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I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Nope, if it ain't 25 years old and doesn't have EPA/DOT papers you aren't driving in on the street. Not even sure how it got here in the first place--probably on that "display" law, the particulars of which I forget.

    the principle behind the law is sound---that some automakers went through all the trouble and expense of getting EPA/DOT certification, and if you didn't want to bother, then tough luck for that model or make.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    There's probably a significant difference between selling price and cost-to-own between a new Equus and that lightly used S63. That said, I'm sure we could agree that the S63 is the better car.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    edited April 2012
    On a car like this which could easily have major parts which are 25 years old, I bet some creative accounting could be used. Or as you say, the "display" law - if you have the money to buy the car, no doubt you can buy the necessary credentials too.

    IMO the idea behind the law is bogus. Nobody is seeking to import tens of thousands of cars to compete with brand new cars, nobody is going to cross shop a new Cruze with a 1996 Fiat or a 1997 E73 with a new E63 - the only real customers in this market are hobbyists and enthusiasts. These private imports, statistically insignificant in the big picture, will have no real environmental or safety impact either. I can't see any proof of legitimate harm being done if we had regulations on par with Canada or Europe. We are the only ones on the planet who have such a strict criteria, and we do virtually nothing else right - it's a little hard for me to believe we are doing this one thing right. I wonder who lobbied for the laws, car dealers, or public sector unions. Seems grossly wasteful and illogical to me. I'd like to see if the tax dollars spent for such policies pencil out to benefits justifying the costs.

    What makes me laugh or cringe the most is we police freakshow private import cars more than we inspect existing cars on the road for safety, or work to have useful drivers licensing standards.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    More expensive to own for sure, but also better to drive (and very easy to argue better to look at) - those benefits likely justifying the costs. At least they would for me :shades:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    There's just no way you're going to allow some people to break the law while others have gone to great pains to follow it. It's a legal and a trade issue, not a 'common sense' issue actually.

    Declaring yourself a hobbyist shouldn't entitle you to any special treatment.

    I have to go through the hassle of smog every two years for $80 bucks, and damn it, so is the "hobbyist" if his car requires it! :mad:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    edited April 2012
    You're right there, what's legal and what's logical or right often have no relation.

    You also live in a place which is far from based in common sense, itself - and is in a financial situation to prove it. Just buy a commercial vehicle or a motorcycle, their respective lobbyists have kept them away from emissions responsibilities. Who you know and who you bribe gives all the special treatment in the world. Brand and model devotees don't have quite the resources to buy such laws - which is what it comes down to, buying laws. There's no "trade" involved.

    Canada and Europe have more lenient standards, we do it different, we do very little correct right in any respect right now now. I can't see why this is an exception.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    Other problem, one badly running car can put out 100x the pollution of a correctly-running car, and excusing imports from EPA cert. would increase the possibility of that. The pollution guys call those 'pounders' for the amount of nasty stuff they put out every mile.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I have to go through the hassle of smog every two years for $80 bucks, and damn it, so is the "hobbyist" if his car requires it!

    Eh, just get the thing titled as a 1971 NSU or whatever, like they do with those Euro-spec Smarts! :P
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    yeah but we have some awful air pollution problems, unlike just about anywhere else. L.A. of course, and also the Sacramento Valley. Calif needs stricter rules than other places. Ever see those old movies of L.A. from the 60s (or dragnet clips?). It's really awful to look at.

    re: non-smogged cars. One of those old beaters would produce about 60 times the pollution of one modern car, if not more. So 20 "oldies" on a tour is like having 1200 cars pass your house. :surprise:

    As for jet-skis and such, where I used to live we solved that problem--we banned them.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    edited April 2012
    Is a statistically insignificant amount of freakshow cars, few of which will do daily driver duties, going to have a real impact on pollution? I don't believe so. No matter, most cars that can make it into more developed places do have some kind of emissions equipment, maybe not like a PZEV brand new toaster, but better than nothing. A lot of the older models with no equipment can legally get in to most places anyway.

