That's an overstatement. Unless there are severe problems beyond simply having less horsepower, they will trade-in fine. They will sell for less simply because they are older. It's not as if no one will buy a 323 or 328.
Man, if I had bought a brand new 5 series or X3 and next model year it's getting a much more powerful engine, I'd be PISSED!
That's illogical. Why would someone be mad about a better version of a car model coming out? They bought what they liked at that moment. They made a choice.
Impressive indeed! The 325i engine has the highest percentage boost with 231hp. I bought my 99 323(2.5l) with 169hp. That means that the 05 will have approx a 40 % boost in hp. Not bad at all! It will be interesting to see how the the 330i is priced compared to the 325i. The price differential between these two vehicles would determine my choice on what I will be driving next year. Hopefully the 05 330 and 325 will be priced similiarly to the 04 models.
Can't agree with you guys. It's perfectly logical.
Typically, when a new model comes out, resale values of the older model take a hit. When engine upgrades happen, there is a similar hit on resale value.
I think BMW screwed 1st year model buyers of the X3 and 5 series.
think BMW screwed 1st year model buyers of the X3 and 5 series.
I'm sorry but that's a juvenile thing to say. Got screwed? By progress?! Every year car makers improve their line up or standard features. So what you're saying is every new model year all the previous buyers are somehow getting the shortend.
No. You're not entitled to what the next guy gets. Whether it's the deal on the car, the extra HP or the neat new doohickey. You got what you wanted when you bought. If you wanted extra power or a different engine all you had to do was sit on a fence and wait for what might be.
Take a little personal responsibility. 5 and X buyers wanted their cars now. They got them. That's the price you pay whenever you buy any consumer product.
Now I'm gonna go whine because the 2002 MY Jettas had an in-dash CD player while my 2001 had a cassette. Oh wait, I don't even own that car anymore and it didn't bother me when it happened. But I saw plenty of sniping and braying over it on vortex in august of 2001.
i dunno about u guys but here the new 5 is basically a failure, they dont sell that well for sure, even worse on the x3. having i-pod designers taking care of the i-drive sounds like a good idea, at least we might be seeing sth better than the curent i-drive. for now ill just stick with the current model, and trade it off w/ a new one if its any good.
I'm sorry but that's a juvenile thing to say. Got screwed? By progress?! Every year car makers improve their line up or standard features. So what you're saying is every new model year all the previous buyers are somehow getting the shortend.
BMW puts out a new 5 series, jacks up prices by $10k and then in one year makes the new model semi-obsolete by putting out MUCH more powerful engines next year and you think they're not getting screwed?
The expectations of people who buy the first model year of a car is that they'll probably encounter a few more problems since it's a first model year, but at least their car won't be obsolete for a LONG time.
It's why there's a premium on new model years and as the model gets long in the tooth, prices typically go down.
Buyers of the new BMW 5-series and X3 paid that new model year premium and now their cars are semi-obsolete. BMW didn't put a small boost in HP as Infiniti did in its update to the G35. BMW put a BIG boost in HP, so big that the previous generation engines look weak in comparison.
You're entitled to your opinion, but don't tell me my opinion is "juvenile." There's a rational basis for my opinion. Let's see what happens to residuals on first model year 5 and X3 before tossing out comments like "juvenile."
BMW puts out a new 5 series, jacks up prices by $10k and then in one year makes the new model semi-obsolete by putting out MUCH more powerful engines next year and you think they're not getting screwed?
not in any way, shape or form. They got what they paid for. They could have passed on the deal.
The expectations of people who buy the first model year of a car is that they'll probably encounter a few more problems since it's a first model year, but at least their car won't be obsolete for a LONG time.
What? That's ludicrous. The expectations of buying a first year model: "I'm the cat about town because I'm first on the block with a new toy."
Long time? that's beyond silly. Cars, especially luxury cars, are a massively depreciating asset that exist only as toys for their owners. The 5 owner could have bought a 3 year old Grand Marquis and received just as much room for 40k less.
It's why there's a premium on new model years and as the model gets long in the tooth, prices typically go down.
While features and performance go up. BMW in 99 released the 323i and 328i. In 2000 they had the 330i and 235i. In 2003 came the 330i performance package. This is how it goes with cars.
Buyers of the new BMW 5-series and X3 paid that new model year premium and now their cars are semi-obsolete.
This reminds me of people who buy computers and then freak when the new model of the same price is 70% faster. They buy objects that have built in obsolesence.
BMW didn't put a small boost in HP as Infiniti did in its update to the G35. BMW put a BIG boost in HP, so big that the previous generation engines look weak in comparison.
A. It hasn't happened yet. B. The jump from the 328 to the 330 was actually a good one in performance. And what of those poor M3 owners in 98 who got 240 and now M3 owners get 333. Damn that BMW.
You're entitled to your opinion, but don't tell me my opinion is "juvenile." There's a rational basis for my opinion.
