Even though the slab-sided look is popular in many recent designs, most of us do have to drive & park in the "real world," and frankly I like having the side-protection strips on my E46. Those smooth door panels on cars like the new 5-series, Acura TL, etc. are just begging to get dinged in a parking lot (or when your kid opens the door of Mom's car in your garage -- DAMHIK).
Before deciding on my E46, I was looking at the TSX and TL and in some of the forums for those cars owners were talking about "dealer installed" rub strip options. But the way those cars are styled, a stick-on side strip really does look "stuck on."
Anyway, the new styling certainly looks clean in pictures and on the showroom floor, but how will it hold up in practice? The sheet metal on today's cars is certainly thinner than it used to be and it doesn't take much to ding it.
The car will get dinged with or without protective strips unless you do not park close to other vehicles. All doors do not line up at the the height. Also, those are not real photos of the car anyway, so it is early to jump to conclusions.
To me the styling change is quite conservative and not radical enough! Which is good, I like it that way.
Hopefully the changes in the performance/handling specs will not be subtle. I will only buy a future 3 series if the performance/handling data is much improved from the existing models. Otherwise I will just stick with my 99 323i and wait for something that really excites(whether it will be a BMW or not)
i know i wasn't dreaming because i got out of my car and looked at it. It was a black 330i. I am positive i saw it. It was really beautiful and it looked just like a combination of the new 5 and old 3. It looked like it does in the pictures except the only distinctive thing i saw about it was that the mirrors were very boxy figured and didnt have round edges. The photos didn't show that or maybe there isn't enought definition in them. Anyway, i am wondering if its possible this car was imported or what. i forgot to check the license plate but is it possible it oculd have gotten over to me at the US?
amen to that the rear end is the biggest problem of the design.
to tell you the truth i kinda like the clean styling, though i find the thinner sheetmetal quite a problem, as it will get dinged so easily, lets just hope they'll never go as thin as honda Accord's
if the real 3 will look similar to the blue car in the pic, ill definitely consider it, of course w/ a little work on the tail lights but i-drive will turn me off for sure. currently ill just stick to the current 3, and ill consider the new 3 in about 2 yrs or so
I believe you. I saw the new Vette in Dallas a few months back. On a related topic, I wonder what the earliest date to buy the new 3 would be. Aug/Sep next year would be the normal time, at a local dealership. They come out six months ahead in Europe, I think. So, if you did an ED, could you get an American spec six months before everyone else?
It is doubtful you could get ED any sooner... The ED cars are still US spec and my guess is they will be coming off the line at the same time as the rest of the US cars.
dantheman11, you said you saw the new 3 already? thats pretty odd, cos my cousin in frankfurt said theyre not even for sale yet... of course, if its true then ill definitely have to see it how does it look then, anything close to the photoshopped blue car on the previous page?
You're probably right, in that the US ED cars will be rolling off the lines at the same time as the ones being shipped here. I wonder if the dealers will still offer the ED discount with a new body style. If it's still warm, & I can get the discount, I might go the ED route.
I would have prefered the car to be a bit more like the Z5, with a lower profile and "edgy" designs, but I'm sure I'll like it anyway...."a rose by any other name..."
The dealer is not offering a "discount." The MSRP is lower on ED cars along with their cost for the car. The ED MSRPs are listed on the BMW website and when the 2006 models with the new body style come out, the prices would be listed there also.
hmm...how much do i have to pay to get it shipped to US later on? anyone know? i wish the total cost for ED will be cheaper than getting one in US, but i think its impossible
Tons of information is available about ED. Do a search on eurobuyers here. typically people work out a deal with the dealer getting $1000-1400 profit on a euro delivery car. This in turn usually works out to a sub invoice to invoice price for buyers. why would a dealer do this? it's straight profit for them as they simply send in your order and they don't really do anything after that - plus the sale doesn't come from their allocation.
as for shipping, that's about $600 bones - the same as when you buy a BMW. the only difference is you must fly to europe and drive your car to the port.
i looked into it but ended up getting a better deal buying off the lot. the cost of a flight to germany and spending even a few days there totally offsets the savings on a 3. If one is buying a 7 or 6 it's a nice savings.
then again some view going to europe as a vacation. to each his own. when i go on vacation i want to go to fun places.
The price of the shipping to the US is included in the ED MSRP plus destination.. No different than if you were buying a car in the US. It is cheaper, because by taking delivery overseas, BMW gets out of paying some duties and taxes... That is why you have to pick it up yourself.. You can't send your uncle or cousin to do it for you. It gets shipped over the same way as the new cars, you just have to drop it off at the shipping agent.
