I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

dieselone

It's interesting about the availability of airbags back then. I wonder how effective they were. When were crumple zones designed into cars? Aren't they a critical element to airbags being effective?

Granted, airbags have always been intended to supplement seat belts. I don't think I know anyone who actually used a seatbelt back then.

lemko

Spartan and minimalist come to mind.

Mr_Shiftright

yeah the crumple zone was the passenger compartment.

Actually Federal safety standards went into effect for crashworthiness in 1968, so I'd guess right around then Detroit got serious about crush zones.

But the *pioneer* for this technology was Mercedes Benz in the 1959 "fintail".

andre1969

It's interesting about the availability of airbags back then. I wonder how effective they were. When were crumple zones designed into cars? Aren't they a critical element to airbags being effective?

Crumple zones probably came out in the 1950's initially, and probably mainly in European cars. However, here's a pic of a 1974 Olds 98 getting crash-tested, and considering it's a body-on-frame 4-door hardtop, it looks like it's crumpling up pretty well. I've seen tests, as well as real accidents, where in a situation like this everything ahead of the windshield remains relatively intact, but shoves back into the passenger compartment, and that's where it buckles....exactly where you DON'T want it to!

I know we rarely wore our seatbelts back in those days. Heck, I remember as a kid, hopping back and forth between the front and back seats while my parents, or grandparents, were driving! I don't think it was until Mom got her 1980 Malibu that we started wearing seatbelts more. Maybe we were becoming more safety conscious, but another part of it could have been that, at the time, we considered that Malibu a small car, so it didn't seem as safe as stuff like the '75 LeMans it replaced, the '68 Impala that came before that, or my grandparents' '72 Impala.

I'm pretty sure that those airbags GM used back then were designed around the fact that nobody wore their seatbelt in those days, so they were stronger than the ones of today, which are designed to work with a seatbelt.

andys120

I knew a guy who would when someone parked their car in his numbered apartment parking space, would "pop" the hood and mix up the spark plug wires.

I had a similar but easier theft-proofing technique. I would simply take the coil wire off and pocket it. At least I didn't have to remember which wire went where. :confuse:

fintail

Yeah, the Chevy had a different dash, I think it is mentioned in the imcdb page about the Seinfeld Impala.

The fintail is actually regarded as the first crumple zone car, MB having actually patented the design used in the tech.

Mr_Shiftright

Looks pretty good but I see a lot of door deformation. It's important that the doors stay closed, obviously.

uplanderguy

Re.: '70's full-size B-O-C air bag option

The '74 Buick dash had a redesigned passenger-side portion of the panel, but the Olds and Cadillac had totally redesigned panels from the '73 that seemed to be one basic, flat expanse from door-to-door. The '75 big Buick took this approach too and I always thought this shape had something to do with the availability of air bags.

I remember the center of the steering wheel was enormous on those cars...but I never saw a real one; only the brochure pics. Come to think of it, the center of the wheel didn't seem much bigger than that of my new '93 Caprice Classic.

My wife (28 at the time) and I (35 then) had to be about the youngest people to buy a new Caprice then. They were little more $$ than a Lumina and had ABS and driver's airbag that the Lumina didn't have (ABS was optional on the Lumina I'm pretty sure). At least we got a good color (like a cherry maroon), maroon inside, F41 package, Goodyear Eagle tires with that pinstripe whitewall, wire hubcaps (at least GM's spokes were long and there were a lot of them, unlike Ford's which looked like a J.C. Whitney job!), and a full-size spare. We drove it for six years and sold it to a company which exported it to Saudi Arabia. The guy paid me cash right in our driveway.

andre1969

How did you like that '93 Caprice? Shortly after my Intrepid got totaled, I found that the local used car dealer had a '91 Caprice for sale, with about 76,000 miles, for $3995. It looked good in the pic they had of it. On the morning of Thanksgiving Day, I drove over there to look at it, and unfortunately, I'd call it a $1000-1500 car, at best. Interior was gray, but had a brownish undertone to it, as if a construction worker owned it previously. Not to knock construction workers. But my uncle is in construction, and no matter how well he cleans out the gray interior of his '03 Corolla or his '97 Silverado, you can still see the dirt embedded in the upholstery and carpeting. It also had a huge crack in the dash, and I think there was a seam where the roof and top of the C-pillar join that was starting to come apart. Oh, and one of the hubcaps had an Oldsmobile rocket on it. :P

I was a bit disapointed when I sat in the car, too. For such a big car, it didn't feel all that roomy inside. Shoulder room was actually ridiculously generous, but legroom wasn't so hot, and the steering wheel felt kind of close. It was a car that would be great for six short people to travel in comfort, but if you're tall, not so hot. It only had a manual seat adjust though; I'm sure if it was power, I'm sure I could've found a much more comfortable seating position.

