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I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

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Comments

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I don't like anything "phony" on a car. If it has air vents, it should cool something. If there's a hump in the trunk, there should actually be a spare tire under it. Landau bars should fold down. As for pillow seats--that's the driver's choice--he's the one who has to sit in them.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    So, I guess you don't like the "portholes" on old Buicks?

    I think the proper term was "Ventiports" although they didn't "vent" anything.

    Still, I can't imagine an old Buick without them!
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,950
    I could do without the fake ports on the hood of my LaCrosse, but that is a completely different thing than the classic Buicks. I like them on the old cars.

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  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,574
    Funny... saw one this afternoon..

    Pale yellow.. '65 or '66?

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think originally the venti-ports did actually work. Once they started faking things, you ended up with the 1958 Buick--the 'birthday cake' of cars.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,344
    a '63ish Olds full size 2-door. looked all original. faded paint and tired, but sound.

    and about 2 houses away, another original condition looking '69 Camaro, in the nice dark (hunter?) green, with black vinyl roof.

    and on the road, a late 60's ford convertible. Maybe a fairlane? Was badged as a GT. very nice condition.

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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    edited May 2012
    More small town sightings: blue Pacer, Subaru SVX, immaculate early Taurus, 64-65 Falcon convertible, AMC Eagle hatchback, 61 Impala bubbletop, angular Tercel 4x4 wagon, unmolested late 80s Corolla GTS, pristine looking powder blue Fairmont Futura .
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Sounds like you were at the Triple X in Issaquah!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I'm down in SW WA - the land time forgot.

    Just saw a real doozie - first gen RX7 with no hood. It was missing its hood because it now contained what I guess was a small block Chevy engine.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,950
    immaculate early Taurus

    I wonder if some day the very first 86 Taurus models will be worth something. It really was a game changer. We were watching a movie the other night probably shot in late 86/87 and the main character was driving a Taurus "L" model (base) and it just made just about every other car look old.

    image

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  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I think originally the venti-ports did actually work. Once they started faking things, you ended up with the 1958 Buick--the 'birthday cake' of cars.

    In a strange twist of fate, 1958 was the year they took the ventiports off of the Buicks! IIRC they were gone in '59 as well, but returned for the much-cleaned-up '60.

    Originally, they wanted to put a light in each one of those ventiports, and have it light up when the cylinder fired. So, their intentions weren't exactly high-class in the beginning, either.

    As for those 70's vents, on my 5th Ave they're fake as can be, although I think they look good on the car. I do remember looking at some Ford product from that era that had them though, and they actually did have a hole behind them. Can't remember if it actually vented into the engine bay or the wheel well, though. And, it's questionable as to whether that actually did anything other than allow a place for moisture and debris to collect.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Value of 86 Taurus: -- Not even after the sun burns out. You can still buy a running 90-year old Model T Ford for $4,000, so if you want to store that '86 Taurus until 2076 and "cash in"--have at it. :P

    RE: Lit-up ventiports ---now THERE is a bit of Detroit frivolity I would have supported!
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,950
    Not even after the sun burns out

    You are most likely right. To me it just seems that it has some significance, but they made so many, that its not like it is going to be rare even in the next 40 years.

    It seems to be that the only car out of the eighties worth squat is a Grand National.

    Just saw a 59 Impala out and about. It looked beat to death, but complete and I was doing 75 and he blew right by me. I caught up at the exit ramp, to get a good look at the rear of it. Over the top, I would think.

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  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    When I was very young, a "old man" drove a 1955 Buick Roadmaster around town that he had installed yellow lights into the ventiports.

    These didn't flash but I remember thinking that they looked cool at the time.
  • jljacjljac Member Posts: 649
    edited May 2012
    My girlfriend's mother still has her 1986 Taurus with a bench seat in front and the transmission shift on the column. Those features are the main reason she bought it. It is low mileage and she always drove it slowly. It was and is a dependable car. If anyone near Los Angeles wants to buy this future collectible, contact me. (I liked the Mercury Sable more).

