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Jeep Liberty Diesel

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Comments

  • fustfust Posts: 29
    THANK-YOU VERY MUCH FOR THE INFORMATION .
  • faroutfarout Posts: 1,609
    nescosmo: I am always glad to answer questions. I once pick up a family from Africa when they arrived at the airport in Chicago ILL. They were dressed in their native clothes. They had never seen 22 F temp. before. They were so very cold. They too had never seen snow and asked similar questions as you have. So I do understand.
    All our indoor water lines are wrapped in special insulation to keep the pipes flowing all the time. The water lines coming to our home are about 3 feet down in the ground. We have a septic system and the septic tank is buried 3 feet under the ground as well. The sewer line from the toilet and sink drains drain into septic, the tank has lines that drain extend out about 300 feet. The waste water goes into the ground, and by nature it gets recycled. Sounds ucky, but all water is done the same way. Hope this explains your questions.

    Farout
  • Even after a steady use of ULSD, if baby the jeep and idle it often, I can lay down a smoke barrier that would make batman's batmobile envious.

    I know that more than a few "blow the jeep's nose" but I am a little suprised that so much junk can accumulate with such clean fuel. I pulled out in front of some traffic yesterday. Watching the traffic gag punch through that cloud was amusing and slightly entertaining. :blush: :)
  • arvmanarvman Posts: 95
    I like to do that to tailgaters,or a dodge diesel tailgating especially,gives me a chuckle to imagine the driver thinking"that can't be a diesel".
  • New to the board--Have an 06 crd with no service book and dealer can't tell me if there is a different booklet for the CRD. Can anyone provide me with the USA part#.
    Also, what is the oil service interval with synthetic oil?

    Thanks,

    Steve
  • mrmag00mrmag00 Posts: 16
    Steve: I didn't get one when I got my 06 CRD either. I got one from Head Office when I sent them a message.
    The book is called "2006 Liberty CRD Maintenance Service Schedule". There is a number on the front of the book
    "SV0613-E" but that may be for Candian vehicles only but I'm sure that must have ones for Europe or the USA etc.

    Let me know how you make out.

    regards,
    Brian
  • Thanks, Brian for the reply. I'll see what happens when I try to order it.

    Steve
  • mdamickmdamick Posts: 277
    I think it is due to the EGR. I have been experimenting with mine. When the MIL comes on and it takes off like it is supposed to I don't seem to blow much smoke. The code reader says low EGR flow.
    If I clear the codes it is doggy off the line and can blow lots of smoke.
    I still have the original EGR @ 63000 mi and maybe that's part of the problem.
  • Hey guys,
    It has been a while since I have been on this board since I traded my CRD for a more reliable vehicle. Many of you will recall my woes when the torque converter seized up in my Liberty last July while underway. Long story short, during the 45 days my CRD was in the shop I traded it for another vehicle and took a huge blood bath. The vehicle depreciated over 40% in the 9 months I owned it. Since I qulified for the lemon law in Virginia I contacted a lawyer after I got no where with DC. Amazingly I got a call from the lawyer today who settled with DC. DC paid $7,600 to settle even though I no longer owned the vehicle. I saw $4600 after the lawyers cut. If I add the $7,600 to my trade in value, it means the vehicle cost me nothing! In reality it cost me $3000 in legal fees. I'm finally happy with the outcome.

    If any of you want details or info about the lawyer write me an email and I'll be happy to tell you what I know.

    Good luck with your CRDs. At least they finally admitted there is a big problem with the trannys. :) :shades:
  • nescosmonescosmo Posts: 453
    Farout... Thank you for your clarification.
    Also i have notice that many have smoke when they blow the CRD nose, i also have that problem,-a lot smoke- but i found out that if i do not use the PS additive in my CRD the smoke vanishes. Have any of you have this experience.

    Nescosmo.
  • nescosmonescosmo Posts: 453
    New2diesel... We finally have the CRD in shape. We all have said that we were a test market but i was watching an old car sale on tv, and many of those car had a very small amount of them in production. I almost bought a Delorian many years ago and now they are a collector paradise. maybe our CRD in 20 to 30 years will be a collectors dream.

    Nescosmo.
  • siberiasiberia Posts: 520
    At 20k miles CRD developed an annoying clunk or doink when stopping, starting or going from neutral to drive, sometimes. I traced that to the left engine mount and tightened it.

