Yeah, I agree. That's why Dodge still outsells any other company. My father-in-law bought two Carvan. He wants the Ody really bad, but did not want to spend the $$.
Yeah, top of the line minivans are in the minority group. I guess Toyota just tries to please a wider range. They can afford to do that because they are so much bigger than Honda as a company.
I can understand Honda not having all the toys added. I will also predict that the Ody will outsell the Sienna.
But yeah, if you have money to spend, you for it. Heck, if I were Bill Gates, I'd have a $380K Maybach in addition to the Lexus LX470 he drives:)
I bet Bill Gates justifies a lot of the things he buys. Why? It would be so boring if you didn't have to justy something. I mean, if I were Bill Gates, I'd say, "I want to buy a $380K Maybach because I can afford it and it seems cool to me".
I want to buy a minivan with NAV+DVD+Rearview Camera+Laser Cruise+Intuitive Parking+Power 2nd row doors+Power rear door+360 Watts JBL 10Speaker stereo system+2nd & 3rd row sunshades+Tri-Zone Climate+everything but the kitchen sink BECAUSE most people don't have it and because it's cool.
I just ordered my 2005 Odyssey EXL via Internet Sales at my local dealer. I was prepared to pay MSRP, but asked the Internet Sales Manager if discounts were available. He immediately offered up a $750 discount off MSRP. A quick $500 credit card deposit later, I'm number 4 on their list!
So how much was it cost for the EX-L at MSRP? Any printed lectures available? Any pictures of the car? Release date? I assume not much info at this stage. And you just placed your order via internet without visit the showroom. Hey! This maybe the last time bambaboo can share us any more details.
I would presume his paperwork/order says "MSRP - whatever discount he got". When I ordered my 00, even with a published list price they insisted on using the phrase "MSRP" as they didn't want to eat a price increase just in case.
robr2 got it right - my sales order is written up as "MSRP - $750". Dealer had no information about the van other than "late summer" release. Interestingly, this dealership is insisting I complete the sale - they ask for a $500 deposit which they claim is non-refundable. I take that (plus the instant discount) to mean they are concerned the new model will not be as dominant over the competition as the outgoing model was for so long.
to put a non refundable deposit on a yet to be release vehicle. For all we know, the 05 ody could be some radical ugly thing like the new nissan quest.
Interesting. I guess some people just have plenty of money to spend without even seeing the actual product. Oh well. If you don't like it, you can always trade it in for something else, right?
Most of us can afford a $30-$40K minivan, but we would not put any money down until we at least see what it looks like first.
Yeah, I hope it does not look anything like the Nissan Quest.
Because its a van. An appliance. And Honda (imho) make the best appliances out there. Ultimately I'm buying an Odyssey because of its functionality. My other car is a 325i. I would never order a BMW sight-unseen, especially given what Chris Bangle's design direction has been producing for them the last few years.
The Odyssey will haul my wife, my kids, pets and stuff. And I figure the 2005 will be worth a lot more than a 2004 when I turn it over three year out. Is there any reason to believe that Honda will ruin the formula for 2005? Not really. When did they last take a radical styling step with a bread and butter vehicle? So is it really foolish to take a (small) risk in putting a deposit and saving $750 on a sight-unseen Odyssey in April? No more so than waiting for confirmation of Hondas continued improvement, getting at the end of another long line and getting gouged by greedy dealers when they have another big hit on their hands.
Normally a deposit on a new vehicle will be stated as refundable, since you can't be expected to commit to something that doesn't exist at an undetermined price. Frankly, I think all deposits are refundable based on legal merits, but normally you just have to ask and they will give it back, if for no other reason than to not create ill will.
There are exceptions for special orders of course (so the dealer doesn't get stuck with a pink Lincoln with no AC or some such unsaleable car). If anything, the dealer will want to give it back, and sell at MSRP to someone off the street (assuming the van is as nice as expected).
If it's 'just a van. An appliance,' why does brand matter? Honda or Toyota, what's the difference? Why not buy a Sienna that's available for under MSRP now? You can go touch, feel and see one today. Seems differences in improved '05 Ody and current '04 Sienna will be slight, and unimportant to someone who just wants an appliance. Unless, of course, you insist that your appliance be a Honda. If so, Honda dealers are counting on there being lots of folks like you.