I think it sold pretty quickly though, as it wasn't on their website for long. Those whale Caprices are a popular item around here among the hip-hop/wanna-be-thug crowd.

Here's a pic I took of it on that misty Thanksgiving morning. It actually looks pretty nice in the photo. Even though I like the 2000 Park Ave I ultimately settled for, sometimes I do wish I had come across a nicely equipped '94-96 Caprice with the LT1 350, or a Buick Roadhazzard.

andre1969

Looks pretty good but I see a lot of door deformation. It's important that the doors stay closed, obviously.

Yeah, I noticed the the front door is starting to buckle, and it looks like even the rear door is beginning to deform just a bit, towards the back. Still, for a 1970's BOF hardtop, it's holding up better than I thought it would. Plus, in crashes like this, with a heavy car, the weight tends to work against you.

Just for comparison, here's a crash test of a Buick Lucerne, which I guess is about the closest equivalent of that 98, in modern terms:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhbmKrLbBSM

I'm impressed, in that there appears to be no deformation at all in the door (and I'm sure the offset test puts more force on the driver's door than the full-frontal test). I'm even more impressed that the windshield didn't even appear to get damaged.

And, here's how the '97-05 Park Ave would have done:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gB-n70RlK5s

The Park Ave and its ilk were considered one of GM's sturdiest cars ever, at the time. But, as these tests show, there's always room for improvement. While the Park Ave seemed to do pretty well, the Lucerne looks like it did better.

So even while GM gets slammed for being behind the times, it's nice to see that even they do make regular improvements.

dieselone

Andre,

Neat videos. Here's one that would scare the hell out of you if you placed your family in it.

Chevy Transport/Venture

uplanderguy

I had two Ventures and enjoyed both. I know they reinforced the vehicle before they basically renamed it the Uplander, and you can tell when you drive it...it feels stiffer/rides rougher than a Venture IMO. But, my wife was in an accident with the Uplander that did about $5,600 of damage and walked away without a scratch.

andre1969

here's a crash test of a 2005 Uplander:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_c0QLdJ2P_4

Pretty impressive, IMO. Especially when you consider that it wasn't an all-new design, but just an update of the old Venture & co.

I guess in many cases, a lot of these automotive designs that get looked down on really could have been a lot better, with just a bit more development. Just imagine, for example, if GM had gotten the minivans right, from the get-go. Maybe they'd still be making them.

It's interesting though, that sometimes you don't have to throw out an existing design and bring out an all-new one to get something better. Sometimes, there's enough room for improvement that the existing design can be brought up to snuff.">link title

uplanderguy

'93 Caprice...what I liked...

1) I didn't mind the styling, but what they did to open up the rear wheel wells looked almost amateurish when you got right up to it. Still, cleaned up, I thought the car looked nice.
2) Great value for purchase price.
3) Roomy seating for six, full-size spare (optional), handled pretty well for such a boat with F41.
4) Decent mileage with the 305
5) Had positraction.
6) Didn't do a thing to it in 93K miles and six years.

What I wasn't crazy about:

1) I had the dealer search for a base model (not CL), so there were no pull straps on the doors, and after a few years the hard-plastic lower door panels made 'squishy' noises when you leaned on them or pulled them.
2) Passenger side of split bench seat was pretty close to the floor.
3) Tops of rear door curved in quite a bit when you were getting in or out of the back seat.

I would've liked a '94-96 with the LT1 and the "CL" leather interior which you could get in a great, almost-blood red and it was plush!

I was firm on wanting a base model (to save money), wanting the F41, and wanted only the one exterior and one interior color. My dealer seemed peeved that I didn't have a second or third choice. He called and said, "205 dealers, and only one with the car you want". They went and got it.

