Nissan Armada

tstik

You guys ask "how can they overlook something like this".

The virtual world where everthing is designed today doesnt have ears.

dboogie

Let me restate upfront that I've NEVER heard the bonafide resonance problem that some folks are experiencing with their vehicles, so what i heard today may not be the resonance deal at all. OK, with that out of the way, let me begin.
Today while driving with all the windows UP, as usual i had no resonance issue. It was a little warm in the vehicle, so for some reason I decided to roll down a little bit JUST the 2nd row window on the drivers side. I was driving in the city at about 40-45mph and about 3 or 4 minutes after letting the window down, I began to hear a "buffeting/helicopter blades in motion" type of sound. I could hear it in my ears AND feel it across my body. I have a '95 Mitsubishi Eclipse and once in blue moon, when i have the windows down, I have heard/felt the exact same thing i was hearing/feeling in the Armada. When I heard/felt the noise today I immediately thought "Uh oh, resonance problem". So i decided to test something. With the 2nd row drivers side window still slightly down, I opened up the two 3rd row side windows and immediately upon doing so, the buffeting stopped. I then closed the 3rd row windows and the buffeting came back. I then rolled up the 2nd row window and everything was quiet as a mouse.....just like it normally has been.
Now, after typing all of this, I'm pretty sure that what I experienced was nothing more than wind buffetting caused by having the one window open. I've let down my windows before in all different types of configurations and never heard what i heard today. BUT I KNOW FOR A FACT I'VE NEVER LET DOWN JUST THAT PARTICULAR WINDOW ALONE...AND TODAY I HEARD IT.
I'm sure everyone with the resonance issue has already checked and rechecked, but I'd just like to suggest checking a third time to make sure ALL of your windows are FULLY up to verify that the resonance is coming when the windows ARE up. Maybe a window is slightly off track and NOT closing completely (i know i seem to be reaching for an answer, but i'm just trying to throw out possible causes).

dboogie

I saw those two blades of grass on the tire after taking the pictures and I darn near had a heart attack!!! You should've seen me rushing out there with my fully loaded AK-47 to frighten them off the tires :O) I haven't seen them since. (hehehe)
Very observant of ya my good man, very observant!

tidester

tstik: Thank you for taking the time to offer your insights.

Just one comment from me: When you fix (i.e. add a break or stiffener) sheet metal in the center you halve the wavelength of the resonant oscillation thereby doubling the frequency. (The product of wavelength and frequency is the propagation speed of the oscillation.)

dboogi: I think you're talking about a distinct phenomenon, one which occurs in a lot of vehicles and is sometimes characterized as a helicopter or thumping sound. That's strictly an internal response to air pressure fluctuations due to air passing by the opened window (Bernoulli effect) whereby the cabin acts as a resonance chamber. From the descriptions I've read here "the resonance problem" seems to stem from improperly set sheet metal on the roof of the vehicle.

tidester, host

tstik

I know but I was already way where most people get lost so I chose not to go to deep.

dboogie

yeah, i was just taking a stab at a possible culprit to the problem. thanks for clarification and breakdown of what it was i was probably experiencing. i figured anything was worth a try :O)

ceric

With my basic aero-dynamic knowledge, I think you probably are very close to the real cause. I hope Nissan is watching this board. It might just save them many engineers' trips to customers trying to dig out the problem. Two observations and thoughts from me.

- QX and Armada have the exactly same roof. Also, with or without sunroof, the middle long strip are equal in length and width. If your theory is 100% correct, then there should be no variance in models (LE, SE, etc.) However, on this board, you heard more people with resonance problem w/o sunroof. Any comments? Or, maybe people are jumping to conclusion here. Or, maybe, under the sheet metal, the ones with sunroofs are more solid in structure (therefore, higher RF).