PS: Agree with you about new BMW's being hit with the 'Bangle stick.'
Basically, you believe the new Ody will not only look at least as good as the current Ody, but it will be tremendously improved over the current Ody. Do you believe the new Ody will be more advanced than the new Sienna and that's why you are willing to pay $750 under MSRP for the new Ody, instead of $750 above invoice for the new Sienna? I am now hearing about huge discounts on the new Sienna from quite a few people. I have been offered $3K off MSRP on a Sienna Limited, although I've heard of a few $3,800 off MSRP. So $750 under MSRP is relatively nothing in comparison, unless you believe the new Ody will be significantly more advanced than the new Sienna.
My opinion: MSRP / MSRP -$750/ under-invoice / Invoice + $500 dont mean anything. IT is just demand v/s supply. Also dealer add-ons can how company set's up its model lineup/options makes all the difference. In my opinion Toyota pricing is complicated and leave a lot of room for the Sales person to gyp the customer. Honda option pricing and model lineup is simple.
Sienna pricing will come under pressure as demand goes down for it when Honda introduces its new model. At that point (not now) you look at the sale price of Brand X and Brand Y and see what you get for the money and make your decision. If you are emotionally tied to one brand,you buy it regardless of what the other offers. But you will pay a lower price for it come september as the field will be crowded with newer models competing for your dollars.
I don't believe non-refundable deposit. Anything can be happened between now and the delivery date for you and the dealer? Many good dealers don't even cash your check or charge your credit card until they have the VIN or car in the dealer. I am surprised about the $750 off MSRP deal. Why don't they convince you to buy the 2004 model in their lot and make money now?
Like many said, I am not commit anything unless I see the actual product or any information to back it up. This is unlike the 2005 Lexus RX400h. There are already 50 people with $500 refundable deposit on the wait list in one local dealer. This is different because we have seen the actual pictures and the specification of the car from many sources.
The Sienna is not an option for me. Our local Honda dealer has a good service department whereas the Toyota dealer does not.
Although the Honda dealer is attempting to hedge their bets by asking for a non-refundable deposit, I'm sure the State Attorney General would have something to say if I wanted to back out before the actual assignment of VIN's.
I can't imagine any service department that would prevent me from buying a particular car-- especially a reliable brand like Toyota. Then again, there are probably a half dozen Toyota dealers within 40 miles of where I live. Each to his own.
...how do you know your dealer won't inflate the MSRP of your '05 Ody with crap like paint & fabric protection, rustproofing, pinstripe, etc? Did you insist that it must not have any of this dealer/distributor added garbage that Honda is famous for adding to hot models?
Ok... How does ONE put a deposit on a vehicle that has yet to debut. On top, we have no idea of what pricing and packaging is... maybe there is a EX-L model or they might just go with something new.
You don't even know if it might meet your expectation for your next vehicle or not... as great as Honda they might just change the concept of a minivan.
To top it all off... Dealer doesn't know the prices, colours they might be getting. anyway, seems to be a pretty stupid thing to do. It's not like they will run out of them before they even land. Technically they can't sell anything until they have the VIN number!
although, i can understand Fame part of it over the Town Hall or pride of having the first one to be sold in the country!?
usually, the deposit just gets you first on the list (or close to it). Which prety much means you get rights of first refusal when they start to come in (or know what the allocation is). In this case, also guarantees you $750 off.
Wonder how long before supply catches up to the initial demand. CHristmas sound about right? The wife is kinda interested, and if she likes, it might be on target for the holidays.
I've enjoyed your info & insight into the features of the upcoming '05 Ody. Just out of curiosity- I assume there are at least a number of '05 Ody prototypes or manufacturing mules running around your plant. Why hasn't anyone tried to take a spy photo of one?
jchan - I think they are competitive. But I found Toyota is slightly better and refined. Just my opinion. I am willing to see the '05 Odyssey pricing.
Sienna CE - $23495, LE - $25020, XLE - $29020, XLE Limited - $35240
Odyssey LX - $24490, EX - $26990, EX with DVD - $27740, EX-L - $28490 EX-L with DVD - $29990, EX-L with Navi - $30490.
