I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

jrosasmc

If I'm not mistaken, M-B first put a turbocharger on a diesel engine when it introduced the 300SD in late 1978. It was the S-Class series before the W126 but I can't remember the designation. Fintail knows this better than I do, so if you're around, Fin, you can help me out!

The W123 300D got the turbo treatment in '82 - the lower-line 240Ds were always naturally-aspirated (and very slow, to boot).

Mr_Shiftright

Saab introduced the first mass-produced SEDAN in the world. Turbos have been around long before---even the Corvair Spyder and Oldsmobile "Jetfire" had them in the 1960s. And of course BMW 2002, Porsche 930, etc.

andre1969

Turbos have been around long before---even the Corvair Spyder and Oldsmobile "Jetfire" had them in the 1960s. And of course BMW 2002, Porsche 930, etc.

Could you get that little turbocharged Buick V-8 in the sedan versions of the F85 and Special, or was it limited to coupes and convertibles?

Mr_Shiftright

Just the big cars. And, like the Corvair, it didn't work very well. Turbos working with carburetors are pretty dicey.

colloquor

SAAB's first turbocharged car was the SAAB 99 Turbo in 1978. SAAB used a Garrett AiResearch turbo.

fintail

That would be the W116 Like this awesomely period colored example the MB Classic Center was selling at the museum in Stuttgart...it was actually sold too, judging by the prices of their other offerings, probably for around 20K Euro.

Europe actually got the diesel W116 too, with cool "turbodiesel" cursive script on the trunklid. Europe never got the diesel W126, strangely enough.

fintail

Went to Luzern and a few other places today...saw a wide-whitewalled W111 cabrio, another LeBaron convertible, a Saab 9000 parked in the village neighboring where I am staying, have seen a few Dodge diesel trucks in industrial use, a later Grand Marquis near a train station, a ca. 2000 Chrysler 300 being used as a taxi, and What one does not expect to see at a park and ride lot in Schaffhausen Switzerland

Visited the Swiss Transport Museum too, but was short on time. They have a decent selection of cars in a weird rack for viewing...including a Tatra 77, which is an awesome car. I also noticed they had a Ferrari Daytona and a Miura.

au1994

Schaffhausen and Zurich are beautiful. Don't miss the Rheinfall near Schaffhausen. Just an awesome sight.

Mr_Shiftright

Not a very good car, either, but a good try.

fintail

Oh yeah, I was there. My friend, who like most Swiss is intensely proud of his country, is obsessed with the Rheinfall and that region - he lives in a tiny hamlet maybe 20km away. He had to show it off, and the city itself, which is really nice without the insane prices of Zurich. We had to spend an entire day in Schaffhausen and I have been to Zurich a couple times in the past few days. I could deal with living there.

Today I put about 650km on the Panzerwagen - getting over 30mpg in the beast, which is amazing as I do not take it slowly on German highways. I am going to miss that car a little...for the economy, and the very comfortable seats. That kind of mileage and effortless 120+ mph cruising...can't ask for more.

Today's oddities...Lancia Thema towing a Renault 19 cabrio, BMW 3.0 sedan driven by an ancient man, an 80s Corvette and a late 80s Firebird in Vaduz, and the tiniest VW vanlet towing a large horse trailer. I also saw a new 7er and a W212 wagon that I think were factory test vehicles - they had all kinds of decals to that extent.

boomchek

30mpg in the beast, which is amazing as I do not take it slowly on German highways.....That kind of mileage and effortless 120+ mph cruising...can't ask for more.

That's why diesels are so popular in Europe. You don't feel like you're driving a penalty box or a sedan with a truck motor.

Mr_Shiftright

Maybe if Europe hadn't sent us only the penalty box diesels to begin with, then Americans would have a higher opinion of them than they do. All we got were clackety Benzes, bone-shaking VWs and Peugeots and Volvos, and of course American Oldsmobiles and Cadillacs (nuff said).

Those early diesels in America were the "obscure queens" to be sure.

The only BMW diesels we saw were marine turbo diesels.

boomchek

You're right, but lately there hasn't been any diesels from europe in the US, but in Canada we had the Grand Cherokee with the Mercedes 3.0L diesel, and the first gen smart car had a 3 cylinder diesel.

