I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

ab348

Ugly then, ugly now.

fintail

tjc78 said:

This could be the most over the top production Caddy of the 70s and 80s.

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTR5dAoo1/

Never heard of that one, makes the designer edition Lincolns look elegant and minimalist.

sda

For 1978/79 IIRC Cadillac had a Gucci Seville. I have a brochure of it. It came with designer luggage.

fintail

I think I have read about the 1st gen cars, but never seen a bustleback. I find very few images of them online, no surprise apparently very few must have been made, or someone has been faking them, but who would bother?

I found this image of an extra classy example:

uplanderguy

Man, that is dreadful.

Seems like I've heard of the first-gen Gucci one, but seems hard-to-believe Cadillac itself would do anything in only a run of 300.

I couldn't find any Cadillac brochure that discusses a Gucci edition, although didn't look exhaustively.

I'm reminded of Cleveland's 'Golden Chariot' company that was always hanging stuff like this on Cadillacs.

I saw on some website online that Caddy sent regular Sevilles to Miami and the cars were 'converted' there, at a price premium of $7K over a regular Seville, although like most anything online, who knows how accurate that is.

andre1969

I don't think the purpose of Gucci-inflicted ANYTHING is to look tasteful, elegant, or stylish. Its purpose is to draw attention to itself, and give the impression you have money to burn.

uplanderguy

This photo was on FB this morning. 1963 models. Odd (to me) to see Studebakers, a Ford, an I-H, and a Plymouth on the same truck. Most other Stude photos like this I've seen were all Studes on the trucks and a Stude truck hauling.

Studes of course were built in Indiana, as was the Travelall. No idea if Mopar or Ford might've had Indiana assembly plants then.

andre1969

This is a spoof ad, but I thought it was timely given the discussion on that Gucci Seville... With regards to that auto carrier, are the beds on those Studebaker trucks the ones they got from Dodge? I also used to think it was just the bed of a Dodge truck, but did Dodge change them slightly for Studebaker? The crease along the side of the Dodge bed seems more pronounced, and with a slight taper toward the back, where it has a little kick-up. And the flaring around the rear wheel opening on the Studebaker looks bolder than the Dodge.

uplanderguy

That ad is hilarious; I'd never seen it before.

Yes, the '61-64 wide bed on Studebaker trucks had been purchased from Dodge. It had been used on the '58-60 Dodge pickups. Other than width (which is a big 'other', LOL--especially on the short bed), I think the styling actually matched the Stude cab better than the Dodge cab. A new tailgate was stamped with "STUDEBAKER", of course, and a new front panel was fabricated. Part of the deal was that Studebaker, in its own stamping plant, would manufacture all replacement Dodge beds going forward.

Other than the tailgate and bed front panel, the rest of the bed is all Dodge.

I'm biased of course, but I think the Champ looks more modern today than other early-sixties pickups. I like the big center grille. More like a midsize, although it was GVW rated the same as all the other domestic pickups. The early sixties Chevy trucks don't do a thing for me; I like the unibody Ford but not the separate-box model that used the '57-60 bed which matches well for width but not for crease line matching the cab nor wheel opening shape; the International pickup then doesn't do anything for me; the Dodge pickup then would probably be my next choice after the Stude. Of course we all know about opinions, LOL.

The full-width rear window, even on the cheapest model, was standard, and a sliding window as well as a 5-speed trans were unique to the Champ. Even the cheapest models had headliners and upholstered interior door panels. It was America's lowest-price pickup.

I actually met the Chief Truck Engineer in 1993 at South Bend. He was a big, burly guy with a big personality--reminded me of Willard Scott. His name was Otis Romine. He had checked himself out of a hospital to come to the big meet downtown, and rode a motorcycle and had his dog in the sidecar. The Champ was his idea. He said the entire truck body engineering department at the time consisted of him "....and a Cherokee Indian named Al Weatherman". I remember him saying that Studebaker "...gave me $25 and told me to come up with something". He was clearly exaggerating....but maybe not that much!

I also remember him saying that midwestern farmers were always clamoring for more grain-tight beds and that was something they were always trying to finesse.

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/148575118/otis-sensenich-romine

andre1969

Gotcha...so it was the previous Dodge! Somehow, I think I knew that, but forgot it. I was trying to match it up with the newer '61+ style Dodges.

