I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

kyfdx

Yeah.. I have half a mind (insert joke here) to give him $5.5MM for that car, then sue his pants off!!

Mr_Shiftright

Especially when someone mails you that article. Even rich people do not like to be made public fools of, oh, no.

imidazol97

I did the "ask a question" thing on Ebay to ask the seller about the car 001 at Ford Museum. I'll check back to see if the question ends up on the website list.

explorerx4

i knew it would be white with a black top just like mine.
a few years ago, there was a story about another similar car to the one in the HF that was also donated to the museum.
i'll see if i can find it somewhere.

stickguy

well, the dude with the ebay car did have this covered. supposedly this was ser#001, but that was just the first number of the bunch that were hand built pre pruduction, and this one sold by mistake. His car, per his legend, was the first to run down the normal assembly line.

although I am not really sure what diffrence that makes. I would think the 1st vin would be cooler!

omarman

Drew Alcazar, founder of the Russo and Steel Auction states, "The car with the lowest serial number wins. Either your car has a 1 with a bunch of zeros in front of it or it doesn’t."

Other comments posted on the internet regarding the $5.5 million Mustang #212 include:

Could I have 3 Bugatti Veyrons instead?

Well, the seller DOES have 100% positive feedback...

This vehicle is eligible for up to $50,000 in Vehicle Purchase Protection!

I deducted $1,000,000 for every "believed to be" phrase in the ad, and the car is now worth $11,500.

ghulet

well, yeah, the '0012' for $5M or whatever this jackass thinks it's worth, is only (as he claims) the first 'production' (as opposed to the first 11, which were 'pre-production') Mustang. It's just.....ridiculous.

Mr_Shiftright

"believed to be", you mean. :P

It's true what Russo and Steele say---it couldn't be truer in the collector car world:

Lowest serial number wins.

Pre-production? What does that mean? It's made out of clay or something? If it walks like a regular Mustang and talks like a regular Mustang, then it's a regular Mustang. #1 certainly couldn't have been sold out of a dealership if it wasn't a fully finished production Mustang.

stickguy

well, his logic (faulty as it may be) is that the first 211 were hand assembled as test mules of some kind. And his was job 1 down the normal production line.

Why exactly this makes his more valuable than the hand assembled ones I do not know.

and if the story is correct (including the other article someone posted), the canadian car never was supposed to be sold retail.

ghulet

....lowest serial number, this seems less meaningful (or is it MORE meaningful?) as it applies to a cheapish, fairly low-quality car that flew off the assembly lines to the tune of 200,000+ units (IIRC) the first year.

texases

Normally, yes, but remember, we're in that alternate 'Mustang Universe', where normal laws of physics, supply, and demand don't apply. I somehow doubt that 'Maverick #1' would see a $5million asking price

Mr_Shiftright

You can't drive a test mule down the street. The guy who bought the car ran it for years. And the VIN doesn't say "TM" on it. It's a regular production VIN #.

imidazol97

>say "TM" on it.

What does "TM" stand for? Test Model? Test Mule?

Mr_Shiftright

Oh I made that up! What I meant was the number of the REAL #1 Mustang has a real VIN on it. It's not some test number. That ultimately shoots down the test mule "penalty", but it true or not.

Test mules are never sold---they aren't even road worthy in most cases. They are chopped up. If Ford built a car for their museum, it certainly wasn't a test mule.

imidazol97

http://blogs.mustangmonthly.com/6448377/miscellaneous/first-mustang-are-you-kidd- - ing/index.html

Serial numbers referred to order numbers. Three plants made Mustangs at first. Serial numbers don't necessarily indicate the first production, made-for-sale Mustang as #212 VIN.

stickguy

supposedly they assembled the first batch by hand instead of on the assembly line. Still "real" cars with vins, but not supposed to have been sold (because Ford did not want to).

still don't know why the first one down the actual line is worth significantly more than the 2nd!

