad tended to buy some cool, but junky cars that were constantly breaking down, so he'd often use my Mom's car to go goofing off, and leave Mom and me car-less. Of course, Dad hated Fords, himself, so Mom usually ended up driving the Galaxie, while Dad goofed off in the "good" car!
In later years, Dad himself admitted that Fords weren't so bad. But I think what was going on, was that his parents always bought Fords, so maybe there was some rebellion there? And Dad REALLY wanted a '63 Impala SS409, but his first car was a '64 Galaxie hardtop. I think it was an XL with a 390, but not sure. Dad bought it from someone who got drafted, but when he found a '63 SS for sale, he traded and bought that. And then, as luck would happen, Dad got drafted too, and ended up selling his dream car.
It's amusing to think of the perceptions and impressions of cars you had way back when. Growing up in the '60s Dad was a Ford man in the early years but I think he had a bad experience with the '61 Meteor, which was more or less equivalent to the '61 Fairlane, which was Ford's entry-level full-size that year. It was a low-end 6-cylinder, and I don't remember if it even had an automatic transmission - I suspect not. I recall it always looked like it was drooping in the rear end, and I know the Fords and Mercury full-sizers of that era were suspended with very soft springs. There may have been some car sickness among some of us kids back then which contributed to the issue. Anyway starting in '63 he went GM, with several Pontiacs (Chevy-based up here of course), and then a '69 Impala which was again very softly sprung and we all hated driving in for that reason. He traded that on his '71 Dodge Monaco, his first Chrysler product.
For me the GM cars seemed "normal", the Fords seemed soft and wallowy but quiet, and the only experience I had with '60s-era Plymouths and Dodges was when Mom took me in a taxi somewhere, all of which around here seemed to be Chrysler products. I remember they had lots of interior room, though very plain trim of course. But the one thing I remember is the sound they made. The Torque-Flite in those cabs (in my memory at least) had a distinctive whirry sound. I don't remember that in our '71 Monaco.
Out driving yesterday an early 70s, last of the dinosaurs, caprice convertible. Burgundy with the top down. Made me think of the Brady bunch! What a barge.
Our '62 Fairlane four-door sedan was the last non-Chevy my Dad ever owned. My grandfather (his step-father) bought new Chevy after Chevy, in the late forties through 1970, and our town had a strong, honest Chevy-Cadillac dealer, single-family ownership since 1936. The Fairlane was mechanically unreliable by the time Dad bought his first new car, a 1967 Chevelle. I remember the Fairlane still had a manual choke.
RE.: Chrysler sounds--of course, I could identify a '70's Mopar starting simply from the sound.
Took a pic of this '68 LTD at the local post office (rather new and very boring compared to the WPA post office in my much-smaller hometown). It must be an employee's car as I see it there fairly regularly. Tiny-bit surprised to see in its well-kept nylon/knit interior, the front bench has no center armrest but the rear seat does. Chevy switched the Caprice from rear center-armrest to front-only for '67.
The wheelcovers are a 'hate', but the rest of the car is pretty-much all there. It's a 390.
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I'm not a fan of those wheelcovers, on that particular car. But if this was a lesser model, a 4-door pillared sedan, painted in all black, it would have that tought moonshine runner's car look about it, that might be kinda cool
I liked the 65-66 LTD better as it had the flow thru ventilation outlet grille just behind the backlight and trunk lid. I am a sucker for hidden lights so I do like the front end of the 68. I don't think that lime green is a factory color though I think there was light metallic green.
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Those disc wheels make me think of my late uncle's old Ford, seen here with my cousins (fun generation gaps on that side of the family, I have cousins in their 70s) around 1955:
He was a big Ford truck fan, I recall him having many through the years. He had this one into the 70s, sold it to someone local who still has it. His last oldie was a 56, IIRC, which I think he had when he passed away about 10 years ago.