I haven't driven the samrt but the Grand Cherokee is really nice to drive.

fintail

Speaking of clackety Benzes, the 730d has a cold idle noise that would scare most unwashed North Americans - it is not a silent vehicle from the outside. Inside it is very muffled and you can barely tell, but outside at low speed...no doubt what the car is. However, unlike the diesels of old, it is very smooth.

The lowline E200 CDi I had for a day about 2 weeks ago was the same way...it was not a discreet diesel, and you had a definite mechanical connection between your ears and the car at idle and low speeds. I don't mind it though.

I think it is another way Europe has progressed past NA.

boomchek

I envy your driving trip.

The only thing I did that was closest to it (other than my parents driving thru eastern europe to italy when I was 7) was driving on many great roads and highways in Need For Speed: Porsche Unleashed in a variety of Porsches. :P

fintail

It's been pretty cool...although my Swiss friend is a train nut...so we had to take the train on most of our journeys there. Nice trains, but I like to drive :shades: I would have liked to drive more, and maybe next time, I can talk him into it.

He's the one who has never driven for more than a 2 hour trip, and does not like the thought of being in a car for longer than that. He drives a 2 year old Fiat Punto.

If one wanted, they could probably work something out where they change rentals every few days, having a variety of cars...but it would cost more no doubt. And driving here is nice...The Autobahn is not the raceway of urban legend, but it is fun and challenging...and most all roads in Germany and Switzerland are wonderfully smooth and properly banked. Taking sweeping corners at 100+ mph...it's perfection.

I get to soon return to the land of Beirut quality surfaces, SUV driving trophy wives, and LLCs :sick:

lemko

...a maroon 1965 Pontiac GTO convertible, top down, travelling south on Centre Street in Freeland, PA this morning! Could this be Dad's old car?

hpmctorque

We also got some, but not many, Nissan, Toyota and Mazda diesels, and some of the latter were used in domestic Escorts and Lynxes (or would the plural be Lynx'?). Plus, weren't those engines also available in Tempos and Topazes or a year or two? And, oh yeah, Isuzu offered diesels in the U.S. in the early '80s, when they still sold small sedans here. Who could forget the Isuzu I-Mark diesel, and that engine was also available in the Chevette. I can recall one more; you could order a Lincoln with a BMW diesel. I wonder how many - I mean how few - of those they sold?

Mr_Shiftright

That's right. And in motorhomes, of course, you could get a BMW diesel.

You will occasionally see one of those diesel Contis for sale. Probably an interesting car to have if you could get it for maybe $1000 or so.

hpmctorque

Motor homes aren't my thing, but I seem to remember that there was a smallish motor home model with, of all things, a Renault diesel, sold in the U.S. Also, I believe there were or are some with VW diesels.

andre1969

I think Winnebago still makes a semi-compact motorhome with a VW Diesel. I wonder if that old motorhome with the Renaut Diesel was the Winnebago LeSharo?

hpmctorque

I don't recall which model it was, because I wasn't really interested in it. It stuck in my mind, though, because I remember that it just seemed odd that a domestic motor home manufacturer would choose a Renault diesel engine. I know Renault sells a lot of diesel cars in Europe (I rented a Clio diesel in Portugal) and elsewhere, but not in the U.S.

I was never in the market for a motor home, but I remember thinking that if I had been, I would have avoided one with a Renault engine. My reasoning was, even if it was a good engine, there are so few of them in the U.S. that I wouldn't feel confident about parts and service beyond the warranty.

Incidentally, that Clio I rented performed very well, and, as might be expected, delivered great fuel economy.

explorerx4

under the radar - look under engines

Mr_Shiftright

That's not many cars---another classic case of where rare does not equal valuable.

Still, I wouldn't mind having one for a while. Not my kind of car but I could find some gold chains at the Thrift store :P

Here's one for sale! (scroll down)

http://carsforsale.classifieds1000.com/make/Lincoln/Mark_VII

As usual, it has the obligatory hallucinatory mileage claims we've come to know and love with sellers of diesel cars.

hpmctorque

"Not my kind of car but..."

Yeah, but wouldn't you prefer a V8 for the same money? I would.

Mr_Shiftright

Nah, it's too ordinary. I'd buy Lincoln diesel for the engine, not for the car. It's just weird enough to appeal to me.

andre1969

How much torque does that BMW Diesel have, I wonder? I know usually a Diesel will give up hp for additional torque, compared to a gasoline engine, but in those days they often had the bad habit of giving up both!

