I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

stickguy

pretty sad that a 455 GP couldn't even beat any of the subcompacts that CR tested this month. That big beast getting smoked by an AT Accent?

stickguy

driving around town this afternoon.

first a new looking (bright red paint) 68 I think GTO. looked brand new, but shinier. Convertible with a white top.

later, a 70ish Dodge dart. 2 door, probably a GT (had nostril hood). didn't get too close, but seemed OK shape but from from restored looking.

omarman

Well-kept looking, all black '68 Cadillac Series 75 limousine with black vinyl top and landau bars. Something strange about that roof though. Looked like the vinyl roof was extended to cover the rear quarter windows and then there were those landau bars...

tjc78

1980ish Toyota Corolla in yellow in remarkable shape.

wevk

It appears the the 1962 full size Pontiacs offered 10 different HP versions
of the 389 V8:
http://storm.oldcarmanualproject.com/pontiac/1962/p62%2026&27-v.jpg

bhill2

Now THAT'S what I was talking about! I miss the good (in some ways) old days.

fintail

70s day here - Datsun 810 wagon, 75-76 Caprice woody, 71 or so Mach I, nice red Karmann-Ghia, and topped it off with a lowline 67 Mustang. And an early chrome bumper Rolls Shadow just drove by, black and shiny, looked very well cared for.

uplanderguy

Now THAT'S what I was talking about! I miss the good (in some ways) old days.

Me, too. You could truly custom-tailor a car then, and never, ever see an exact duplicate of your car. Now, there'll be two exact duplicates sitting next to each other on a new car lot.

Someone on a GM forum here, obviously younger, tried to tell me that there really weren't more choices than then now. All I can say is, he obviously wasn't there then.

tjc78

It's not even close. There may be more things available, but no where near the amount of choices. Aside from full size trucks find me something you could actually choose which axle ratio you want? Just like modern housing developments every thing is cookie cutter.

jljac

Aside from full size trucks find me something you could actually choose which axle ratio you want? Just like modern housing developments every thing is cookie cutter.

In defense of the new cars, modern automatic transmissions, which have four speeds or more have eliminated the need for so many different final drive ratios because you can have both low end performance and economical cruising speeds.

I wish I could lock out the free wheeling so that the engine slowed the car in city traffic so I do not have to replace the brakes as much. I liked that flexibility in the old borg warner overdrive transmissions (used in Studebakers) where you could choose between city and rural driving conditions.

andys120

I wish I could lock out the free wheeling so that the engine slowed the car in city traffic so I do not have to replace the brakes as much.

Shifting down to a lower gear will create engine braking very nicely.

robr2

I wish I could lock out the free wheeling so that the engine slowed the car in city traffic so I do not have to replace the brakes as much.

But I'm sure the increased fuel used will cost more than a set of pads.

andre1969

In defense of the new cars, modern automatic transmissions, which have four speeds or more have eliminated the need for so many different final drive ratios because you can have both low end performance and economical cruising speeds

That's certainly true. Pontiac in the 60's was actually one of the first brands to somewhat strike a balance between performance and economy, with the combination of a big engine and tall axle. When Consumer Reports used to test their low-priced big cars, they'd usually pit a Catalina, Impala, Galaxie, and Fury against each other. The Catalina would almost always outrun the other three in acceleration, AND return better fuel economy!

However, Pontiac was actually using a somewhat "modern" drivetrain formula, in that it used a 4-speed automatic, at least until 1965 when they switched to the THM400, whereas the Mopar would've used a 3-speed and Ford and Chevy were actually stuck with 2-speeds for awhile. Once the Turboglide went away after '61, I don't think they offered a smallblock with a 3-speed until the THM350 came out around 1969. I always forget Ford's transmission history, but I'm sure they went with 3-speeds all the way on the big cars by around 1964 or so?

As the cars started getting heavier and requiring more emissions controls though, Pontiac started losing its edge. Pontiac engines tended to run cool (although oddly, the three I've owned always ran hot and two of 'em have overheated ) and when forced to deal with emissions controls that made them run hotter, fuel economy and performance tended to suffer.

Throughout the 60's, the Catalina with the normal 389 or 400-2bbl (not the low compression economy versions) tended to do 0-60 in around 10 seconds, while I remember an '68 Impala with a 307 turning in a pathetic 14.5 seconds, in Consumer Reports testing.