I checked out the Honda Japanese website. And I don't see the LaGreat on the auto lineup. But I can still find info on LaGreat when doing a search. Is that mean the LaGreat is fading in JDM and to be replaced with 8-passenger Elysion?
Man, I'm hearing a bunch of people talking about getting the Sienna for invoice and under invoice now. I guess the word about the new Odyssey has leaked and a lot of people have stop buying the Sienna with anticipation of the new Ody. A few months ago, I could not even find a single Limited Sienna anyway in OKC. Now they are everywhere. Now I see Sienna Limted with Nav+DVD at every local dealer around here. People are gettting at least $3K to $4K off MSRP now. So when the new Ody does hit the dealer lots, I bet you can get any Sienna at invoice. There is no way you can get any new 05 Ody at invoice. I think you might get $1K off MSRP, but now way close to invoice on the 05 Ody for 1 year.
So I think the new Sienna will be a better money deal for most people once the new Odys hit the dealers.
Honda's tend to have a fairly small mark-up (invoice to MSRP), so 1K off early on sounds like a very reasonable price, assuming they keep the same competitive pricing (as opposed to the domestics that inflate MSRP by 3K so they can offer big rebates).
Another plus for the Sienna, they will have had a year to work out the bugs, and maybe will improve the content packaging a bit (such as offer a power seat on the LE).
Competition is a good thing my friends. And there will be lots of nice choices by this fall.
I think Toyota has regional advertising fees that are added to the published invoice price and can range from 2-3% based upon regions. I think Honda includes the advertising fee in the invoice price of their cars. So the diff between the Honda and Toyota MSRP and published invoice price is a lot closer if you consider the advertising fee.
So when somebody says they got a Sienna for $500 over invoice it might be closer to $1000 over in reality after the advertising fee is added to the invoice. Not that anyone ever strays from reality on these boards?
Somehow people get the idea that as soon as the new Ody comes out the Sienna will drop significantly in popularity. The second coming of the....? This is nonsense both are going to match up fairly closely in spec's and features. Sienna will lean toward luxury and Ody toward performance. Bamaboy's comments already bare this out. These after all cars not works of art! It's like camry and accord. Ody previously had the field to itself against the smaller last gen Sienna. Just like accord 20+ years ago on intro.... Guy's get real! The deals on both will be good .... no lines waiting on either.
remember, once production on the '05 is ramped up, there will be 300,000+ Odys and Siennas fighting for buyers each year. The supply/demand equation should be better balanced soon. From reading these boards, it sounds like some areas of the country actually have Siennas in stock (not much of that by me though).
If nothing else, the popularity of the Sienna will make sure that Honda is aggressive in pricing the '05 Ody, and Toyota will probably take some steps to stay ahead.
I just read something that the 2005 Odyssey will have sunroof, picnic table (like CR-V), MP3 player and the lower skirt trim package. Bambaboo... where are you?
Just In From Honda Preview: Numbers 4, 5, 6, adn 7 are the new stuff.
1. VCM or Variable Cylinder Management will be on the 05 which in short will shut off three cylinders when they are not needed, increasing your fuel mileage.
2. AWD will not be making an appearance in 05 despite the request of dealers asking for this feature. Honda is stating that the standard traction control that is now available offers substantial traction and safety. AWD will be considered at a later time if demand increases.
3. The Voice-Activated Navigation System which is now available on the Accord will be present in the 2005.
4. EX models with Leather will come equipped with a factory moon roof.
5. Current model matrix indicates LX, EX, EXL, EXL-R, EXL-RN. If you do the math EXL-RN would indicate Leather, Rear Entertainment System and Navigation. In related information it appears Honda will not offer a dealer installed Entertainment System for vehicles without it standard.
6. Color mix is to include Black, Dark Blue Pearl, Light Blue Metallic, White, Dark Green Pearl, Silver Pearl, Light Green Metallic, Red Pearl and Beige Metallic. Specific color names are not available at this time.
7. Some of the new accessories for 2005 include underbody spoiler kits, auto day/night mirror, body-matched back-up sensors, door visors, cooler bags, 3rd row sunshade, interior cargo board, table leg kit, and all season floor mats to name a few.