They told me that while they don't have anything official yet, they are expecting the new 3 series in the Feb/Mar 2005 timeframe. While I was there I drove a 330 Coupe with the SMG transmission. It totally rocks!!! No question the replacement for my 2002 325i Touring will have SMG.
I'm going to miss having a Touring -- it is a true Sport Utility Vehicle, not a Stupid Useless Vehicle that the vast majority of people (IMHO, fools) in this country are so in love with. But it sounds like the new model won't be making it across the Atlantic. Just don't understand why people here don't like hatchbacks and wagons, but will buy an H2 or an Expedition.
station wagons and minivans convey the message of a frumpy mom, henpecked dad, someone whose finances are squeezed so tight they couldn't spring for the extra money to get an SUV,etc.
also, don't knock it until you try it. i've driven station wagons and SUVs and prefer the SUV b/c i don't have to bend my damn back hauling my 30 lb. and growing kid in and out of the car seat.
The heck with image, I would rather be driving a touring with beter handling/performance than an X series. If the cost of driving a better driving vehicle is an image thing, than that is a low cost indeed. Especially since the Jones and Smiths next door are not going to be driving my vehicle.
It would be great to have the US models out in Jan/Feb 2005, but I thought the new models usually come out around September. Can anyone confirm the approximate date of availablity?
The latest rumor: US spec E90 production to start in March '05, with first models arriving stateside in May or June of '05 as '06 models... Sedans only at first. That is all I have, right now.
Why is there this rumor? Does BMW ever release a new series in spring? Don't they ***ALWAYS*** release a new series in the US in late fall? Was the 1999 E46 released to the US in spring? What about the new 5 series and the new 7 series before that? Why would the 2006 3 Series be any different?
No. The 6 and X3 are variants of existing platforms, not an all-new series like the 3, 5 and 7. So, things like that and convertible, M or wagon variants of existing models are more likely to come out at odd times than a completely new platform like the launch of a new sedan.
The "rumor" came from a BMW salesman who got it from his regional sales manager. He "told" me about it on another BMW forum. Take it for what it is worth.. But, nothing **ALWAYS** happens the same way at BMW. It is a EURO company that takes care of their home market first. They introduced '04 convertibles last April. Acura put the all-new '04 Acura TSX on sale last April. They can bring it out whenever they want.
Kyfdx-Next Summer would be great. If they come out in the Fall, I would have to wait till the next Summer ('06), as I want to make a trip out of it.
I spoke to my local salesman. He thinks it will be in the Fall. My theory is that the sooner the better. In-the-mean-time, it would be nice to get a good look at what the new model will look like. I know that there are a lot of spy shots, but BMW should do a little more promoting with good official shots on their web site.
The only trouble with promoting too far in advance, is it generally kills sales of the current model. If they are starting production on Euro market cars in November, then I'm guessing we will start seeing them at Euro auto shows in September-October.
the start of brand new model lines (ie, TSX, X3, 6-series) can come out off-cycle but new versions of an existing model come out during their traditional time frames (ie, Fall for most makes and Dec/Jan for others).
Yes, they always release new models of existing series in fall on the full moon in years ending with even numbers or divisible by 3 - unless it's a leap year, then it's a quarter moon.
2005 will be a very significant year for everyone associated with BMW–it will be the year of the new 3 Series. The new model will be previewed for the public at the Geneva Auto Show in March, and we are planning a National Dealer Meeting, including a driving experience, late April in Miami.
BMW has traditionally conducted a one-day national dealer meeting when there is a time gap between model introduction meetings. We considered having such a meeting in November or December of this year, but feel it will be more practical in these times of spirited competition and “too many meetings” to use other types of communications to keep you up to date on business developments between now and the 3 Series introduction. Additional time at home preparing for the holidays is always welcomed.
Sorry I started the "When" string. On a related topic, here's a note from a guy that participated on a BMW focus group. I don't know this person, but the detail is compelling.
By a stroke of luck, I was able to attend the Research Design Specialists vehicle evaluation survey/focus group (invitation only). The purpose was to help BMW evaluate future designs. From what I can tell, this is the same event that Emission's friend attended, and it was an opportunity I couldn't pass up, even if it meant giving up 2.5 hrs on a Friday night. The fact that it paid $150.00 also helped. This was an East coast focus group.