- If the theory is correct, a simple sunroof wind-deflector would break the air flow and alleviate the problem. Anyone care to try? (would cost you less than $100, and good for quiet conversation with sunroof opened anyway)

chasmanz28

well as many of you guys know what iam going through with my resonance issue i personally dont think adding a wind deflector would do anything, like ive stated before the problem starts when your going over bumps at highway speeds, seems to me like the truck in general cant handle to much stress on the body mainly the roof, when the service manager took off the head liner in my armada he told me the roof in general looked weak, thats why the engineers from nissan thought the bonding agent on the supports would work but sadly it didnt, im thinking that somehow the roof supports need to be supported better, maybe a longer weld or more bracing, only time will tell when this coming friday an engineer is flying down to see what they can do to fix this serious problem

tidester

Would it be possible to mount a temporary luggage rack or some such (with some luggage) on the roof just to test the theory? Just a thought.

tidester, host

tstik

ceric; It makes perfect logic for 2 reasons. 1) With a sunroof the strip in the middle is shorter therefore stronger. 2) Most vehicles with any type of sunroof have extra bracing and supports to support the weight of the mechanism and to make up for loss of strength where a hole has been cut out of the sheetmetal. Any added weight or support to a peice of metal will change the RF I wonder if thats what they where trying to do by adding the extra sound deadening material as posted earlier by another member.

chasmanz28; Every roof on any newer vehicle is weak. The main strength of structure comes from the pillars and the internal bracing, the roof provides little if any structural strength it is just a skin much like our own it stretches and twists and bends but our strength comes from our bones. Also adding a wind deflector may not do anything but it may and it seems to me anything is worth a shot as are some of the other things I posted. Will any of the things I listed make the problem go away maybe and maybe not but they could lessen the effects and make it easier on you but you wont know until you try or you could wait until Nissan figures out what to do. Also you stated that it starts as you hit bumps, the bumps are what send it all into motion. Once it starts how long does it continue?

tidester; that would be great, anything thing is worth a shot but I think the most sucess would be disturbing the the air toward the front but this all just a theory but if it doesnt thats one thing we know that wont work.

Also when I was talking about the wind deflector I was talking about the one that that goes on the front of the hood, but the one for a sunroof may work also or both but we know not having both doesnt.

chasmanz28

the hood deflector was one of the very first things i bought for my armada, and far as when it starts, the best way i could explain it is as follows, if the road that im traveling on is smooth, it doesn't matter what speed im doing it runs great, no resonance at all, but even the slightest defect on the road suface is when i get the resonance inside the cabin, at higher speeds it resonates more, if i go on a long trip maybe after 25 mins of driving my ears will pop and ill get a headache its driving me crazy, and its just not me anybody family or friends that are in it with me feel the same effects, like for example my girl friends ears will pop at different times than i do and visa versa, and once again my armada has the sunroof so even the extra bracing isn't doing much for my problem, if you look at the headliner when the resonance is happening it vibrtates like crazy too much if you ask me, you cant even watch a dvd movie because of how much it moves, and the movement of the headliner seems to match the resonance pulse that i hear, so i know its the roof structure or lack of causing the headliner to vibrate way to much, before buying this nissan i traded in a 2002 ford expedition never had this issue with the ford, my family has large suvs also and they dont have this problem either, figures im the first in the family

tstik

I am in no way doubting that this is bad and the effects of low frequencies on people is well documented, do a search for for the armies low frequencies cannon.

Do you have the deflector for the sunroof?
If you can, can you push up on the center of the cabin inside from front to back and side to side and kinda feel for supports and see if you can feel if the metal is right on top of the roof padding or if there is a gap and room for supports.

Can you have somebody drive and wait for it to start and then push up with your palm on the roof and see if it stops and hard you have to push to make it stop.

gkatz1

Not to worry anyone, but I have to ask just how structurally sound the roof is during a roll over if it buckles so easy from dirty air.

rparnell

Does anybody know of a way to measure and record the changes in air pressure inside the cabin? If we could get some figures it would provide a better case for us with Nissan.