I actually kinda like all the pickup offerings from the early 60's era. Although I have to admit, after AB348 said the '61 Dodge looked like a toy truck that was blown up to full-sized, I can't un-see it! I think the problem is that the front-end just looks too plain, not enough intricacy to the details. Like, what you'd see on a toy truck.

uplanderguy

I know I'm older than you, but what I remember from being a kid about the '61 and newer Dodge pickups, is that they were used on the show "Lassie" and I always had to ask my Dad why the wheels looked like they were going backwards. You know about that facet of film that does that.

andre1969

uplanderguy said:

I know I'm older than you, but what I remember from being a kid about the '61 and newer Dodge pickups, is that they were used on the show "Lassie" and I always had to ask my Dad why the wheels looked like they were going backwards. You know about that facet of film that does that.

I remember sometimes the wheels had that "reverse spin" effect on Speed Racer as well. Although I don't know if that was them paying attention to detail, or if it was the 3 and a half frames per minute frame rate they used 🤣

Every once in awhile, they showed Lassie reruns around here, but it doesn't seem like that was all that often. However, I do remember a Lassie marathon in the mid 2000's. I was watching it, and every time a new episode would start, with the "LASSIEEEEE!!" and the whistling theme, my dog would come running in and lunge at the tv, full of rage and ready to kill. The dog was some kind of jumbo Airedale terrifier mutt that weighed about 100 lb, so I feared for the safety of the television!

laurasdada

At BJs, a gold Aston Martin DB7 Vantage. With a shiny set of golf clubs in the front seat. Talked to owner, turns out he lives around the corner from us, he also has a '63 MB 220se convertible. I noted he must be retired, nope, he owns a business that has him working so little, yet making so much, why retire? He plays golf 3x/week.
He said the AM has been a faithful servant the 2 years he's owned it, described it as a "beast."
Life, figured out.

fintail

Hilarious. Especially as when I was a kid, every year my parents received a RD subscription from my grandparents - and it was reading material for the throne. And as I have admitted before, I like the bustleback.

andre1969 said:

This is a spoof ad, but I thought it was timely given the discussion on that Gucci Seville...

With regards to that auto carrier, are the beds on those Studebaker trucks the ones they got from Dodge? I also used to think it was just the bed of a Dodge truck, but did Dodge change them slightly for Studebaker? The crease along the side of the Dodge bed seems more pronounced, and with a slight taper toward the back, where it has a little kick-up. And the flaring around the rear wheel opening on the Studebaker looks bolder than the Dodge.

andre1969

Yeah, I like the Bustleback, too. In a lot of respects, I prefer it to the first-gen Seville. While the first-gen is a beautiful car in my opinion, and they do a great job hiding its Nova origins, unfortunately the one area they didn't erase its Nova DNA was the driver's seating position. While the seat itself is nicer, legroom is tight, and the steering wheel, as well as the whole dash/cowl/windshield, are too close for my comfort. I mean, I could drive it if I had to, but it wouldn't be a car I could stretch out in comfort. It basically lets you know that it's still a compact car, even if it sounds funny calling something that big and that heavy "compact".

But with the second-gen, to me it feels like a full-sized car that's just been narrowed down a bit. So while it's going to be cramped if you need 3 across seating, it still feels like a very comfy four-seater. And, if you get the '80 with the 368, performance was still halfway decent. Either MT or C&D tested one and got 0-60 in 10.5 seconds. Nothing to brag about, but I've seen tests of the first-gen at 12.8 and 13.6!

I saw a road test of an Eldorado Touring Coupe (might have been a MotorWeek test), where even with the 4.1 aluminum V8, they managed 0-60 in 12.9 seconds. I think a Seville was usually a few hundred pounds heavier than an Eldorado in that generation, so that might have slowed it down a bit in comparison. Still, I was impressed that a 4.1 could be that quick in one of those cars, whereas it seems to me the first-gen, with the fuel injected Olds 350, should have been quicker.

Although in digging around, maybe this is one reason the first-gen wasn't that quick in those tests... I guess you gotta give them some respect for using the beefy THM400 transmission, where a lighter THM350, which has slightly quicker 1st and 2nd gears, and also saps a bit less power, would probably do. But good lord, that 2.24:1 axle! I don't know what axle the test cars used, though. I could see a 2.56:1, but doubt they would've tested a 3.08:1, in those more fuel-conscious years.

tjc78

I figured you would all like the Seville, lol.

