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But even curmudgeony me draws the line at dictating what others decide. It is still a (relatively) free country! :-)
Toyota is now offering some of the Chrysler gimmicks like Power Liftgate, Separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger, overhead console with compass/outside temperature, etc.
Will the Sienna remain trouble free with all the new gimmicks?
I hope Honda will keep the Odyssey simple and reliable.
So it has abundant interior room compared to a minivan and is manly tough compared to any SUVs.
Invoice for top-of-the-line LE with NAV :-) is about $38K (MSRP $42K). I think invoice can easily be obtain at end of the year sale.
If the Armada does not sell well, we may be able to get more than $4K off MSRP.
Only two draw-backs: slightly ugly on exterior (except an awesome front chrome grill) and drinks gas like water (13 mpg city).
Like most convenience items (and, I suppose, like cell phones for those who've bought them -- everybody but me?!?), it is easy for these things to become accepted as almost-necessities. I must admit that I will likely consider them as such when the time comes to buy another vehicle and they would be greatly appreciated on the new Odyssey, I'm sure!
I can not imagine anyone getting a Nissan Armada after owning an Odyssey unless they want to go on an African Safari. Nissan reliability does not compare favorably with Honda and Toyota.
(For the non-physics/non-engineering folks, trust me that the physical demands on parts go up at a much greater rate than the weight increase would indicate -- IOW, if you add half-again the weight, you will need to add double, maybe triple or more to the strength of parts, torque of engine, stopping-ability of brakes, etc. just to stay close to the same reliability/acceleration/stopping distance/etc. of the lighter vehicle.)
I like Honda and Toyota very well indeed, don't mistake me. My 1995 Civic is still serving a friend of mine well (and I'll bet he isn't maintaining it like I did either!).
But, if you compare the numbers of problems and complaints as a percentage of the numbers of vehicles produced, I don't think you'll find such an obvious gap as there used to be. Even the annual Consumers Report Buying Guide shows the relative difference in reliability to be much less than just a few years ago.
Also, the features I mentioned are nice to have no matter your loyalty. It isn't a matter of whether Honda "needs to add them" or not. I'd still like to see them, because I've gotten used to them. I would miss not having them.
I suppose that makes me a sell out to comfort, convenience and the best deal for my family. But then, I've never been that much of a joiner anyway.
Each must decide for themselves, of course. And when it all comes down, you makes your best choice, you lays your money down, and you takes your chances! Happy driving, wherever your loyalties lie.... :-)
You state:
...after my rant (in another forum?) about silly "luxury" options but, hey, these are standard features on my Yukon XL, convenience items, not just for looks, and I've gotten spoiled by them: Automatic headlights, lighted window/door/mirror buttons on the door armrests, automatic speed-relative volume adjustment on the stereo, and the automatic climate control with the keep-peace-between-my-wife-and-me separate temperature controls for each front seat (plus another for the rear).
...spoiled or might that be duped...
You know you don't need it...Why do you value it? After you've learned the location of the buttons, don't you think you'd better have "memory" to find them when you need them? Opps, forgot, in a really complicated and feature rich environment, you need additional information in the environment to utilize the controls.
Simple is beautiful.
Hold that wood trim too.
Introduce gimicks that really don't add true value, which increase cost, and reduce reliability? To what, join the crowd? Why?
Seperate controls for each front seat? Are you talking heating and air, or are you talking heated seats? Even when I lived in the Northeast, I thought heated seats were excessive.
Speed relative volume adjustment on the stereo? LOL.
And to think, just yesterday I was looking for the Stereo defeat on the radio. Remember that? Please add that back in Honda.
Oh boy.
Don't get me wrong...take the leatherette if you must, but Honda has a winner and they don't need to up the ante to compete.
Laser cruise, power tailgate, 8 seats, parking assist, VSC. triplicate passive entertainment displays, yada yada.
Throw them (optionally) all onto the EX. Just leave the LX for the rest of us.
From my perspective, they'd kill the product by gimicing it up this way.
That said, I am all for letting automation have full reign with mindless and repetitive tasks (the stuff computers do well) to leave me free for the sort of analytical skills that humans do best (such as deciding what, out of the massive sensory input barrage, is critical to keeping my vehicle safely away from other vehicles and solid objects as I drive). So, I am contentedly duped into letting my vehicle decide when/if headlights or just DRLs are needed and letting my stereo adjust the volume to compensate for the increased road noise that increased speed brings.. Haven't you heard that adjusting the radio is rated pretty high on the list of accident-causing distractions?
I also appreciate the lighted buttons that provide me with an at-a-glance confirmation that I am working the correct window, or adjusting the outside mirrors as I desired. Again, these features leave me free to attend to the more critical driving tasks.
I'd also welcome any backup aid feature (though my vehicle has none) that would decrease the odds (even just a little) that I or my wife might accidentally crush some errant child some time. It's hard to place a value on a damaged or lost child's life once the deed is done.