At the moment it is still possible for Nissan representatives to deny its existence ("I can't hear it.."), or to belittle its importance. If we could provide some nice fat figures it would be great.....

jabcpa

Glad to see and appreciate the continued discussion on the resonance. I have same issue as chasman except SE without sunroof. Happens as SOON as hit the SLIGHTEST bump and ends just as quickly when back on smooth road. Nissan dealership drove it and reported they could not hear it. It has seemed to diminished though once I got to 2900 miles. No longer as noticeable or painful to the ears. Also - rear sonar beeps solid when in reverse, especially when the sonar sensors get the slightest bit wet, even when applying rear wash/wiper. I wish Nissan would publicly acknowledge this and get it out in the open. My dealer said they never heard about it. Makes it kind of hard to complain when you are the only one.

dboogie

I'm trying to help ya. I just read your post and since its raining cats and dogs outside right now, I figured I'd see if I could duplicate your sonar problem. Unfortunately, the thing worked flawlessly.....a few intermittent beeps to start out and then the closer i got to the tree in my yard the faster and faster it beeped until it became a solid tone. Sorry.

chasmanz28

no i do not have the sunroof deflector, and i did not feel any metal supports when i pressed up on the liner so there must be a gap between it, "jabcpa" nissan does know of the problem why do you think there flying an engineer this friday, there TSB didn't work and i have more rattles now, even the service manager when we took it for a ride could hear and feel the resonance but he has no idea what else to do next, the armada is so air tight inside the cabin is one of the problems adding to the resonance, i did try to put some force to the head liner with my hand but it still resonated, so only time will tell whats going to be done next, i have a funny feeling there going to be tearing down my head liner again what next i dont know, im not happy about it thats for sure, and in case you dont know what the TSB from nissan was ill tell you since it might help, all they did was put a bead of silicone caulking on both sides of where the seams of the roof supports meet the skin on the roof, they were hoping to add strength overall to the skin but it didn't work

sub9904

Would the roof being somewhat flimsy cause the resonance? With a couple of fingers you can get it to bend quite easily. I tried doing it on several Armadas. Still not a deal killer to me. Especially since it's a hit or miss phenom.

ateixeira

Did Carlos "le cost cutter" Ghosn go too far?

It may not be any thinner than on other Nissans, just the expanses between the pillars and beams are a lot bigger.

-juice

cjs2002

you know its funny... I walked into the dealor the other day and went there to inquire about an Armada, and I was amazed to find that I was asked to leave and that they would not help me? I find this really odd mainly because with in the past year and a half my mom and I have bought 2 cars from the exact dealorship. and Altima and a Maxima (befor the change over on the max). they asked me to leave... I couldn't believe my ears, I was going in to look at trading in both our cars for the murono and a armada... why would they do this, yea I know I'm 20 but I've already purchased TWO cars from them why mess with me now? irk that really steams me now we're thinking of not even getting a Nissan vehicle

photoguy2

CJS2002 Ummmm just what did you do or say to have you asked to leave....

dboogie

what happened?? To have a dealership tell a potential customer (and a repeat one at that) to leave the premises seems very odd to me......usually the customer has to beg and plead for the dealers to let THEM go :O)

(ok that was just a little stereo-typical car salesman humor...I don't mean to offend anyone. By the way, my dealership is great, never ever had any pressure to buy anything or stick around the dealership one second longer than I wanted to. When i was ready to deal, we dealt...quick, easy and pain-free).