Unless we are told differently the 2005 Odyssey will be hitting showrooms in August-September 2004. The first dealer order allocations should be coming out sometime around June.
I only have 1 concern, 17 cup holders??? My goodness!! :-) This wait is killing me. I gotta check out the Drive-by-wire throttle on the new Ody. I'm too used to it on my TSX now and I just love it. All the other stuffs are very cool and practical, too. Definitely wouldn't disappoint me if all those were true.
Good info. I hope Honda will put these trims (LX, EX, etc.) emblems on the back of the car to tell which is which. 17 cupholders? Don't we need just 7 or 8 cupholders for 7 or 8 passengers? Some people in Sienna forum ask why auto markers don't put a trash bin in minivan so they don't have to tie a plastic bag on the back of the headrests or near the center console. We got DVD player, grocery bag hooks, cupholders but not for trash.
the US version will look as luxurious instead of the "strip-down" minimal version. Why does the Japanese version get the luxurious treatment and the US version never does?
sat in an '04 today to refresh my memory. 2 recent reviews (Edmunds and C&D) just did comparosin tests, and the current version won both, and they gave it top marks for the front seats. I did find them roomy, but not particularly comfortable (to hard/flat and just not shaped right). Also can't stand the shift lever location (how's that for petty!).
Anyway, also sat in an Accord, which had great seats. Get a version of them w/armrests, and I will be happy. Also good news about the moonroof, cause we have one now and I would hate to give it up
Better seats + better dash + moonroof + similar price = no reason to look at the MDX again. Current EX-L is about $28,890. Add a roof and keep it below 30K, and it will be a much better deal than a Sienna.
Can someone PLEASE Copy and Paste the article from Temple Of Vtec? The reason is because i cant see it because when i Log In they say that i am not allowed to go see the 2005 Honda Modles, SO SOMEPONE PLEASE COPY AND PASTE THE ARTICLE FROM THE TEMPLE OF V-TEC!!!! Thanks!!!
How does the info in the Temple of Vtec article stack up against all that Bamaboy has told us? Anything different in the Temple's list of new features and changes compared with Bama's list?
Seems to match closely what Bamaboy has been saying all along. However, I can't remember if he said the moonroof will be there or not. But he did mention the roll-down sliding door window, and the option for both RES and NAVI. I also remember reading somewhere that you can pre-order it starting in June, although I know some people in this forum has already done it. So I'm hoping Honda will release the official spec by the time. I think I'm gonna sue Honda for pain and suffering because this wait is painful. :-) Can't we use the Information Freedom Act to get them to release information or something? Hehe. :-)
Dang it! Can anyone visit the link now? I went there again and I get the "Security Violation". I was there this morning and it was still there. Seem to have been taken down within the last few hours. Hmm... Maybe Honda found out and forced them to remove it. Sigh.
Danno wrote: Available Plus-1 seating on the 2nd row. (3-passenger 2nd Row).
I would like know more about that: Are you sure the new Ody will offer 8-passenger seating? If yes, it will be a big hit - but if I remember, bamaboy pointed out that only 7-passenger will be available, and no 8-pass.
8-passenger seating in a minivan was a GM-exclusive until now, and with the new redesign they will drop this offer - too bad, it's one of the most important things it dragged buyers. Now all those customers who needs 8-passengers will switch to Sienna or, if the new new Ody will offer it, to the Odyssey.
Copying/pasting copyrighted material into the Town Hall is a violation of the Member Agreement. Please take a look at that agreement for further clarification.
Once again... any sign this is the Honda Elysion in JDM? It is a new 8 passenger minivan which debut in Japan on 5/13/04. Is the VCM engine standard on all models/trims of the '05 Odyssey? The Elysion is using 250 hp V6 VETC engine, not VCM. And the middle seats of the second and third rows can fold down as a armrest (with cupholders)when they are not in use. Come on... we need some pictures!
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Comments
That's why Dodge still outsells any other company.
My father-in-law bought two Carvan. He wants the Ody really bad, but did not want to spend the $$.