    It was always a mystery to me why Ford never built a two-door model. I might have bought a second generation Taurus if they sold that model. I remember seeing two door bodies in NASCAR racing and wondering why I could not actually buy one that looked like those.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Its "significance" seems to have grown pale over the years. It's more like a "negative" significance, like saying "and this was the only ship we launched that did not sink immediately".

    Faint praise in other words.
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,283
    I remember thinking of them at launch as the North American take on the Audi 5000, which we tend to forget was quite the cutting edge design when it was introduced. Of course the Taurus/Sable was a paragon of dependability and quality in comparison to that car.

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    I remember making the 'Audi' connection when I first saw a Taurus, myself. I rented an early one and was surprised how roomy the back seat was. The only negative I can see with all these years' hindsight, is that the car probably started the 'anonymous jellybean' style that we carry right through to this day. First domestic car I can remember, too, that came with silver wheels and silver painted hub caps instead of bright metal.
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  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    edited May 2012
    I think you may be remembering the Taurus as being a better car than they were although almost ANYTHING is more reliable than an Audi.

    The 3.0 engines were pretty good. The 3.8's were known for head gasket problems and all of them quickly broke their front motor mount.

    Transmissions were so so and were usually good to around 100,000 miles.

    Not bad cars but nothing remarkable. The rental car companies LOVED them!
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    " It was always a mystery to me why Ford never built a two door model"

    I'll help you solve this mystery...two doors don't sell very well!

    Ever see a Camry coupe? Yep, they did make a few some years and they crashed and burned in the market.

    Honda still builds Accord Coupes and it's a rare day when one get's sold.

    Just a dead market especially compared to the "old" days!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Yeah, like Shifty says, too common to attract value, not to mention not cool or sporty. It is a very significant car from a domestic design standpoint, but that doesn't make value.

    My uncle had an early 86 Taurus L, I remember it had the frisbee hubcaps (as I called them), a cool blue backlit clock, and unusual interior fabric, it was a low pile cloth, kind of like a vintage car broadcloth. It seemed like a very nice car at the time even though it was a low model.

    Drove back to the first world this morning, saw a few oddities - Vanagon Syncro, nice W123, hotrod 34 or so Dodge sedan pulling a small travel trailer, silver Mercury Marauder (the ~2003 type), And this exact car on 405 going a little slow. Can't be many green 48-49 Caddy convertibles out there, had to be the same one.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I'll help you solve this mystery...two doors don't sell very well!

    Ever see a Camry coupe? Yep, they did make a few some years and they crashed and burned in the market.


    Ironically, I saw a Camry coupe just yesterday, in DC. It was a '92-94 model judging from the taillights that went all the way across. It was pretty ragged out, smoking and stinking, and whatever paint wasn't faded had long since peeled away.

    As for the Taurus, 2-doors were still selling pretty well in 1986, but by that time the intermediate market had fragmented a bit. People still wanted their coupes, but they wanted their coupes to be personal luxury models like T-birds, Cougars, Monte Carlos, Cutlass Supremes, and Regals. Not so much the Grand Prix, though. When it was restyled for 1981, it sold fairly well given the recession, but then sales fell off fast.

    The more plebian, mainstream intermediate coupes started dying off in 1981. That year, GM axed the Century and Cutlass Salon coupe For 1982, the Malibu coupe was dropped, and when the LeMans morphed into the Bonneville G, the coupe was dropped as well.

    GM did this in part to make way for the Celebrity/6000/Century/Cutlass Ciera 2-doors, but they really weren't huge sellers. For instance, in the Malibu coupe's final year, 1981, they sold about 40,000 coupes. The Celebrity coupe, even in its heyday, never beat that total.

    Ford's last year for "mainstream" 2-doors was 1982, when they offered a 2-door Granada and Cougar, cars based on the Fairmont by that time, but being marketed as midsizers. When the "small" LTD/Marquis debuted for 1983, there was no coupe. They probably did that in part so that it wouldn't compete too much with the new aero '83 B-bird/Cougar.

    The Fairmont still offered 2-door models in its final 1983 year, but to show how much that market shrunk, the upright 2-door sean only sold 3,664 units, while the sleeker sport coupe, the one with the basket handle roof, sold 7,882. But the 4-door sedans sold 69,287.