I'm pretty sure (though not certain) there was a light metallic green, lighter than what's on that '68 LTD. It was not terribly unlike Chevy's 1969 Frost Green, which seemed like it was on 60% of production that year, sigh.
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What color is that, exactly? I tried looking it up on the Pontiac paint chart, but couldn't find an exact match. There's Denver Gold, but in most of the pics that looks more like Jim Rockford's Firebird. There's also a Fire Coral Bronze, but in the pics that popped up, that looks more reddish.
Of course, the bright sun can play tricks on your eyes, and that pic also looks like it's been played with a bit. For instance, some of the greens on the trees in the back look a bit off.
Regardless though, it's a beautiful car. I still prefer them out of the skirt, but it wears them pretty well. Wasn't it the 73 model, that still had a flange around the wheel opening, so that when you got the skirt, it wasn't flush, and looked a bit awkward?
Regardless of what they called that color, my first thought would be either "copper" or "bronze". My Mom's '75 LeMans was a reddish color, and I remember her calling it "bronze". But, years later, I was talking with my Dad, about that car, and he called it "persimmon". Looking at the '75 color chart, annoyingly enough, there was both the Fire Coral Bronze, and a Persimmon listed!
Next time I see my Mom, I'm going to have to ask if I can go through some of the old photo albums and find some pics with that car in them. The last time I saw a picture of that car, oddly, was at Grandmom's funeral! They had a slide projector set up, at the viewings, that was cycling through a bunch of pictures of Grandmom over the years, and in one of the pictures, she was out in the driveway, and both Mom's LeMans and my Grandparents' '72 Impala was in the pic. I remembered doing a bit of a double-take, because I didn't remember that picture (although it's been ages since I've looked through the old photo albums), and at a quick glance, I thought it was my '76 LeMans!
I don't know the color...the photo was on a Pontiac FB page I follow and the pic had no description of the car, other than it was a '74 Luxury LeMans.
I know you could get bucket seats in a 'LML', and this one has them. But they strike me as pretty rare in one of those cars. I always like to see something unexpected or somewhat out-of-the-ordinary in an old car.
Yes, the '73 still had the lip or ridge around the rear wheel openings. Later ones definitely handled the skirts better. I think the way the rear of the '74 didn't come to a complete point was also an improvement over the '73.
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I just looked in the '74 brochure. Here's a LeMans in the Fire Coral Bronze... And here's the Denver Gold, on a Ventura... Neither one really looks like that '74 LeMans. But then I noticed the Grand Prix in the brochure...It looks a bit more dark and subdued here, and more brown, but that could be because of the lighting, camera quality, and the way the original brochure was scanned in. But I could see this color, in the bright sun, looking like that '74 LeMans
Looks like bright orange 2654. Look at the shaded area at the front of the fender to the right. The car is beautiful to my eye especially considering that era of offerings.
I wonder if that '74 LeMans has actually been repainted a non-stock color? Something that looks similar to, but not quite, some of the colors that were actually available? I googled a few GM cars in bright orange, and most of them look non-metallic, and more of what I'd call a "true" orange. That '74 looks metallic to me, and like it's more of a copper or bronze color.
From that site, it looks like the car might be in the Ukraine!
I also found this video of a similar one for sale. At first I thought it might have been the same car, just with the tires changed, but this one has a bench seat... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljnD-FkWkMs (warning: I'd suggest turning the volume down, as the music gets a bit grating. And when they start it up at the end, it sounds distorted, at least through my speakers)
I'm pretty sure (though not certain) there was a light metallic green, lighter than what's on that '68 LTD. It was not terribly unlike Chevy's 1969 Frost Green, which seemed like it was on 60% of production that year, sigh.
I had a 1972 LTD in the same color as the 1968 pictured. Been a few years but I think it was called something like "bright green gold"
Didn't all Luxury LeMans cars come with skirts? When I see a car that should have skirts, without them, I'm always left wondering how much metal around the rear wheel openings are left.
I do remember '74 Chevys in that metallic brown-ish color, but that first car is certainly more striking!