    Recently (32k miles) developed another popping or creaking that seemed to be coming from the transmission. Traced new noise to a loose transmission mount. The loose bolt is in a recessed area on the right side by the exhaust and is not accessible with normal tools. I had to drop the transmission cross member and remove the mount from the transmission in order to tighten the loose bolt. There is a heat shield that slides between the mount and the bracket to protect the rubber from the exhaust. The heat shield is softer material that apparently did not crush enough when originally installed. It took a full 1 1/4 turn to tighten it. The bolt was indexed with blue paint from the factory and did not indicate that it worked loose - soft material just gave way. Noise gone, sanity temporarily restored. :)
  • caribou1caribou1 Posts: 1,354
    Siberia, what happens if you don't tighten this bolt?
    I get this clonking sound when engaging into Drive at standstill and shifting into Neutral while braking when not yet stopped. Is this what you are experiencing?
  • siberiasiberia Posts: 520
    There was some discussion over on L.O.S.T about dirty temperature/boost sensors. The instruction on how to remove and clean the sensor are posted on the site and it is very easy to do. Just remove 2 electrical plugs and one 4mm allen screw. I is easy to clean with brake cleaner.

    The one on my CRD was completely plugged and carboned over with soft gummy powder. Don't see how it could still be working at all. Maybe the temperature part of the sensor still worked but with an unacceptable lag.

    The results of the cleaning on L.O.S.T were mixed with some getting no change in preformance and some getting dramatic change in performance. I got the dramatic change. My CRD made a lot of smoke before the cleaning and I now have difficulty seeing any smoke after cleaning. I runs so much better now that it is suprising. I apparently did not realize the gradual degradation in performance.

    I am going to clean the boost sensor every oil change from now on and drop the fuel filter drain ritual. I have yet to find a single drop of water in the drain fuel. I'm just going to rely on the water sensor to do its job.

    Do any of you diesel experts know how a dirty boost sensor can cause so much black smoke? My guess is that the computer sees low boost and injects more fuel relative to engine speed, load and timing trying to create boost?

    Check it out, you might get a pleasant surprise too. :shades:
  • siberiasiberia Posts: 520
    My opinion is that nothing would happen - it would just keep making noise. I'm not sure if what you describe is the same - it might be. My engine mount made noise during directional torque transition - once each transition. The transmission mount noise could be heard almost continually when coasting on a rough street and not applying enough torque to suppress it. When engaging the transmission forward or reverse sometimes.

    I was able to find the transmission bracket noise by pushing up on the transfer case from underneath. I was able to find which bolt by using a pry bar.

    I recall finding the engine mount noise by holding the brake and alternating between forward and reverse and applying enough torque to make it pop. The pop is just a minute slippage of the bolt from one side of the hole to the other while the bolt is just snug and not tight.
  • caribou1caribou1 Posts: 1,354
    I think in my case it's the natural play between the differentials that makes the noise. It seems your engine with the transmission were pivotating around two mounting points.
    I've not yet spotted any oil stain under the truck, and I'm parking it at the same places since 3 1/2 years!
    To be honest, I never use a pry bar for making a diagnostic. I always look for shiny spots or sometimes rusty deposits.

    What you discovered about the boost pressure sensor, I found about my air filter element. My engine doesn't sense pressure, it just assumes pressure is there because my wastegate is connected independently to whatever happens in the rest of the world! I have no variable vanes on mine.
  • siberiasiberia Posts: 520
    Can never just have a straight exchange. The pry bar I used was a 2X4. I don't use metal to metal because it damages paint. On the motor mounts I just attempted to tighten both mounts. One was still tight and the other not tight.

    On the transmission bolt there was neither shiny nor rust. If you could look at it you would need a dentist mirror and small light. While placing my finger by each bolt I pried with the 2X4 and felt the tiny movement as a tick. When it was out of the car one was tight and the other was not tight. Such are my inferior diagnostics.
  • mdamickmdamick Posts: 277
    Could you direct me to the L.O.S.T site please?
  • i pull a 30ft camper weighing 5000lbs...i have had no problems in fact the f37 recall it pulled better and less transmission changing gears,,,i recently pulled it from fay nc to miami fla with no problems and back with no problems i pulled between 60 and 65 mph and got about 16mpg :)
  • mdamickmdamick Posts: 277
    Thanks for the info.
    Mine was really plugged up also.
    I also saw that the MAF had a thick coating of very fine and oily? dust.
    I bought a new code reader. I had reset the MIL and it comes back showing low EGR flow and low boost. It would also show bad MAF data.
    I will run it a few days and let you know.
    Since this sensor is detecting the intake air temp as well as the boost pressure that would explain the black smoke. I think it detects the amount of EGR flow by the temperature increase in the manifold. With it carboned up like that all of the readings would be low and the PCM would inject lots more fuel.
  • zoomy2zoomy2 Posts: 50
    hogwild1961,

