I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

fintail

When I was a little kid, I liked the B210 fastback. I think I saw the styling as kind of racy, and the honeycomb hubcaps caught my eye, I noticed little details like that. I remember my dad had a friend who owned one, and I rode in it - I wasn't especially impressed.

On the other hand, I remember when I was 5 or 6 and I got to ride in a Porsche 911, I was very impressed.

sda

The first gen late '70s Datsun 310 with the bubble glass hatchback was an ugly critter as well. Come to think of it the first gen 200 SX was no beauty queen. After 1980 Datsun improved their styling considerably.

berri

I wonder if this staining thing from jeans means the auto companies are using cheaper quality leather? I believe I might have trouble picking whether some of them are leather or vinyl. A lot of the leather I see these days isn't very soft. Seems stiff and thin compared to a few years back.

fintail

The first 200 SX was pretty bizarre, and never seen anymore even here. I remember when I was in grade school, I knew a kid who's mom had one, and it was odd even then. I have a couple toy ones, and I kind of like them now. That mid 70s Astro Boy Japanese styling didn't age well, but Nissan was making really modern looking stuff by 1983-4 or so.

ab348

sda said:

The first gen late '70s Datsun 310 with the bubble glass hatchback was an ugly critter as well. Come to think of it the first gen 200 SX was no beauty queen. After 1980 Datsun improved their styling considerably.

I forgot (maybe as a subconscious defense mechanism) some of those bizarro-world Datsun designs.

The first-gen 200SX had been erased from my memory banks until now:



I know some automotive writer coined the term "atomic cockroach" for either the B210 or the F10, but I can't recall which. The best feature of any of these 1970s Datsuns was that in our climate up here, the road salt usually had them make their last ride to the wreckers within 5 years of purchase.



^^^ Some owner-added styling upgrades really improved the front end design.

sda

I thought it was an F-10, a weird looking ride!

sda

I forgot the SX 200 had the same shift pattern as my Sunbird with 1st gear located where 2nd is in a standard H pattern.

fintail

Nice hubcaps. Early JDM and maybe Euro B210/120Y had big round tail lights that made it that more odd:

kyfdx

sda said:

I forgot the SX 200 had the same shift pattern as my Sunbird with 1st gear located where 2nd is in a standard H pattern.

"Dog leg" transmission.

Datsun went with it, when they started putting in 5-speeds.

Mr_Shiftright

No, no, on Porsches that was called the "Lemans" transmission. No dogs allowed.

roadburner

BMW used them on some of their hotter models in Europe. The theory was that the driver only used 1st gear when pulling away from a complete stop so the top four gears were located in the "H" pattern.

Michaell

roadburner said:

BMW used them on some of their hotter models in Europe. The theory was that the driver only used 1st gear when pulling away from a complete stop so the top four gears were located in the "H" pattern.

IIRC, it caused James May and others no end of issues on the MB Cosworth they tested.

kyfdx

It's great for rocking back and forth, to get unstuck.

sda

roadburner said:

BMW used them on some of their hotter models in Europe. The theory was that the driver only used 1st gear when pulling away from a complete stop so the top four gears were located in the "H" pattern.

I thought I remembered that shift pattern was used in racing. It wasn't that convenient in stop and go traffic but neither was a standard 3 speed gear shift on the floor or column three on the tree that I had in my first car, '62 Galaxie 2dr sedan.

fintail

I don't remember that the pattern on my dad's 68 Fairlane with a 3 on the tree was anything unusual, but I didn't care for driving it. The car lacking power steering or power brakes didn't help.

The pattern on manual fintails is conventional, I think:



And the automatics are pretty much a PRNDL:

sda

Here is the typical 3 speed shift pattern

https://tse2-2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.SBH591fSrJA62nZdVQUygwEsCU&w=299&h=148&c=7&qlt=90&o=4&dpr=1.5&pid=1.7
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Manual_Layout_3.svg/125px-Manual_Layout_3.svg.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Manual_Layout_3.svg/125px-Manual_Layout_3.svg.png

kyfdx

Every 3-speed I've driven is a straight H-pattern, with R-1 on the left and 3-4 on the right, regardless of column or floor mount.

