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Comments
We need some cold hard pics.
I must know if it has any woodtrims or chrome on the interior!
Somebody please help.
Actually, if they transplant the Accord dashboard and seats into the Ody it will address my only real issues with it (other than the non-split rear seat, which also is getting addressed).
If all these new features are legit, if they can keep the price on an EXL w/moonroof to 30K (about 1.5K more than today), it will undercut the price nicely on a Sienna, and probably be my wifes next car (just in time for Christmas!).
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
However, this VCM will not be featured in any Acura models, including the '05 flagship RL.
There is concern with the VCM causing noise. Honda people say they have developed anti-vibration technology plus active noise-cancellation via a speaker (like the Bose noise-cancellation headphones?).
Is it worth it just to save some money on fuel?
As if Honda doesn't already have enough problems with transmission recalls and past history of other engine problems. Why make the engine even more complex? Wouldn't this increase the risk of problems?
And causing more engine noise, so much that they had to add anti-vibration and noise cancellation speakers? How about NOT having those noise to begin with? Do Honda peopple think the Ody is so quiet now that they can afford to add more noise to it? When compared to the Sienna and T&C, the current Ody is already the loudest minivan. Let's ADD more noise and then ADD anti-vibration and ADD active noise-cancelling speakers.
It's kind of like treating patients with a medication that causes other side effects and medical problems and then ADD more drugs to treat those drug-induced problems. There is a phrase for this kind of thing in the healthcare world. It's called "Polypharmacy" treatment of "Iatrogenic illness".
How about finding a different drug (or solution) that doesn't cause more side effects (or noise)?
I'm glad I'm not in the market to buy a new '05 Ody. At least by the time I buy one in 2006, I will know by then if this VCM is any good.
Hmm, I wonder why this great VCM is not in the great new Acura RL, TL, MDX, etc.
We haven't heard from Bamabo in a while. Is he busy or something? It would be informative to get his comments on the new information that's coming out now.
From what I have read, the Chrysler 300 that uses VCM technology is just as quiet and smooth as a car without it, and you really can't tell that it is there.
Also, VCM isn't that diffferent in concept from V-tech, which has been very reliable. And if it ever stopped working, you would just have a normal V6. If nothing else, it is much simpler (and lighter) than hybrid technology, not to mention cheaper.
You are right that the Ody is somewhat the guinea pig for Honda, but I assume that if it works as advertised, you will see it in other models soon.
I would trust Honda to get a new technology right more than most sompanies, since they have always been engineer driven.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
We haven't heard from Bamabo in a while. Is he busy or something? It would be informative to get his comments on the new information that's coming out now.
My question is, if the VCM shuts down 3 cylinders, and then stops working, would you only have 3 working cylinders?
To me, that means among the Sienna, T&C, and Ody, the Ody is still the loudest like it has always been.
I just wonder about the Active Noise-Cancellation speakers. Can we assume these speakers are on everytime the engine is on? Are these the same seven speakers (6 speakers + 1 subwoofer) used for the stereo system and the NAV?
Doesn't this sound like spraying air freshener into a room with a bad odor, instead of getting rid of the bad odor to begin with?
So like when the speakers go bad, will we get this loud noise coming from the engine?
The Lexus LS430 is probably the quietest vehicle in the world. Lexus does not use Noise Cancellation speakers. They just use good insulation, thick glass, and an quiet engine to begin with.
Idle: 45 dBA
Full Throttle: 77 dBA
70-mph: 70dBA
If we compare sedans to sedans, the 300C sedan is kind of loud.
At 70 mph, I believe the Camry is around 66 dBA and Accord is 67 dBA.
Minivans and SUVs are usually always louder than most sedans.
So perhaps the VCM is not very quiet.
IMO, in most modern cars, at cruising speeds yo udon't hear the engine much. It is usually wind or tire noise. Full throttle is another matter, but most people don't do that very often.
I haven't driven a 300C, but I was basing my comments on the review I read (that the car was quiet (engine wise) and that they couldn't tell when the VCM was in play).
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
FMC: Full Model Change
I have driven Dodge Caravan before, Sienna really feels like a Lexus. Have to admit I have not driven a Ody before, will test drive the existing model soon and wait for the Ody.
If you are looking to purchase the new Ody, would recommend renting the new sienna at your closest Toyota dealer. ($80 per day unlimited miles) You can take your family out, try out the car seats/seating configurations and really test its features. You really get to try out the Sienna and without any sales pressure.