    This is good new to here! Our camper is covered in a large tarp waiting for winter to be over! I generally pull around 62 mph, keeps it in OD and running around 1900rpm. The CRD will downshift once in a while, but not to often. Like if a semi drafts off of us. I get about the same mileage (before F37). Maybe better after? Our Zoom 718FD in only 18'9" long and the CRD does quite well pulling it. We use a dead weight hitch and one friction anti-sway.

    We traded a 1998 2-door Tahoe in for the CRD and I can say it was a good thing. It pulled very well with the 350V-8 (5.7L) but 9.5 mpg and it wouldn't pull in OD.

    Looking forward for our first trip this year in a couple of months, now that winter just actually started.
  • hogwild1961, I will be pulling trailer this spring. When trailering at 60/65 did you find it most suitable to drive with OD on or off when pulling? RPMs? Thanks!
  • 76cj576cj5 Posts: 3
    Has anyone had to invoke the lemon law or start a class action litigation? I have a 2005 Diesel Liberty that has 46K miles that is at the dealer today for a split intercooler hose and a bad injector. This is the umpteenth time. I have had egr valves, glow plugs, alternator, ball joints, transmission rebuild in the last 22 months of ownership. DC is of no help. PS My family still owns the 1947 CJ2A that Dad purchased new and I still drive the 1976 CJ5 that I purchased new in December 1975.
  • 76cj576cj5 Posts: 3
    I forgt the Mass Airflow Valve and throttle position sensor were also replaced.
  • I pulled with the over drive so it drops into the last gear..had no problem i also pull with a weight dist hitch...I pull a grand surveyor ultra light
  • My Jeep Liberty CRD that I bought in late Feb '06 has just turned 38k miles, and just got a new turbo and gaskets on warranty. Prior to leaving to head up to Pa from Fl the first week of December to look at a farm I took my CRD in for the tranny recall. I had noticed a few small oil drips between the engine and tranny so put down to have the oil leak fixed as well. They did the tranny recall and said they replaced the rear seal on the engine. The CRD had 31k miles at the time. Returned from Pa and was about to leave on December 26 to head back to Pa to close on the purchase of the farm and found oil dripping again between the engine/tranny when i was doing an oil change. Took it back to the dealer on Dec 27th and told them I was about leave for Pa and it appears that I still had an oil leak, and I also observed oil on the motor mount, and as these are liquid filled, I probably had a bad mount. My mileage on that day was 35,640, and I asked them to fix it that day so that it would be covered by the original warranty. They couldn't get it in but said they would honor it when I got back, which they did at 38k+ miles. I suggest all CRD owners check the area around the turbo to see if oil is leaking. The turbo is on the right hand side (when looking forward from the drivers seat) and if it is leaking oil you will see the wetness on the right side of the engine and motor mount.

    I must say...even though I have had a few problems with the CRD...rear pinion seal, ESP clock spring, tranny recall, oil leak/turbo,... the service department at Courtesy Chrysler/Jeep in Brandon, Fl has been very professional and knowledgeable and have lessened the frustration of having issues with my CRD. I highly recommend them to anyone with a Jeep!
  • See my post #8551. I just finished with my lemon law suit. Settled for $7,600 cash and I didn't even own the vehicle when I filed the claim. Now that is sweet justice! :shades:
  • Considering purchasing a 2005 with 26,700 miles. Reading over the comments, this seems to be a polarizing vehicle.....some love it, some hate it. Not much middle ground. Are the problems mentioned being covered by Dr. Z and friends? I need a reliable daily commuter that can deliver 25mpg.
  • siberiasiberia Posts: 520
    seems to be a polarizing vehicle.....some love it, some hate it. Not much middle ground.