Of course, no pictures were permitted. Security was tight for obvious reasons, and no cell phones, photographic equipment or 2-way pagers were permitted. They used metal detectors and thoroughly frisked you. Lift your pant legs, show us your watch, empty your pockets, etc. They meant business. Personal items were required to be placed in small envelopes which you could claim later. You may as well have been entering a high security prison.
Enter the showroom...
Inside are 6 cars: 1. Audi A4 3.0 2. BMW 330i 3. Infiniti G35 Sedan 4. Mercedes C class 5. BMW E90 sedan prototype 6. BMW E60 530i
The exercise consisted of approximately 7 different subjective tests (rating exterior and interior qualities, based on looks, comfort, etc.) on a scale of 1-5, 1 being the worst, 5 being the best. Additionally there were 3 different pricing tests (how much would you want to pay type questions). You rated all the cars, sat in all of them, etc. It was BMW's way of determining who is their direct competition and what levels of quality they need to live up to.
The E60 was there for 2 purposes, to judge the quality of the E90 prototype (do you like it better or worse) and to determine what specifically you find objectionable about the E60 (for their early market research when it's due for a facelift).
So let's cut to the chase. Let's talk about the E90 (and accepting fully it is a prototype and subject to change).
Exterior design:
First of all, none of the computer enhanced photos are accurate. I've been on the Fest for a while and seen them all. No match.
Front: Kidney grill is roughly the same size as the current 3er, however it now has the extra-wide top like the 6er. The headlights are a hybrid between the E46 sedan (post facelift), and the Z4. You have the same side profile as the Z4 on the headlights (it looks exactly like the Z4, including the bumper curves and criss-cross cut lines near the headlights from the front quarter view), but looking dead on, the turn signals wrap above and below the headlight (yes, that means eyebrows on top, and some on the bottom). The headlights look nothing like the X3 headlights which many of the computer enhancements have suggested. I did see angel eyes.
The bumper looks very similar to the RX8. Envision the Mazda RX8 with a smaller center air dam, and 2 kidneys right above it and you have a good idea of what it looks like. The hood does not integrate with the kidneys (the hood line cuts right above the kidneys). Like the E60, the kidney grills have an unusual indentation that melds into the bumper a bit, creating the appearance of a ring surrounding the kidneys and the center air dam.
The hood is closer to the E46 in size, but incorporates a touch of the E60 where the hood cuts into the side panels slightly. It is not very severe, just a hint of the cut. I found it pleasant.
Side: The car has no side moldings, which basically makes it slab sided like the 5. That said, they look more like the E46 than the E60, so they retain the raised upper portion that wraps around the car, and the lower portion is flat. The rocker panels look like the current E46 but a little bit flamed. Windows are roughly the same as the current E46, so evolutionary,not revolutionary. There is NO Zorro style cut on the side.
Trunk: It has NO Bangle butt period. In fact, the trunk does not even cut into the rear quarter panels at all. However the rear lights are evolutionary on the E60. They are smaller and less slanty, but retain the unusual shape of the rear lights. IMHO, they are the worst part of the car - they do not look like they belong at all.
Interior: The interior is evolutionary on the E60. That means there are only 2 primary gauges facing you. HVAC are controlled with dials. The stereo is different; it was not functional so I couldn't tell you much about the design. It looked pretty nice aesthetically.
There was no I-Drive in the prototype. However, there was an area that looked like it was straight out of the Z4 where an I-Drive video pod could possibly exist. I suspect that means I-Drive/Navigation will be an optional center pod.
The interior is very flat and looked like the Z4. It is not driver oriented. Ergonomically, the 6 speed manual felt unusually high and too far to the right. Anyway, the Z4-esque interior pretty much means BMW is officially doing away with the driver-oriented angling of the center console area. The "T" style design is in.
Window switches have moved to the door. The buttons are tiny. My relatively average hands could easily hit 2 buttons at the same time.
The car has a start button mounted on the right, and appeared to use the key system like in the E65.
Steering wheel is cross between the E60 and E46. I thought it was pretty tasteful, and did not have any radical departures like you saw in the Z4. It was not multi-function in the prototype, but we were told it would be.
Engine: They appear to be entertaining a 3.5L 290hp engine and a 3.0L 250hp engine, based on some of the survey questions (like what would you pay for a 250hp 330i, etc.) Sounds like they're upping the power to compete with the G35.