    Poorly maintained commercial vehicles (as they seem to be held to zero accountability in order to be "business friendly") do far more harm, not to mention lawnmowers, leaf blowers, and similar. I guess you get the justice you pay for.

    Maybe I should move to CA and daily drive the fintail :shades:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    we're *barely* keeping up with air pollution now---any relaxation is a slippery slope downhill if you ask me. And you know, California didn't muscle all those other states which adopted California standards, or at least guidelines. There's merit in them.

    I think that say 6 cars with no pollution devices on my *block* does matter. It's my air, too, after all.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    A lot of the older models with no equipment can legally get in to most places anyway.

    Isn't a Porsche 959 old enough now to get registered as a historic car in most localities, anyway? Here in Maryland, you can now register anything 1992 and older as historic.

    I thought the reason that the 959 was banned from the US originally was because Porsche refused to supply the US Dept of Transportation with four examples of the car to crash test? Supposedly emissions testing had nothing to do with it.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    edited April 2012
    There's merit to the guidelines, but IMO the interpretation and enforcement of the laws is different - especially when nobody else is as stringent.

    Are all of those 6 cars regularly driven? Would letting a trickle of old weirdo cars in put 6 on each block, when 99.99% of people just want an appliance?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I think the Federal regs might supercede state laws, especially if you want to sell it out of state. The feds have a 25 year rule for private imports.

    I think low volume cars are exempt from crash tests - I don't see exotic performance cars or Rolls etc being tested.
  • omarmanomarman Member Posts: 2,702
    edited April 2012
    Yep, the federal compliance exemption is for vehicles over 25 years old. Historic plates won't save any car from being exported or destroyed unless it is exempt from DOT, EPA, or Clean Air Act regulations.

    NHTSA crash tests passenger vehicles which are sold in high volumes. Low volume vehicles are certified by manufacturers to be in compliance with U.S. regulations. I don't know if ANY Porsche has ever been crash tested by the feds. At least, not on purpose. :shades:
    A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Yep, the federal compliance exemption is for vehicles over 25 years old. Historic plates won't save any car from being exported or destroyed unless it is exempt from DOT, EPA, or Clean Air Act regulations.

    The Porsche 959 was built from 1986-89, right? So, 1986-87 models should be exempt now, '88 models in 2013, and the '89's in 2014?
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,558
    If they made 200 of them, I still say screw the museums...

    If I could afford the $200K-$500K for a 959, I'm pretty sure I could figure out a way to drive it where I want and when I want.... (uh... yeah, that '88 911 in your salvage yard? Do you have a title for that?)

    We still burn coal for electricity where I live... One stinking (lol) 959 is not going to hurt... ;)

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  • omarmanomarman Member Posts: 2,702
    edited April 2012
    I found a link to the NHTSA page for Vehicle Importation and Certification Requirements.

    edited to add: I wanted to see the list of Nonconforming Vehicles Eligible for Importation..but I can't open most of the pdf files I clicked on. :sick:
    A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The Porsche 959 is specifically excluded. It says:

    Porsche (after showing a long list of models) "All other passenger car
    models except Model 959"

    Even if the car is on the list, there are hoops to go through--letters from manufacturers or registered importers stating that a similar car exists in the USA already, or that the car in question could have safety equipment alterable to suit, etc.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Think of the piles of cash in wages it took to draw all that up :sick:

    But hey, it keeps a 1991 car out, so it must be good!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I wonder if it goes by model year or date of production. I know for shipping cars back to Europe where there are similarly thought out (yet less strict) laws, it is by production date - I think having to do with mandatory cats finally coming around in some locations by the late 80s.
  • omarmanomarman Member Posts: 2,702
    edited April 2012
    Oh I believe you that once past the document verbiage, then the trick-hoops-challenge has just begun! Still, it's sort of a left handed compliment for that car to receive the "All other passenger car models except Model 959" mention.