Mr_Shiftright

If you don't have a nice, gold-trimmed, framed certificate from Ford stating that fact, you got nothin'....absolutely nothin'.

When they sell cars that appeared in famous movies, they sell them with certificates from the producers; when they sell cars once owned by famous people, they get affidavits from the estate; famous race cars are often identified and certified by the men who once raced them.

And #212 has.......what?

imidazol97

But the question is which plant built the first car that was actually produced for general public sale by order from individual/dealer? Despite one plant's having lower serial numbers, another of the three plants may have actually produced the first car based on time and date of production. The VIN number is strictly an order tabulation method. From what I take from one of the bloggers I posted above, VIN numbers might not have been produced in serial order.

Mr_Shiftright

Well one can make arguments but it's all speculation. This is an auction---where is the evidence of anything besides the seller's hopes and dreams?

This level of proof wouldn't get you 15 seconds in Small Claims Court.

explorerx4

212 and 93

here are a dozen posts starting in '05 about the first mustang plus now it seems they don't know for sure how the mustang got named!
first mustang

boomchek

So basically the only legit claim the seller of that Mustang has is that it's an existing Mustang with the lowest VIN, and nothing else. Whether it was built first or not or first off aseembly line, or first ordered is pure speculation.

The only fact is that it's the lowest VIN Mustang up for grabs right now.

ghulet

yes, the lowest VIN for sale right now, not even the lowest VIN known to exist (as above states, 006 and 093 exist), though it may be the first Mustang sold to the public. Yawn. I still don't see $5.5 million, even if I were a Mustang-psychotic.

Mr_Shiftright

The problem is nobody knows when another earlier car might emerge. One's "investment" could be wiped out in the snap of the fingers. This does not happen to people who invest in "real" situations. Furthermore, the "pre-production" cars are now on the market, so the "first one sold" sales pitch is really the "first one sold back then" sales pitch.

It's getting a bit pathetic in its reach.

Picture this---you buy # 212, bring it to the big Mustang show. Then #93 parks next to you with a big sign "earliest VIN Mustang known to exist".

So what's your sign going to say, and who is going to care?

fintail

American gothic

Longer isn't better

This survived amazingly well

You'd be shot for this in France

Nice fintail

Rocket

Someone actually bid on this

Inglorious ending

Disco cruiser

Easy to find parts

Almost spelled it right

Send it home

Deco hauler

Mini T-Bird

It's like escargot on wheels

imidazol97

The 1979 Olds 98 coupe

is up to $3250. The wheels ruin the thing. The claims are unproveable and weird: what does it mean, "Jammed out?"

The grammar and spelling in the description give me a headache.

tjc78

what does it mean, "Jammed out?"

I am not sure, but maybe he means the door jambs were repainted at the same time the body was???

As for the wheels..... I just don't get it either. If you want the bling aren't 18s or 19s enough on a car designed for 15s?

Mr_Shiftright

27 Buick hearse --- the 1 bid is very suspicious. Hearses are a very weird thing to have to sell, very narrow market, especially for old ones. They're kind of a "gimmick" and the joke gets old fast. Take the money and run if it's real.

80 Seville Stretch --- freak show money.

70 Datsun Pickup -- worth having. It looks very nice. Maybe bid up to $5,500?

36 Citroen -- I've seen a few of these with flathead Ford V-8s. Shame to butcher a car like this though.

79 Olds -- $50,000 in this car? Where were the Money Police?

58 Packard -- finally it seems the world realizes this car is really really hideous. Freak show money here.

76 Grand Prix -- well now we know what a 'like new out of the box" GP is worth from the 70s. More than I thought, and probably a lot less than the poor person who had to store it for 33 years waiting for his pot of gold.

60 Peugeot Wagon -- kinda neat, hope somebody preserves it, but the $1200 bid is already plenty. A money pit, but hey, they are a solid little car. As for the extra engine in the box with "condition unknown"---usually when the engine is in the box, the condition is known. Would make a fun resto-mod. I'd put a Mazda rotary in it with 5 speed and AC.