Price: The target price appears to be the same as the E46, give or take a little. As has been said before, the 3er is the bread and butter of BMW's line-up and they cannot price themselves out of it.
Overall design evaluation: You can tell it's a 3 series. That's the good part. However, it seems like every BMW in the model line up is so dramatically different style-wise that the only thing that keeps the model lines consistent is the BMW logo. This is bad.
Personally, I didn't like it. It is definitely a design you get used to. It is not a classic design that you immediately fall in love with. I suspect most people will get used to it relatively easily, and I think there is potential. However, it looks like they're trying too hard, and that makes me uncomfortable as a current BMW owner.
Now here's the real disappointment: As enthusiasts, we are very protective of the BMW marque and how we feel the marque being represented by these new designs. Love or hate it, we are passionate about it. In my opinion, this makes us good survey candidates. We will argue about it until we are blue in the face, but we will do anything to protect what we feel
This is indeed a well written detailed observation. Definitely enlightening. I have seen this before on another board somewhere however. But, appreciate reading it again. Thanks.
A year and a half ago I was looking to buy a 3 Series but decided to wait. I am still waiting for this new 3 series sedan to come out. Maybe i should of pulled the trigger on the 330ci back in Nov 2003 but I really wanted to see the new body style of the 3 series. Didn't want to buy a car and have it outdated.
So, there really doesn't seem to be much agreement on when the 3 series sedan will be available in the U.S. Sounds like not until 2qtr 2005 at least though.
Here is a question for all of you:::::::::::::::::
Why wouldn't BMW bring out their new 3 series to compete with the New AUDI A6 V6 & V8 coming out in Nov of this year?
If the 3 series will have a V6 with 250hp and a V8 option with over 300hp, that coincides exactly with what Audi is doing.
I agree with you that the 3 series is due for an update, especially in the power department. However, BMW has the long 7 year product cycle. When the current 3 series was introduced in '99, BMW stated that the redisgn would not be until '05 or '06. While the inline sixes are smooth and refined, 184 and 225 hp is just not enough anymore to be competitive.
This is like never buying a computer for the same reason. No matter what you buy it will become obsolete eventually. Rest assured even now the 330i bests its competition in all areas but one: price.
So, there really doesn't seem to be much agreement on when the 3 series sedan will be available in the U.S. Sounds like not until 2qtr 2005 at least though.
May 2005 sounds safe.
Why wouldn't BMW bring out their new 3 series to compete with the New AUDI A6 V6 & V8 coming out in Nov of this year?
Because the 3 competes with the A4 - which was new a couple years ago and still can't touch the 3. audi's an afterthought. The real pressure is coming from Infiniti and Acura.
The 5 competes with the A6.
If the 3 series will have a V6 with 250hp and a V8 option with over 300hp, that coincides exactly with what Audi is doing.
No it doesn't. The Base 3 supposedly will sport a base 250 hp 3L. That obliterates the A4's pathetic 1.8T (170 hp) and anemic 3.0 V6 (220 I believe). Regardless, the A4 is a tubby car that's underpowered with everything but the S4's V8. Additionally, the 4.0L V8 BMW is matching to the next gen 3 will sport 400 HP and BMW horsies are always bigger than the kind Audi puts in their car.
While the inline sixes are smooth and refined, 184 and 225 hp is just not enough anymore to be competitive.
That's rubbish. My 330i performance package with its measely 235 HP can take a G35 (260 HP) and a TL (270 HP) right now in handling and straightline acceleration. The e46 chassis was released in 1998 and it's still outperforming the designs of the 2001/2 G35/Skyline front midship platform and the Acura's 2003 TL. The comp had 4 -5 years to build a better boat and they still haven't.
Drive them all back to back. The G feels strong but also big and the suspension isn't nearly smooth enough. The TL is FWD...nuff said.
While your 330i with performance pkg. may be able to take a G35 and Acura TL (I have not seen a comparison test in the major mags or driven them back to back to verify), it costs 10k more. I never said the 3 series was underpowered-just that it no longer gives competitve performance considering its lofty pricing. The G35 and Acura align with the 325 in pricing. The 330 is roughly 6k more and the performance pkg even amplifies the price difference. I've posted before that I would buy the 330i because it is the most refined overall package, but I don't care to spend 40k when similarly perfoming cars can be had for a lot less. I believe that the 3 series needs a power increase or lower pricing to maintain its position as best in class. I would guess that the cost difference for BMW to build a 325 vs a 330 is probably only a few hundred dollars at most, yet they sell it for 6k more. If they sold a 330 as the base model for the same price as the current 325, and had a 335 available at the price of the current 330--I would be first in line at the dealership. But at the current price structure, I will pass on BMW. If a 250hp 3.0 engine becomes standard for the '06 redesign and the price is not much above the 325 now, I predict that BMW will both maintain their position as the leader but also increase their market share.