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What color is that, exactly? I tried looking it up on the Pontiac paint chart, but couldn't find an exact match. There's Denver Gold, but in most of the pics that looks more like Jim Rockford's Firebird. There's also a Fire Coral Bronze, but in the pics that popped up, that looks more reddish. ...
Regardless of what they called that color, my first thought would be either "copper" or "bronze". My Mom's '75 LeMans was a reddish color, and I remember her calling it "bronze". But, years later, I was talking with my Dad, about that car, and he called it "persimmon". Looking at the '75 color chart, annoyingly enough, there was both the Fire Coral Bronze, and a Persimmon listed!
...
I had a 1975 Ventura in the same color as the 74 Lemans posted. Looks like it is called Persimmon Poly. I always called it "The Orange S-pile" sometimes not so lovingly
I just googled "persimmon color" and "persimmon fruit"...wow, I was totally off as to what that color really is. I didn't realize it was so orange. They almost look like little tomatoes.
Although, in searching around a bit further, I realize what I was thinking of...wild persimmons, like this... They're small, mushy, and taste good at first, but then make your mouth go a bit numb.
I wonder if that '74 LeMans has actually been repainted a non-stock color? Something that looks similar to, but not quite, some of the colors that were actually available? I googled a few GM cars in bright orange, and most of them look non-metallic, and more of what I'd call a "true" orange. That '74 looks metallic to me, and like it's more of a copper or bronze color.
Looks almost identical to the "paprika red pearl" we had on our 2010 Forester.
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Re: Skirts on the LeMans. I can't find any '73 or '74 LeMans brochures online, but in the Pontiac full-lineups, for '73-74, they do show the Luxury LeMans with skirts. No mention of whether they're standard though. The wagon, of course, was skirtless...I'd think that would look a bit extra weird, with skirts!
Once they went to the Grand LeMans for '75, the full-line brochure still showed it with skirts. The '76 brochure only shows a 4-door sedan Grand LeMans, but again, it's skirted. And my '76 Grand LeMans coupe, of course, is not skirted. Interestingly, for '77, the full-line brochure shows a Grand LeMans sedan, but it's skirtless. I have seen them with skirts, though.
So, while I don't know if skirts were ever standard on the upper level LeMans, they were always optional! I'm kinda curious now, too, to know if they ever were standard.
I'll do a little work, but my memory of those cars back then was I never saw a single, late-model one without skirts, and I never saw an ad or brochure photo without them. I do believe they were standard equipment.
I'll report back after I look a little further.
UPDATE: Both the '73 and '74 brochures detail them as standard equipment. Here's a link to the '74 brochure:
I had forgotten that in those earlier years, with the Luxury LeMans you actually got the 350 standard! So while the interior was a bit downscale from the Grand LeMans (no Grand Prix dash, the cheaper lower door panels with no carpet, and probably other bits), it gave you a bit more, where it really counted!
But then, those were the years when over at Buick/Olds, I believe the Century and Cutlass had gone with a standard 350, even in the least expensive models.
I just dug out my '76 LeMans brochure that I bought off eBay years ago. As for the fender skirts, the cover shows a white coupe with a landau top and skirts, and Rally-2 wheels color coordinated with the body. It also shows a brown sedan with skirts and those hubcaps that have the fine, finned pattern, and yet another white coupe, without the skirts.
I guess it is the sad sign of the times but I am seeing a good number of hoopties driving around with temp tags. I guess decent used cars are too expensive that old beaters are the affordable alternative.
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I guess it is the sad sign of the times but I am seeing a good number of hoopties driving around with temp tags. I guess decent used cars are too expensive that old beaters are the affordable alternative.
Another potential sign of the times...I called my mechanic awhile back, about getting my cars in and looked over, for car show season. I was hoping to drop the Catalina off over Memorial Day weekend. He said they're so backed up doing repairs, that he couldn't get it in until June 13! I guess a lot of people are choosing to repair their old cars, rather than trade up to something newer. Can't say I blame them, with the way prices are!