On the other hand, when you get into leather seating surfaces, moon roofs, laser cruise control, power lift gates (unless I was physically impaired and that would help!), and even more the looks-only brush guards, gold badging packages and such trifles; then I will shout, "AMEN!" and "PREACH IT, BROTHER!" ;-)
However, I am opposed to it when it:
is seemingly for technology sake
is pushed on me by marketeers that think they know what I value
isn't easily understood
doesn't support my tasking
increases complexity beyond what seems appropriate
reduces reliability
raises doubts - my confidence in what it's doing
needlessly increases cost
makes my participation in the task (in this case driving) more passive
<<list artificially shortened>>
You might classify me as a late adopter of technology: No pager. No cell phone. No PDA. I consider myself pretty "free" in this regard, although lately, I find myself recommending a cell phone to my wife.
You might also classify me as overly thrifty and/or cheap: No DVD. No satellite (GPS, radio, video or otherwise). No cable (video or NET access).
Honda's ODY vehicle isn't made better with more gimicks. Sure sure, side curtains and backup sonar sensors. I'd consider both.
VSC? DRLs? Laser Cruise? 4WD?
Nope.
I do have: a cell phone, DVD player, PDA (those cheap ones from CompUSA that are free the day after Thanksgiving and are junk)and broadband internet access.
Let Chrysler and Sienna have the battle over who can put the most gimmicks on a minivan. Let Nissan hold title to the most radical minivan, Mazda have title to the smallest minivan and Kia remain the undisputed gas guzzler at the cheapest price.
Toyota has 3 Trim Level, really 4 with the XLE LTD where the Sienna can get loaded up, but they can hit all the market segments. In looking at the options for the XLE LTD, it is more like a Lexus than a Toyota.
I am into Technology (Cell Phones, PDA, Handheld GPS, TIVO, Wifi) so the Sienna appeals to me. SO brings on the gadgets. I will buy an extended warranty to cover any unexpected problems.
I feel HID headlights are a safety issue, when you drive with them you get spoiled. so the only way i can get that is to go the xle ltd, which i feel is wrong, the question should be "how come toyota has such a confusing option mix" HOnda should simplify.
one gimmick i wish i could eliminate from an option list is the sunroof/moonroof--now come on why have this if you have windows and dual zone AC??
the other side of the coin, is competition, toyota and nissan and to some extent chysler have put down in the gauntlet--with a fixed pie everyone will be fighting for market share especially chrysler. but if the "gimmicks" you talk about will be there, the question is the option mix. Honda is nice to have a nav system without getting all other junk. Gimmicks? we should be talking of bundling less. I should be able to get nav in more than a few models. honda's success will not be in reducing 'gimmicks' but a fairer options groupings
i agree about the bundling. Toyota is seemingly making it both confusing (and difficult) for people to actually order and get the van they want and expect. i think that cheapens the vehicle, but that's just my impression based on what i read over in their forums. The situation will eventually get better when production is up, and demand softens, but in the meantime, it seems tough for some people to get the car.
if you are the type that likes "configuring" your vehicle from a plethora of options with interesting inter-dependancies and exclusions, then well that's cool...it's like it's a vehicle designed to be ordered over the web (with lots of teeny-tiny drop down lists and radio buttons from which to choose everything)
i don't buy (or search, or wait, or wonder if it's possible to configure, order, manufacture and deliver in a timely manner) a vehicle with that complicated an option mix. i like to drive the vehicle i potentially buy - not just look at someone elses car that's being prepped for delivery to the final owner.
but, i'm not everybody.
it seems logical though that you don't differentiate yourself by running with the crowd.
you want Honda to simplify?
well, they've already done that haven't they by offering two trim lines and then some add-ons for either level?
are you arguing instead they they should just load up (to some more or lesser degree) both lines with more stuff, but keep the number of standard offerings to two? are you advocating there should be more dealer installable options?
i personally did indicate what options i wouldn't value in my post: laser cruise, DRLs, VSC, 4WD. Add to that entertainment systems, NAV, HID, power lift gate, radios that self adjust their volume or perform noise cancellation, passenger side adjusting mirrors for backing up, moon roofs sun roofs, 8seats, alloys, interior floor mats (at additional price - ha ha)....
Does all that make me a Luddite dako_tian?
To all dealers, the new model is coming out. They will be coming in 4 months, and you have 4 months to create space for the new model, so clear out the old ones as fast as you can!
Then the dealer will start giving away the previous generation and getting ready to put in the new showroom display and all the brochures.
jchan2 you are saying that it will be in showrooms in 4 months, who told you that? because i heard that it wont be until FALL 2004. BUT IF IT IS IN 4 MONTHS, THAT IS GREAT!!!!
With the upcoming car shows, where concepts will be displayed, with the Odyssey be on display?
http://thehollywoodextra.com/honda/honda.html
The article is on the second page and posted at: www.iht.com/articles/123198.html
Haven't heard that rumour anywhere else yet.
Don
Any Talladega residents in this forum?
Lincoln Alabama: Odysseys
East Liberty Ohio: Civic, Element
Marysville Ohio: Accord Coupe, Accord Sedan, TL
Those are the cars I know come from which plant. I don't know where the CR-V rolls off the line, but East Liberty would be logical as it is Civic-based. I'm pretty sure the Civic Si is made in Europe/Japan, as is the TSX and RL. I know the S2000 is made somewhere in Japan.
S2000, RL and TSX - Japan only