It's pretty easy to drive, that way.

sda

kyfdx said:

Every 3-speed I've driven is a straight H-pattern, with R-1 on the left and 3-4 on the right, regardless of column or floor mount.

It's pretty easy to drive, that way.

It is easy to drive a 3 speed, however in stop and go traffic you have to go thru the 'gate' to get 2nd gear. If the linkage is balky like it was in my Galaxie, it made it annoying sometimes having to shift 1-2, then unless you came to a complete stop, having to double clutch to get back to 1 as 1 was non-synchronized. If not done right, some painful grinding sounds were heard by all.

kyfdx

sda said:

kyfdx said:

Every 3-speed I've driven is a straight H-pattern, with R-1 on the left and 3-4 on the right, regardless of column or floor mount.

It's pretty easy to drive, that way.

It is easy to drive a 3 speed, however in stop and go traffic you have to go thru the 'gate' to get 2nd gear. If the linkage is balky like it was in my Galaxie, it made it annoying sometimes having to shift 1-2, then unless you came to a complete stop, having to double clutch to get back to 1 as 1 was non-synchronized. If not done right, some painful grinding sounds were heard by all.

My last 3-speed was a CJ-5. Never went back to first, unless I was stopped..

ab348

My MR2 and GTI had 5-speeds and I seldom if ever shifted into 1st while still rolling.

uplanderguy

fin, with a floorshift automatic, was "P" really down at the bottom? That quadrant looks like it's 180 degrees backwards.

sda

Generally I could lug along in 2nd without having to shift to first. However there were a couple of roads that were quite steep and the weak 292 V8 wouldn't pull at low speeds in second and would ping and complain loudly, requiring either coming to a stop to restart in first or double clutching to avoid grinding while shifting down to first.

fintail

I think those were only in the coupes/cabrios - I don't recall ever seeing a fintail sedan with a floor shift automatic, and I think floor shift manuals were only 1965+, maybe the same for floor shift automatics. I have seen images of late run 1970-71 280SE automatics, where the layout wasn't backwards, but normal with P at the top. This is a late run 280SE:



I googled some images, and find this pic of a W113 Pagoda, probably a 230SL, with the reversed quadrant:

uplanderguy said:

fin, with a floorshift automatic, was "P" really down at the bottom? That quadrant looks like it's 180 degrees backwards.

uplanderguy

Thanks. Interestingly, Canadian-built Studebakers, post-South Bend-shutdown, had all white steering wheels in '64 and '65. My '64 Daytona hardtop had an all-white wheel, in an otherwise blue interior.

sda

Sharp and clean looking interiors. I love the real wood in the top picture, and both cars have a/c! Very nice

fintail

White steering wheels were a thing in 50s and 60s MBs (and I think were in older American cars too). My fintail has a white wheel, but the original (I assume) owner put a grey leather cover on the wheel, and it discolored the plastic over the course of 50 years. I've thought about having the wheel refurbished, but have yet to find a place to do it. It's one of a million things on the to-do list.

Factory air in a Pagoda is fairly uncommon, but the later run 280SEs tend to have it as they were very expensive cars when new. 10K or so then, but an easy six figures for a cabrio now, not bad.

The early 60s coupes had even more wood, including the instrument binnacle. This wood can cost a fortune to restore:



Ponton coupes and cabrios also had amazing wood:

Mr_Shiftright

Back then the Germans could make beautiful wood look like plastic while Americans were trying very hard to make plastic look like wood.

Many restorers decide to tone down the finish on those older Mercedes these days.

I don't think I've ever seen a fintail with an automatic floor shift.

A floor-mounted manual transmission on a mid to late 60s Mercedes is not a joy to work with. I would imagine they could be improved by modern machining.

fintail

The really shiny laminated wood then seems to have only been for higher models - coupes/cabrios, Adenauers and W112 cars. Normal sedans had a more muted realistic looking wood, as in my fintail. In the 70s, I think all wood-equipped cars got the glossy stuff. Today, one can opt for a matte finish wood, my W212 has this. The high gloss laminated material can develop cracks over time, where the non-glossy material doesn't have such issues.

ab348

I'm not sure that using wood on the top of the dash with louvering was such a good idea. Likely it wouldn't age well with exposure to all that light and heat.

sda

Fantomworks did a partial registration on a '64 MB convertible, I think a 230. The wood at the defroster vents had completely broken up. They indicated to get reproduction wood would cost $1500, yet they were able to find good used parts for around $150 that they refinished.

kyfdx

My '67 BMW had extensive wood, creating a tray of sorts, on top of the dash. I bought the car in '85, and it was already in rough shape. Couldn't tell if it started out glossy or matte, though.

