I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

kyfdx

Not that I know anything about mechanics..

but, I think the modern all-aluminum engines depend on the lube to help provide engine cooling, as well as lubrication, where in older engines, oil provided lubrication and anti-freeze provided cooling....

Unless I'm wrong... lol..

ab348

I don't think the older 3.8's problem was with oil capacity, although obviously if you let it go dry it was a problem and being 1 quart less than usual, that could happen more quickly. I understood the old 3.8 had a funky design for either the oil pump or the oil pump drive that could lead to problems with oil pressure when whatever that problem area was had a failure.

andre1969

The older 3.8 had lots of issues, to be sure. It had a lot of right-angle oil passages that could clog easily. It was also just a very lightweight engine, so I guess by default that would make it more prone to failure than a beefier block.

IIRC, the Buick 3.8 was a deep skirt design that weighed about 375 lb. In comparison, the old Chevy V-6 (200/229/262) was something like 425 lb. 50 lb heavier, despite not having the deep skirt design, which I'd presume should add weight?

Ford's old 3.8 "Essex" V-6 was also fairly lightweight, as I recall. And the Mopar slant six was the porker of the bunch, at something like 475 lb.

My '82 Cutlass Supreme was still running when I sold it, but its 231 was on borrowed time. It had lost oil pressure one morning, so I shut it off until I could have a friend look at it. He replaced the gears in the pump for me (easy job, as it was up in front and easy to get to...no need to drop the pan).

The old gears were chewed up, and there were a lot of metal bits in the oil. At the time, I thought those metal bits were just the internals self-destructing, but years later, someone said it could have been the timing gear starting to fail.

omarman

Larger oil capacity can reduce oil temperature and degradation especially with high performance or heavy duty vehicles. Lots of stress on a twin turbo engine pulling a heavy car such as that Bentley.

Mr_Shiftright

I wonder if it's a dry sump engine? That's a mighty big oilpan if it isn't.

explorerx4

Not only the depreciation from the original MSRP, but how much does a 2012 go for?
One of my kids sent me a picture sitting in the back of a new Roller.
They start at 380k.

Mr_Shiftright

The Germans have done a great job with Rolls and Bentley, bringing them out of the Stone Age, but really now, that's a lot of money for a car indeed.

lemko

My 2002 Cadillac Seville STS took 8 qts. as well.

omarman

Is this the old 6.75 liter engine? Aren't those all wet sump with 10 quart oil capacity? Somebody made a 10 quart capacity oil pan for a small block Chevy. Looked like a big metal box but it was for racing or marine use.

Mr_Shiftright

No it's the VW big block.

omarman

Is this the 2003 Bentley Arnage T appraisal? VW built a revised Bentley "six and three quarter" but it's still a legacy pushrod V8 with 16 valves.

edited to add: When you mention the VW big block, is that the Volkswagen Audi Group ( I can't stand to use the acronym!) W12 used in the Bentley Continental?

Mr_Shiftright

Twin-turbo 6.75L old block is correct!

But still---645 ft. lbs of torque!

fintail

Meh, I can get something like 734 lb/ft in a W220 S65 AMG, easily find one for under 40k, and when the pitchfork and torch waving mobs finally seek out the 1%, it might be a little safer :shades:

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah but that 6.75L engine was old OLD tech, so it's sort of an accomplishment.

Interesting point about torch-waving mobs---during the Great Depression, many wealthy people actually stored their luxurious cars and drove Fords and Buicks instead. Some even had Brewster coachbuilders make Ford Model A town cars--the ones with the chauffeur sitting in the open.

Back then the wealth disparity was even greater than today I think--a man might earn $5 a day and a Duesenberg cost $18,000--so perhaps 12 years salary for a working man.

So if a person working on a Ford assembly line made, say, $55,000 a year in 2012, a Duesenberg would sell for $687,000 bucks.

some rare "duesies" (from which we get the expression, a "real doozy") cost $25000, so perhaps equivalent to almost $1 million bucks today.

fintail

Put a big enough blower on something, and you can do a lot. GM uses that strategy even now.

There's more deference to extreme wealth now than likely at any time in history. I think in terms of wealth held vs percentages of population, we're at a point about equal to the middle of the roaring 20s - but with no burgeoning industrialized working class to step in and save the day. Trickle up economics and all - not progress. The US doesn't and more or less can't make a million dollar car today, but you can still find them - go price out a Veyron, or buy a new Phantom and take it to a house of horrors like Mansory - seven figures will be realistic. Makes something like a new S-class which might average 110K or so look like a plaything.

Mr_Shiftright

a million bucks is chump change these days. You can't even buy a really decent house for that where I live. Modest place at best.

No reason you have to spend more than $150,000K for a pretty spectacular car.

fintail

Of course, you live in an insane place which is really in its own world. Relatively few places on the planet are like that, in most of the world 1M will literally buy you a castle, with money left over. Although as unearned wealth continues to consolidate at the expense of what was the living wage working class, a million is indeed not very impressive to those with good luck (no wait, hard work makes wealth, right, uh-huh).

Even a 60K car today would have been exotic luxury 25 years ago. 150K will get you more or less the highest end mass market luxury car.

