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Comments
This very much explains the mediocre gas mileage.
- Jaz
The 5 will likely have the higher vantage point so many people like, and more upright seating.
Sounds like a 6th ratio might do the trick to lower highway revs and improve mileage, eh?
-juice
Even a Corolla has a tall enough top gear that it is going 2100 rpm @ 60 mph. That would be about 2,800 rpm @ 80 mph. 4,000 rpm at 76 is absurd.
While I am very impressed with the 5 - especially the available manual tranny. I would take the very nimble and efficient (and more practical to me) Focus wagon over it any day. I can also order it just how I want it with leather, no sunroof etc. Is the Focus perfect - no, if it was I would have one now. As it is I will keep driving my perfectly servicable Integra hatch (177,000 extremely reliable miles)
If the 5 had the option of a real seat for 3 in the middle and got better gas mileage it would be near the top of my list.
People are not dumb. They compare the little minivan to a larger one, and when the little one offers less space with no real improvement in fuel mileage many people do not see the point. It may handle well, but the Odyssey is moderately nimble, as are many sports wagons that compete with the 5.
I had my cousin's for a week when she traveled overseas, and it was hard to get used to such a large vehicle.
I swear, those things should beep in reverse!
MPV is more manageable but still a lot bigger than the 5.
I don't think they'll drive the same, not at all IMO.
-juice
21-28mpg MT
20-26mpg AT.
4.388 final drive ratio.
No DSC.
Thanks.
-Jaz
-Brian
Possibly FoMoCo needs to come up with a "tweener" engine somewhere between 2.3L and 3.0? Somewhere around 2.5-2.6L? It'd probably also make a good base engine for the Mazda6, since I hear the 2.3L really isn't enough engine in there, and the 6 is supposed to get bigger at some point.
A/T 21/26 MPG
M/T final drive 4.388
A/T final drive 4.416
A 5 will do fine on the highway with taller gearing.
21/26 is about the same as Sienna and Odyssey and they weigh about 1,200 lbs more, and have much more air resistance. They also have large V-6 engines.
-juice
-juice
The number of units sold does not change the fact that it did fine on the highway without super short gearing despite being larger with less power. I have driven ours over the Rockies with 5 people and absolutely jammed with luggage. Yes it had to downshift, but we always kept up with traffic.
I still get a giggle when people doubt that the 4-cyl 6 (or Accord Camry etc) will do well on the highway. The darn things go 130 mph - how fast do people drive?
A 6-speed could fix it, but the MZ3 final drive ratio which is already too high would seem a better choice and maybe the MPG numbers would have been a little better. It is not going to be a fast accelerating car anyway.
So now it appears that we will have a car that is probably not a good highway cruiser, mediocre MPG and not even traction control all based on simple and bad decisions. It seems the need for traction control is more pronounced on this car because they added 100's of pounds to the back of the car, so the drive wheels carry a reduced proportion of the overall weight. DSC is such a natural and I can't get over this really poor decision when the Premacy Site makes a big deal of the superiority of DSC, and yet there it is on the same assembly line going into the Japanese 2.3 MZ5's (Premacy's).
It looks like all the stats we have are pretty well verified now, so the MZ5 at least in it's introduction configuration is off my short list.
This has me seriously considering an Ody. Not the same driving experience, but the same MPG, DSC standard on the base model, higher resale, excellent safety.
-Jaz
I don't mind the 2.3L engine as the power plant for the 5 if it is done right. A test drive is the only way to determine if it fits the bill or not.
To me, if this thing is buzzing close to 4K at 76 mph, it is immediately off the list. Cut the gearing, and up the MPG and comfort level.
That gearing is even worse than my Miata, which certainly was buzzing along on the highway. Even makes my Scion tC look good 9and it is geared much shorter than it needs to be), since it will do ~88 mph at 4K.
If you gotta work the little engine this hard to keep up, just put in a bigger engine, which if geared normally, will give better performance and MPG.
But, if they drop in the powertrain from the speed version, I might come back.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
The 5 seems smaller, I dunno. I saw it up on the stand at NAIAS, so I did not get in it or even next to it.
-juice
That's exactly what I've been saying.
I'm beginning to get the picture that Mazda is targeting this car for families which are on a budget but need a people-mover -- hence cost-cutting measures such as: no DSC, 4-speed auto, 4-cyl motor.
The crazy final drive ratio seals the deal for me...I'm not listening to a 4,000 rpm buzz on our annual family road trip from Iowa to Massachusetts, thankyouverymuch.