There's nothing rational about saying people got screwed when all they did was buy EXACTLY what they wanted then. If their 5 was underpowered, then why did they buy it?
You're working off some weird emotional thing where business and life are somehow "fair" and the next guy in line shouldn't get twice as much meat on his plate for the same price. The world doesn't work that way. No matter how much people whine about it.
Let's see what happens to residuals on first model year 5 and X3 before tossing out comments like "juvenile."
Residuals? Are you serious? It's a car. No matter what their value will plummet. Too many external factors will play on the value to determine if it's a direct result of the engines. BMW's new shoddy interiors and bad reliability could come home to roost. recalls could clobber the vehicles. Incentive certainly will. Banglization may impact resale. too many variables to blame it on engine alone. People still scoop up 323 and 328 models so obviously it's not all about HP when it comes to luxo buyers. Hell, most BMW buyers get the car for one reason: the emblem.
Not disputing that cars get better over time and they depreciate fast.
But there is a BIG difference between a mid-model refresh (like what Infiniti is doing with the G) and a significant boost in HP just one year after introducing a BRAND NEW model line.
It wasn't that hard for BMW to up the HP on its inline 6 engines. They should have done it for the introduction of the new 5 series and new X3, not waited a year after.
having i-pod designers taking care of the i-drive sounds like a good idea, at least we might be seeing sth better than the curent i-d
Where are they doing that?
Wasn't the i-Drive designed by Microsoft? Isn't it Windows CE or some embedded version of Windows being used in the 745, the first one to deploy the i-Drive?
iPod of course comes from Apple. Would be strange if Apple designed an interface around a Windows OS.
im just responding previous posts, i dont even know where the news came from, afterall its just a rumor. but hey we can dream, cant we? lol
for everyone else, every comment has its own basis so i think itll be nice if we dont react harshly over it.
logically yes id say 1st yr buyers will get...jealous if 2nd year productions come with better horsepower or features, its natural for basically almost everybody, cos what they want is "mine's better than yours"...while 1st time buyers wanna say "i have the latest one!" lol
GM is introducing the new Pontiac replacement for the Grand Am GT, called the G6.
The G6 will debut this fall as a 2005 model year car and will offer 2 engine choices: a 4 baner and a 3.5L OHV v6 making 200HP.
The premium engine for this line of car, the 3.9L OHV v6 with 240HP and 245 ft.lb. of torque at 2,800rpm is not yet ready and GM announced it will be available the following model year, in 2005 as a 2006 model year car.
GM is giving the people who financially support a new model an INFORMED choice. If you can't wait and don't need the extra HP and torque, buy now. If you must have the 3.9L v6, then wait a year.
It's been known that BMW upgrades the engines in the middle of model cycles. I personally think it's a good strategy. They have less protential problems to worry about with the new launch and something to keep people interested after 3 years. I think they release new models every 7 years or so, much longer than industry standard of 4 yrs. I didn't get my BMWs for horsepower alone and I liked all previous generation 3 series as well as the most recent model.
"There's nothing rational about saying people got screwed when all they did was buy EXACTLY what they wanted then. If their 5 was underpowered, then why did they buy it?"
There is nothing rational about buying a BMW. Buying a BMW is mainly driven by emotion not reason. If I was rational I would have bought a MiniVan which would have accomodated my family needs much better than the 323 I am driving today.
I would be pissed and I know I am not the only one, if hp rose substantially one year after buying a new car. It would not be rational for me to feel pissed, but I would would feel pissed anyway. I am sure many BMW owners would feel the same way(among them very few juveniles)
The premium engine for this line of car, the 3.9L OHV v6 with 240HP and 245 ft.lb. of torque at 2,800rpm is not yet ready and GM announced it will be available the following model year, in 2005 as a 2006 model year car.
GM is giving the people who financially support a new model an INFORMED choice. If you can't wait and don't need the extra HP and torque, buy now. If you must have the 3.9L v6, then wait a year.
Stop! Okay, give it up. GM is a great company, okay? Go buy a mugly GM. Just stop whining about a common practice...selling customers the vehicles on the lot.
The sedans got two years with the old engine.. The E46 coupes didn't come out until 2000, so they just had one year as 323 and 328 before the 325/330 change in '01.
Thanks. I am looking forward to replacing my 325xiT with X3 in 06. It's nice to know that there'll be more HP. Not that the current 3.0 isn't strong enough.
I wish I lived in a neighborhood like yours. I've been wondering what the styling change will do to BMW's image, especially now that it'll affect its volume model. Around here, I'd say there are more BMW drivers who bought the car for the brand, and are not driving enthusiasts at all. If the new car is so ugly that people only buy for what's inside, there'll be a definite change. If it's so cutting edge that Celica-style fans buy it, the demographics change differently (still enthusiasts of some sort though). I find all the pre-Bangle BMWs to be plain but elegant, and I think that draws image seekers.
for good or for bad, if you read bmw's history here itself on edmunds, you will realize that bmw has often, not just once suddenly changed engines midlife... sometimes right next year after a model launch... i'll see if i can find a direct link. if not try to look up the 5 series history article on edmunds.