Along those lines, I have a fuel leak up at the connection of the metal fuel line from the fuel pump, to the carb on my Stude. Friend offered to put new gasket in. Didn't work. He found a crack in the line. It's a 283 Chevy. Part ordered from a vendor was too long, but he made it work, but it runs right along the right valve cover. I suggested it should be wrapped to insulate from heat. He agreed. Painted the foil wrap heat-resistant black. Still looks like you-know-what, and it's still leaking at the carb. Sigh. Everybody told my buddy "any place can fabricate that tube/line" but nobody was willing to. He got another filter housing and a different type of gasket so that's the next approach. Sigh.
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'72 Chevelle Sport Sedan on Barn Finds. I absolutely detest the added pinstriping and worse, the aftermarket body side molding not remotely like or where the factory ones were.
If you compare that '72 Chevelle to the back seat of a Colonade, you'll see where the later cars got some of that extra legroom. They pushed the seat further back, so you have more rear wheelwell intrusion. Here's an example... Not the most flattering picture in the world, but you can see the curvature on the edges.
When they downsized for '78, they most likely pushed the back seat even further rearward. I think they made the seats, both front and rear, a bit thinner as well. And up front, the shorter wheelbase meant the passenger cabin overlapped the transmission hump a bit more, making for a larger hump and compromising the center spot up front, and making the footwells a bit narrower.
Also, sometimes with a 4-door hardtop, they would move the back seat forward a bit compared to the regular sedan, because they'd have to reconfigure the C-pillar and rear door area, to make the back window roll down all the way, account for the lack of window frames, and just give the car a sportier look in general. At least, this is the case on cars like my '57 DeSoto. But they might have gotten out of that habit by the time the '68-72 Chevelle was around.
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I don't remember what the model year was, but it seemed similar to the car in the photo.
It got traded in on a Suburban not long after they got settled into their house.
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in Kent today, never seen it before, a plain-Jane '51 Ford, either business coupe or club coupe, black. It looked a lot like this car, except no whitewalls nor trim rings. This pic is not the car. Pretty neat. He was clipping along pretty briskly in town considering there were a lot of places he had to stop.
I attempted to look at the brochure to determine the availability of the herringbone cloth but didn't see that level of detail. If I remember correctly, Pontiac usually had its own separate little hand-held brochure of interior details, as well as having a large chart on the wall of the showroom showing those things.
I did discover something I'm not sure I ever knew. It looks like there was no such thing as a '76 Catalina four-door hardtop.
Those big just-pre-downsized Pontiacs are another car that makes me think of a movie:
“I've never seen that. I've never seen anybody drive their garbage down to the street and bang the hell out of it with a stick.”
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The Bonneville lost the 4-door sedan, and was down to the hardtop sedan and the coupe. But, those two were moved to the same roofline as the Grand Ville, which got the "Brougham" suffix attached to its name. Bonneville got the wagons, and Grand Ville got the convertible.
for Roadburner, a red 318Ti slicktop. I assume not a club sport though. Looked to be in decent original condition. that was parked.
and driving around, a Malibu MAAX (I always kinda liked though, must be my hatchback obsession).
and finally, a 1989ish Civic 4 door. very angular and looked so low and tiny by today's standards.
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When I'd see Venzas, I was reminded of the Maxx.
My Mom had a Venza. Tons of room inside and basically drove like a Camry. Only thing she complained about was visibility.
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I liked the Malibu Maxx, too. Not the style, necessarily; it does have oddball proportions, and I never cared for the looks of that generation of Malibu, in general. But I like the versatility of it.
Oh, almost forgot, good news...I got approved for the third mortgage, so I could finally afford to treat the DeSoto to a fill-up today
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I forgot the fuel tank capacity, so I looked it up. The sales brochure doesn't mention it, but according to automobile-catalog, its 23 gallons. I have the owner's manual packed away somewhere, but I forget where it is.