So close...
But noise is more of a concern to me, I wonder if it'll be quiet at 70.
I had a buzzy engine in an Escort GT, that revved high and it did get annoying on long trips. I'd do 14 hour spring break drives to Florida. Those were the days.
Get ear plugs? :-)
-juice
-Jaz
Besides, "Best of Sesame Street" sounds worse than loud engine revs. :-)
-juice
Doesn't Mazda research this stuff?
There's a big audience here in the US just waiting for a reasonably big yet high-mileage vehicle.
Nothing else seems to be coming down the pipeline. Think I'm going to look at a Vibe tomorrow.
Yes, nobody (car makers) seems to get that there isn't much point in a small vehicle that gets worse mileage than a much larger one (and is noisy to boot). Something like an Accord or Camry wagon would be very comfortable for 5 (or the Mazda 5 if configured correctly) and would have a ton of space. Both these vehicles get 24-26 EPA city and 33-34 highway (in sedan form), so why does the similarly sized Mazda 5 use so much fuel. Gotta gear it taller. It is a 4-cyl wagon/van, nobody is gonna drag race it. It will be faster than my firt gen Ody even if it keeps the gearing from the 6.
I have high hopes for this segment (largish wagon/smallish van)- hopefully Mazda will spur other entries. What I fear though is that they will set it up for failure by undermarketing and offering options/combos that people don't want.
I still find it absurd that some companies will offer 7 or 8 suv's but only have room for 1 minivan.
Vibe would be close for me too, but since it is 7 inches shorter than the Corolla it is based on, luggage space is not very good. A corolla wagon (available elsewhere) has much more cargo area.
Mine is a white 1990 that we purchased new. Not too many others around - ours is the only one in town. I saw a light blue 4 door of that vintage a few years ago. What color what yours.
Rapid city is the nearest Mazda dealer at 175 miles away, so I may have to rely on reports from others once this thing hits dealers.
But, if they need the short gearing to keep up around town, add a gear to each one to calm it down at highway speeds.
I was just reading the review on the new BMW 3 series, and always read the MPH/1K RPM chart (especially after ending up with a tC that's geared too short). ANyway, 3K in 5th gives about 69MPH, but about 82 in 6th.
You want solutions?? I got your solutions right here!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
-juice
Base model starting under $20,000 Canadian, available early Summer 2005 in Toronto Canada.
Keep it simple, under 180 inches bumper-to-bumper and still seats 3 split rows with great mileage is good science ... like the VW Microbus Diesel.
The seats appear to fold neatly, unlike the Element's, which you'd have to remove to have that kind of space.
-juice
What are some other cars rated in Canada for comparison?
The 5 will be just like the MPV...a family hauler with that little extra Mazda something. Just like my old Protege...sure it was buzzy at speed and did not get the same mileage as a Corolla...but it won or came close to winning almost every comparison because it was so much fun to drive.
We have enough Toyota clones...be happy with the ability to stuff 6 people in there and still have a little more fun than the next guy with the mongovan.
It is all about subtleties!
Fixing the buzziness on the highway is as simple as adding an extra gear. Those who want instant throttle response on the highway don't need to use that gear.
Volvo used to have button for their top gear in a manual tranny. You shifted the first 4 gears normally and then when you were cruising on the highway you pushed a button on top of the shifter to put the car in 5th gear. This was to hammer home the fact that the top gear was for fast highway cruising, and was not part of the everyday shift pattern.
The 2nd row captain's chairs do look very comfy and that interior looks very versatile.
-juice
BTW I would love to have this vehicle with a common rail diesel engine. Wonder which company will be the first to bring one over to this side of the pond in a minivan. My bet is Daimler-Chrysler.
It's from a Mazda dealer who got his info from Mazda. There is a verifying source on another site which was refered to further back in this thread. That source also comes from Mazda.
I also hope the numbers aren't right but the sources are solid and I think they are correct.
Anyway, we don't have to decide until the car comes out.
-Jaz
Was reading about the Avalon recently (yes different class, but it is huge inside) and it gets EPA 22/31 with a 280 hp V-6. One of the car mags got it at 6.5 to 60 mph. Quite impressive on power for that efficiency.
My tC is geared short too, and is rated at 29 (I think) highway, but I was able to easily get 33 on a trip at normal speeds.
Some cars test well, and some real world well. They aren't always the same.
Forgetting the MPG (still better than a normal van or SUV), it's the buzz factor that would ice me out.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
-Jaz