I will wait for the Ody release and then buy the better of the Sienna/Ody based on the following factors(in order of importance)
(I am looking at Sienna XLE / Honda EX with entertainment)
Reliability
seating comfort and configuration ease
Price
safety features
entertainment feature
(without having to choose the topofline model/I dont need leather)
color availability (silver or white)
Luxury (interior)
noise level
(want to be able to talk to kids at cruising speeds with a/c at low)
Engine Power and smoothness
Looks (exterior)
Instrument Panel ergonomics/looks
Maintainance cost
Mileage
Some factors that make me a little uneasy about purchasing the new Ody
- wait lists
- high sticker price on introduction
- new model issues
- VCM
- road noise
Sienna negatives
- power
- interior height/console location
- 17 inch wheels only available in AWD
- have to get XLE for both power sliding doors
- looks from the front (I think it has a nice profile and rear)
I just wonder about the Active Noise-Cancellation speakers. Can we assume these speakers are on every time the engine is on? Are these the same seven speakers (6 speakers + 1 subwoofer) used for the stereo system and the NAV?
Doesn't this sound like spraying air freshener into a room with a bad odor, instead of getting rid of the bad odor to begin with?
Of course, I am really only guessing from the name, but here goes....
Any truly "active" noise-cancelling system would almost necessarily have it's own speaker. Otherwise the movements of the speaker cones would possibly be nullified by the conflicting sources: entertainment system and active noise cancellation system.
Actually, that same scenario is the premise behind active noise cancelling itself. Sound, which is described as if it were waves like in water, consists of varying pressures and frequencies of those pressures in air.
If a system could produce equal-and-opposite pressures/frequencies to an offending noise source (and this is claimed, though I've never personally witnessed such a system), then the offending noise would actually be cancelled by the interference of the anti-noise noise. Got it?
This differs from smells in that air fresheners only add more chemistry to the air in an attempt to mask the offensive odors. Deordorizers presumably attempt to absorb and remove the offending chemical components from the air.
However, noise cancelling attempts to neutralize the air movement itself (the sound) with counter air movements. You have experienced this same phenomenon in an undesirable way if you ever hooked up stereo speakers out of phase with each other (wires reversed from right speakers to left speakers). That condition causes mostly the base frequencies to be muted as the left and right speakers' emissions collide in close-to-opposite sequences and cancel out.
It is not as noticeable with high frequencies because those do not radiate outward as widely (they "beam" more, are more directional) and also because it is harder to end up with exact opposite waves the more frequent those waves are (i.e. "bigger" longer waves in base frequencies simply have more "distance" to overlap and cancel).
What impressed me the most was the ride. The new Sienna is a much more quieter ride than the Odyssey. I currently own a 2002 Odyssey. The Sienna also rides comfortable as does the Odyssey, but the Sienna has a much more quicker acceleration than the Odyssey. I suspect that is due to the Sienna's DOCH.
What the Sienna has over the Odyssey is: you don't hear much wind and road noise as you do in the Odyssey. I was so impressed with the Sienna that I've thought of trading my Odyssey in for one. However, I will wait to see what Honda does with the new Odyssey.
With what I've read on this board regarding some of what Honda will offer with the Odyssey, it should be an slam dunk if Honda fixes that wind and road noise.
The new Sienna really blew most of us away.
Can't wait to see the new Ody.
Wonder if it will blow us away like the new Sienna did.
Seems like a lot of talk about interior noise.
Some of us are concerned about road and wind noise of the Ody. Some of us are saying that it doesn't bother us as much as others. Some are saying that although the Ody is noisier, it's actually more fun to drive. Seems like a delima.
But really, who wants a nosier minivan? A noisy vehicle that you would take your family out on vacations? Or does it make more sense to own a quieter, more comfortable vehicle for your family? A vehicle with better brakes to provide better stopping distance just in case?
Would your wife and kids be better off in a quiet, smooth, comfortable minivan that has great safety features and great brakes?
Or would they be better off in a louder, harsher-riding-less-comfortable minivan with one of the worst stopping distance?
It will be very interesting to see the new Ody's stats, in particular the stopping distance. It better be just as good as the Sienna. If not as quiet, it better be close to the Sienna.
Sometimes I would tell myself that the noise factor and stopping distance do not bother me. Perhaps it would not if the Sienna had not existed. But since we all know what the Sienna is capable of, the new Ody will surely be tested and scrutinzed. I don't care what Car and Driver or any magazines rank the Sienna and Ody. There are two important areas I will look at. First is safety features and stopping distance. Second is comfort and quiet ride.