On the obscure car topic - not much on the streets today - beat up looking ~70 Corolla going surprisingly fast, Karmann Ghia keeping up with interstate traffic, 380SLC parked in a customer spot at a MB dealer, 70s Beetle cabrio, VW dealer had a very clean early Aurora for $4500, and at a local high end dealer a good lineup: 300SL gullwing and roadster, Maserati Merak, beautiful white pair of 560SL and 560SEC, hot rod 63 Ford, mild rod 64 Impala, BMW 840 and 850 coupes, hot rod (?) 68 Shelby, 61 2CV, MB SL65 and 2x S65, and to touch on a previous car mentioned here, an 02 Arnage T. Something like 6K miles on it, prior owner Randy Johnson (famous local baseball star).

berri

Even though I know its just a gussied up Beetle, I always liked the looks of the Karmann Ghia. I think a lot of what's out there has been pimped up with big boom box speakers and the like though unfortunately.

As for wealth, it always seemd to me that new money blows big bucks on their vehicles, while old money is less in your face and often more inconspicuous.

lemko

For $1 million I could buy entire neighborhoods in some rougher parts of Philly. I could get a pretty spectacular house just outside the city for that kind of dough.

Shoot, there's plenty at and below the $60K mark for a car that would satisfy all my automotive wants and needs. What would an absolutely loaded S63 set me back if I wanted to go nuts?

Per obscure cars:

Spotted a rather nice bronze-colored Lincoln Mark V this morning on Oxford near Napfle in NE Philly.

A white 1967 Chevrolet Chevelle Super Sport with black vinyl top.

Rough-looking black 1964 Dodge Coronet in the rear of a body shop.

lemko

OLD MONEY:





NEW MONEY

Mr_Shiftright

RAN OUT OF MONEY:

jljac

Being rich now ain’t what it used to be. In 1916, John D, Rockefeller was estimated to be worth one billion dollars while the entire annual federal budget was only $713,000,000 (713 million) Compare http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._Rockefeller to http://federal-budget.findthedata.org/l/18/1916. Some complain about the richest one-percent now, but Rockefeller was worth 1.53% of the entire US gross domestic product when he died in 1937. He might have been wealthier but he spent the last 40 years of his life in retirement giving much of his wealth away.

Meanwhile, Chicago chewing gum king William Wrigley Jr. owned the Chicago Cubs baseball team AND the Wrigley Field ball parks in Chicago AND Los Angeles, the Wrigley Building, nearly all of Santa Catalina Island (except for a few small lots in Avalon), the Airport in the Sky (he built it), the airline equiped with DC 3s that had an exclusive right to fly to it, and the steamship company that brought passengers to the Island. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Wrigley,_Jr No person could possibly own anything equivalent to that amount of wealth today. It would be quickly taken by income and property taxes.

fintail

For 1M you could buy a block of houses in most of the country. Not sure if that would be the best way to go, though - over the past decade, one would have been better off buying a couple high end classics. If you had bought several mint 190SLs (heck, 10 years ago you could have bought 20 or more for 1M) or a couple of 300SLs, you'd have a nice return today.

You can get a S63 to near 150K, S65 to maybe 190K or so - but the latter sells in very small numbers.

fintail

You should see some of the customs that sell to Russian oligarchs, and some of the stuff that is connected to Chinese sweatshop capitalists. Taste and class are not in the vocabulary.

A Phantom V also screams old money to me - I don't know if anything can be more elegant. Comparing it to a brutish new Phantom is insane:



In my area there is a lot of money that was made maybe 50 years ago. When I see an old lady in a pristine 560SEC, I am willing to wager she has more to her than the typical trust fund [non-permissible content removed] zipping around in a Ferrari or Bentley.

fintail

And so it should - being policeman of the world aint cheap, and those who benefit most from it should pay the most. Here's to hoping we don't revert to a turn of the 20th century socio-economic spectrum. Sweatshops and kids working in coal mines, no thanks.

Mr_Shiftright

Phantom Vs are very elegant indeed. But you'd need plenty of "old money" just to keep one running day to day. Old Rollies break down a lot. But you'd probably have a spare anyway!

wevk

Old Money
The engine output on a Rolls-Royce was listed as "adequate"

New Money
563HP
http://www.worldcarfans.com/109072120582/rolls-royce-ghost-confirmed-with-563bhp- ---performance-figures-revealed

fintail

Yep, I don't think that was ever the sole car in a garage. But for the price saved (I think one of those in concours condition is still half of a new BMW Phantom), you could maintain it for some time. Oh, and I guess you need to add in the cost of a driver, as that wasn't a car you drove yourself.

fintail

Speaking of S63, for the price of an Equus you can have a low mileage nearly full option load rare colors car, and I have seen them even cheaper, but not with such options or miles.

Odd sighting today - W211 E55 wagon, very few were sold, cool car. Also saw a tired looking early Lexus GS.

Mr_Shiftright

Well it wasn't "adequate" by a long shot for that big boat.

wevk

True, however how much does it matter when your in the back seat.