Original MSRP was $3,085. One time I tried spec'ing it out with one of those American Standard car catalogs, which lists the prices of various options, and estimated that, as equipped, it was probably around $3800? A 3-on-the-tree was standard, so the Torqueflite was an option. Power steering, brakes, and even a heater were still optional, even at this price point! Then there was the radio (AM-only) window tint, two-tone paint. I think wide whitewalls were optional. It also has a few extra trim pieces that weren't standard, like the dual rear antennas, and little V-shaped chrome accents on the front fender tops. Mine also has a passenger sideview mirror that's utterly useless...not that the tiny mirror on the driver's side is much better! I'm wondering if any outside mirror at all might have even been an option? The sales brochure is mostly drawings, although there is an actual photo on the front and back. The photos show Fireflites, which was the top full range, and there are no mirrors. Unless they took them off for the pictures? Anyway, in the drawings, they show mirrors on the Fireflites, but on the Firedome, only the convertible is shown sporting outside mirrors.
I liked the movie Vertigo, too. That DeSoto was a '56 Firedome. Actually, if you look close, they used two of them. There's one scene in the movie, shot from inside the car, where they actually drive by the other one, which was parked at the curb among all the other cars on the street.
The Buick Century Riviera hardtop coupe was a bit more, at $3,270, and had a 364 V8 with 300 hp.
The Firedome was actually a bigger car, on a 126" wheelbase, whereas the 88/Century were on a 122" wheelbase. So on the surface, it seems like DeSoto gave you more car for your money, but that extra 4" was tacked on ahead of the cowl, giving you a longer hood and fenders. The further you move the axles away from the passenger cabin, the smoother the ride usually is, but it didn't give you any extra interior room. It was no bigger inside than a Dodge, or even a Plymouth. However, the compensation there is that a Dodge or Plymouth was a pretty roomy car inside, in relation to its competition.
I have a feeling that a '57 Special/Century, or Olds 88, isn't any bigger inside than a Pontiac or Chevy, despite being on a different, larger platform. But, if you moved up to a Buick Super or Roadmaster, which were essentially a "poor man's Cadillac", those WERE roomier inside...probably all in the back seat.
I have a feeling that, in hardtop form, at least, the Buick/Olds models were more comfortable than the DeSoto. That low-slung look comes at a price. The roof is low, but it's still a ladder frame, so the floor sits on top of the frame rails, like a truck, rather than tucked down in, like a more modern perimeter frame. I didn't think about that kind of stuff when I was younger...I was only 20 when I bought this car. But now that I'm 52, and accustomed to more modern cars, and trucks, I'm seeing that these old cars really weren't as comfortable as people might think. I've banged my head a few times, getting in and out of it. And even when driving, sometimes I have to slouch a bit in some situations. For example, if I pull up too close to a traffic light, I have to slouch to see it, because the top of the windshield is so low.
DeSoto (and Chrysler in general) always fascinated me, in just how fast they could rise and fall. In 1957, it seemed like they were on top of the world. I think they took something like 20% of the domestic market in sales, something they hadn't seen in years. Once upon a time, Mopar would often outsell Ford Motor Company for #2 slot overall, behind GM. That's because Ford was weak in the middle price market. Ford outsold Plymouth by a wide margin, but Lincoln was fairly low volume in those days, and there was nothing in between, until Mercury came out. And even then, Mercury and DeSoto usually had similar sales, until the '49 models came out and then Mercury really took off.
I read that Chrysler executives predicted taking 25% of the market for '58, but when the recession hit, and the backlash against the quality control, and they slipped to something like 15%. In 1959, as the market in general recovered, their share slipped to around 12-13%.
As for DeSoto, I remember there was some metric by which it actually outsold Chrysler, in 1956. It might have been calendar year sales, which would count part of the 1957 model year? And even for 1957, it was close, something like 124,000 Chryslers to 117,500 Desotos. I believe '57 was Desoto's 3rd best sales year, ever. Off the top of my head, I think they sold around 130K 1950 models, and 125K 1953's. In '55, I think they moved 115K, and 110K for '56.