Didn't realize it was a common practice with BMW to do major engine upgrades in the 2nd model year.
oh and why don't you guys exchange phone #'s
Heh, no need. I agree with Blue it's a dead horse. We'll just agree to disagree and leave it at that.
I am wondering what BMW did to increase the power so drastically though? Did they use their Valvetronic technology? It's great stuff, but expensive (which is why BMW restricted it only to their premium v8s).
Did BMW just up the compression ratio? I'm wondering if they just increased high end HP without corresponding increase in the torque curve at lower rpms.
I'd love to see a chart comparing the torque curve of the new 3.25L I6 and 3.30L I6 and comparing it to the torque curves on the older engines.
i always think enthusiasts look for whats inside, so i'd say they'll most likely want the bigger hps, while brand seekers dont really care as long as it has the word BMW on the hood. image seekers might find the new design too radical, just my 2 cents though.
one thing to remember though, is that most beemer buyers are brand seekers, so no matter how...radical the design is they'll probably still buy it, just for the emblem
I am not sure if I can agree that "most beemer buyers are brand seekers,". It took me a long time to get to BMW. I tried most other brands before settling down with BMW. They just drive better. 3 series is my favorite. I just hope they don't get any heavier.
As a BMW owner I'd side with the people who say most bimmer owners are brand hounds. I drove everything under the sun and found the bimmer sublime. But most people I know with bimmers simply wanted the emblem. Ask them if the car is front or rear wheel drive and you get a blank stare.
As for the engines. I saw a posting elsewhere that mentioned the 630 for next year gets the new valvetronice 3.0. It'll still make a paultry 221 ft-lbs of torque but HP jumps to 258.
Unfortunately your following statement is somewhat true.
"most bimmer owners are brand hounds"
The good news however is that the success of BMW's snob appeal is dependent on certain performance/handling statistics. BMW's snob image would be tarnished if their cars had mediocre hp. This in fact is happening right now! For example the disappointing hp on both the new 5 series/x3 models can be considered one of the key reasons for the less than successful sales of these two models.
Many Brand Hounds are flocking away from x3s and 5 Series and fleeing to other higher performance/handling vehicles offered by competitors.
In other words the snob appeal of BMWs have to be earned. Otherwise BMW may face the same fate as Jaguar faced during the 1980s.
HP and snob appeal? rofl. sorry bmw has never been the company to offer cars with the biggest engines.
The 323i and 325i were the bread butter of the 3 series line. 2.5 liters still are. Even with the G35 and TL and IS300 - all are cheaper with similar equipment - the 325i sells strongly. Additionally, MB's lower end cars are always underpowered and the same is true with Audi. Obviously badge chasing isn't related to HP.
Nobody will mistake an Infiniti or Acura for a luxury brand.
While blueguy has had sensible responses of late, I take issue with your last paragraph. MB's 230 sport sedan - while 'you' may consider it underpowered...it is quite often considered more performance oriented than the 2.5 bmw (not handling, but available hp and 'over-all' driving fun). That's not to contradict anything else you say except to make a statement of fact that their bottom feeding 230c line is not a slouch in the performance area. You may want to check their hp rating and/or take a test drive.
Secondly, I would directly contest your last sentence that no one will mistake an Acura for a luxury brand. THe '04 TL, for example, ....have you sat in one lately? The accoutrements, lighting, comfort, materials and workmanship....if not luxury...then I don't what you would ever consider luxury. Unless, of course, you feel that only the highest echelon of luxury interiors make the grade. In any event, Acura 'does' make luxury vehicles, despite the category of 'near-luxury' for the TL. Plushness for the sake of plushness or expensive parts for the sake of expensive parts does not luxury make. Quality and design (the latter which can be subjective) are as critical as anything in this regard...not how cushy the seat is or how expensive the car is.
Finally, and I say this as a fan of BMW 325 styling (well, maybe until I see this '06), if an Acura TL isn't luxurious...with all it's tastefully appointed ammenities and superb interior lighting scheme, then the 325 is light years behind. And, the TL is about a couple thousand dollars less. It's also 270 hp to boot.
That's not to contradict anything else you say except to make a statement of fact that their bottom feeding 230c line is not a slouch in the performance area. You may want to check their hp rating and/or take a test drive.
I have driven the C cars. They're as anemic as the current 325i.
sentence that no one will mistake an Acura for a luxury brand. THe '04 TL, for example, ....have you sat in one lately? The accoutrements, lighting, comfort, materials and workmanship....if not luxury..
Luxury is about more than being a gussied up vehicle. The TL is a nice car. but's an acura, which is not a luxury make. It's a tweener brand like VW. It sells FWD cars built of economy car chassis - Civic for instance.
not how cushy the seat is or how expensive the car is.