After a few years, I started weekly getting postcards from two or three companies stating "We Buy Caprices! Call us first, call us last, but call us, 24 hrs. a day!" When it was older and no dealer really wanted it for a trade, I did call one company and they came out and beat what the Chevy dealer offered for it. Although, that guy was as tough as any used-car manager! They sent it to Saudi. My wife and I joked that we hoped we never saw it on TV outside some burned-out embassy!

dieselone

There was an Uplander video too and it did much better.

andre1969

maybe it's for the best that my 2000 Intrepid fell to the wayside, to be replaced by my Park Ave. Here's the crash test video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BUlByEkuZA

While it didn't do TOO horrible, there were issues. If I got into a wreck and was a chick, I'd probably have to adopt the nickname of Peg. Or at least, Eileen! :P

Mr_Shiftright

"Hello, Mrs. Dummy? This is the Highway Patrol. I'm afraid there's been an accident..."

hpmctorque

"...or a Buick Roadhazzard."

Also referred to as the Buick Roadbastard in an earlier day.

fintail

My brother had a 93 Lumina, loaded Euro sedan. It was a several year old used car at the time, he was maybe 22 when he bought it. ABS, no airbag, awful period GM V6 exhaust note. Low build quality, but kept running through a lot of hard use. Lost a transmission, he had it replaced, then IIRC it was stolen and wrecked.

You made the better choice with the bloated yet undoubtedly nicer Caprice.

re: airbags - GM seems to like to abandon things right when they are on the cusp of succeeding.

dieselone

awful period GM V6 exhaust note.

Yeah, they didn't do anything for me either. Sounded like rocks rattling around in a coffee can.

imidazol97

>airbags - GM seems to like to abandon things right when they are on the cusp of succeeding.

In re airbags, they just weren't accepted by the public at the time. The magazines featured them as a futuristic solution to crash deaths, but the people didn't want to pay the relatively then large amount AND there was a distrust of the airbags.

I recall sitting in one of the cars with an airbag at the Detroit Auto Show. I recall a distrust of the explosive device going off in front of me. Would it be at the right time to absorb impact--or too late.

fintail

The 2.8 and 3.1 could be tuned to soud pretty bad. I remember that Lumina could make some ugly noise if he laid into it just a little. Volume doesn't equal sound quality,

fintail

Were people really that scared? I can't imagine a world without them, so it's interesting to me. I just know that by calendar year 1980, MB had them in full scale production in the W126 (optional of course), but people took to them quickly and tens of thousands were made from the beginning.

Trying to think of the first airbag car in the family...85 S10 Blazer didn't have them, Ciera didn't have them, Tempo didn't have them, 86 Taurus didn't have them, Exploder didn't have them, but the 93 Taurus had duals along with ABS. That was back in the day when I remember GM would badge its cars with "ABS". I remember my uncle had a 91 Taurus that had a single airbag....strangely enough, the car wasn't claimed by a bad tranny or head gasket, but by a random engine fire.

imidazol97

I don't think our 89 Century had an airbag; I think it was 93 leSabre. I recall driving and being aware of holding the steering wheel properly.

kyfdx

My wife's '90 Nissan had the motor-mice.... hated those...

Our '94 Acura had airbags, as does my son's '92 Legend...

dieselone

Were people really that scared?

Scared might be to strong a word, but people were certainly skeptical of their effectiveness. I don't think people were sold on them in the 90's.

That was back in the day when I remember GM would badge its cars with "ABS"
Yeah, that was stupid.

The first car in our family that I remember having an airbag was my dad's '92 Crown Vic that only had a drivers side airbag as the passenger side was like a $500 IIRC.

91 Taurus that had a single airbag....strangely enough, the car wasn't claimed by a bad tranny or head gasket, but by a random engine fire.

Yeah, those cars were a gem;) I hope for Ford's sake their latest offerings are significantly better than much of crap they peddled back then.

fintail

A co-worker had a 94 LeSabre...had one airbag, maybe 2. I am also pretty sure it advertised the presence of ABS on the dash. He drove it up until last year, inherited the thing from his grandmother who stopped driving. Got 2K out of it.

fintail

I was still a kid at the dawn of the 90s...anything new was cool to me. Except those motorized "decapitation seatbelts" which always seemed dopey to me. I remember a high school friend of mine had a Mitsubishi Precis (when was the last time anyone saw one of those?) with that lovely feature. My only experience with cars of that era was my 1989 S-class, which was a lovely car with an airbag of course.