    Chrysler bailed on its M-body LeBaron/Diplomat coupes (and wagons) after 1981. For '82, the LeBaron became the New Yorker, but it was only offered as a 4-door. Chrysler went one step further and left the personal luxury coupe market after 1983, when the Cordoba/Mirada and Imperial were dropped.

    Personal luxury coupes still did fairly well through the 80's, but in the '90's they started to die out. The Regal coupe's last year was 1996, I believe. The Cutlass Supreme lasted through 1997, which was also the last year for the T-bird/Cougar and, I'd imagine, the Mark VIII. The Riviera's last year was 1999. I think the Eldorado's final year was 2002? Grand Prix played out its last act in 2003, and the Monte Carlo in 2007 I believe.

    So nowadays, if you want something even remotely resembling a big car, I think the Honda Accord or Toyota Solara is about it.

    I saw an Audi coupe today. A5 or A7 or something like that? Sharp looking car, IMO. I imagine they don't sell many of those either, though.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    edited May 2012
    In grade school, I had a teacher who had a Pontiac 6000 coupe. That has to be pretty much extinct now.

    Solara has been gone for a few years, I think. There is the Altima coupe which nobody buys, to fill the gap along with the Accord which sells little. Large coupes are pretty dead. The Audi A/S5 is nice looking, not the biggest thing in size or sales (but lots of em in my area.

    MB has kept a medium and large coupe around for a long time, but they aren't priced as mass market items. BMW has an expensive large coupe too that kind of slots in between the medium and large MB models.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,344
    it seems that the 4 door coupes (ala the CLS MB) fill that niche now. People that don't really need a back seat much, but want the coupe style.

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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    That's the trend...CLS was a home run - low slung E-class with a 50% markup, now BMW has something similar, Audi kind of apes it with "sportback" design, and Hyundai seems to have been won over too.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    MB has kept a medium and large coupe around for a long time, but they aren't priced as mass market items.

    Oh yeah, that's right, how could I have forgotten MB...I think they're the only ones still offering their coupes as true hardtops, as well!
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I think you may be remembering the Taurus as being a better car than they were although almost ANYTHING is more reliable than an Audi.

    I think that's because at the time, the Taurus seemed so much more advanced than anything in its class at the time. The Japanese hadn't graduated to anything resembling a midsized car yet, and for the most part they were still pretty angular and boxy. So that pretty much left the Taurus's competition as whatever GM and Chrysler were offering.

    My grandparents had a 1989 Taurus LX with the 3.8 V-6. They had an '85 LTD before that, and the Taurus made the LTD seem positively ancient. It handled better, was faster, and the interior seemed like it should be the poster child for ergonomic efficiency.

    I remember the car got wrecked within a year, when Grandmom was driving Granddad to the foot doctor, and a woman in a 1974 Catalina swerved out of her lane, sideswiped the Taurus, and pushed it into a telephone pole, resulting in about $6,000 worth of damage. They had an '89 Century rental for about a month, until the Taurus was fixed, and that thing just seemed an ergonomic mess compared to the Taurus.

    They only had that Taurus for about 5 years, from late '88 to late '93, when they traded on a '94 GL, which just had the 3.0 V-6. The '89 probably only had around 30-40,000 miles on it, so they really didn't keep it long enough for to kill the transmission or engine. Still, I seem to remember it overheating once, and leaking coolant a couple times. And I think it stalled out once or twice, something more associated with old carbureted cars that are out of tune, rather than a modern, FI vehicle.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,950
    the Taurus seemed so much more advanced than anything in its class at the time.

    Absolutely. It was one of the first cars with nice big round HVAC knobs, multifunction turn switch, wiper, high beam. Steering wheel cruise (OK, Ford had that for a while). Many had the door mounted keyless entry pad too.

    It also spawned a look that continues today. Full wrap around body color painted bumpers, composite headlights, etc

    Like it or not, the 86 Taurus changed the mid-size market completely. The shame of it was that they didn't prove to be ultra-reliable and built to a super high standard. The 4cyl models were also painfully slow and coarse, the 3.0 was the best bet, and as Isell mentioned the 3.8 popped head gaskets (enough for Ford to secretly extend the warranty on them).