No it's who makes it and what is their line up. The TL, RL, TSX are all decent cars. In fact I really dig the TL and TSX. but Acura's simply not a luxury brand.
Finally, and I say this as a fan of BMW 325 styling (well, maybe until I see this '06), if an Acura TL isn't luxurious...with all it's tastefully appointed ammenities and superb interior lighting scheme, then the 325 is light years behind. And, the TL is about a couple thousand dollars less. It's also 270 hp to boot.
The 325 for all of its many failings has something Acura doesn't - marketing clout based purely on the emblem. Do i think the TL is a better can than a 325i? Most definitely. In most ways it pounds the 325i. Save for the RWD/FWD. Beyond that, I'd own a TL before a 325i. Heck, I'd buy a TSX before owning a 325i. In fact I intended on doing just that until I bought the 330i. If the TL had been out when i purchased in 03, I would have gone for it. 30k for a car like that? Sorry, the 330i Perf. Pack is super fun but it's 10k more fun.
As I said on another forum, if Acura has an AWD TL in 06, I'll most likely go that route.
You say you have a 330i, yet would've purchased the '04 tl if available at the time. Haven't driven the 330i yet (would have to buy used, if ever, due to cost) but would've thought the bmw agility, steering, etc. would have made it more performance 'feeling' than the TL...which, to me, the worst thing you can say about it is....it's large (and front wheel drive). I say this even though the bmw gives up 50 or so HP. Even though I'm defending the TL previously, I'm surprised that in the 'fun to drive' performance category, the 330i, doesn't beat a....boat.
My 330i performance package is a fun car. Lots of fun. insane fun. But - i don't think it was worth its 43k msrp or the 39.9 i paid for it. I leased it and got a tremendous deal that will end up far cheaper than a 31k (before ttl) G35 would have been.
I admit I haven't driven the TL yet. I know i would have taken a TSX over the G35 and 325i. Without a moment's hesitation.
The TL when it has AWD will be very tempting. nice engine, solid build quality, perfect honda 6 speed, unimpeachable honda reliability and a price that will be a solid value.
I can't say any of those things about my BMW. the engine (235 hp) is fun but still anemic. the build quality is shoddy at best. BMW reliabilitry? no such thing. a decent manual tranny doesn't exist in any bmw I've ever driven. and it's anything but a value for the price.
If i'd been patient for 4 more months, god only knows what I'd be driving now. I suspect I probably still would have gone with the 330i as the TL is FWD.
I am in the same boat you seemed to be in 2003. I am in the position to buy a new car as my Jeep Blew its engine recently. I have narrowed my search to several makers but am not quite decided yet.
My choices are the 2005 Audi A6 / 2005/6 BMW 330ti and maybe, maybe I will look at the 2005 TL if it is AWD.
I am renting a piece of sh#t right now and don't know if I can wait for the July 05'/06' 330ti to come out.
Blueguydotcom, I agree with your following statement :
"HP and snob appeal? rofl. sorry bmw has never been the company to offer cars with the biggest engines. "
BUT...... the BMW 3 series remains a benchmark car for its overall performance/handling attributes. HP alone does not define snob appeal, but the fact that the 3 series remains a benchmark car in the sports sedan segment is what justifies its snob appeal.
Personally after I test drove several competing models, no other car makes me as enthused as a 3 series.(never test drove a 5 or 7 series since I prefer my cars small and fast). I think an increase in size is a waste of money(would rather drive an M3 than a 530)
bmw might not have the extra ponies, but in most aspects i wont put it in the same league with a TL and C230s
i admit the TLs interior is really nice, and the power is plain awesome, but while its really nice on acceleration and speed, TL still doesnt offer the handling of a bmw. the same goes for the C-class. i tried TL, g35, C-class and 3 series, and id say the beemer is still the best overall performer...despite its reliability record and value though lol
Id choose the TL over the g35 anytime due to g35s harsher ride, and if youve seen the interior, you can tell right away that its way below Acura's standards. and id also choose it over the C, since its got more hp and room for the same comfort and build quality
Check out these possible engines options for the upcoming 2005/06 3 series. If i can hold out,I might be all over the 330ti model with 333 hp. Wonder what the torque is on that guy as well as the price?
I like the cut of your jib! I forgot you said performance package. So, how do you feel about the plain ole 330i? Did you notice much difference from the few hp they gave you in the performance pack. The interior in the sport, from the pics I've seen, look almost 'too' race oriented, bland, etc. The steering wheel looks like I don't know what with that afghan(?) monster they have it covered in. Is it better in person...or a trade off for performance?
I get a car allowance from my company monthly ( sales ) so I can hold out if I have too.
The Audi A6 is coming out end of this year and really at this point is the only other car I am interested besides the new 3 series.
I guess by November, there should be more info. out on the new 3 Series; enough at least to wait another 6 months for maybe. Depends on how nice the new Audi's are though i guess.