Mr_Shiftright

Exactly--what's the rush? Their big 6s were good but the first Rolls V-8s were a disaster.

michaellno

Odd sighting today - W211 E55 wagon, very few were sold, cool car.

Over the weekend I saw a new E63 wagon. White, with temp tags on it. I gotta believe those are pretty rare as well.

fintail

Wow, a dream car for me, I would love one of those. I think the W212 wagon is pretty sharp, and the AMG is cool and rare.

fintail

Awesome obscure sighting today, tough to beat this...

Thismorning, I drove down to a local detail shop, as the E55 is now 10 years old, and I am thinking of having the effects of time on the clearcoat buffed out (mostly fine scratches not visible in normal light, but easy to see under fluorescent - bugs me, as I am OCD). Not exactly cheap, but it might keep my new car ambitions at bay. Anyway, I was chatting with the proprietor, and he asks if I want to see a "special Porsche". Of course, I say yes, and here's what he had sitting beside the shop:











Yes, it's real. Apparently one of the last ones made, 8xx original kms. The paint is dull because it is covered with the original protective coating - owner is recommissioning the car and plans to drive it. I loved this car when I was a kid, I had several models of it.

texases

"owner is recommissioning the car and plans to drive it."

Hmm...wouldn't they be (big) $$ ahead to sell it 'as is' and buy one that has already been used? Seems like a pristine/original/lowwww km 959 would be worth a LOT... :confuse:

kyfdx

Yes, it's real

LOL... I was already asking the question, before I scrolled down to see the answer..

The ultimate collector's car..

fintail

I was thinking the same thing, driving it will devalue it. But at the same time, if you own that, you already have money coming out of your ears, so maybe it doesn't matter. I have to wonder where and why it sat around for over 20 years.

Detail shop guy told me the car is to be cleaned up to as-new standards, with protective covering over the frontal areas. It seems to be running and driving already - I didn't see it in motion, but the engine was warm. Original tires, too.

fintail

I remember kits to "convert" a normal 911 into one of these - always kind of hokey, but some bought them.

kyfdx

I would drive the crap out of that car... :P

fintail

Me too. It deserves to be set free and live a life. I think it is cool the owner is going to drive it and not just use it as a financial instrument on wheels. It needs to get out, be shown off, driven (not trailered) to shows, where it can be appreciated.

andys120

We drove to downtown Tucson AZ to see a play that featured a friend of our. The theater was located on a small street lined with picturesque 1930s style bungalows and I couldn't help but notice that several of the dozen or so cars parked on this short block were 1960s era Chevies, most of them in restored condition including a '63 Impala 2d H/T, a '64 Biscayne 2d H/T, a '68 or '69 Impala 4d H/T and a '68 or '69 ElCamino. Then I noticed they were all fitted with wire wheels that were of small (13"?) diameter but wide rim width and had knock-off hubs.

Then I realized these Chevies all sat on their suspensions a little oddly so they must have been a set up with "low Rider" hydraulic systems. It's a good thing none of the owners came out to do demos, they would have stolen the attention of theater-goers (me included)

ab348

I didn't know what it was until you told us, and my initial thought was exactly that - some sort of body kit tacked on to a 911.

OK, I'll say it: that thing is seriously unattractive.

Mr_Shiftright

I'd check the VIN on that one---some of these cars were built up later from surplus parts----that's not necessarily a bad thing but you know, there's always this little "cloud" about it....

The car should be in a museum---it's not a supercar anymore--there are plenty of newer Porsches that can smack it silly now.

Value? probably north of $200K once she's running and cleaned up.

texases

"The car should be in a museum"

That's kinda what I was thinking, some German would pay big money for a 959 in that condition, I'd think. Kinda like what some nut collector might pay for a 900-mile '65 Corvette over here...

Mr_Shiftright

It's not going to be a very good daily driver. It has many unique features and mechanicals and I think it would be a devil to keep in good repair. Well , the owner will find out soon enough.

fintail

I don't think the owner was looking to make it into a commuter, but rather just to take it to local meets and sunny summer Sunday drives.

I do have to agree though, it has to be such a pain getting it back up to speed, that it would be wiser to get one that has been driven a little more, just for less effort. Some OCD German would leave that coating on it, no doubt.

Mr_Shiftright

They only made 200 of 'em (if you don't count the later assembled ones) and so if it gets smacked really badly, that would be a shame.

I guess if it had EPA/DOT certification (and many don't) and the California BAR sticker, then the price would be much higher than what I estimated---north of $350K I'd guess.

so the EPA/DOT status of the car you saw would be extremely important. It's possible it can't even be registered.

lemko

1960s full-size Chebbies are popular as lowriders. There's a guy in my neighborhood with a 1963 Impala lowrider complete with the "La Cucaracha" horn.

fintail

Maybe somehow it can be claimed to be 25 years old now and get away from all of the egoistic EPA/DOT nonsense make-work policies which exist in virtually no other nations. In Canada you can import at 15, and it is even easier in Europe.

If I had a 300SL or even something crazy like a 540K, I'd take it out for a drive now and then...IMO the over-monied elite who use these cars as investments or trophies and never actually let them touch raw air are grossly wasteful and pretty sad.