cjs2002

I walked in after work this past weekend wearing my office clothes black shirt black pants, rather snazy. (normally I go in jenes and a t shirt) anyways I went in said hello to the guy standing by the door and proceded to look and sit in the armada and murono which where on the show room floor (mind you neither had those little sold stickers on them, because I stear clear of them just out of respect) about 10 -15 mins later a gentleman came over and asked for my name. I said my name was..... and told him that I've purchased cars from here recently and was back in the market to look again. he looked at me like I was from a foriegn world. he walked away and I continued to look at the interior of the armada at the time. soon after another gentle man came back and asked if I would step out of the car (I oblidged and got out of the car because I didn't want to be sitting in someones brand new vehicle) I asked if there was anything wrong and apologyzed if I'd done anything wrong. he asked me where my parents were... I told him that I was looking at the armada and that my mom was considering the Murono and that we were going to trade in both of our cars if we liked the SUVs... once again he said where are your parents if there not going to be here with you I'm going to ask you to leave... at this piont I was rather offended and taken back, I said that I was 20 years old and that Ive already purchased two NEW vehicles from this dealor. he shrugged his shoulders and said not my problem, Im' asking you to leave the premises if your parents aren't going to accompany you. I said that my mom hatted car shopping and my dad was away on a business trip so I'm the one who normally does all of the car shopping and researching while my father negotiates the price... with that he started getting a little irratated and said and I quote "if you will not leave the premises you will be escorted off". at this point I was so mad and offended that I didn't know what to do I left the building and got into my car and peeled out of the parking lot. I called my father and explained what happend and to his horror he went up there (in jenes and a t shirt mind you and he owns his own manufacturing business) and asked to see the manager about what had happend earlier that day with me. the fleet manager I'm guessing came out and said that the dealership didn't want to deal with my kind there and that I wasn't welcome unless i was seriously shopping. At this my father blew up in a fit of rage he couldn't believe what he had just told him. he said what the hell do you mean by his kind? the manager said quickly I mean no disrespect but we thought of him as a teen who was just playing around. my dad had heard enough and left the building he didn't need to hear any more. My question is How in the world do I look like a teen when I'm dressed up from my work and come in and start looking at cars not to mention I already have purchased a car from this dealorship... and the fact that I had told two salesmen about my age and that I'd already purchased a car from there and that I was looking for a new one... UUUHHHH sorry if I don't make sense it just makes me so angry how some people can just judge people by themselve.... I dont know what to do I'm tempted to just trade in my car now and get anything else... what should I do? I dont' even know where I can complain to about this monstrosity... please any thought or help.. I honestly don't know what I could have done wrong. if it was someones new car I had no idea and I never would have sat inside of it I would have asked to see a different one. but like I said there was no sticker on the inside saying sold. I mean if it was sold they only had to say I'm sorry that car is already sold and I would've imeadiatly gotten out but they just asked me to step out and then asked where my parents were...

sub9904

Don't let the dealership put you off on the vehicle if you like it. Plenty of others that would want your business. Go back after you get your new ride and tell them you payed 2k over MSRP. For each one. Cash.

I've been to dealers where my wife and I were completely ignored in the past. I wasn't even a twenty something back then either. Really ticked me off so I can't even imagine what it would be like to be asked to leave.

dboogie

At some point during this upcoming summer my family plans to hit the road and take a vacation. I've been contemplating putting my '95 Mitsubishi Eclipse on a trailer and towing it along with us. Now here is the funny part (as if towing a Mitsu Eclipse isn't already funny) ......I've never towed ANYTHING in my entire life and I'm a 100% certified moron when it comes to towing. I have a 4x2 Armada LE which comes with the Big Tow Package. I figured by already having the tow package on the Armada that would be one less thing I'd have to worry about if I ever wanted to tow something, BUT i know there is other stuff I'll need before I can actually hit the road. Can anyone point me to a good source (be it a book or internet site) that gives a good education/tutuorial on the basics of towing. I will be researching on my own but I wanted to pose the question here just in case I missed a good reference. Plus I figured someone else may be in a similar predicament and could also gain some valuable knowledge.
Thanks in advance for any help!!

tstik

I went and poked around on one last night. First the roof should be fine on rollover as I stated earlier it is just a skin. It looks to me like they spanned a bit to far between the support on the front rack (if you feel at the back of the front rack you can feel the support) and the next support as the whole center section not just in the middle was fairly loose and I believe that is what is causing it.

It would be easiest to fasten some support from the outside as in another rack peice with little pillars that bolt from the inside to the outside . If I was them thats what I would do and alleviate teariing out the headliner and it would be cheaper.

I will say they are a blast to drive much better than the seq to me.

tidester

You might start here: Towing tips for SUVs

tidester, host

dawg23

Question about the GPS Navigation system. (Didn't really want it, but wanted the power tailgate - so had to buy the package).

EVERY TIME I crank the engine, I get a "disclaimer" screen on the GSP display and have to click on a box that says "I AGREE." This isn't a huge deal, but it's annoying to have to click this box 6 times a day.