Yeah, top of the line minivans are in the minority group. I guess Toyota just tries to please a wider range. They can afford to do that because they are so much bigger than Honda as a company.
I can understand Honda not having all the toys added. I will also predict that the Ody will outsell the Sienna.
But yeah, if you have money to spend, you for it.
Heck, if I were Bill Gates, I'd have a $380K Maybach in addition to the Lexus LX470 he drives:)
Peace.
I bet Bill Gates justifies a lot of the things he buys.
Why? It would be so boring if you didn't have to justy something.
I mean, if I were Bill Gates, I'd say, "I want to buy a $380K Maybach because I can afford it and it seems cool to me".
I want to buy a minivan with NAV+DVD+Rearview Camera+Laser Cruise+Intuitive Parking+Power 2nd row doors+Power rear door+360 Watts JBL 10Speaker stereo system+2nd & 3rd row sunshades+Tri-Zone Climate+everything but the kitchen sink BECAUSE most people don't have it and because it's cool.
Anyways, it will be fun to see the new Ody.
Are you that loyal to Honda?
Just curious.
I guess some people just have plenty of money to spend without even seeing the actual product.
Oh well. If you don't like it, you can always trade it in for something else, right?
Most of us can afford a $30-$40K minivan, but we would not put any money down until we at least see what it looks like first.
Yeah, I hope it does not look anything like the Nissan Quest.
Because its a van. An appliance. And Honda (imho) make the best appliances out there. Ultimately I'm buying an Odyssey because of its functionality. My other car is a 325i. I would never order a BMW sight-unseen, especially given what Chris Bangle's design direction has been producing for them the last few years.
The Odyssey will haul my wife, my kids, pets and stuff. And I figure the 2005 will be worth a lot more than a 2004 when I turn it over three year out. Is there any reason to believe that Honda will ruin the formula for 2005? Not really. When did they last take a radical styling step with a bread and butter vehicle?
So is it really foolish to take a (small) risk in putting a deposit and saving $750 on a sight-unseen Odyssey in April? No more so than waiting for confirmation of Hondas continued improvement, getting at the end of another long line and getting gouged by greedy dealers when they have another big hit on their hands.
There are exceptions for special orders of course (so the dealer doesn't get stuck with a pink Lincoln with no AC or some such unsaleable car). If anything, the dealer will want to give it back, and sell at MSRP to someone off the street (assuming the van is as nice as expected).
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
PS: Agree with you about new BMW's being hit with the 'Bangle stick.'
MSRP / MSRP -$750/ under-invoice / Invoice + $500
dont mean anything. IT is just demand v/s supply. Also dealer add-ons can how company set's up its model lineup/options makes all the difference. In my opinion Toyota pricing is complicated and leave a lot of room for the Sales person to gyp the customer. Honda option pricing and model lineup is simple.
Sienna pricing will come under pressure as demand goes down for it when Honda introduces its new model. At that point (not now) you look at the sale price of Brand X and Brand Y and see what you get for the money and make your decision. If you are emotionally tied to one brand,you buy it regardless of what the other offers. But you will pay a lower price for it come september as the field will be crowded with newer models competing for your dollars.
Like many said, I am not commit anything unless I see the actual product or any information to back it up. This is unlike the 2005 Lexus RX400h. There are already 50 people with $500 refundable deposit on the wait list in one local dealer. This is different because we have seen the actual pictures and the specification of the car from many sources.
Although the Honda dealer is attempting to hedge their bets by asking for a non-refundable deposit, I'm sure the State Attorney General would have something to say if I wanted to back out before the actual assignment of VIN's.
As I said before, my risk is minimal.
You don't even know if it might meet your expectation for your next vehicle or not... as great as Honda they might just change the concept of a minivan.
To top it all off... Dealer doesn't know the prices, colours they might be getting. anyway, seems to be a pretty stupid thing to do. It's not like they will run out of them before they even land. Technically they can't sell anything until they have the VIN number!
although, i can understand Fame part of it over the Town Hall or pride of having the first one to be sold in the country!?
Wonder how long before supply catches up to the initial demand. CHristmas sound about right? The wife is kinda interested, and if she likes, it might be on target for the holidays.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I've enjoyed your info & insight into the features of the upcoming '05 Ody.