Mr_Shiftright

Any good local boatwright could make these parts.

fintail

Yeah, maybe not the best idea selling cars with wood dash top bits to people in CA, FL, tropical areas, etc. The fancy models also had wood radio speaker grilles that seldom age well. The wood instrument binnacle also doesn't always age well, probably why later ones ended up covered in leather instead. Makes me glad my fintail isn't that high of a model.

However, it still has the wood at the base of the windshield around the vents, wood framing around the windshield and all door windows, wood strips on all doors, and a lot of wood on the dash. The dash has aged very well, but the stuff closer to sun exposure has some patina. Of course, patina is in right now, so I will leave it as-is. Wood restoration isn't cheap, and I have seen many a "restored" MB with incorrect wood color and finish.

sda

kyfdx said:

My '67 BMW had extensive wood, creating a tray of sorts, on top of the dash. I bought the car in '85, and it was already in rough shape. Couldn't tell if it started out glossy or matte, though.

What model '67 BMW did you have? A neighbor had a '68 tan 2002 with dark brown interior.

ab348

I don't know if this '64 Stude pickup is an older restoration or a well-preserved original. Looks very nice. No idea if the price makes sense or not.

https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/dealer/studebaker/champ/1910738.html

uplanderguy

I don't have an idea as to what's a good price, but to me the price is insane.

Personally only, I dislike the short, wide bed like this one.

If I'm spending $16K, it better look a lot like this one (picture 6543 in the link on the page):

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?55365-Studes-in-Roadside-Americana-photos/page164

'Course, this pic is at South Bend, when the owner is picking his new '62 Champ up at the plant.

There's one that looks just like this that shows up at the international meets every five years or so in South Bend. It's not this same truck, as the grandson of the owner in the pic link above owns the truck now, and it's painted blue.

kyfdx

sda said:

kyfdx said:

My '67 BMW had extensive wood, creating a tray of sorts, on top of the dash. I bought the car in '85, and it was already in rough shape. Couldn't tell if it started out glossy or matte, though.

What model '67 BMW did you have? A neighbor had a '68 tan 2002 with dark brown interior.

2000CS

PF_Flyer

I drove past it on my way to get some parts to deal with a plumbing emergency this morning, and planned to stop and take a photo on my way back, but it was gone. Neither obscure or classic I guess, but I'd never seen one of these in the wild. I would have assumed that SOMEONE had one done up like this, but this was the first time I actually saw one. Was covered with road salt from our recent snows, so they must actually drive it around

tjc78

That's like the people that make Family Trucksters out of Early 80s Crown Vic wagons. 

I saw saw a first year Explorer in really nice shape this weekend in that real color 90% of them were.  

PF_Flyer

Odd that you mention that. Just after I passed the dino tour, I found myself passing one of these and my mind DID flash to the Family Truckster, especially because of the color

stickguy

speaking of plood, yesterday parked at Target I saw a rare Jeep Wagoneer. But this was a 1st generation Liberty, with full side "wood" panels. And complete with a "wagoneer" badge on it. Odd, to say the least.

tjc78

Reminds me of these, what a way to ruin a decent looking truck

stickguy

looks like it might have been an aftermarket kit.

PF_Flyer

Hmm... today's background movie might be a tough guess from this screenshot of a 1927 Studebaker. Not many hints in the image

ab348

I don't suppose the title is "Thrown Clear"?

PF_Flyer

Heh... certainly what they were trying to show. As I recall, this shot was a quick cut to show a car that "crashed" in the general panic that was happening at this point of the film as they fled from danger. You can pretty much see by the blur of the passenger's movement that the car is standing still and the occupants are involved in throwing themselves out of the car. Movie magic!

roadburner

King Kong.

PF_Flyer

roadburner said:

King Kong.

Well done!

PF_Flyer

The lesson from today's film... A Volvo truck beats a Citroën

ab348

"The Euroland Express"?