    And there was a VIN question which raised the possibility of that 959 being one of the very last models put together from inventory parts. Talk about a museum piece! It's nice to drive what you like, cost-no-object. But it kinda makes me wince at the prospect of it being sacrificed to the SUV-nation traffic mix. Even if it's not one of the last, spare parts 959 examples...still, I mean, it's a 959!

    Last summer the Dispatch reported another kind of VIN mystery created by a guy from Obetz who attempted to ebay a 1965 Z16 Chevelle clone with a fake VIN as the real deal! Last I heard the vehicle was impounded and the owner/seller was given probation.

    Check out the quote from the exec director of the Antique Automobile Club of America near the bottom of the page. He stated that even though clones are common, "it's rare that someone would try to sell one as the real deal." :surprise:
    A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Remember, for every rare and precious car being put on public roads, somewhere out there, in the mist, lurks a rusted Monte Carlo going 70 mph with someone texting behind the wheel, waiting to meet it. :cry:
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    funny, an old Monte Carlo was about the only vehicle of interest that caught my eye today. It was a black 1980, appeared to be in pretty good, but obviously daily-driver condition.

    Oh, and yesterday I saw an Audi A8, not sure of the year but didn't look *that* old, broken down in the chicken lane on Route 1 in College Park, MD. It was sitting there, abandoned, with the hood up.

    Pretty looking car, but deadly to the bank account, I'm sure.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    Andre, something I remembered just now about '78-80 Monte Carlos (my parents had a new '80):

    They ALL came with the stiff, sport suspension (a friend who worked in a Chev parts dept. actually thought it was the even-stiffer F40 over the F41, although I don't know if he was accurate or not). They were stiff-riding cars! I remember CR saying that about their '78 test model, and I know it as a fact from our '80!

    The 205-70 tire size was made almost exclusively at that time for the Monte Carlo!

    I'll say this though, considering the Monte was longer in the hood than the Malibu, you don't see Montes of that era looking like they need new front springs, and in three or four years you'd see Malibu V8's sitting nose-down.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Saw an oddity today - Alfa Montreal. I have seen it on the road here once before. Soon after, the same yellow Maserati Merak I have seen a couple times. Also had a TR-3 behind me in traffic while driving the fintail - I dwarfed it of course, and that little thing looked amusing trying to build up speed in flowing traffic. Also saw a nice original looking black and white 59 Buick 6 window - parked on the same street where I know a pristine 69-70 Fleetwood lives, I bet it's the same guy.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    Of course they were all VWs. Classic VW show in Fredericksburg, TX. GREAT weather, but not being a VW nut I kinda lost interest after the first 100. Saw a '52, think it was the oldest there, certainly the oldest I've ever seen. And the variety of customs was amazing.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I love the Montreal---wish I had the courage to own one. Couldn't be a worse maintenance challenge than a Porsche 928, right? RIGHT?!! :surprise:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I'd bet the 928 is like a Corolla compared to the Montreal in terms of both ease of care, and durability.

    This morning saw a lovely 68-69 Skylark 2 door HT, not a GS or anything (I think it had a "sport" badge), obviously restored, silver on black, Buick rally wheels, muted rumble, fairly clean and maybe even classy. Also saw a driver quality 59 Cadillac 2 door HT, incorrect whitewalls, shade of red that might not be stock.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Went to look at a lovely 1955 Chrysler Newport St. Regis 2DHT for a client. a solid #2 car (local show quality) with maybe 5-8 points in deducts for various blemishes and non-stock "cherry bomb" mufflers.

    The St. Regis was an upscale Newport with leather interior, two tone paint and real wire wheels.