But, by '72, the tables had turned. CR tested an Impala with a 165 hp 350, and a Catalina with a 400 that had around 170-175 hp. The Impala came in at 12 seconds, the Catailna at 12.5. That 60's mantra of the divisions trying to be all things to all people was starting to backfire, and suddenly there was little, if any reason for choosing a Catalina over an Impala.

omarman

Just curious Andre, do any of your old car books list an optional 1972 Pontiac 455 with engine code YH? Saw a pic online of a 1972 Catalina with the owner describing its original YH code 455 with a stock 2 bbl carb. Never heard of it before. :confuse:

wevk

This is new to me:

1970-1972 Chevrolet Nova

"The standard transmission was the column-mounted three-speed manual. There were two optional transmissions: the Torque Drive and Powerglide. The Torque Drive is little known and very rare. This transmission is a manually shifted two-speed "semi-automatic;" it has a torque converter, yet it is shifted manually."

jljac

I wish I could lock out the free wheeling so that the engine slowed the car in city traffic so I do not have to replace the brakes as much.

But I'm sure the increased fuel used will cost more than a set of pads.

I don't believe that engine braking increases fuel consumption. When you take your foot off the gas and let the engine slow the car, very little fuel is being used because it is in an idle mode of operation.

Mr_Shiftright

Honda Civic had a similar arrangement.

uplanderguy

The Torque-Drive was advertised as 'low-cost clutchless driving' and was also available in 1971-72 Vegas. Also optional on Novas of that period was the 3-speed synchromesh trans with floor-mounted shift lever (a $26 option). Our '73 Nova had the optional floorshift 3-speed.

bhill2

The Torque-Drive was advertised as 'low-cost clutchless driving' and was also available in 1971-72 Vegas.

I understand that a semi-automatic (3 speed in this case) was available in early (e.g. '69) Mavericks. Also very rare.

berri

That's interesting. I knew VW had something like that back then and I think AMC did too, at least on the Rambler American. However, I had thought that for D3 it was a relic last seen in the first part of the 50's. Not sure what its appeal would have been in the seventies since by then automatics were pretty much refined and basically fairly reliable.

andre1969

My Consumer Guide classic car book doesn't go so detailed as to list engine codes, but for 1972 it does list a 455 with 185 hp, as being standard in the Bonneville/Grand Ville, and the Grand Safari wagon. Optional on the Catalina.

185 hp is awfully doggy for something of that displacement, even in the 70's, so I'd imagine that one has a 2-bbl carb. The book also lists a 455 with 220 hp, 230, 250, and 300.

I have an old "Motor's" repair manual out in the garage somewhere that would list more detail. I'll try to dig it out sometime. It might even list engine codes.

I think Pontiac, Olds, and Buick all offered 2-bbl engines on their 455s Buick and Olds almost had to, because they didn't have an intermediate engine between the 350s and the 455s I think Pontiac got rid of their 455 2-bbl after awhile, because they at least had their 400 to depend on.

I don't think Chevy ever did offer a 2-bbl of the 454, although there was a 2-bbl 396 for a few years.

andre1969

I'd never heard of the Torque Drive, but here it is, listed in the 1971 Nova brochure.

Looks like the Torque-drive was only offered with the 250-6, while the Powerglide was offered on the 6 or 307, and the THM350 was used on the 307 and 350.

ab348

I know that Olds made hay with the "Turnpike Cruiser" option which offered a 2-bbl version on their big 400 and 455 V-8s. Olds also offered a variation in 1970 with the Cutlass SX, which was a Cutlass Supreme with the 455-2bbl engine, at least originally. Some time into the production cycle they switched it over to the 455-4bbl.

berri

Hmm...a 350 with a three on the tree would have been interesting!

berri

"Turnpike Cruiser"

I believe you, but for me "Turnpike Cruiser" will always be a Flash Gordon like 57/58 Merc with antenna's sticking out the front corners of the windshield!

lemko

The stylists at Ford nickname that car the "Turnip Crusher."

ab348

Here is an excellent article about the Olds Turnpike Cruiser, with a side reference to the aforementioned Pontiac efforts as well.

fintail

BMW Z8 just drove by my window.

Had both of my obscure cars out yesterday...nobody waved me over in the fintail (but it ran sweetly in the warm weather), while topping off the modern car, a guy beside me at the station was very interested in it.

au1994

A late 80's Accord, the pop up headlight generation...but this one was the hatchback model. I haven't seen one of those in years. Appropriately beat up for its age and when he stopped beside me at a light the dashboard was lit up like a Christmas tree with warning lights.

tjc78

the pop up headlight generation

My Stepbrother had and 87 LXi for his first car. I really, really hated that car. It was so buzzy and low to the ground. Of course I was driving an 89 Grand Marquis at the time so all is relative.

tjc78

nobody waved me over in the fintail (but it ran sweetly in the warm weather),

Does your Fintail have A/C?

fintail

Nope. No fintails had it from the factory - all dealer installed. Years ago I could have bought a parts car with a complete Kuhlmeister (no kidding) setup, but I was in school and had no place to put it. Luckily, it's rarely warm enough to really *need* it here...the "warm" weather here for April was 70F.