I will not fool myself into thinking that a louder, harsher ride, and pathetic stopping distance is okay and more fun to drive.
Sure, sound level is subjective. Some people actually think the Ody is very quiet.
When we compare, we have to compare one vehicle against vehicles of it's own class. That's why we compare the Sienna to Odyssey.
We can't compare a sedan to a minivan. True.
And I agree that just because one vehicle is quieter in terms of 1 dBA, it does not automatically mean it is quieter in "real life".
But if we compare two sedans: one with 66dBA and one with 70dBA. It just seems like the sedan with 70dBA is significanly louder. 4dBA levels is significant.
But okay, there may be other noise factors, not just engine noise. For all we know, the engine may be quiet, but the road and wind noise were high.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Is that technically a slightly higher air pressure without the modulation that makes it sound? I suppose that the energy coming from the equal-but-opposite sound sources (the offending noise and the added anti-noise noise) must be adding energy to the air (producing heat or increased pressure or both). But I doubt that the energy levels are sufficient to be noticeable by a normal human being. Of course, those of you who are extraordinary....? ;-)
All right, is that enough amateur physics over-analysis for everyone?
I have read in Car & Driver and elsewhere that Honda is redesigning the Odyssey for 2005, yet the Edmunds "Future Vehicles" area shows nothing and a Honda salesman told me today that there are just a few changes in store.
Thanks.
Only time will tell.
But thanks for the physics lession.
Now tell me why Car and Driver reports interior sound level dBA when it doesn't really tell us how loud or quiet a car is?
I think a Lexus LS430 is around 64 dBA and the Maybach ($380K) is 63 dBA at 70mph. If a Camry is 67 dBA and the Chrysler 300C is 70dBA, does that mean the LS430 compared to the Camry is like the Camry compared to the Chrysler 300C in sound level?
I think the arguement about noise level should be put to bed until you can actually drive one (or at least read a review), since no one knows for sure what it will sound like inside.
Anyway, my last noise comment is that the quality of the sound matters, not just the level. 70 db or your kids whining is a lot different than 70 db of your favorite music, a waterfall, etc.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Just like a rainbow is to your eyes, though, the noise effectiveness will appear different to everyone since the wavelengths of the "noise" vary across the spectrum from very long waves to very short waves and your ear placement will catch peaks and valleys at different distances from the source and its canceling "active" system in use depending on your orientation. Still, it is incredible how effective it can be.
Neat stuff - but it won't come for free.
Wonder if you could really apply this to an automobile? The kids lips move but you don't hear a thing...... Priceless!
Steve
To me, it comes down to whether the deposit is refundable. I just put $500 down (fully refundable at any time) to be on the top of our salesman's list when the 05's arrive.
Interest rates being what they are, that $500 was going to earn about $2 sitting in the bank so it was an easy decision.
Now I will sit back as the excitement builds and if I want the car, I will pick from the first allotment to come in. If the car disappoints, I will politely ask for my $500 back.
Meanwhile, thanks to all of you who somehow find and post the latest 'top secret' information about what to expect. I'll be reading.
You do sound like a Toyota/Luxus buyer though, as opposed to Honda/Acura/Infiniti.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
There is not one vehicle that has everything I want.
Honda/Acura has this, and Toyota/Lexus has that.
I can see it already. The new Ody will have the magnificent NAV and instrument panel, but the Sienna will have the gated shifter, woodtrim, quieter interior, and smoother ride. The new Ody may have other features the Sienna does not like 8th seat, better chrome grille, etc., but then the new Ody may lack other features the Sienna has like Laser Cruise, Intuitive Parking, etc.
On models w/NAV, the Ody will have in-dash 6 Disc changer while the Sienna will have a single CD player.
It will be tough. On certain days like yesterday, I lean towards the Sienna and other days, like today, I lean towards the Odyssey. I change my mind daily.
If I were to buy a mid-size sedan, it would NOT be a problem. It would be the Accord w/NAV all the way instead of the Camry w/NAV.
If I were to buy a compact sedan, it would be a Civic instead of a Corolla.
If I were to buy a Cross-over SUV, it would be a Pilot instead of a Highlander.
If I were to buy any Luxury sedan, it would be a Lexus instead of an Acura.