    Once the 92 Camry was introduced the Taurus started to show all its flaws and Ford started dumping them into fleets. It was nowhere but downhill after that.

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Taurus definitely had an effect on the domestic market styling but I don't think the Europeans paid much attention at all---the BMW 3 series has become the defining mid-size car that everyone copies now and Audi became the styling leader of the 90s with the "roof arc" we still see today.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Every model year since 1961, and most of the time two distinct hardtop models. They also never lost the convertible either.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Once the 92 Camry was introduced the Taurus started to show all its flaws and Ford started dumping them into fleets. It was nowhere but downhill after that.

    My grandparents' '94 Taurus had more of a generic, wallflower feel to it than their '89 did. I thought the 92-95 refresh was sort of a mixed bag. On one hand, I thought it was a bit better proportioned, with smaller headlights and just a smoother style overall. But, the interior seemed more choppy, and the overall car just seemed so much less radical.

    But, by 1994 the car had been on the market for 8 years, with just one restyle, so maybe it was just getting old, and the competition was passing it by. In a similar vein, I remember my Mom's '80 Malibu coupe seeming so modern when she bought it, but by the time she gave it to me in 1987, it just felt like an old car. I actually went through a phase where I wanted something newer like a Celebrity, but in retrospect, I'm glad I didn't go that route.

    I always thought the 1989 Maxima was a valiant effort. But, I guess it was (and is) too upscale to be considered a bread-and-butter, mainstream car.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    the BMW 3 series has become the defining mid-size car

    AFAIK, the 3 series has never been a mid-size car. IIRC, it's grown from sub-compact to compact over the past 20 years.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    BMW definitely qualifies as mid-size at least these days, with a wheelbase of 110 inches. One definition of mid-size is wheelbase between 105 and 110 inches.

    But you're right, in the "old days", the 325 was more of a compact car. I never remember it as a sub-compact though.

    Even in 1995 the 3-series qualifies as mid-size (barely), with a 105 inch wheelbase.

    In 1990 however, it was only 101 inches, so a "compact" at that time.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    edited May 2012
    It really turned the domestic design standard on its ear - but the overall theme came from Ford of Europe (which also influenced the aero Bird and Tempo). Ford Sierra, 1982:

    image

    Ford Scorpio, 1985:

    image

    Definitely some design DNA and design personnel in common with these and the Taurus. It's still hard to imagine how alien the shape must have looked in a land of Celebrities, LTDs, and K-cars. Especially the Taurus wagon, which was like a spaceship.

    Audi was an influence too - Audi 100 (5000), 1982:

    image

    More radical IMO was the 100 Avant, I still remember when I first saw one of these, it seemed futuristic to my grade school aged eyes:

    image

    Not too ancient looking for approaching 30 years old, just as a 26 year old Taurus doesn't really look like a car that in some areas can wear "collector" plates.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Taurus abolished the American "3-box" design that domestic automakers were using since 1955. In the mid 1980s, American design went "global" for the first time--or at least moved towards that. Prior to that every american car was one BIG box in the middle and two smaller boxes, one on each end.

    A few exceptions of course, usually bad. (Marlin?)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I think the US had overall design leadership up until maybe the very dawn of the 70s. Then the Euros seemed a decade ahead. Global design saved the day...I shudder to think what a 2013 Ford Elite would look like :shades:
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    At the time the original Taurus came out, I thought of it as a cheap, generic, domestic imitation of an Audi 5000. That probably wasn't completely fair. But even with that description, it was still a huge improvement over the other domestic offerings.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,950
    The cars you posted certainly had to have influence on the Taurus. Lots of common themes there. The Sierra also closely resembles the Tempo as well.

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The Devolution of Style

    Not Bad:

    image

    Worse:

    image

    More Worser: :P

    image
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    BMW definitely qualifies as mid-size at least these days, with a wheelbase of 110 inches. One definition of mid-size is wheelbase between 105 and 110 inches.

    I usually go by the window sticker on the car. Last time I looked, the BMW was still a compact. Anyone know what it is now?

    Here is a photo of window sticker from a 3 series coupe: it's listed as a subcompact.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,950
    I believe that it goes by interior volume these days.