But they fell fast, and hard. Down to about 49K for 1958, 46K for 1959. The reduced 1960 model lineup was something like 26,011 units. And then for '61, the year the Newport came out and undercut even the cheapest DeSotos, just 3,034 DeSotos were sold in the abbreviated 1961 model year. That finale had them cut to just a hardtop coupe and hardtop sedan, and no model name. They were just "DeSotos."
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Actually, my maternal Granddad hated Fords, but I think what was really going on, was that he pretty much learned how to work on GM cars, so GM's way of doing things made sense to him, while Ford's way probably seemed stupid. Probably like the whole "Atari vs Intellivision" thing of the early 80's (before ColecoVision came out and kicked both of their butts, and then the whole video game industry crashed). Or the iPhone vs Android debates of today.
But, even there, Granddad had some leeway. One of his first cars was an old Model A 2-door sedan. He was driving a 1940 Chrysler Royal when he met Grandmom in 1946. His first "pickup truck" was a 1939 Plymouth sedan he bought, cut the rear off behind the B-pillar, and built a wooden bed. And when I was a kid, he got a '64 Galaxie 500 4-door, for something like 90 bucks, for my Dad to use. That was because Dad tended to buy some cool, but junky cars that were constantly breaking down, so he'd often use my Mom's car to go goofing off, and leave Mom and me car-less. Of course, Dad hated Fords, himself, so Mom usually ended up driving the Galaxie, while Dad goofed off in the "good" car!
In later years, Dad himself admitted that Fords weren't so bad. But I think what was going on, was that his parents always bought Fords, so maybe there was some rebellion there? And Dad REALLY wanted a '63 Impala SS409, but his first car was a '64 Galaxie hardtop. I think it was an XL with a 390, but not sure. Dad bought it from someone who got drafted, but when he found a '63 SS for sale, he traded and bought that. And then, as luck would happen, Dad got drafted too, and ended up selling his dream car.
For me the GM cars seemed "normal", the Fords seemed soft and wallowy but quiet, and the only experience I had with '60s-era Plymouths and Dodges was when Mom took me in a taxi somewhere, all of which around here seemed to be Chrysler products. I remember they had lots of interior room, though very plain trim of course. But the one thing I remember is the sound they made. The Torque-Flite in those cabs (in my memory at least) had a distinctive whirry sound. I don't remember that in our '71 Monaco.
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RE.: Chrysler sounds--of course, I could identify a '70's Mopar starting simply from the sound.
Took a pic of this '68 LTD at the local post office (rather new and very boring compared to the WPA post office in my much-smaller hometown). It must be an employee's car as I see it there fairly regularly. Tiny-bit surprised to see in its well-kept nylon/knit interior, the front bench has no center armrest but the rear seat does. Chevy switched the Caprice from rear center-armrest to front-only for '67.
The wheelcovers are a 'hate', but the rest of the car is pretty-much all there. It's a 390.
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He was a big Ford truck fan, I recall him having many through the years. He had this one into the 70s, sold it to someone local who still has it. His last oldie was a 56, IIRC, which I think he had when he passed away about 10 years ago.
Great color. I don't remember that color on Chevys in '74.
Love the full-length sill/rocker moldings.
Of course, the bright sun can play tricks on your eyes, and that pic also looks like it's been played with a bit. For instance, some of the greens on the trees in the back look a bit off.
Regardless though, it's a beautiful car. I still prefer them out of the skirt, but it wears them pretty well. Wasn't it the 73 model, that still had a flange around the wheel opening, so that when you got the skirt, it wasn't flush, and looked a bit awkward?
Regardless of what they called that color, my first thought would be either "copper" or "bronze". My Mom's '75 LeMans was a reddish color, and I remember her calling it "bronze". But, years later, I was talking with my Dad, about that car, and he called it "persimmon". Looking at the '75 color chart, annoyingly enough, there was both the Fire Coral Bronze, and a Persimmon listed!