Is there any way to get rid of, or "bypass", this screen ???

ateixeira

The lawyer screen. ;-)

-juice

tiggerguy

I guess it's just part of the pleasure of owning a vehicle with NAV...Everything from Lexus to Toyota have this feature, I know of no way to disable it.....you CAN just let it go and it will resort to the dull screen, but I still like watching where I'm going...I really should be looking out the windshield.....
Dboogie- I wouldn't panic about towing...if you can wheel this monster around by itself, a Mitsubishi isn't going to add too much complication! Just remember to park in open spaces so you don't get boxed in, avoid having to back out of anywhere until you have mastered it, and steer wide around sharp turns. Probably the cheapest route would be to rent a 2 axle trailer, from a trucking company like penske or U Haul. AND, if you come out my way, my Black Armada will probably need a wash job LOL Gee I wonder if the parking sonar will pick up the trailer and beep solid....anyone know this?

rshe

Yes it will beep solid, that is why there is a disable button on the left side of the steering wheel.

dboogie

thanks for the vote of confidence in me handling the Armada with the Mitsu behind it. If I am in your area, I'll dial you up and let you know I'm on my way :O) By the way, here is a link to a picture of my Eclipse.....9 years old, 135,000 miles and still going strong!

rshe

Went on the NHTSA site and there are already 2 complaints regarding the resonance/wind buffeting. The problem is that they are listed under the Nissan Pathfinder, since there is no Armada choice...

dboogie

In my previous post (msg#1857), I did not intentionally post the photo thats at the end of the message. I followed the HTML tag example of how to post a LINK to a photo and when I did, the actual photo was displayed instead of the link. I found the example in the Town Hall Help section...I've linked photos one time before and i did the same thing this time that i did then. I don't know what the problem may be. Oh, I just notice I made a mistake when i was typing about my Eclipse in msg#1857.....it only has 113,000 miles on it.....don't know how i typed 135,000 :O) Any help/suggestions is appreciated.

sub9904

This may sound like a dumb question but why would you want to tow your car while on vacation with your Armada?

dboogie

I was wondering when someone was gonna ask that question. This is gonna sound soooooo, stupid but the reason I wanna tow it is basically because I just wanna see how the Armada does while towing something. I know, crazy reason huh?? I could try to elaborate more but I feel as though I'm already coming off as a complete lunatic ..........so i'll shut up! :O)

cjs2002

went to another local dealor today.... wow what a difference I walked in and at first I was a bit worried I really didn't want to go through that whole ordeal again. so I went and sat in the Murono, salesman came up and asked if he could help I said that I was looking to get two new cars I wanted the Armada and my mom the Murono... he chuckled and said your what twenty I thought you'd be wanting the murono and your mom would want the Armada... I lauphed.... it was totally different I went ahead and told him about what had happend at the other dealor and he went and told his store manager, by luck the guy who ownd the dealorship happend to be there as well and some how or another he found out what had happend he came up and appologized for what had happend i said thank you but I'm still not going back to that dealor. he said as a matter of fact that is another one of the dealorships I own and I will be looking into how things are being run over there, your not the first to complain about the treatment... I was beaming from ear to ear at this point my dad and I are going to go back and do some price shopping /haggling this weekend and I have a feeling we might be able to swing a rather than better deal... so meybe this worked out all for the better.,... its amazing how different some dealorships can be... just by the people working there...

bowke28

please forgive me for being insensitive, but a dealer cannot own more than 1 franchise of the same manufacturer in the same market. i find it difficult to beleive that he actually owns both nissan dealers.

peter_in_atl

You have to define "same market". Here in the Atlanta area, there are plenty that own more than one. Granted, they're several miles apart but it's not difficult to drive to either.

sub9904

Hmmm I'll pass on the lunatic part but will offer this advice. If you want to see how it tows do a weekend trip. Far less of a hassle. Especially if you are going on a long trip in the summer. IMO it's so much more relaxing when you are not towing. You have so many more things to think about while towing. On top of that (and I know this will hurt) you can legally only drive 55mph while towing! Yeah you can get away with 65mph but when towing you have to start thinking of the safety factor any faster than that. Out of state plates are a cop magnet too. Oh and one other thing your fuel economy will drop and the Armada doesn't have the biggest gas tank.

dboogie

As simplistic as your advice sounds, i swear doing a weekend jaunt never even crossed my mind. See, I told ya....lunatic!!:O) your suggestion does make a lot of sense. I so rarely get a break from work that even my weekends are often as busy as the work week. It seems the only time I can get away is when we plan our family vacations and that was the only time I was thinking of towing. Excellent point, my fellow Armada friend :O). If and when i get a free weekend and after i brush up on everything i need to know about towing I just may give it a shot!
Thanks again.