If they sold a 330 as the base model for the same price as the current 325, and had a 335 available at the price of the current 330--I would be first in line at the dealership.
That's a big IF. I would bet the ranch that what you're hoping for isn't going to happen.
My 330i performance package with its measely 235 HP can take a G35 (260 HP) and a TL (270 HP) right now in handling and straightline acceleration.
blueguy, I thought the 330i had 225 HP? And are you sure you can take a G35 and TL on straights? Most car mag comparos I've seen, the 330 is beaten by a narrow margin.
Also, it's a bit of an unfair comparo b/c the 3 series is a LOT smaller than the G35 and TL, so you're comparing handling dynamics of a smaller car to midsized cars.
It does. I have the 330i with the performance package - which means 235 HP, different gearing, different differential, different cams, headers, ecu, no speed limiter, revised suspension, etc.
And are you sure you can take a G35 and TL on straights? Most car mag comparos I've seen, the 330 is beaten by a narrow margin.
Bring them on. The TL and G are fierce competitors but still considering they had more time to develop, it's a shock they aren't better. Also, it's a bit of an unfair comparo b/c the 3 series is a LOT smaller than the G35 and TL, so you're comparing handling dynamics of a smaller car to midsized cars.
Same class - all are entry level lux. They're squarely aiming at the 3. That is their stated competition. Nothing unfair about it...save for the fact my car is a 7 Model Year old design.
Same class - all are entry level lux. They're squarely aiming at the 3. That is their stated competition. Nothing unfair about it...save for the fact my car is a 7 Model Year old design.
Well TL is FWD so the fact that its chassis ain't better is not indicative of inferior engineering, it's just wrong wheel drive for performance.
The FM is a new platform, and supposedly Nissan's improved it for the M35/45 coming out so we'll see.
I still think performance comparos should be 5 series vs. TL and G35 based on size, but it doesn't matter much to me either way. If the new 3 series does get a 250HP straight 6, it should smoke both the TL and G35 no problem. I'd guess the new 530 would also win, but it'd be close.
"They appear to be entertaining a 3.5L 290hp engine and a 3.0L 250hp engine"
Assuming the above assertion is true and that the 3.0L becsomes the base model, will that mean the future 330 will be priced similarily to the current 325 model? If there is a major price hike, then sales volume of the 3 series will decline! Most 3 series in US are 325s and that is mainly because of affordability. Here in Canada we have a 320 with a 2.2L. The 320 is a big seller--mainly due to affordability(in Canada we have to settle for less since CDN$s are not as valuable as your US$s)
I believe that BMW would have no choice but to price the future 330 as a current 325. Otherwise the competition will get quite rough and BMW will lose its Sports Sedan Benchmark role.
Comments
Before deciding on my E46, I was looking at the TSX and TL and in some of the forums for those cars owners were talking about "dealer installed" rub strip options. But the way those cars are styled, a stick-on side strip really does look "stuck on."
Anyway, the new styling certainly looks clean in pictures and on the showroom floor, but how will it hold up in practice? The sheet metal on today's cars is certainly thinner than it used to be and it doesn't take much to ding it.
All doors do not line up at the the height.
Also, those are not real photos of the car anyway, so it is early to jump to conclusions.
Hopefully the changes in the performance/handling specs will not be subtle. I will only buy a future 3 series if the performance/handling data is much improved from the existing models. Otherwise I will just stick with my 99 323i and wait for something that really excites(whether it will be a BMW or not)
ksso
to tell you the truth i kinda like the clean styling, though i find the thinner sheetmetal quite a problem, as it will get dinged so easily, lets just hope they'll never go as thin as honda Accord's
if the real 3 will look similar to the blue car in the pic, ill definitely consider it, of course w/ a little work on the tail lights
but i-drive will turn me off for sure. currently ill just stick to the current 3, and ill consider the new 3 in about 2 yrs or so
regards,
kyfdx
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
By get you mean drive it for a bit in europe, then wait for it to get shipped here.
of course, if its true then ill definitely have to see it
I would have prefered the car to be a bit more like the Z5, with a lower profile and "edgy" designs, but I'm sure I'll like it anyway...."a rose by any other name..."