    Hi Damficare,

    I would argue that a substantial majority of owners love their CRDs - when they are working properly. Some bought CRDs and had unreal expectations such as thinking they were buying a rocket because of the 295 lb ft of torque when published numbers indicated that CRDs were just okay 0 to 60, not fast. Others complained about things that they should have detected during their test drive(s) and market research. Those folks seem to be on almost every site and don't count in my opinion. Most of the people who hate the CRD don't really seem to hate the vehicle. They hate the company that didn't get things quite right or the dealership that didn't treat them right - not the actual vehicle.

    The CRD has a unique combination of capabilities that do not currently exist in any other vehicle for the price, if at all. Do you really need all those capabilities? Can you be without your vehicle for a week or two if something serious goes wrong? There are lots of commuter vehicles that will get you 25 mpg on cheaper gasoline.

    For all my complaining on this site I love this vehicle and plan to stick with it as long as I can. If it turns out you are not a diesel lover ....... ?
  • zoomy2zoomy2 Posts: 50
    Holgwild1961,

    Impressive! Grand Surveyor Ultra Light! WOW! The GS-280 weights 5058 pounds dry and your CRD pulls it fine? The load capacity is another 2000+ pounds, 7000+ pounds I tip may hat to the CRD it's transmission and drivetrain!!! One tough truck. :)
  • zoomy2zoomy2 Posts: 50
    damficare,

    I have to agree with siberia. Don't buy a CRD for the mileage, buy it for the use of the vehicle. The 295 ft-lbs torque keeps the thing moving down the road with a load. Horsepower makes the acceleration and at 160hp and 4300 pounds... :surprise:

    I have a great dealer and they have been very supportive of problems and dealing with DCX. I have had the EGR and the throttle position sensor replaced along with the (2)recalls.

    I love my CRD but hate the $85+ oil changes. I pull a 4400 pound (loaded) camper and it's great! The torque is where its at for me. I do also drive 30 miles one way to work and average 24 mpg. The best was 28.5 and the worst was 18.9. Towing it gets between 15.2 and 16.4, but this was BEFORE the F37 recall and I don't know if it will change as I haven't pulled the camper yet.

    Check out to see if area dealers have any service records on this CRD you are looking at, maybe then you can determine if is was a problem for the previous owner.

    Luck by with you. :shades:
  • zooomy,

    Thats exactly what i am pulling a GS280 with no problems, It pulls around 1800rpms doing around 62 to 65 mph..I had a maxlite by rvision rs21 also it weighed around 3880 it pullled so will we upgraded to the GS..we have pulled to obx to keywest..and everywere in between..thought about adding a module...what do u think...take care
  • Is the "GS-280" not a 5th wheel travel trailer ??? How do you pull a 5th wheel with a crd ??
    Thanks,
    Skeeter
  • Just reporting back to everyone. Dealership has a Turbo on order (back ordered)to correct the grinding noise at 2500-3000rpm. They feel its the vacuum control for the turbo thats defective, I agree with that as it could cause the vanes to over rotate and act like a brake, make grinding sound like putting a baseball card in your kids bike, they never said that but thats my take. Here's the strange thing, apparently the vacuum control and the turbo charger are one part number and can not be ordered seperatly? This is one expensive machine! My status so far, 2006 CRD, 16000KM (9600 miles) with the following replaced:
    -Alternator
    -EGR
    -Rear Rotors and brake pads
    -Turbo Charger (on order)
    -Ball joints (recall)

    How can I find how find part numbers and how much these items are? The dealership has confirmed that my rig came off the assembly line with the F37 update implemented and insist the transmission is fine, I have yet to demonstrate on a road test that my torque converter will slip and lock a second time. I had a huge argument with the 4 service writers on how this transmission is supposed to work but they drift into lala land and default to the standard statement "its an adaptive transmission" and is supposed to do that. In the end a mechanic agreed the transmission should not disengage and re-engage at different RPM's while locked up in O/D on a flat highway. I'll update more as it happens, when the Turbo is changed the liberty will be for sale, its silver, loaded and mint in British Columbia. But for now does anyone know these prices, the turbo's gotta be worth a small fortune.
  • goodcrdgoodcrd Posts: 253
    Sounds like lack of lubrication or something came loose and was ingested causing damage to the turbo. How new the turbo is sounds like it was defective from day one. These turbos should last 150,000 miles plus. Today's turbos last a long time. If they do go as long as the housings are ok the rebuild costs are manageable. It gets expensive when you destroy the housings. Good luck
  • zoomy2zoomy2 Posts: 50
    thstranger,