My mom's 93 Taurus wasn't too mechanically troublesome, but I remember the interior plastics aged weirdly, fading at slightly different rates...mind you, this isn't a sunny area. Nowadays she drives a Camry and wants nothing else.

stickguy

those rat belts were only on 1 car of mine. And it was actually my favorite of all the cars I ever had (1991 Mazda 626LX, hatchback, stick (of course). I loved driving that car, fantastic seats, tremendous utility, good MPG, etc. Super reliable.

had it for ~7 years, 90K when I sold it. And the primary reason was (well, beside CCB syndrome) was those damn belts.

ended up selling it to my mailman, who kept it for about 10 years and ran it up close to 200K with no real problems, before it started just wearing out. Still looked like new too.

should have kept that one anyway, but c'est la vie!

uplanderguy

That was back in the day when I remember GM would badge its cars with "ABS"
Yeah, that was stupid.

Well, that's back when it was standard even on a Cavalier and I believe no one else, at least domestically, had it or if did was only on their biggest, most expensive models. GM had it across the board (optional on Lumina). It was pretty troublefree too, and GM was the first to make an affordable system available across the line.

andre1969

Chrysler was actually the first among the domestics to make airbags standard across the line, but it was a driver's side only airbag. It was in mid-1988. My '88 LeBaron turbo coupe, that I bought from my uncle and gave to my ex-wife in the divorce was an early model and still had the "passive restraint" seatbelts. They were really cheesy. You had a lap belt that you had to fasten yourself, but then the shoulder restraint was anchored in the console and fastened on the door. You could unfasten the shoulder restraint if you wanted to, and a lot of people did because it made getting in and out of the car easier. I remember my uncle saying he usually forgot to fasten the lap belt. So, that's progress for ya!

I think the made those passive restraint belts and the motorized belts annoying on purpose, so that people would be more accepting of airbags.

My 1989 Gran Fury had an airbag, and "normal" seatbelts. Now that I think about it, I don't think I've ever seen an '88 Gran Fury,or other M-body, with the annoying seatbelts, so I wonder if they just got the airbag right from the start in 1988?

uplanderguy

The first GM's (well, at least Chevys) with an airbag were the '91 Caprice (introduced spring '90) and the '91 model Corsica and Beretta. Those were also the first Chevys with ABS (antilock brake system) standard.

tjc78

Ford was the late 80s as well for airbags. I think the first vehicle they put them on was the 88 (Taurus-based) Continental.

IIRC by 1994 weren't all makes required to have dual airbags?

tjc78

I remember my uncle had a 91 Taurus that had a single airbag....strangely enough, the car wasn't claimed by a bad tranny or head gasket, but by a random engine fire.

Must have be the 3.0. I think all the 3.8s had head gasket failure at some point. Mine did at 60K. Actually, mine never ate a tranny up to 100K when I traded it. It must have been on its way out though, because, if you floored it to pass someone it wouldn't shift out of 2nd until you let off the gas a little.

lemko

I have a co-worker who has a 1991 Chevrolet Caprice LTZ as his daily driver. he also has a 1987 Caprice and a 1975 Pontiac LeMans Sport he's been telling me he plans to restore for the last 19 years! :P

lemko

I imagine a Cadillac DTS would perform the same as a Lucerne in a crash, but I don't want to personally find out.

dieselone

Must have be the 3.0

Those Vulcan 3.0 v6's were fairly stout. I know several people that put over 200k on those engines. Though I can say from experience they were unexceptional in every other way.

dieselone

I imagine a Cadillac DTS would perform the same as a Lucerne in a crash, but I don't want to personally find out.

Lets hope not. One thing to consider in these crash tests is rarely do you run into a stationary fixed object at 30+ mph.

andre1969

Those Vulcan 3.0 v6's were fairly stout. I know several people that put over 200k on those engines. Though I can say from experience they were unexceptional in every other way.

I have a friend whose mother used to have a 1993 or so Sable with the 3.0 Vulcan. I think it made it to over 200,000 miles on the original engine and transmission. I forget why she finally got rid of it, but it was looking kind of rough. It was replaced by a slightly-used 2002 or so Hyundai Sonata.

My granddad's '94 Taurus, with the 3.0 Vulcan, is still running. He gave up driving back in 2004, and by that time, I think the car barely had 40,000 miles on it. It still looked really good, with the exception of a few "old people" dings here and there, but it always smelled of antifreeze. He had offered to give it to me when he gave up on driving, but I really didn't need it, so one of my cousins got it. I saw it on Easter Sunday when we went down to see them. It was only up to around 80,000 miles by that time, but my cousin and his wife are hard on cars, so I'm pretty impressed it's still around.