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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    edited May 2012
    I think the Sierra and Tempo must have been part of a multi-market project, somewhat like the Mondeo/Contour. Diecast car maker Majorette even sold a toy Sierra in NA, marked as a "Tempo" underneath.

    I can only imagine how the aero Bird caught people off guard in the fall of 82, especially alongside the angular small 80-82 Bird. I wonder if there was a lag time before people embraced it - I remember they were popular by 1985-86, just judging by childhood memories of cars in my area. I know in Europe, the Sierra was not accepted for a year or so after introduction, it was just too radical for the time. The larger Taurus-like Scorpio was an instant success, however. And just like in NA, in Europe, these jellybean Ford products made the more angular GM offerings look a generation old, overnight.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    edited May 2012
    Funny thing...I think the 77-79 Bird is better looking than the leviathan pseudo-Lincoln 72-76 Bird. I saw a Youtube video of a 77-79 with T-tops and some kind of special trim, and it was kind of cool in a late 70s way.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,950
    I was going to say the same thing Fintail. I also prefer the look of the Mark V to the IV which makes sense as it shares a lot with the Thunderbird of the era.

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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I like the angularity of the V compared to the barge it replaced, as well. Some of the angular designs of that era worked well, others not so much. I also like the 79-85 Eldo and Seville if they are trimmed tastefully and not all pimped out.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I believe that's right---interior volume---which makes somewhat more sense than wheelbase, since there are cars that look 'big' but aren't inside, or others (like my MINI) that look small but have more leg and shoulder room than some cars much larger in exterior dimension.

    But window sticker jargon aside, a 110-inch wheelbase car is not a sub-compact.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I believe that it goes by interior volume these days

    Yep, that's how the EPA classifies cars. On their website they have interior volumes dating back to 1978. For 1978-83 cars, you have to look at their text files, and there's a link for them at the bottom of the front page on their website.

    The current BMW 3-series is rated as a compact in 4-door form (96 cubic feet of interior volume, 13 cubic feet of trunk) and subcompact in coupe form (something like 88 cubic feet of interior, 11 cubic feet of trunk).

    To be a midsized car, those combined volumes have to be between 110 and 120 cubic feet, so the 3-series 4-door barely misses it.

    FWIW, that 96/13 more or less falls in line with old-school, pre-downsized compacts. A '78 Nova sedan is also rated at 96/13. The Fairmont was 96/17, while the Granada sedan was 93/15. For some reason, the identical Monarch sedan was 93/16. The Aspen/Volare sedans were 98/15.

    Some of those cars, however, might feel more or less roomy than those numbers suggest, depending on how, exactly, they get their volume, and how tall or short the driver is. Some cars have more shoulder room, while others have more legroom, or headroom, and so on. A BMW 3-series probably has a lot more legroom up front than any of those old-school compacts, and is probably more generous in headroom, while coming up short in rear seat legroom.

    Interestingly, some really big cars from the 70's really aren't that big, looking at the interior volumes. The '78 Eldorado and the Mark V are both listed as intermediates! This, despite the fact that the Eldorado was around 226" long and the Mark V was even bigger, at around 230"! But, either one had around 100 cubic feet of passenger volume, and trunks that were maybe 17-18 cubic feet. They had good legroom up front, and shoulder room that would rival some livingroom couches, but not much in the way of headroom. I remember my buddy's Mark V, especially, being really low on the inside. The seat was low to the floor, and there wasn't a lot of headroom. I could fit in the back seat without my knees touching the front, but that was partly because the seat was so low that my legs were pointing upward, rather than straight out.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well it's what the buyer thinks that counts, and he/she probably thinks that they aren't shopping for a compact car when they buy a BMW 335, nor did they think they were buying an intermediate size car when they bought that Lincoln or Eldo.

    Of course it's all relative isn't it? I mean, our perceptions change as the overall size of new cars changes.
  • bhill2bhill2 Member Posts: 2,597
    I think the 77-79 Bird is better looking than the leviathan pseudo-Lincoln 72-76 Bird.

    I will add my support to that. I thought the 72-76 Birds were a bad joke.

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  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Actually, this is the absolutely worst iteration of the Thunderbird!

    image
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