Just out of curiosity- I assume there are at least a number of '05 Ody prototypes or manufacturing mules running around your plant. Why hasn't anyone tried to take a spy photo of one?
Sienna CE - $23495, LE - $25020, XLE - $29020, XLE Limited - $35240
Odyssey LX - $24490, EX - $26990, EX with DVD - $27740, EX-L - $28490
EX-L with DVD - $29990, EX-L with Navi - $30490.
I checked out the Honda Japanese website. And I don't see the LaGreat on the auto lineup. But I can still find info on LaGreat when doing a search. Is that mean the LaGreat is fading in JDM and to be replaced with 8-passenger Elysion?
So when the new Ody does hit the dealer lots, I bet you can get any Sienna at invoice. There is no way you can get any new 05 Ody at invoice. I think you might get $1K off MSRP, but now way close to invoice on the 05 Ody for 1 year.
So I think the new Sienna will be a better money deal for most people once the new Odys hit the dealers.
Another plus for the Sienna, they will have had a year to work out the bugs, and maybe will improve the content packaging a bit (such as offer a power seat on the LE).
Competition is a good thing my friends. And there will be lots of nice choices by this fall.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
So when somebody says they got a Sienna for $500 over invoice it might be closer to $1000 over in reality after the advertising fee is added to the invoice. Not that anyone ever strays from reality on these boards?
If nothing else, the popularity of the Sienna will make sure that Honda is aggressive in pricing the '05 Ody, and Toyota will probably take some steps to stay ahead.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
1. VCM or Variable Cylinder Management will be on the 05 which in short will shut off three cylinders when they are not needed, increasing your fuel mileage.
2. AWD will not be making an appearance in 05 despite the request of dealers asking for this feature. Honda is stating that the standard traction control that is now available offers substantial traction and safety. AWD will be considered at a later time if demand increases.
3. The Voice-Activated Navigation System which is now available on the Accord will be present in the 2005.
4. EX models with Leather will come equipped with a factory moon roof.
5. Current model matrix indicates LX, EX, EXL, EXL-R, EXL-RN. If you do the math EXL-RN would indicate Leather, Rear Entertainment System and Navigation. In related information it appears Honda will not offer a dealer installed Entertainment System for vehicles without it standard.
6. Color mix is to include Black, Dark Blue Pearl, Light Blue Metallic, White, Dark Green Pearl, Silver Pearl, Light Green Metallic, Red Pearl and Beige Metallic. Specific color names are not available at this time.
7. Some of the new accessories for 2005 include underbody spoiler kits, auto day/night mirror, body-matched back-up sensors, door visors, cooler bags, 3rd row sunshade, interior cargo board, table leg kit, and all season floor mats to name a few.
Unless we are told differently the 2005 Odyssey will be hitting showrooms in August-September 2004. The first dealer order allocations should be coming out sometime around June.
http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=231195
I only have 1 concern, 17 cup holders??? My goodness!! :-) This wait is killing me. I gotta check out the Drive-by-wire throttle on the new Ody. I'm too used to it on my TSX now and I just love it. All the other stuffs are very cool and practical, too. Definitely wouldn't disappoint me if all those were true.
Now the big question to anyone - WHERE ARE THE PHOTOS???
Why does the Japanese version get the luxurious treatment and the US version never does?
Anyway, also sat in an Accord, which had great seats. Get a version of them w/armrests, and I will be happy. Also good news about the moonroof, cause we have one now and I would hate to give it up
Better seats + better dash + moonroof + similar price = no reason to look at the MDX again. Current EX-L is about $28,890. Add a roof and keep it below 30K, and it will be a much better deal than a Sienna.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Thanks!!!
I would like know more about that: Are you sure the new Ody will offer 8-passenger seating? If yes, it will be a big hit - but if I remember, bamaboy pointed out that only 7-passenger will be available, and no 8-pass.
8-passenger seating in a minivan was a GM-exclusive until now, and with the new redesign they will drop this offer - too bad, it's one of the most important things it dragged buyers. Now all those customers who needs 8-passengers will switch to Sienna or, if the new new Ody will offer it, to the Odyssey.