With around 116 hp, I'm guessing 0-60 in about 20 seconds or so? They were EPA-rated 23/29 (20/26 by the newer standards), so they are pretty economical for their bulk. But I don't know if I could put up with anything that slow. Maybe if you mainly just drive it around town, and all your interstate merges are long, downhill ramps.

fintail

I'm with you on that. I'm sure the 302 in 84-85 wasn't exactly a hot rod unit anyway...might as well have something that's kind of a freakshow, and I don't think it is known to be especially problematic.

Mr_Shiftright

I'd expect it to be leisurely but not that slow. A Mercedes 300D without turbo is about an 18-20 second car, so this Lincoln has more HP, same weight about, and a turbo.

The big problem with these older diesel "slugs" is when you get stuck in the right lane of a freeway---you don't have the power to move into the next lane to your left---it's downright scary.

tjc78

I have very little experience with anything Diesel except our Dodge Sprinter van here at work. I drove it recently to pick up some supplies for my showroom. From 0- 30 it felt like a race car and then the rest of the way it was very unimpressive. Once up to speed on the highway though had no trouble maintaining 75 with a full load.

andre1969

I just looked up the specs for the Sprinter 3.0, and it puts out 154 hp@3400 rpm, but torque is crazy for such a little engine...280 ft-lb@1200 rpm!

I know it would be more than likely illegal, but I wonder what kind of fuel economy you'd get out of that 3.0 if you could transplant it into a car? Say, something like my '79 New Yorker, or an 80's Town Car?

Mr_Shiftright

Not illegal in many states---most diesels are exempt from smog laws. It would probably screw up your driveline though--too much low end power. You'd have to beef things up.

tjc78

Well.. those numbers absolutely confirm the driving experience. All the power is down low, and it simply runs out of breath.

Say, something like my '79 New Yorker, or an 80's Town Car?

That would be kind of fun, would certainly surprise a lot of people until around 40 mph. Like Shifty said though, it may blow up a Ford AOD tranny pretty quickly! Then again maybe not... the 5.0 HO had 300 ft/lbs of torque in the later years of the Mk VII LSC IIRC.

andre1969

It would probably screw up your driveline though--too much low end power. You'd have to beef things up.

My '79 NY'er has about the same torque from its 360...around 280 ft-lb. However, it comes on around 2400 rpm. I guess having that same amount of torque, but at 1200, could stress things out?

Mr_Shiftright

Maybe, maybe not. I'd be worried if you floored it from a stop. You have those tiny little u-joints in there. Do you still run the Torqueflite 8 that year for the trans?

andre1969

Do you still run the Torqueflite 8 that year for the trans?

It's a Torqueflite, but I can't remember now if it's the 904 or the 727. And my car is sort of on the threshold. I know the 318-2bbl used the 904, while the 360-4bbl used the 727, so I'm sort of in the middle, having a 360-2bbl.

I'll have to climb under the car and check the transmission pan. FWIW, here's a pic that shows how to ID the tranny, if anybody spots an old RWD Mopar and has the urge to crawl under it and find out what tranny it has...

fintail

I am home again...maybe once a day I will share something I thought was interesting from German-speaking Europe

This is one of my favorite displays at the MB museum They have everything from displays of buses to race cars, and in the trucks area they have this 1980 MB car transporter, carrying a load of brand new 1983 MB. The glory days.

boomchek

That's neat. The blue W123 looks to be exactly the same (color too) as the one my parents had.

bhill2

Yeah, that is neat. The S-type up top looks to be the same color as my '85 380SE. Great car, too.

Mr_Shiftright

do they have the transporter they used to carry the SLRs to Lemans? That truck was super-fast (had a 300SL race motor in it as I recall)

fintail

Yep, it's there too

Mr_Shiftright

How'd you like to roll up with that rig at your local Show and Shine?

fintail

I shudder to think what that combo would be worth. I'd be afraid to drive it.

andys120

I shudder to think what that combo would be worth.

More than you, me and Fintail put together and multiplied by 10. :sick:

explorerx4

'rennabteilung' = 'racing department or division'
called my mom for the translation

imidazol97

>MB museum

Is that the place shown in the commercial a few months ago where a sporty new Mercedes breaks through the large window to take its place in the museum?

fintail

Yep that's it. I remember a red Adenauer in that commercial that I recognized in the museum.

fintail

I saw one of these oddballs on the road in Stuttgart

oregonboy

That looks like a Golf Outback.

explorerx4

good one.
it has an outside spare too.