The ED MSRPs are listed on the BMW website and when the 2006 models with the new body style come out, the prices would be listed there also.
Check it out: http://www.bmwusa.com/Joy/EuropeanDelivery/
i wish the total cost for ED will be cheaper than getting one in US, but i think its impossible
as for shipping, that's about $600 bones - the same as when you buy a BMW. the only difference is you must fly to europe and drive your car to the port.
i looked into it but ended up getting a better deal buying off the lot. the cost of a flight to germany and spending even a few days there totally offsets the savings on a 3. If one is buying a 7 or 6 it's a nice savings.
then again some view going to europe as a vacation. to each his own. when i go on vacation i want to go to fun places.
regards,
kyfdx
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
I'm going to miss having a Touring -- it is a true Sport Utility Vehicle, not a Stupid Useless Vehicle that the vast majority of people (IMHO, fools) in this country are so in love with. But it sounds like the new model won't be making it across the Atlantic. Just don't understand why people here don't like hatchbacks and wagons, but will buy an H2 or an Expedition.
also, don't knock it until you try it. i've driven station wagons and SUVs and prefer the SUV b/c i don't have to bend my damn back hauling my 30 lb. and growing kid in and out of the car seat.
Wow, that's exactly what I think of when I see a person in a SUV.
Then again, an SUV is nothing more than a tall station wagon.
If the cost of driving a better driving vehicle is an image thing, than that is a low cost indeed. Especially since the Jones and Smiths next door are not going to be driving my vehicle.
regards,
kyfdx
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
Does BMW ever release a new series in spring? Don't they ***ALWAYS*** release a new series in the US in late fall?
Was the 1999 E46 released to the US in spring? What about the new 5 series and the new 7 series before that?
Why would the 2006 3 Series be any different?
The X3 arrived in Feb and the 6 a bit later.
The 6 and X3 are variants of existing platforms, not an all-new series like the 3, 5 and 7. So, things like that and convertible, M or wagon variants of existing models are more likely to come out at odd times than a completely new platform like the launch of a new sedan.
I think blueguydotcom is right on this one.
regards,
kyfdx
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
I spoke to my local salesman. He thinks it will be in the Fall. My theory is that the sooner the better. In-the-mean-time, it would be nice to get a good look at what the new model will look like. I know that there are a lot of spy shots, but BMW should do a little more promoting with good official shots on their web site.
regards,
kyfdx (who guesses a lot)
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
Dear Ladies and Gentlemen:
2005 will be a very significant year for everyone associated with
BMW–it will be the year of the new 3 Series. The new model will be
previewed for the public at the Geneva Auto Show in March, and we
are planning a National Dealer Meeting, including a driving
experience, late April in Miami.
BMW has traditionally conducted a one-day national dealer meeting
when there is a time gap between model introduction meetings. We
considered having such a meeting in November or December of this
year, but feel it will be more practical in these times of spirited
competition and “too many meetings” to use other types of
communications to keep you up to date on business developments
between now and the 3 Series introduction. Additional time at
home preparing for the holidays is always welcomed.
Yours sincerely,
Tom Purves
BMWNA
Chairman & CEO
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
By a stroke of luck, I was able to attend the Research Design Specialists vehicle evaluation survey/focus group (invitation only). The purpose was to help BMW evaluate future designs. From what I can tell, this is the same event that Emission's friend attended, and it was an opportunity I couldn't pass up, even if it meant giving up 2.5 hrs on a Friday night.
The fact that it paid $150.00 also helped. This was an East coast focus
group.
Of course, no pictures were permitted. Security was tight for obvious reasons, and no cell phones, photographic equipment or 2-way pagers were permitted. They used metal detectors and thoroughly frisked you. Lift your pant legs, show us your watch, empty your pockets, etc. They meant
business. Personal items were required to be placed in small envelopes which you could claim later. You may as well have been entering a high
security prison.
Enter the showroom...
Inside are 6 cars:
1. Audi A4 3.0
2. BMW 330i
3. Infiniti G35 Sedan
4. Mercedes C class
5. BMW E90 sedan prototype
6. BMW E60 530i
The exercise consisted of approximately 7 different subjective tests (rating exterior and interior qualities, based on looks, comfort, etc.) on a scale of 1-5, 1 being the worst, 5 being the best. Additionally there were 3 different pricing tests (how much would you want to pay type questions). You rated all the cars, sat in all of them, etc. It was BMW's way of determining who is their direct competition and what levels of quality they need to live up to.