Why don't you think the 330ti will be an option?
Did you watch the video from the link in my previous message?
Could be true there is no Turbo for the next 3 series. However, there will be a interior and exterior change to this model and the HP will more than likely jump up as the base model and maybe offer another jump up for a sport model.
When would you think they would release engine options etc for the 3 series?
yeah i noticed the same thing about the upcoming '06s design. like i said its losing its elegance. even if they got a turbo coming up i dont think i will consider it, as im not a fan of turbos. having a non-turbo power boost is nice tho
I bought the performance package because of what's under the hood - different suspension, different headers/cams, switched ECU, adjusted exhaust, short-throw 6 speed, new differential. It's a much more in-your-face car than a standard 330i. At my dealership a salesperson told me they've had several people return them as too harsh.
FWIW, I still think the car is too soft.
As for the alcantara wheel, I've grown to like it. It's soft, never gets hot and people love to touch it.
I have leather seating so I can't comment on that stuff -I'm not a fan of cloth.
I'll admit that after a year when I see a regular 330i I dislike the chrome around the windows and the front end. I liked the original e46 front - so the new one never won me over. At least with the M front the car looks a little more aggressive - not that it matters.
"How can the existing M3 survies with 330ti(333hp) . The risk of cannibilization of the M Series would most likely prevent the existence of a 330ti did not see the M3 model"
I did not notice the M3 with 401 hp on the list(a hard thing not to notice).
This is all speculation anyway, but the info showed the M3 with a V8 turbo putting out 450 hp. So they would have a base model engine with 265, a upgraded sport turbo with 333 then the whopper with 450.
i just hope bmw wont make more mistakes, one of bmw's senior board member admitted that theyve made some horrible mistakes, both in design and i-drive, which atually explains why the 7 series sales went down drastically. in surveys they had, most customers are very dissapointed with the i-drive, and found the new styling doesnt match bmw's theme and mission, etc etc...( i read all this from a european auto magazine) i heard theyre preparing a new 7 series soon, and theyre gonna make sure the new 3 doesnt go the same way the 7 series did. banglism is finally holding back, amen to that...
Comments
The 265 hp inline 6 and the 333 hp turbo inline 6. Sounds great!
Click on link below
http://www2.autospies.com/article/index.asp?articleId=3043&ca- tegoryId=10
bmwccc
If those engines are being released for the 3 series, then they also have to go into the 5 series, X3 and X5 as well.
Man, if I had bought a brand new 5 series or X3 and next model year it's getting a much more powerful engine, I'd be PISSED!
1st model years with the weaker engines are going to get HAMMERED come trade-in time.
That's illogical. Why would someone be mad about a better version of a car model coming out? They bought what they liked at that moment. They made a choice.
Typically, when a new model comes out, resale values of the older model take a hit. When engine upgrades happen, there is a similar hit on resale value.
I think BMW screwed 1st year model buyers of the X3 and 5 series.
I'm sorry but that's a juvenile thing to say. Got screwed? By progress?! Every year car makers improve their line up or standard features. So what you're saying is every new model year all the previous buyers are somehow getting the shortend.
No. You're not entitled to what the next guy gets. Whether it's the deal on the car, the extra HP or the neat new doohickey. You got what you wanted when you bought. If you wanted extra power or a different engine all you had to do was sit on a fence and wait for what might be.
Take a little personal responsibility. 5 and X buyers wanted their cars now. They got them. That's the price you pay whenever you buy any consumer product.
Now I'm gonna go whine because the 2002 MY Jettas had an in-dash CD player while my 2001 had a cassette. Oh wait, I don't even own that car anymore and it didn't bother me when it happened. But I saw plenty of sniping and braying over it on vortex in august of 2001.
having i-pod designers taking care of the i-drive sounds like a good idea, at least we might be seeing sth better than the curent i-drive.
for now ill just stick with the current model, and trade it off w/ a new one if its any good.
BMW puts out a new 5 series, jacks up prices by $10k and then in one year makes the new model semi-obsolete by putting out MUCH more powerful engines next year and you think they're not getting screwed?
The expectations of people who buy the first model year of a car is that they'll probably encounter a few more problems since it's a first model year, but at least their car won't be obsolete for a LONG time.
It's why there's a premium on new model years and as the model gets long in the tooth, prices typically go down.
Buyers of the new BMW 5-series and X3 paid that new model year premium and now their cars are semi-obsolete. BMW didn't put a small boost in HP as Infiniti did in its update to the G35. BMW put a BIG boost in HP, so big that the previous generation engines look weak in comparison.
You're entitled to your opinion, but don't tell me my opinion is "juvenile." There's a rational basis for my opinion. Let's see what happens to residuals on first model year 5 and X3 before tossing out comments like "juvenile."
not in any way, shape or form. They got what they paid for. They could have passed on the deal.