cjs2002

hmmm I don't know.... but I could swear he said he owned both... I drove about an hour and a half to get to it... but don't know if that was far enough apart from one another.... so I don't know... but oh well... I'm just excited to be back as an "human being" in the eyes of dealors
but wish me luck this weekend we're going to the auto show, and then probably to the dealor to work out some numbers... the number part is about the only thing that I don't like but I've learned rather well from my father how to walk out if they start acting like you NEED there car and only they have the car you want or can afford... thanx for letting me blow steam and we'll let you know sunday how everything goes

rshe

Has anyone mounted a cartop carrier on their Armada yet? I have a Sears Sport 20SV which is the largest they make. Based on some quick measurments, I don't think it will span the distance between the front roof rack and the rear. I think I could make it fit on the rear only (with the purchase of another crossbar), but am unsure if that will be sturdy enough.. Any opinions or insights appreciated.

btill1

You are in the exact position I was in a few weeks ago, we have a Thule Evolution 1600 car top carrier. When we purchased our Armada I knew that the carrier was not going to fit, the sales rep suggested purchasing another cross bar and put it on the back two cross bars. I did not like this solution because it would hang to far off the back of the PFA. I was still unsure that was going to work but we went ahead and purchased the extra cross bar (i believe it was around $80) I figured it would be good to have anyway. But after talking to Thule and other people about getting the roof top carrier to work, here is what I did, I drilled four holes in the back of the roof top carrier and put the clamps through those 4 holes. I did this because I was told by someone at Thule that it would be a while before Thule had a solution for the PFA and roof top carriers. So I was told by someone that sells Thule "just drill holes where you need them). I was a little apprehensive about doing this but it was rather easy and the best thing is, is that it works. Hope this helps.

rshe

Thanks a million.. I was thinking of that as a possibility and was wondering if it would pose any structural issues to the carrier.. After looking closely at the carrier it looks OK. I mainly use it to keep the twin jogging stroller and some other light stuff, so weight shouldn't be an issue. Thule makes my carrier for Sears to put their name on it, so it's probably very similar to yours. I did notice that my carrier instruction say for use on racks rated at 150lbs or greater and Nissan says that the rear rack is only rated to 125lbs if not used in conjunction with the front crossbar. So I was a little nervous about using the rear racks only.

btill1

No problem good luck, I am sure the people at Thule would not endorse this fix, but it certainly has worked on mine to this point.

rshe

Of course they wouldn't, they want to sell you the Armada mounting kit for $75..LOL

teddybear3

As I slammed the door of my Armada, I noticed the roof flex. Looks like it moves 1/4". Closing 2 doors at the same time is like an accordian. I tried the same on my wife's MDX. Almost nothing. The road noise is noticeable 70-75 mph on the frost heaved roads. But I sure love put the hammer down on the Armada compared to the MDX.

blockislandguy

This has got to be the most troubled new product launch since maybe the B1 Bomber. I think that Nissan will have a small window of time to fix this problem and if they can't, the vehicle will be then permanently branded as a loser. All in all its unfortunate given the abundant qualities and good pricing. Does anyone sense any concern (e.g, chartered flights of engineers to inspect the problem, lights burning 24/7 in MS, people sleeping at the plant, etc.)? If they just blow this off as American consumerism, they can write off the program.

rshe

This is exactly where Nissan lacks miserably compared to their counterparts at Toyota and Honda. Until they begin to realize that they lose out to T & H mainly because of the customer service and dealer networks, they will always be a [non-permissible content removed] child. Nissan has some of the most progressive designs in automobiles hands down. But that alone isn't going to carry them through if they send out a product with bugs and refuse to correct it.

My question to those with this resonance issue, have any of you started to pursue the lemon laws in your prospective states? It might take some of you doing that to give the Nissan brass a kick in the donkey.

I consider my self lucky, as I don't have the problem. Since one of the vehicles I test drove had is severely, I was acutely aware to look for it. What scares me is some people have said that it started after they have owned for a while. Keep us informed what Nissan is/isn't doing for you all. And Good Luck.