34 Nash Ute -- you know, sometimes "only one" means that people just decided it wasn't a good idea.

46 Diamond T -- the price is right. This should say something to all those folks who think their rusted out, decrepit farm truck is worth more than $300. You can get decent money for an old American truck, but it has to be really nice and really interesting.

61 Panhard -- how come I can't find this listing in the JC Whitney catalog? Sold for $5300? Well seems fair enough if you want to stand out in a crowd at the local show and shine. God help you though if it breaks.

andre1969

I think "Jammed Out" is just a slang expression, and an update of archaic phrases such as "Slammin", "Bumpin' Fresh", "Totally Awesome", "Groovy", "The Cat's Pajamas", etc...

"Something the Cat Coughed Up" might be more appropriate, though.

Mr_Shiftright

The braking and acceleration will be substantially affected by 26" wheels. That thing will be scary to drive. I guess in a perverse way it's good that both acceleration AND braking are diminished at the same time. :P

andre1969

I have a theory that there's only one 1958 Packard left, and it's a black hardtop coupe, and it just keeps getting passed around on eBay. I swear I keep seeing that same car pop up on a regular basis. More often than should be, considering they only made a handful of those things. I actually kinda like 'em, mainly because they look like a bad copy of a '57-58 DeSoto/Chrysler.

I'm also impressed that '76 Grand Prix hit its reserve. Yeah, maybe $10,400 is all the car is worth, but you know how delusional sellers of cars like this can be. All they see is how well-preserved/low-mileage/well-equipped the car is, and nevermind the fact it's still a fairly low-demand car. That also looks like it has real leather for the seats. I didn't know you could even get leather in a Grand Prix back then. But then it is an LJ, and Pontiac didn't have an Eldo/Toro/Riviera class car, so that shortcoming might have prompted them to offer the Grand Prix in a more luxurious trim level than what you'd find in a Regal, Cutlass Supreme, or Monte Carlo.

Mr_Shiftright

Freak show cars are the poor man's way to notoriety, so I see the rationale.

Mr_Shiftright

I like your theory. I think it goes something like this:

The person buys the 58 Packard, takes it home for $8000, puts it in the garage. Next day, he opens the garage door.

Then he stands there a moment, arms dangling at his side. His eyes dart from side to side. Slowly he puts his hands up to his face, begins to weep and moans soflty "My god, what have I done?".

kyfdx

Grand Prixs were pretty upscale in the '70s... My step-brother got a new '73 LJ with leather and the works... Pretty cool, but he traded in his '72 Monte Carlo on it.... went the wrong direction, IMO.. I think you are right about the GP being more of a Toronado/Eldo in the Pontiac line-up, rather than a Cutlass/Regal clone..

jrosasmc

If I'm not mistaken, didn't Lt. Colombo drive a '60 Peugeot 403 around LA? And was his car a coupe or ragtop? I remember watching those early '90s Colombo TV movies - he certainly had to have had a source for parts because he was still driving the same car 25 years later.

Mr_Shiftright

Well he was famous. He had parts flown in on the Concorde. Even the distributor cap had its own seat and seat belt on the flight.

Actually you can find just about ANY part on ANY car, or you can make one. It's all a matter of $$$ + determination + hoarding.

stickguy

he had a ragtop pug.

texases

lemko

...in the driveway of house about ten blocks from mine there was a light green 1972 AMC Ambassador sedan, a light green 1968 Plymouth Valiant sedan with a black vinyl top, and a blue 1972 Dodge Dart Swinger two-door hardtop with a white roof. All three cars appeared to be in good condition.

fintail

I think you had a monentary lapse into a time warp, and were transported back to around 1973. Happens to me now and then too :shades:

stickguy

and, driving along under it's own power tonight.