The expectations of people who buy the first model year of a car is that they'll probably encounter a few more problems since it's a first model year, but at least their car won't be obsolete for a LONG time.
What? That's ludicrous. The expectations of buying a first year model: "I'm the cat about town because I'm first on the block with a new toy."
Long time? that's beyond silly. Cars, especially luxury cars, are a massively depreciating asset that exist only as toys for their owners. The 5 owner could have bought a 3 year old Grand Marquis and received just as much room for 40k less.
It's why there's a premium on new model years and as the model gets long in the tooth, prices typically go down.
While features and performance go up. BMW in 99 released the 323i and 328i. In 2000 they had the 330i and 235i. In 2003 came the 330i performance package. This is how it goes with cars.
Buyers of the new BMW 5-series and X3 paid that new model year premium and now their cars are semi-obsolete.
This reminds me of people who buy computers and then freak when the new model of the same price is 70% faster. They buy objects that have built in obsolesence.
BMW didn't put a small boost in HP as Infiniti did in its update to the G35. BMW put a BIG boost in HP, so big that the previous generation engines look weak in comparison.
A. It hasn't happened yet. B. The jump from the 328 to the 330 was actually a good one in performance. And what of those poor M3 owners in 98 who got 240 and now M3 owners get 333. Damn that BMW.
You're entitled to your opinion, but don't tell me my opinion is "juvenile." There's a rational basis for my opinion.
There's nothing rational about saying people got screwed when all they did was buy EXACTLY what they wanted then. If their 5 was underpowered, then why did they buy it?
You're working off some weird emotional thing where business and life are somehow "fair" and the next guy in line shouldn't get twice as much meat on his plate for the same price. The world doesn't work that way. No matter how much people whine about it.
Let's see what happens to residuals on first model year 5 and X3 before tossing out comments like "juvenile."
Residuals? Are you serious? It's a car. No matter what their value will plummet. Too many external factors will play on the value to determine if it's a direct result of the engines. BMW's new shoddy interiors and bad reliability could come home to roost. recalls could clobber the vehicles. Incentive certainly will. Banglization may impact resale. too many variables to blame it on engine alone. People still scoop up 323 and 328 models so obviously it's not all about HP when it comes to luxo buyers. Hell, most BMW buyers get the car for one reason: the emblem.
But there is a BIG difference between a mid-model refresh (like what Infiniti is doing with the G) and a significant boost in HP just one year after introducing a BRAND NEW model line.
It wasn't that hard for BMW to up the HP on its inline 6 engines. They should have done it for the introduction of the new 5 series and new X3, not waited a year after.
Where are they doing that?
Wasn't the i-Drive designed by Microsoft? Isn't it Windows CE or some embedded version of Windows being used in the 745, the first one to deploy the i-Drive?
iPod of course comes from Apple. Would be strange if Apple designed an interface around a Windows OS.
for everyone else, every comment has its own basis so i think itll be nice if we dont react harshly over it.
logically yes id say 1st yr buyers will get...jealous if 2nd year productions come with better horsepower or features, its natural for basically almost everybody, cos what they want is "mine's better than yours"...while 1st time buyers wanna say "i have the latest one!" lol
The G6 will debut this fall as a 2005 model year car and will offer 2 engine choices: a 4 baner and a 3.5L OHV v6 making 200HP.
The premium engine for this line of car, the 3.9L OHV v6 with 240HP and 245 ft.lb. of torque at 2,800rpm is not yet ready and GM announced it will be available the following model year, in 2005 as a 2006 model year car.
GM is giving the people who financially support a new model an INFORMED choice. If you can't wait and don't need the extra HP and torque, buy now. If you must have the 3.9L v6, then wait a year.
There is nothing rational about buying a BMW. Buying a BMW is mainly driven by emotion not reason. If I was rational I would have bought a MiniVan which would have accomodated my family needs much better than the 323 I am driving today.
I would be pissed and I know I am not the only one, if hp rose substantially one year after buying a new car. It would not be rational for me to feel pissed, but I would would feel pissed anyway. I am sure many BMW owners would feel the same way(among them very few juveniles)
GM is giving the people who financially support a new model an INFORMED choice. If you can't wait and don't need the extra HP and torque, buy now. If you must have the 3.9L v6, then wait a year.
Stop! Okay, give it up. GM is a great company, okay? Go buy a mugly GM. Just stop whining about a common practice...selling customers the vehicles on the lot.
2nd model year is the middle of a cycle?
regards,
kyfdx
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I wish I lived in a neighborhood like yours. I've been wondering what the styling change will do to BMW's image, especially now that it'll affect its volume model. Around here, I'd say there are more BMW drivers who bought the car for the brand, and are not driving enthusiasts at all. If the new car is so ugly that people only buy for what's inside, there'll be a definite change. If it's so cutting edge that Celica-style fans buy it, the demographics change differently (still enthusiasts of some sort though). I find all the pre-Bangle BMWs to be plain but elegant, and I think that draws image seekers.
oh and why don't you guys exchange phone #'s
ksso
oh and why don't you guys exchange phone #'s
Heh, no need. I agree with Blue it's a dead horse. We'll just agree to disagree and leave it at that.