I saw that Motorweek on the Eldo Touring Coupe. I like the styling on that trim level, but I don’t think they were very popular.

xwesx

I saw a row of cars this morning while out walking that really would have interested Andre! I will have to make a point to take my phone with me next time to get some photos. Stay tuned....

uplanderguy

Really liked this '66 LeMans Sprint with the 4-barrel OHC six last night. A performance six. Not often seen. I don't know enough about these cars to comment on the red inside the wheel wells, or the wheels, but what a sweetheart.

stickguy

I like that one!

sda

I believe the Sprint OHC 6 made around 180hp gross vs about 140hp for the typical large 6. That was real wood veneer on the dash. Sharp LeMans.

roadburner

@fintail The September issue of Thoroughbred and Classic Cars contains an article on a Fintail that was eventually transformed into a rally car:

texases

Our neighbor had a '66 LeMans, I always like it.

fintail

Nice, I might keep an eye out for that.

Fintails were amazingly successful in competition - starting with a 1-2-3 finish at Monte Carlo in 1960, and continuing for a few years after that, dozens of rally/road trophies. Also the car driven by the Rosqvist/Wirth team that is now fairly well known:

https://youtu.be/4PSJVSxJW2A

roadburner said:

@fintail The September issue of Thoroughbred and Classic Cars contains an article on a Fintail that was eventually transformed into a rally car:

uplanderguy

Found this Sprint OHC ad that says the engine was 207 hp.

andre1969

I looked it up in my old car book. Looks like the 230 OHC had 165 hp standard, with a 1-bbl carb. The Sprint was indeed 207. Looking around online, looks like it used a 4-bbl.

For comparison, the Chevy 230 had 140 hp in 1966, while the 250 had 155. The last year, 1969, the Pontiac OHC been enlarged to 250 CID, and put out 175 hp in standard form, 230 optional.

And then, for '70, it was gone, and the base 6-cyl was the typical Chevy 250, with 155 hp. Kinda sad that they didn't continue to develop it.

ab348

I watched a Jay Leno episode about the '68 Firebird convertible they restored with the OHC 6. He said that they had oiling problems from the factory with the valve train and the rocker arms wore out very quickly as a result. Bad Chevy metallurgy I guess. He had replacement rocker arms milled from some special kind of hardened/coated steel when they had the engine rebuilt, no doubt at huge cost.

andre1969

Something else I've wondered about those 6-cyl engines from the 60's, and much of the 70's. Why is it that, for the most part, none of the car makers ever bothered to put a 2-bbl carb on them. I think Buick did, with their 225 V6 late in its run, and got it up to 160 hp, before selling it off to Jeep. And every once in awhile, a hot version with a 4-bbl carb would get put out. Mopar had something called a "Hyper-Pak" that was a hot 4bbl carb. I think it had a really long intake runner as well, almost like a Cross-Ram. It bumped the tiny 170 from 101 hp to 148, and the 225 from 145 to 197. It was short-lived, though. I've also heard there was a run of aluminum-block 225s, but I think that was separate from the Hyper-Pak. Supposedly they had a high failure rate on the assembly line, and were prone to all sorts of oil leaks and such, so they weren't offered for long.

Mopar did offer a 2-bbl version of the 225 slant six, which bumped it a bit from 145 to 160 hp, but only for export markets. I'd think that if Chevy did that with the 155 hp 250, it might see a similar gain to, say, 170, which might give you a nice bit of a performance boost, perhaps better performance at higher speeds, but still fairly good fuel economy, and less weight and front-heaviness than a V8.

Now in the 70's, 2-bbls were basically the standard for a V6. And Mopar eventually started offering a 2-bbl 225 slant six again. By this time, the hp was down to 100 net, and the 2-bbl bumped it to 110. Supposedly it also gave it a much broader torque curve, so performance was better than that 10 hp boost would seem to indicate. As far as I know though, it was dropped for '80, and that year the 1-bbl was cut to 90 hp. It went to 85 for 1981, but returned to 90 for '82, until the end of its run.

As far as I know, the Chevy 250 and Ford 200/250 stayed 1-bbl until the end of their run. I guess back in the 60's though, people just preferred to make the jump to a V8, versus a slightly better inline-6.

sda

The inlaws of a friend special ordered a 77 base Volare wagon, sparsely equipped. Auto, PS, PB, blackwalls, dog dish hub caps, no radio. It did have the 225 2bbl six, which IIRC, on the air cleaner said Super Six. I remember riding in it and not being impressed with the seat comfort as they were thinly padded and not near the comfort of the 76 Volare Premier coupe that I had ridden in before.

stickguy

No radio at all? Unless planing to add a stereo I can’t even conceive of being that cheap.

sda

stickguy said:

No radio at all? Unless planing to add a stereo I can’t even conceive of being that cheap.