I remember Granddad walking over to look at the car while we were down there, and, out of my cousin's earshot, made a comment about how ratty the car was looking. I'm sure he was disappointed, as he always went through great pains to make sure his cars stayed looking good. Now, mechanically, Granddad wasn't as religious, so maybe it's a good thing he usually traded every 3-4 years!

fintail

Funny thing though, he previously had an 86 Taurus (weird early build "L" base model with hubcaps and a blue clock) that had a 3.0, and it did lose a transmission, I was in the car when it happened. No drama, just all of a sudden no gears. For a few days before, it had been shifting weird - would stay in 2nd til around 45mph.

tjc78

Didn't know that the "L" model was available with the 3.0. I thought they were all 4cyls.

Funny thing about first gen Taurus models was that you could get them as spartan or as loaded as you want. The rare LX models were equipped like Lincolns.

andre1969

he also has a 1987 Caprice and a 1975 Pontiac LeMans Sport he's been telling me he plans to restore for the last 19 years!

Have you ever seen his '75 LeMans? I wonder what kind of condition it's in? I'm sure restoring one of those things would be a true labor of love. As much as I love my '76, I'd never do a full-bore restoration on it. I'll give it the mechanical attention it needs, and one day I'll have the ambition to get the driver's seat fixed, but I don't have any plans on repainting it, unless I fall into some serious money.

Mr_Shiftright

I doubt if you'd find very many parts for it anyway. There's not a big aftermarket for mid 70s or 80s cars unless it's a Camaro or a Mustang.

stickguy

was watching some of the Mecum auction on HD theatre last night. One of the cars was a '77 gran prix. last of the mastedons. 2 tone (dark green/gray maybe?) in any case, looked very sharp, and seemed to be in excellent condition. Had the 400 engine too

sold at $5,200, so a fun hobby toy for someone without breaking the bank.

fintail

I remember the Taurus "MT5" could be had with a 4 and a stick (woefully bad to drive no doubt), but the 6 was an option on the L. Here's a fun page for all kinds of OCD details.

When I was in high school, a friend of mine's mother had a loaded 90 or 91 LX wagon - fancy wheels, leather, trip computer, the works. It was pretty decked out, unlike the normal cloth GL car my mother had. By 1995-96 he was sure the transmission would fail - it always shifted harshly, it was traded on a Town & Country (which had their own transmission issues).

andre1969

I wonder if this could be it?


I just did a google search for "mecum auction 1977 grand prix", and this one popped up. Not a very good picture though.

I imagine the 400 V-8 was pretty rare by 1977. That year Pontiac was pushing the 301, which was the standard engine, with a 350-2 or -4bbl being optional. They were all pretty tame by that time...something like 135 hp for the 301, 160/170 for the 350, and 180 for the 400. I imagine the 400 still made up for that low hp # with some pretty good torque, though.

tjc78

That site actually says the MT5 was available on the wagon. What are the odds they even made one? I know I have never seen a manual trans, Taurus wagon. I have seen a few of the MT5 sedans though.

jljac

My 1996 Chevy Cavalier has ABS and that is one of the systems that works best on the car. (The anti-theft system works perfectly too.) Many cars have information the public does not really need to know, such as "Kompressor" "Turbo" "Twin Traction" "Hemi" "CNG" and "Hybrid." Since information about how the car goes is common, information about how it stops seems to be equally relevant (or not).

I believe that the worst example was in 1956 when some Buicks actually stated that year right on the trunk so that everyone would be fully informed about the model year of the car. This gave the owner bragging rights when the car was new, but that feature was not so good as the car got older.

It reminds me of the song, "Love Potion No. 9".. . .about the guy who has been
". . .a flop with chicks, I been this way since 1956." Maybe he had that problem because he was driving one of those Buicks.

Mr_Shiftright

I always thought GM's use of the label "Eurosedan" was pretty humiliating.

andre1969

Here's the most embarrassing example I can find of the Hemi badge.

The ironic thing about the current Hemi is that it's not even a Hemi...it's a "pent-roof" design! Still a pretty powerful engine, but it ain't quite a Hemi.