    The car drove extremely well considering it was a 2-speed automatic in those days. Easily cruised down the freeway at 65 mph. The 331 Hemi puts out decent power---I love that little dashboard lever for the transmission---the only year they did that. In '56 you got pushbuttons.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Although I'm not certain, I think the Newport and St. Regis had the cheaper "polyspheric" engine for '55, similar to the Plymouth and Dodge V8s. If I'm correct, the 331 hemi went into the New Yorker and Imperial that year, but not the lesser Chryslers. Maybe you could order the hemi as an upgrade on the Newports, but probably not.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well the Cars & Parts Catalog of American Car ID numbers says that an engine stamped "NE55 - XXXXX" is a C68 engine code and therefore a 331. Also, the engine on this car had the spark plugs running in the center of the valve cover, if that means anything.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    edited April 2012
    I think what you drove, Shifty, was actually a New Yorker Deluxe St. Regis hardtop coupe. That one would have had the 331 Hemi.

    In those days, Chrysler and many others tacked on an additional name to denote the hardtop.

    The cheaper Windsor Deluxe lineup had two hardtop coupes in '55...the cheaper Nassau and the nicer Newport. That's also the one that used the 301 CID poly-head V-8, which had a 2-bbl carb and 188 hp. The poly head can be identified by sort of a sawtooth edge to the outer part of the valve cover.

    The pricier New Yorker Deluxe, which had the 331 Hemi and, I think, 250 hp from a 4-bbl carb, also offered two hardtop coupes...Newport and the pricier St. Regis.

    You'd think with names like New Yorker Deluxe and Windsor Deluxe, there should be just a plain old New Yorker and Windsor that year, but that wasn't the case. In earlier years, they'd offer both, but for '55 I guess they figured by calling them all "Deluxe", the public would be fooled into thinking they were getting better cars. For '56, they simplified it to just Windsor and New Yorker.

    They brought the Nassau, Newport, and St. Regis hardtop names back again for 1956, but dropped them in 1957.

    **Edit: just re-read your post, where you mentioned the leather interior and wire wheels. Yeah, that was definitely a New Yorker, with the 331 Hemi. Windsors had somewhat cheap interiors by then. While you might have been able to order wire wheels on a Windsor, I seriously doubt any of them ever ended up with a leather interior!
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I always thought the 55/56 Mopars were nice looking cars, but got overshadowed by the nice stuff GM had out then. I prefer the looks of the 55 Dodge, Plymouth and DeSoto, but thought for 56 that Chrysler was the best looking of them. Still hard to pass up a 55 or 56 Buick or Olds though.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Saw a silver with black stripes 70 Chevelle this morning, nice to pair with the Buick I saw yesterday.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Saw an MGA Coupe---pretty rare--looked to be in fine shape. You have to be pretty small to fit in one of those

    '56 Buick Roadmaster 4D HT -- paint not bad, chrome a bit tatty, running full bore down the road, sign in window for $5000 bucks.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I always felt that GM 55/56 cars put out some of the best and cleanest 4d HT vehicle designs. They still look classic today and I always thought the Buick and Olds were the nicest.
  • bhill2bhill2 Member Posts: 2,596
    It strikes me that if it could run full bore down the road, $5000 isn't a bad price. Not so?

    2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    it is a good price actually, but doing the chrome work on that car would be staggering in cost these days. When you see one of those 50s "chromey classics" will all exterior and interior chrome pretty much wiped out or missing, you are facing costs that could easily exceed an entire professional paint job.

    So add up cost of a paint job + the chrome work, and $5000 doesn't look as good as it did; however, if you just want to drive it and never have a chance at one of those $10 plastic trophies you get at auto shows, well then .....!!
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I'd go nuts on that '56 Buick as everything would have to be absolutely perfect. I could see that initial $5K purchase price quadrupling by the time I got done with it. By the way, Danbury Mint made an absolutely stunning replica of the 1956 Buick Roadmaster 4-door hardtop. Unfortunately, they're all sold out. Dang! Why did I put it off?
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Paint and chrome costs are staggering these days and that is an understatement.