The E60 was there for 2 purposes, to judge the quality of the E90 prototype (do you like it better or worse) and to determine what specifically you find objectionable about the E60 (for their early market research when it's due for a facelift).
So let's cut to the chase. Let's talk about the E90 (and accepting fully it is a prototype and subject to change).
Exterior design:
First of all, none of the computer enhanced photos are accurate. I've been on the Fest for a while and seen them all. No match.
Front:
Kidney grill is roughly the same size as the current 3er, however it now has the extra-wide top like the 6er. The headlights are a hybrid between the E46 sedan (post facelift), and the Z4. You have the same side profile as the Z4 on the headlights (it looks exactly like the Z4, including the bumper curves and criss-cross cut lines near the headlights from the front
quarter view), but looking dead on, the turn signals wrap above and below the headlight (yes, that means eyebrows on top, and some on the bottom). The headlights look nothing like the X3 headlights which many of the computer enhancements have suggested. I did see angel eyes.
The bumper looks very similar to the RX8. Envision the Mazda RX8 with a smaller center air dam, and 2 kidneys right above it and you have a good idea of what it looks like. The hood does not integrate with the kidneys (the hood line cuts right above the kidneys). Like the E60, the kidney grills have an unusual indentation that melds into the bumper a bit, creating the appearance of a ring surrounding the kidneys and the center air dam.
The hood is closer to the E46 in size, but incorporates a touch of the E60 where the hood cuts into the side panels slightly. It is not very severe, just a hint of the cut. I found it pleasant.
Side:
The car has no side moldings, which basically makes it slab sided like the 5. That said, they look more like the E46 than the E60, so they retain the raised upper portion that wraps around the car, and the lower portion is flat. The rocker panels look like the current E46 but a little bit flamed. Windows are roughly the same as the current E46, so evolutionary,not revolutionary. There is NO Zorro style cut on the side.
Trunk:
It has NO Bangle butt period. In fact, the trunk does not even cut into the rear quarter panels at all. However the rear lights are evolutionary
on the E60. They are smaller and less slanty, but retain the unusual shape of the rear lights. IMHO, they are the worst part of the car - they
do not look like they belong at all.
Interior:
The interior is evolutionary on the E60. That means there are only 2 primary gauges facing you. HVAC are controlled with dials. The stereo is
different; it was not functional so I couldn't tell you much about the design. It looked pretty nice aesthetically.
There was no I-Drive in the prototype. However, there was an area that looked like it was straight out of the Z4 where an I-Drive video pod could possibly exist. I suspect that means I-Drive/Navigation will be an optional center pod.
The interior is very flat and looked like the Z4. It is not driver oriented. Ergonomically, the 6 speed manual felt unusually high and too
far to the right. Anyway, the Z4-esque interior pretty much means BMW is officially doing away with the driver-oriented angling of the center
console area. The "T" style design is in.
Window switches have moved to the door. The buttons are tiny. My relatively average hands could easily hit 2 buttons at the same time.
The car has a start button mounted on the right, and appeared to use the key system like in the E65.
Steering wheel is cross between the E60 and E46. I thought it was pretty tasteful, and did not have any radical departures like you saw in the Z4. It was not multi-function in the prototype, but we were told it would be.
Engine:
They appear to be entertaining a 3.5L 290hp engine and a 3.0L 250hp engine, based on some of the survey questions (like what would you pay for
a 250hp 330i, etc.) Sounds like they're upping the power to compete with the G35.
Price:
The target price appears to be the same as the E46, give or take a little. As has been said before, the 3er is the bread and butter of BMW's line-up and they cannot price themselves out of it.
Overall design evaluation:
You can tell it's a 3 series. That's the good part. However, it seems like every BMW in the model line up is so dramatically different
style-wise that the only thing that keeps the model lines consistent is the BMW logo. This is bad.
Personally, I didn't like it. It is definitely a design you get used to. It is not a classic design that you immediately fall in love with. I
suspect most people will get used to it relatively easily, and I think there is potential. However, it looks like they're trying too hard, and that makes me uncomfortable as a current BMW owner.
Now here's the real disappointment:
As enthusiasts, we are very protective of the BMW marque and how we feel the marque being represented by these new designs. Love or hate it, we are passionate about it. In my opinion, this makes us good survey candidates. We will argue about it until we are blue in the face, but we will do anything to protect what we feel
So, there really doesn't seem to be much agreement on when the 3 series sedan will be available in the U.S. Sounds like not until 2qtr 2005 at least though.