No radio. He later bought the cheapest Kraco radio which he mounted with crude metal straps and hang on speakers. Not pretty. To say he was thrifty is being generous.

uplanderguy

andre, your mentioning the 250 Chevy six as an option over the 230 up through '69 on the Nova and Chevelles...a $26 option on our '67! The 250 was indeed 155 hp. Our neighbor friend (a Dad) borrowed it once and I remember him saying "That's pretty peppy for a six". He was historically a Mopar guy but can't remember what he was driving specifically at that time.

My '66 Studebaker Cruiser, top trim level, built with optional wire wheel covers, was built without a radio, although in the five months it sat at the dealer, apparently they installed one as it has the 1966-only radio.

I've seen a lot of sixties Studebakers without radios. I do think the Studebaker buyer was a different kind of buyer...not like Studes were less-expensive than other cars, really, but the buyers seemed pretty loyal. In my town I do remember them leaning older in years, particularly those buying the last four or five model years made.

sda

In college I drove a friend’s well worn 71 white Nova 2dr with black vinyl top. It was the 250 six with Powerglide. The car looked like heck but ran well. I was the dd that night. Not expecting much I found that powertrain nicely responsive and smooth for city driving though I didn’t go over 45. Interstate driving perhaps not that great.

uplanderguy

Back to the OHC-6....when big-displacement and big-HP V8's were readily available on most domestic cars, something that strikes me as sorta sophisticated like the Sprint probably didn't make a whole lot of money sense. Same in my mind as a second-gen Corvair Corsa, or even a Cosworth Vega engine later. I like the sense that it's sophisticated, maybe Euro, but not really a value proposition. I still like all of those though.

sda

A few misses on the Cosworth Vega, price, lower hp than expected though still a nice increase over the 2bbl 2.3, and ac not available where most cars in 75 regardless of price had ac as an option.

uplanderguy

True, although where I lived, I was still seeing Impalas and Caprices without AC. My parents' first new car with AC was their 1984 Monte Carlo. Their 1974 and 1977 Impalas, and 1980 Monte Carlo, didn't have it. My new '81 Monte Carlo didn't have it either.

uplanderguy

Always loved this color scheme on the Cosworth.

https://www.mecum.com/lots/FL0119-356520/1976-chevrolet-cosworth-vega/

sda

I also liked the dark forest green with tan interior. The green really complimented the gold accents and pinstripes.

uplanderguy

To me, these are the two most unfortunate Cosworth colors. Don't do the gold wheels and trim any favors at all:


I also can't tolerate the dayglo orange.

uplanderguy

Here's that green you like, although with black interior. This was a 338 mile car. Amazingly to me, it was sold new at a Chevy dealer 23 miles from where I grew up, with a population of only 1,200-odd in 1970. I don't even recall a Chevy dealer there. I like this green too.

kyfdx

Bought my first car in 1976. Didn't get a car with A/C until 1990.

sda

My first 2 cars, 62 Galaxie, 71 Vega GT did not have A/C. My 76 Sunbird V6 bought 9/78 for $2900 had A/C, ps, pb, 5sp, luxury interior. I’ve always been spoiled but that took me to a new level, lol.

fintail

The Horizon my dad had when I was a kid didn't have AC, and I suspect neither the 70 Mustang or the Beetle my parents had when I was born had it either - and we lived in eastern WA. I think people weren't as used to it, and maybe it wasn't as hot then. I am pretty sure my mom's T-Bird and the S10 Blazer had it. None of the 60s Fords my dad had were AC cars, and fintails seldom have it - my first AC car was the 89 300SE I bought shortly after Y2K.

Michaell

I think the first car my folks owned with A/C was the '84 or '85 Celica my mom bought after they got rid of the W123 220D. This was in the late 80's.

The '85 Accord I bought after college had A/C in it.

This was on the coast in CA, so not really necessary most of the time.

Michaell

There is a guy who works at the store where I buy most of my clothes who drives an '80's 300SD (W126). It wasn't in the lot, but there was a W210 backed into the spot he normally parks in.