Mr_Shiftright

My Fintail had AC, and it worked pretty well as I recall, but it was certainly a drag on the engine. The Fintail, especially the one with carbs, doesn't have that much power to spare.

If I had to do all over again, I'd install an AC unit from a Mazda RX-7 or some such---very compact unit.

tjc78

No fintails had it from the factory

I didn't know that. Living in the northeast, if I ever get an older car A/C is a must. Its just too darn humid and I'm a sissy about that

tjc78

but it was certainly a drag on the engine

My 79 Continental had the giant Fridgidaire compressor and even with the 400 V8 I could feel it engaging. I've never experienced better A/C in any other car I've owned.

fintail

I don't believe MB had an integrated AC system until around 1972 - before that, all under dash systems, although I think they were factory installed by maybe 1969. It was a different company then - no in-house automatic until around 1963, and ideas like power windows or power seats in a fintail simply didn't exist.

Humidity is rare here, even in the modern car, I seldom use AC unless it is around 80F or more....although I did run it a little on Sunday just to make sure it still worked.

fintail

That would be the way to go - updated mechanicals, using an old Kuhlmeister under dash unit, which can still be picked up for a few hundred bucks. I have no desire - not hot here, it's just one more thing to break, and as you say, it's not like I have a lot of surplus power, even in my SE car.

fintail

Saw the same Vega wagon today that I have seen a few times in the past. Could someone be commuting in it?

Forgot to mention on Sunday I saw the pristine white 560SEC that I have seen a few times, driven by an old lady who sits with the seat insanely far forward - if the crashes and the airbag deploys, she's dead. Also at night saw an old Audi 5000 coupe made into a period rally car tribute - I don't know if it was a Quattro or not, but it was very loud, and likely not street legal.

andys120

I spotted a '62 Plymouth H/T pulling out of a strip mall. It looked to be in perfect shpe, probably a Belvedere or Fury (did they make Savoy H/Ts?). It was still stultifyingly ugly.

texases

...not in great shape, unfortuanately. A sedan, driving, but tired paint and lots of rust. Repair $ >>> car value, I imagine.

Mr_Shiftright

...to help him appraise a 2003 Bentley Arnage T with 30,000 miles. Nice car in need of a major service.

We concluded about $50,000 was all the money.

MSRP in 2003 was about $230,000.

So, $180K depreciation in 9 years....that's pretty rough.

The dealer offered $38K in a trade-in. :surprise:

But you know....still a *NICE* car.

fintail

Sounds right. Last year, a local high end dealer had a 2000 model with something like 50K on it, amazing looking thing white with tan interior, pristine, had to be up to date on servicing, for 43K. It sat around for months.

Today's oddballs - same Datsun 810 wagon from last week, early 70s 911, ca. 1973 Plymouth GTX, ca. 2002 Audi S8.

hpmctorque

That's $6 per mile in depreciation. Don't know if that sounds worse than $20,000 per year. Either way, if you're shocked by what it costs, it means you shouldn't think about owning one.

Shifty, what do you estimate the "major service" would cost? Also, how much would it cost per year in maintenance and repairs if you bought that Arnage T for $50,000, and drove it another 30,000 miles over the next three years? Finally, what would it be worth when it's 12 years old with, say, 60,000 miles?

oldbearcat

I was running around my county for work today and spotted a bunch of stuff:

- Guy pulling out of a McD's in a 1936 or 37 Packard Roadster that had been rodded.
- A nice 70 Camaro on the interstate
- A nice 80's vintage Firebird that looked mint.
- and, in one of small towns I went through. Went by a old house with a large garage building next to it. Sitting in the yard was a late 40's fastback Cadillac, a early 50's Chevy, a 40's vintage bus, and, another 40's vintage car I couldn't identify. All the vehicles were in rough shape, but, appeared to be restorable.

Regards:
Oldbearcat

Mr_Shiftright

My Bentley source tells me that a full service at 30K, to bring the entire car up to factory snuff, would be about $10,000. This presume brake work as well on such a heavy fast car.

robr2

Really?? Think the local VW dealer could do it for about $2K?

Mr_Shiftright

I doubt that a VW dealer's service manager would allow it but they might do an oil change and things like that (13 quarts of synthetic !!)

fintail

Geez, and I thought the E55 was bad with 8 quarts, or the fintail with something like 7 (no synthetic for it though, the car would probably vomit and die).

kyfdx

My puny little 3.0 litre engine takes 7 quarts...

andre1969

I think the Buick 3.8 V-6 only takes 4 quarts, rather than the more common 5. Maybe that's one reason why those engines used to fry up so easily, before they revised 'em in 1985?