Here is a question for all of you:::::::::::::::::
Why wouldn't BMW bring out their new 3 series to compete with the New AUDI A6 V6 & V8 coming out in Nov of this year?
If the 3 series will have a V6 with 250hp and a V8 option with over 300hp, that coincides exactly with what Audi is doing.
Doesn't make sense to me, what do you guys think?
BMWCCC
This is like never buying a computer for the same reason. No matter what you buy it will become obsolete eventually. Rest assured even now the 330i bests its competition in all areas but one: price.
So, there really doesn't seem to be much agreement on when the 3 series sedan will be available in the U.S. Sounds like not until 2qtr 2005 at least though.
May 2005 sounds safe.
Why wouldn't BMW bring out their new 3 series to compete with the New AUDI A6 V6 & V8 coming out in Nov of this year?
Because the 3 competes with the A4 - which was new a couple years ago and still can't touch the 3. audi's an afterthought. The real pressure is coming from Infiniti and Acura.
The 5 competes with the A6.
If the 3 series will have a V6 with 250hp and a V8 option with over 300hp, that coincides exactly with what Audi is doing.
No it doesn't. The Base 3 supposedly will sport a base 250 hp 3L. That obliterates the A4's pathetic 1.8T (170 hp) and anemic 3.0 V6 (220 I believe). Regardless, the A4 is a tubby car that's underpowered with everything but the S4's V8. Additionally, the 4.0L V8 BMW is matching to the next gen 3 will sport 400 HP and BMW horsies are always bigger than the kind Audi puts in their car.
That's rubbish. My 330i performance package with its measely 235 HP can take a G35 (260 HP) and a TL (270 HP) right now in handling and straightline acceleration. The e46 chassis was released in 1998 and it's still outperforming the designs of the 2001/2 G35/Skyline front midship platform and the Acura's 2003 TL. The comp had 4 -5 years to build a better boat and they still haven't.
Drive them all back to back. The G feels strong but also big and the suspension isn't nearly smooth enough. The TL is FWD...nuff said.
That's a big IF. I would bet the ranch that what you're hoping for isn't going to happen.
My 330i performance package with its measely 235 HP can take a G35 (260 HP) and a TL (270 HP) right now in handling and straightline acceleration.
blueguy, I thought the 330i had 225 HP? And are you sure you can take a G35 and TL on straights? Most car mag comparos I've seen, the 330 is beaten by a narrow margin.
Also, it's a bit of an unfair comparo b/c the 3 series is a LOT smaller than the G35 and TL, so you're comparing handling dynamics of a smaller car to midsized cars.
It does. I have the 330i with the performance package - which means 235 HP, different gearing, different differential, different cams, headers, ecu, no speed limiter, revised suspension, etc.
And are you sure you can take a G35 and TL on straights? Most car mag comparos I've seen, the 330 is beaten by a narrow margin.
Bring them on. The TL and G are fierce competitors but still considering they had more time to develop, it's a shock they aren't better.
Also, it's a bit of an unfair comparo b/c the 3 series is a LOT smaller than the G35 and TL, so you're comparing handling dynamics of a smaller car to midsized cars.
Same class - all are entry level lux. They're squarely aiming at the 3. That is their stated competition. Nothing unfair about it...save for the fact my car is a 7 Model Year old design.
Well TL is FWD so the fact that its chassis ain't better is not indicative of inferior engineering, it's just wrong wheel drive for performance.
The FM is a new platform, and supposedly Nissan's improved it for the M35/45 coming out so we'll see.
I still think performance comparos should be 5 series vs. TL and G35 based on size, but it doesn't matter much to me either way. If the new 3 series does get a 250HP straight 6, it should smoke both the TL and G35 no problem. I'd guess the new 530 would also win, but it'd be close.
Assuming the above assertion is true and that the 3.0L becsomes the base model, will that mean the future 330 will be priced similarily to the current 325 model?
If there is a major price hike, then sales volume of the 3 series will decline! Most 3 series in US are 325s and that is mainly because of affordability. Here in Canada we have a 320 with a 2.2L. The 320 is a big seller--mainly due to affordability(in Canada we have to settle for less since CDN$s are not as valuable as your US$s)
I believe that BMW would have no choice but to price the future 330 as a current 325. Otherwise the competition will get quite rough and BMW will lose its Sports Sedan Benchmark role.