I am wondering what BMW did to increase the power so drastically though? Did they use their Valvetronic technology? It's great stuff, but expensive (which is why BMW restricted it only to their premium v8s).
Did BMW just up the compression ratio? I'm wondering if they just increased high end HP without corresponding increase in the torque curve at lower rpms.
I'd love to see a chart comparing the torque curve of the new 3.25L I6 and 3.30L I6 and comparing it to the torque curves on the older engines.
one thing to remember though, is that most beemer buyers are brand seekers, so no matter how...radical the design is they'll probably still buy it, just for the emblem
As for the engines. I saw a posting elsewhere that mentioned the 630 for next year gets the new valvetronice 3.0. It'll still make a paultry 221 ft-lbs of torque but HP jumps to 258.
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/d/62831
"most bimmer owners are brand hounds"
The good news however is that the success of BMW's snob appeal is dependent on certain performance/handling statistics. BMW's snob image would be tarnished if their cars had mediocre hp. This in fact is happening right now! For example the disappointing hp on both the new 5 series/x3 models can be considered one of the key reasons for the less than successful sales of these two models.
Many Brand Hounds are flocking away from x3s and 5 Series and fleeing to other higher performance/handling vehicles offered by competitors.
In other words the snob appeal of BMWs have to be earned. Otherwise BMW may face the same fate as Jaguar faced during the 1980s.
The 323i and 325i were the bread butter of the 3 series line. 2.5 liters still are. Even with the G35 and TL and IS300 - all are cheaper with similar equipment - the 325i sells strongly. Additionally, MB's lower end cars are always underpowered and the same is true with Audi. Obviously badge chasing isn't related to HP.
Nobody will mistake an Infiniti or Acura for a luxury brand.
Secondly, I would directly contest your last sentence that no one will mistake an Acura for a luxury brand. THe '04 TL, for example, ....have you sat in one lately? The accoutrements, lighting, comfort, materials and workmanship....if not luxury...then I don't what you would ever consider luxury. Unless, of course, you feel that only the highest echelon of luxury interiors make the grade. In any event, Acura 'does' make luxury vehicles, despite the category of 'near-luxury' for the TL. Plushness for the sake of plushness or expensive parts for the sake of expensive parts does not luxury make. Quality and design (the latter which can be subjective) are as critical as anything in this regard...not how cushy the seat is or how expensive the car is.
Finally, and I say this as a fan of BMW 325 styling (well, maybe until I see this '06), if an Acura TL isn't luxurious...with all it's tastefully appointed ammenities and superb interior lighting scheme, then the 325 is light years behind. And, the TL is about a couple thousand dollars less. It's also 270 hp to boot.
I have driven the C cars. They're as anemic as the current 325i.
sentence that no one will mistake an Acura for a luxury brand. THe '04 TL, for example, ....have you sat in one lately? The accoutrements, lighting, comfort, materials and workmanship....if not luxury..
Luxury is about more than being a gussied up vehicle. The TL is a nice car. but's an acura, which is not a luxury make. It's a tweener brand like VW. It sells FWD cars built of economy car chassis - Civic for instance.
not how cushy the seat is or how expensive the car is.
No it's who makes it and what is their line up. The TL, RL, TSX are all decent cars. In fact I really dig the TL and TSX. but Acura's simply not a luxury brand.
Finally, and I say this as a fan of BMW 325 styling (well, maybe until I see this '06), if an Acura TL isn't luxurious...with all it's tastefully appointed ammenities and superb interior lighting scheme, then the 325 is light years behind. And, the TL is about a couple thousand dollars less. It's also 270 hp to boot.
The 325 for all of its many failings has something Acura doesn't - marketing clout based purely on the emblem. Do i think the TL is a better can than a 325i? Most definitely. In most ways it pounds the 325i. Save for the RWD/FWD. Beyond that, I'd own a TL before a 325i. Heck, I'd buy a TSX before owning a 325i. In fact I intended on doing just that until I bought the 330i. If the TL had been out when i purchased in 03, I would have gone for it. 30k for a car like that? Sorry, the 330i Perf. Pack is super fun but it's 10k more fun.
As I said on another forum, if Acura has an AWD TL in 06, I'll most likely go that route.
You say you have a 330i, yet would've purchased the '04 tl if available at the time. Haven't driven the 330i yet (would have to buy used, if ever, due to cost) but would've thought the bmw agility, steering, etc. would have made it more performance 'feeling' than the TL...which, to me, the worst thing you can say about it is....it's large (and front wheel drive). I say this even though the bmw gives up 50 or so HP. Even though I'm defending the TL previously, I'm surprised that in the 'fun to drive' performance category, the 330i, doesn't beat a....boat.