I asked him if he got rid of the 300SD, and he told me it was in for some maintenance - the throttle cable disconnected from the pedal in the middle of a busy intersection. The car has north of 300K on it, and he estimates he's spent about $4K/year in repairs and maintenance in the 11 years he's owned it.

(@fintail, is that about right? He says he has to keep rebuilding the front end every 40,000 miles or so, and the parts now come from Turkey rather than Germany)

The W210 is a pristine black over black, with only 60K miles on it.

tjc78

I’ve never owned a car without AC. The 99 S10 I had the air never worked and I drove it so seldom it wasn’t a big deal.

fintail

Plenty of parts are not made in Germany anymore yeah. Even 20 years ago, replacement electrical bits for my W126 were made in Poland. A front end rebuild every 40K miles tells me something else is awry. I hope his running costs includes consumables, or that the car was neglected previously (or that he drives a ton of miles).

Useless minutiae, your parents old 220D was a W115. W123 replaced those for MY 1977 (in the old days, MB chassis designations were not in direct numerical order for some reason).

Michaell said:

There is a guy who works at the store where I buy most of my clothes who drives an '80's 300SD (W126). It wasn't in the lot, but there was a W210 backed into the spot he normally parks in.

I asked him if he got rid of the 300SD, and he told me it was in for some maintenance - the throttle cable disconnected from the pedal in the middle of a busy intersection. The car has north of 300K on it, and he estimates he's spent about $4K/year in repairs and maintenance in the 11 years he's owned it.

(@fintail, is that about right? He says he has to keep rebuilding the front end every 40,000 miles or so, and the parts now come from Turkey rather than Germany)

The W210 is a pristine black over black, with only 60K miles on it.

Michaell

fintail said:

Plenty of parts are not made in Germany anymore yeah. Even 20 years ago, replacement electrical bits for my W126 were made in Poland. A front end rebuild every 40K miles tells me something else is awry. I hope his running costs includes consumables, or that the car was neglected previously (or that he drives a ton of miles).

Useless minutiae, your parents old 220D was a W115. W123 replaced those for MY 1977 (in the old days, MB chassis designations were not in direct numerical order for some reason).

Michaell said:

There is a guy who works at the store where I buy most of my clothes who drives an '80's 300SD (W126). It wasn't in the lot, but there was a W210 backed into the spot he normally parks in.

I asked him if he got rid of the 300SD, and he told me it was in for some maintenance - the throttle cable disconnected from the pedal in the middle of a busy intersection. The car has north of 300K on it, and he estimates he's spent about $4K/year in repairs and maintenance in the 11 years he's owned it.

(@fintail, is that about right? He says he has to keep rebuilding the front end every 40,000 miles or so, and the parts now come from Turkey rather than Germany)

The W210 is a pristine black over black, with only 60K miles on it.

I didn’t get into details what his running costs include, nor how much he drives.

Thanks for the clarification on the 220D. I loved that car, but my mom hated it.

fintail

Spotted this parked with a For Sale sign - I didn't get out to examine it as it was on a busyish street and snapping a pic required timing. Looked really clean, mismatched nose, I think the rockers are reflections/shadows rather than rust patches. I think the sign reads $11500, which is optimistic:



Also saw a 54 Buick Special 2 door post unrestored, on a trailer, a beautiful accurate looking restored 55-56 Ford pickup, shiny black paint that didn't look like modern paint, blackwalls, smaller caps, etc - as they looked when new, a later Tempo, a 2 door Isuzu Rodeo, and a very clean 89-92 style Riviera driven by perhaps the original owner.

stickguy

a ton recently. some running around local. sweet mid 80s red 911 stuck out.

today, we went to Glens falls NY and turns out there was a big car show up there. we did not attend, but there was a slew of cool stuff out and about, and a few parking lots where it looks like people were gathering afterwards (restaurants). at this point I can't remember most but on I87 coming home, I was running next to a 70ish Sub Lime Challenger with AAR style stripes that looked really nice.

also passed an early 70s yellow Duster with nostrils (I assume a 340) that reminded me of my HS yellow duster. and later a red version. a 2 Duster (or maybe Dart sport) day! 66 or so 2 door big Olds. many hot rods.

roadburner

My father's 1965 Mustang was the last car in my family not to be equipped with A/C(aside from my 1969 Datsun SPL311 and 1975 2002).