    No its a regular travel trailer with a ball hitch. They also make them in 5th wheels but it would be hard to pull with a CRD. It does have a 420# hitch weight...ooch!

    copy and paste to google search

    http://www.forestriverinc.com/nd/default22.asp?page=floor&choice=survg&nav=rec
  • mdamickmdamick Posts: 277
    The turbo should last the life of the engine+. My Dodge Diesel has 218000 with absolutely no problems.
    I would not expect the grinding noise to be caused by the vanes "over rotating". I would agree with bearing failure, the turbines could be hitting the housing. I would make sure they check the oil pressure and passages.

    I have 64000 mi on mine. My current problems are a recurrent MIL caused by either Low EGR flow or low boost pressure. I am not sure if the EGR is intermittent sticky open and shut or if the programming is poor.
    If the EGR sticks closed it runs much better, power off the line and much smoother running.
  • siberiasiberia Posts: 520
    My current problems are a recurrent MIL caused by either Low EGR flow or low boost pressure

    Have you cleaned your boost sensor?

    It is easier to clean than changing a spark plug. It is located on top rear of the intake manifold on the driver side. It's right behind the fuel pressure sensor that is attached to the fuel rail. Just remove the engine cover and unplug the electrical connector on the fuel pressure sensor and the boost sensor. It's held on by one 4mm allen the goes straight down. It is sealed in the manifold by an O-ring that stays with the sensor when it is easily pulled out. There is a washer on the allen screw to watch for. The sensor cleans up easily with brake clean and compressed air or maybe just compressed air. Some use carb cleaner. I think that stuff is a little harsh to use on plastic but it's said to be okay.
  • Thanks Zoomy,
    I couldn't find one with a hitch is why I thought they were all 5th wheels....My wife is wanting a 17' casita, but I have noticed that the trim around the doors and window's seem to "yellow" over time and I don't like that !!! I kinda like the "Fun Finder" & the "Zoom" but she doesn't like the graphic's on those :( lol !!! I have never towed ANYTHING at all except the one time last july right after we got the CRD and I was going to tow my 1974 cj5 from Albemarle NC to Ocracoke NC with a tow bar (did not have the brake buddy) NOT A GOOD IDEA !!! So I pulled it around what we call "the block" about 3-4 miles and that was enough !!! Would you still choose the Zoom over other small to mid-sized travel trailers now that you have one ??
    Thanks,
    Skeeter
  • mdamickmdamick Posts: 277
    Yes I have thanks to your information. I used a combination of carb cleaner and contact cleaner. It was really covered.
    I have been monitoring the IAT and MAP levels with my code reader. When it runs best the IAT is low but then I get a Low EGR fault. When it is doggy and misfires off idle the IAT is up but I get the Low Boost Pressure Fault.
    I was thinking the sensor may be faulty, but the consistency leads me to believe that it is an EGR valve or programming issue. I have determined which part of the sensor is the IAT and I am going to put a potentiometer on it to adjust the level and see if things settle down.
  • the gs280 is a travel trailer they make everything from pop ups to motor homes
  • faroutfarout Posts: 1,609
    thstranger: Have you had the F37 done yet? Have you changed the fluid in the axles and the transfer case yet? I have 27,900 miles on the "Green Beast" now. I have been looking at what the owners manual says and the booklet that came with the Jeep packet and there are some real differences. Which one is right? If we did everything the booklet says and or the owners manual a oil change plus the other things I think it would cost nearly $300. each time. That's a no go for me. My selling dealer is pushing do do things that to me seem like a money graben jerk.

    Farout
  • zoomy2zoomy2 Posts: 50
    If your better half doesn't like the Zoom look at an ECO:

    http://www.eco-rv.com/

    It the same but different graphics. I didn't like the Funfinder and the FunfinderX as they looked cheap. The Casita are nice but I think they're traditional fiberglass and they will yellow in time.

    I have pulled various boat and camper trailers up to 8600 pounds (Coachman 5th wheel) since I was legal to drive (ok before that). One just has to remember to brake sooner, and watch going around corners. Just be more defensive.