a very early Pinto 2 door. Thin chrome bumpers front and rear. For some reasn, i think it was a '71 or '72.

kinda funky paint (mismatched blue), but danged thing looked pretty much original. Only saw it briefly from across the street (it was turning) but did not see any obvious rust.

hpmctorque

An early Pinto in NJ with no rust? It must have lived in a warm, dry place until recently.

fintail

Spotted today - Saab 9000, a couple of ca. 30 year old Volvos, early 90s Cadavalier wagon with the "ABS" badge, grey market 500SL.

uplanderguy

The only thing I don't like about '58 Packards is the fin-on-top-of-another-fin, in the back. The 'pod' headlights don't even bother me...even Merc did this, but additionally they chromed the pods!

The '58 Packard looks svelte and has a low beltline, anyway, not like a Soviet-built ZIL or Chaika!

I know what the price guides say, but I notice routinely that on eBay, Studepackards bring more bids and higher prices, than most other '50's Packards except Caribbeans and the very-best 400's.

Bill

Mr_Shiftright

Well it's not hard to outsell a 50s Packard. But a Panama Hardtop brings decent money. And of course the Carib. Studebakers of that era (I wouldn't even call them Packards because they haven't got a Packard part on them), are such a narrow niche market you need to accumulate a lot of sales before you can come to any conclusions on value. But given the rarity of the '58 Hawk, it doesn't bring very good money IMO. I mean, if you compare to a '58 Chevy big block it's not even close.

uplanderguy

I guess an example of what I was trying to say, is that right now on eBay, there are two very nice mid-'50's Packard hardtops..a '55 Clipper Custom with 46K miles, bid to $7,900, and a '55 400, bid to $15,600. There is only one even-decent '50's Hawk on eBay right now, a '56 Golden Hawk. It is bid to $25,101.00. Now, there are only two days left on the Stude auction, 8 days left on the Clipper, and 6 days left on the 400, but I bet the Golden Hawk outprices even the 400 by the end of the respective auctions. I think there's a perception gap out there about what similar-year Packard and Stude hardtops are bringing. If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to post here.

Bill

boomchek

At one point in the early 90s I remember GM bragging that ABS was standard equipment in all of their vehicles, hence the ABS badges. Not sure how long that lasted, maybe about 2 or 3 years?

fintail

That's right, they phased it out. Not cool.

Mr_Shiftright

yes but there's a considerable difference in market appeal a '56 Golden Hawk and the ugly 58 Packard Hawk IMO. The Golden Hawk should be worth double that of the Packard.

problem is that Packard collectors only have contempt for the 58 "Packard" since it isn't one, and Studebaker collectors would much rather have any of the more handsome Hawks.

andys120

I saw a gen I Plymouth Barracuda pulling into a gas station this AM, looked clean and straight but not concurs. The first gen was the frumpy one with the huge glass backlight made from '64-'66.

The one I saw looked just like this, same color>

ChryCo must've had rocks in their heads thinking that could compete with Mustangs.

uplanderguy

I agree that aesthetically, a Stude Golden Hawk is preferable to a Packard Hawk, but my memory has always been that a Packard Hawk sells for more dollars than any other '50's Hawk, and since none were on eBay earlier today when I checked, I looked online at NADA's classic car price guide (considered high by most collectors, although used here as a yardstick only). Here's what I found:

'58 Packard Hawk avg. retail $23,200 high retail $38,600
'58 Golden Hawk avg. retail $19,400 high retail $26,100
'56 Golden Hawk avg. retail $18,100 high retail $25,500
'56 Packard 400 avg. retail $18,800 high retail $30,500

The Packard Hawk brings more money than a Packard 400.

From looking at eBay, my experience is that most times, except for an excellent 400 or any Caribbean, a nice "Studepackard" will result in more bids and more money offered, than an equally nice V8 Packard Clipper in the same body style...despite what the value guides show. I think it's been this way for at least a couple of years.

Bill