I admit I haven't driven the TL yet. I know i would have taken a TSX over the G35 and 325i. Without a moment's hesitation.
The TL when it has AWD will be very tempting. nice engine, solid build quality, perfect honda 6 speed, unimpeachable honda reliability and a price that will be a solid value.
I can't say any of those things about my BMW. the engine (235 hp) is fun but still anemic. the build quality is shoddy at best. BMW reliabilitry? no such thing. a decent manual tranny doesn't exist in any bmw I've ever driven. and it's anything but a value for the price.
If i'd been patient for 4 more months, god only knows what I'd be driving now. I suspect I probably still would have gone with the 330i as the TL is FWD.
I am in the same boat you seemed to be in 2003. I am in the position to buy a new car as my Jeep Blew its engine recently. I have narrowed my search to several makers but am not quite decided yet.
My choices are the 2005 Audi A6 / 2005/6 BMW 330ti and maybe, maybe I will look at the 2005 TL if it is AWD.
I am renting a piece of sh#t right now and don't know if I can wait for the July 05'/06' 330ti to come out.
Any thoughts?
"HP and snob appeal? rofl. sorry bmw has never been the company to offer cars with the biggest engines. "
BUT...... the BMW 3 series remains a benchmark car for its overall performance/handling attributes. HP alone does not define
snob appeal, but the fact that the 3 series remains a benchmark car in the sports sedan segment is what justifies its snob appeal.
Personally after I test drove several competing models, no other car makes me as enthused as a 3 series.(never test drove a 5 or 7 series since I prefer my cars small and fast). I think an increase in size is a waste of money(would rather drive an M3 than a 530)
i admit the TLs interior is really nice, and the power is plain awesome, but while its really nice on acceleration and speed, TL still doesnt offer the handling of a bmw. the same goes for the C-class. i tried TL, g35, C-class and 3 series, and id say the beemer is still the best overall performer...despite its reliability record and value though lol
Id choose the TL over the g35 anytime due to g35s harsher ride, and if youve seen the interior, you can tell right away that its way below Acura's standards. and id also choose it over the C, since its got more hp and room for the same comfort and build quality
Check out these possible engines options for the upcoming 2005/06 3 series. If i can hold out,I might be all over the 330ti model with 333 hp. Wonder what the torque is on that guy as well as the price?
http://www2.autospies.com/article/index.asp?articleId=3043&ca- - tegoryId=10
Check out this video as well on the new 3 series and watch carefully for the still photos of the black car in the snow, fricken insane looking.
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/video_gallery/video.php?id=38053
Let me know what you guys think.
Later
The 330ti (if it happens) will be very tempting. 333 hp from a light turbo could be killer. that'd push torque way up too...at least 30% or so.
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I get a car allowance from my company monthly ( sales ) so I can hold out if I have too.
The Audi A6 is coming out end of this year and really at this point is the only other car I am interested besides the new 3 series.
I guess by November, there should be more info. out on the new 3 Series; enough at least to wait another 6 months for maybe. Depends on how nice the new Audi's are though i guess.
Why don't you think the 330ti will be an option?
Did you watch the video from the link in my previous message?
Could be true there is no Turbo for the next 3 series. However, there will be a interior and exterior change to this model and the HP will more than likely jump up as the base model and maybe offer another jump up for a sport model.
When would you think they would release engine options etc for the 3 series?
See this video?
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/video_gallery/video.php?id=38053
even if they got a turbo coming up i dont think i will consider it, as im not a fan of turbos. having a non-turbo power boost is nice tho
FWIW, I still think the car is too soft.
As for the alcantara wheel, I've grown to like it. It's soft, never gets hot and people love to touch it.
I have leather seating so I can't comment on that stuff -I'm not a fan of cloth.
I'll admit that after a year when I see a regular 330i I dislike the chrome around the windows and the front end. I liked the original e46 front - so the new one never won me over. At least with the M front the car looks a little more aggressive - not that it matters.
How can the existing M3 survies with 330ti(333hp) . The risk of cannibilization of the M Series would most likely prevent the existence of a 330ti.
"How can the existing M3 survies with 330ti(333hp) . The risk of cannibilization of the M Series would most likely prevent the existence of a 330ti did not see the M3 model"
I did not notice the M3 with 401 hp on the list(a hard thing not to notice).
This is all speculation anyway, but the info showed the M3 with a V8 turbo putting out 450 hp. So they would have a base model engine with 265, a upgraded sport turbo with 333 then the whopper with 450.
Makes sense but we will see i guess.
in surveys they had, most customers are very dissapointed with the i-drive, and found the new styling doesnt match bmw's theme and mission, etc etc...( i read all this from a european auto magazine)
i heard theyre preparing a new 7 series soon, and theyre gonna make sure the new 3 doesnt go the same way the 7 series did.
banglism is finally holding back, amen to that...