    We looked at many smaller trailers over the years and we like the Trailite and the Aerolite models. We purchased a Aerolite Cub C210D a 21 footer, but got really tired setting up of the bunkends, load equalizer hitch (over 500#) with the twin cam anti-sway...just was too much work to go have fun. The Zoom has a dead weight hitch (250#) and pulls better behind the CRD. Back-up hook on and go!! :shades:

    My Zoom is number 29 off the assembly line (or all of the part tags were labeled 29). I would buy another tomorrow. It's not one of the cheaper units out there, it's $3000 over a Fundfinder.

    GO here to see what I have said about the Zoom I have:

    http://www.dutchmen-rv-forum.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=29

    It's not perfect but what is.
  • faroutfarout Posts: 1,609
    zoomy2: I looked at the eco-rv, and it looks very simular to the Zoom, or am I wrong. How do the two compair in cost? We are still looking, but so far we have not decided one way or theother. We have looked at the cost per month of buying one and the insuance. For what we might pay per month and the cost of extra fuel, plus the price of the place you camp in, it sorta looks like we could stay in some super nice hotels or motels. We think we would finance it for 8 years, which for us being retired, seems like a long time.
    I am interested in how your CRD pulls it after the F37. How many miles do you have on your CRD now?

    Farout
  • 76cj576cj5 Posts: 3
    I am pulling info to back up claim. In 23 months of ownership My 2005 CRD Limited has been in the Dealer's Shop 13 times for a total of 96 days and counting that is 14% of the time of ownership. I will agree when it runs it has good performance, however an average of 25 days a month service is totally uncalled for in a new vehicle. I would not recommend purchase of the diesel equipted Liberty.
  • zoomy2zoomy2 Posts: 50
    farout,

    The ECO and the Zoom are the same. ECO is sold under the Scamper name and the Zoom is under the Aerolite name. I would think the prices are the same.

    We haven't pulled the camper yet since the F37 was done. Our Zoom is wrapped up in a tarp for a couple more months. I'll let everyone know when I know, I don't expect a change.

    I didn't price the ECO as it was introduced in different markets areas then the Zoom. We bought our Zoom (1) month after Thor Industries (Aerolite) introduced them to the market, the smaller models weren't even made yet. There were not many dealers in our area. We bought ours ar Tom Raper RV in Indiana (a (2+) hour drive). We had to get information from the manufacturer not from the dealer, I'm sure that has changed by now. All ECO & Zooms at the dealers are 2007 models. The dealer just got the first (2) units instock a couple of days before we brought ours. We were looking at buying a [email protected] before the Zoom. We like the idea of the bathroom.

    It's a tough call but you are right camping fees, fuel and purchase cost, etc. added up; one could travel and stay in hotels but it nice to have our home with you.

    My uncle and aunt did the hotel route and my parents bought a class C mini motor home and when traveling and camping. I don't know which one is better. I'll drive the CRD with my Zoom in tow. I like campgrounds better than hotels.

    I have turned over 34,000, this spring the transfer case, differentials get a fluid changed oh! and the tranny...ooch!$$

    They now have a 13' and a 16' single axle units that may work for you....
  • synlubessynlubes Posts: 184
    just changed my crd to amsoil atf just unhook the cooling line let idle to pump out old fluid about two minutes hook line back up and fill with about ten quarts thats all have done dozens of trannys this way and works fine
  • Hi Farout,
    I have a 06 CRD that I bought in July and I haven't received any info on having the "F37" done, I also checked Jeep.com and it tells me all recalls are complete !! So I guess i'll just keep checking once a month or so ?? I now have 6200 miles on mine and have not done anything but an oil change so far but I think i'm going to take a look at that "sensor" that has been talked about and clean it..I don't have the owners manual with me right now but I think it has a schedule A & schedule B I'm not sure about a packet ?? I change my own oil and anything else I think I "might" can do, I had to drive about 8 hours away to get the CRD I wanted so I have to use our local dealer for "recalls & I did have to have the transmission silinoid "spelled wrong" changed" !! The dealer here has been helpful both times but if I can do it myself I feel better about it being done right and not a rush job or a bad day in the life of the tech. ect...That sounds like a dealer, either they are too busy and don't have time to get to your auto or they are slow and wanna do "maintance" that is really not needed !!!
    Take care,
    Skeeter
  • Thanks Zoomy, I'll check those sites out now !! Thank again for the info and we will be looking soon I hope !!
    Happy Camping to you & yours,
    Skeeter
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