Next time I see my Mom, I'm going to have to ask if I can go through some of the old photo albums and find some pics with that car in them. The last time I saw a picture of that car, oddly, was at Grandmom's funeral! They had a slide projector set up, at the viewings, that was cycling through a bunch of pictures of Grandmom over the years, and in one of the pictures, she was out in the driveway, and both Mom's LeMans and my Grandparents' '72 Impala was in the pic. I remembered doing a bit of a double-take, because I didn't remember that picture (although it's been ages since I've looked through the old photo albums), and at a quick glance, I thought it was my '76 LeMans!
I know you could get bucket seats in a 'LML', and this one has them. But they strike me as pretty rare in one of those cars. I always like to see something unexpected or somewhat out-of-the-ordinary in an old car.
Yes, the '73 still had the lip or ridge around the rear wheel openings. Later ones definitely handled the skirts better. I think the way the rear of the '74 didn't come to a complete point was also an improvement over the '73.
And here's the Denver Gold, on a Ventura...
Neither one really looks like that '74 LeMans. But then I noticed the Grand Prix in the brochure...
The car is beautiful to my eye especially considering that era of offerings.
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https://www.drive2.com/b/2708613/
From that site, it looks like the car might be in the Ukraine!
I also found this video of a similar one for sale. At first I thought it might have been the same car, just with the tires changed, but this one has a bench seat...
(warning: I'd suggest turning the volume down, as the music gets a bit grating. And when they start it up at the end, it sounds distorted, at least through my speakers)
I do remember '74 Chevys in that metallic brown-ish color, but that first car is certainly more striking!
Although, in searching around a bit further, I realize what I was thinking of...wild persimmons, like this...
They're small, mushy, and taste good at first, but then make your mouth go a bit numb.
Once they went to the Grand LeMans for '75, the full-line brochure still showed it with skirts. The '76 brochure only shows a 4-door sedan Grand LeMans, but again, it's skirted. And my '76 Grand LeMans coupe, of course, is not skirted. Interestingly, for '77, the full-line brochure shows a Grand LeMans sedan, but it's skirtless. I have seen them with skirts, though.
So, while I don't know if skirts were ever standard on the upper level LeMans, they were always optional! I'm kinda curious now, too, to know if they ever were standard.
I'll report back after I look a little further.
UPDATE: Both the '73 and '74 brochures detail them as standard equipment. Here's a link to the '74 brochure:
https://www.lov2xlr8.no/brochures/pontiac/74lux/bilder/3.jpg
But then, those were the years when over at Buick/Olds, I believe the Century and Cutlass had gone with a standard 350, even in the least expensive models.
I guess it is the sad sign of the times but I am seeing a good number of hoopties driving around with temp tags. I guess decent used cars are too expensive that old beaters are the affordable alternative.
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https://barnfinds.com/4-door-hardtop-1972-chevrolet-chevelle-malibu/7-1035/
Still, those were fairly unusual then, yet now.
I'll assume the front seat is back pretty far, but I'll admit to being somewhat stunned at the tight rear legroom for a car of 116-inch wheelbase:
Not the most flattering picture in the world, but you can see the curvature on the edges.
When they downsized for '78, they most likely pushed the back seat even further rearward. I think they made the seats, both front and rear, a bit thinner as well. And up front, the shorter wheelbase meant the passenger cabin overlapped the transmission hump a bit more, making for a larger hump and compromising the center spot up front, and making the footwells a bit narrower.
Also, sometimes with a 4-door hardtop, they would move the back seat forward a bit compared to the regular sedan, because they'd have to reconfigure the C-pillar and rear door area, to make the back window roll down all the way, account for the lack of window frames, and just give the car a sportier look in general. At least, this is the case on cars like my '57 DeSoto. But they might have gotten out of that habit by the time the '68-72 Chevelle was around.