If I were to buy a Luxury SUV, it would be a Lexus instead of an Acura.
stickguy: Great points! I was going to mention the extremely low "quality of sound" ratings I would give to my beloved-children's shrieks. Even discounting the quality of the sound, I'm equally convinced that it would be nearly impossible to get really usable decibel readings with so many potential variables. I mean, maybe it was Winter when the Odyssey was tested and the driver and/or tester was wearing a down jacket (absorbing some noise)? Was there cloth or leather seating surfaces (I would imagine cloth is a better sound-absorber than leather)? Where was the decibel meter microphone placed each time and how well isolated from mounting-transmitted vibrations was it? Too many variables for any but the grossest of comparisons.
laundryguy: Thank you for the first hand report on an ANC system. Yours is far more trustworthy than the glowing "unbiased" reviews I usually see from the inventors/promoters/marketers.
There will be three big things I look forward to in the '05 Ody.
First, of course, is the awesome Touch-Voice 7" Navigation system and rearview camera.
Second is the beautiful electrofluorescent instrument panel.
Third is the great looking Acura-like chrome grille.
I just read on the Ody Club forum someone said he has actually seen the new '05 Ody being tested. He said he was not impressed with the exterior or interior and that the new Ody will not have both NAV and DVD RES on the same vehicle. So he bought the '04 Ody EX-L-RES instead. I hope not.
http://www.collegehillshonda.com/odyssey/05_exterior.htm
Look at the exterior accessory option for 2005 Odyssey. It lists the following trims: EXL, EXL-R, EXL-RN :-)
So if I can guess, I would say EXL-RN stands for EX with Leather, RES, and NAVI. So that should put all your worries to rest. Honda will indeed offer both as an option.
However, if I had the choice between factory NAV + factory DVD OR after market DVD+VCR+TV, I would pick the factory DVD 100% of the time.
I hate RF modulated audio, which is the case with ALL aftermarket DVD players. You have to turn your volume way up to hear anything and you will get some radio interference from time to time, depending on the radio stations around you.
If the new Ody has only one or the other intead of both DVD + NAV, I will definitely get the Sienna.
If the new Ody has only one or the other, it would most likely mean Honda will not match the Sienna in any way.
Sure, I like absolute quietness and smoothness, but there are other things to consider. Since it's obvious I can't have everything, I will have to pick one that has more of what I want.
For example, quieter ride or better NAV? I pick better NAV.
Laser Cruise Control or beautiful electrofluorescent instrument panel?
I pick the beautiful panel.
Something like that.
I've seen good woodtrim in the Honda Accord (dealer installed), why not the Odyssey since the Ody is suppose to get the Accord "treatment".
Point is, life is full of compromises. As Andrew so clearly articulates, you need to decide what is most important to you and base your decision on the available options. I won't get NAV, am particular about front seat comfort, and prefer agile handling and a firmer ride over a floaty ride/wallowy handling. I also want a moonroof, but don't want a power hatch (or even doors).
Does my ideal exist? Probably not, so I have to decide which of the available options comes closest, with price factored in obviously.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Steve
Now, the interior is a much bigger deal. I really like the seats in the new Accord, and love the dash and instruments. Transplant that stuff into the Ody, add a dash mounted shifter (ala Sienna), and I would be happy, especially if it has the built-in XM radio (I really want to try it).
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
It's never going to look like an exotic sports car like Porsche, NSX, etc.
It's never going to look like a luxury sedan like Lexus, Mercedes, BMW.
But the interior can look as good as anything out there.
Although I've always been a Toyota/Lexus fan, I am so proud of Honda for the Accord's interior looks. Yes, please give us that kind of look in the Odyssey and it's a winner. That Accord voice-activated NAV and steering wheel almost makes me want to cry :-)
Yeah, the outside can't look any better or worse.
Although I saw this pic on the Odyclub forum someone had played with in which he took the Ody shape and Acura RL shape and combined the two.
Oh my gosh! It looks better than any luxury SUV or minivan I've seen.
So I guess it is possible to have a great, sexy looking minivan. But it won't be a Honda or Toyota. It would have to be a Lexus or Acura.
I just wanted to retract my statement "If the new Ody has only one or the other intead of both DVD + NAV, I will definitely get the Sienna".
DVD isn't everything. Heck, it's not even for me. What am I thinking?
The NAV is for me:-)
Besides, Honda can put that DVD player right into the cup holder slot on the dash, unless they have totally changed the layout.
The game is still wide open, man.