    Assuming there is zero body work to be done, it is very easy to spend 4000.00 for a decent (not show quality) paint job.

    Chrome? a guy I know has a 1953 Mercury Convertable in the restoration shop where it's been for at least three years. He sends the guy anywhere from 1000.00 to 4000.00 every month to pay as he go's.

    The last time I talked to him he had nearly 100,000 invested and it's nowhere near done. I think the chrome work was in excess of 25,000.

    I think I would drive that 56 Buick the way it is!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    What you're paying for in a paint job is a) labor and b) quality of materials

    So if you want a cheap paint job, you'll have to skimp on one or both, and both those economies will come back to haunt you.

    I examine "classic" cars with new paint jobs all the time. I rarely see a paint job that I'd even want on my MINI, much less a classic. Orange peel, overspray, wavy bodywork, misaligned doors and trunk lids, blisters, fish eyes, stress cracks, drips, curtains, dry-spray, file marks, etc.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Without mentioning any names, the low price "chains" that advertise 199.00 paint jobs can REALLY kill the value of a car.

    The quality jobs involving removing all of the glass, bumpers, grill and anything else that can detach. Hours and hours of prep work and a painter who really knows what he is doing. I know for a fact that a lot of body shops
    really don't find these jobs to be very desirable or profitable even when they charge 4-5000.00!
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Without mentioning any names, the low price "chains" that advertise 199.00 paint jobs can REALLY kill the value of a car.


    Back in 1990, my neighbor helped me repaint my '69 Dart GT, in its original cream color. He sent me to a local paint shop, and told me all the stuff to get...primer, the cream paint itself, some additives to go in it, etc. Just the paint and stuff was $120, and that was 22 years ago! So I shudder to think what kind of crap paintjob you'd get nowadays for $199!

    I ended up pulling as much of the trim and stuff as I could off of the car. Grille, headlight trim, taillights, the "GT" trunk panel, the blackout strip that ran down the beltline, antenna, wheel well trim, etc. Didn't go so far as to pull out the window glass or bumpers, though.

    I also did a lot of prep work on that car myself, with a lot of sanding and such. Being a poor college student though, I'll confess that I learned the fine art of Bondo. :blush:

    All things considered, it turned out pretty good.

    Also, another thing I remember, was my neighbor telling me, after it was painted, to put it in the garage and let it cure for about a week, before putting anything back on it, driving it, etc. I can't imagine any quikie paint shop doing something that took that much time!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Saw what I guess was an 83-85 Eldo convertible conversion today, and an immaculate looking kind of bronze MB W116.
  • bhill2bhill2 Member Posts: 2,596
    an immaculate looking kind of bronze MB W116

    I think that's the same color as my W126. MB called it 'Champagne'. I don't know; maybe German Champagne is actually that color.

    2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    edited April 2012
    Champagne was very big throughout the W126 era, along with "palomino" interiors. I prefer the light metallic blue that was offered, and my W126 was the "diamond blue" variant". A diamond blue on creme car would be exceptional to me.

    That champagne color is a little lighter than the 70s era car I saw. What I saw Was very much like this but maybe a little more gold to it (or it was just the light). Very period correct.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Today saw a very clean 85-86 Camry with an open moonroof, and an Aston DB7.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,946
    Speaking of Camrys saw two 92 style XLE V6s. I see those all the time, just almost always a plain jane LE. That style still looks great to me, hard to believe its 20 years old.

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic

  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    I agree, the '92+ Camry was kind of a 'breakthrough' car, one big enough for 90% of Americans to consider when it came time to buy a sedan. Also, it was in my opinion the best looking car in that segment, clean lines, purposeful. The Accord, while a great car, was a bit on the small side in comparison. And of course the bullet-proof reliability reputation that Toyota had developed by '92 made the Camry an easy choice. My sister is still using my dad's '96, and we're still using our '96 ES300 Camry derivative. Great cars.
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