Oh nono...all they have to do is classify it as a "light truck" and then it counts under different rules and they can put a diesel in it up here.
The thing is, the Mazda5 COULD probably be classified as a "light truck" if they wish, same as the PT Cruiser and Dodge Magnum...flat load floor if the seats are removed.
I live in a CARB state. CARB states you're not allowed to sell diesel CARS, but they sell diesel "trucks" all the time. See the Dodge Sprinter van, the Ford F250, the Chevy Silverado.
CARB sez no diesel CARS. But certain vehicles, they can get away with saying they're not cars. That's how they get around CAFE with the SUVs, as well as the Dodge Magnum and PT Cruiser. SO Jeep COULD....maybe they AREN'T...no idea why.
I think certain manufacturers have figured out the EPA magic and can generate artificially high number by tuning and gearing the cars for the EPA test specifically.
Odysseys with VCM aren't doing significantly better than those without it. That's a disappointment because I think the technology has huge potential.
I live in a CARB state. CARB states you're not allowed to sell diesel CARS, but they sell diesel "trucks" all the time. See the Dodge Sprinter van, the Ford F250, the Chevy Silverado.
Note, those are all over a certain gross vehicle weight which makes them commerical vehicles - that gets around the emissions issue. Now many of them are sold as personal vehicles but for classification for emissions purposes, they are commericial vehicles.
That whole loophole is such a scam. All vehicles with personal liscence plates should be treated the same. Same CAFE standard, same safety standard etc. If you buy a "commercial" vehicle it should have commercial plates.
Well at one time MA considered all pickups to be commericial vehicles and as such had to carry commercial plates and insurance. They were subject to local bylaws which in some towns included no overnight parking - even in your own driveway. They could not be driven on "pleasure roads".
That included my brother's little Ram 50 nee Mitsubishi pickup.
Now my boss has a Surbuban 2500 for his wife. Because the company owns it and it it over a certain GVW, it has commercial plates and it affects how he can park it in his tony suburb. But it is anything but commercial.
Rob2, Exactly correct. You put this better then I did. It is not a matter of a mfg declaring the car is a light truck. It has to be commercial and I believe that means 6,000lbs to get around the otherwise impossible CARB standard. Mazda could deliver a Diesel MZ5 whenever they want in non-CARB. I think the light truck designation does slightly ease pollution standards in some cases but it is not enough to get a Diesel into a CARB state, it may make it easier for Diesel to hit standards in non-CARB (but that is do-able any way, as in VW TDI). Well we're just day-dreaming anyway. No Diesel MZ5's any time soon. I put my check book away.
Hi there, newbie to this board. I am looking for a replacement for my 94 Dodge Colt Wagon (Mitsu Expo) and this seems like the idea car for me. Anyways, I live in Vancouver Canada and the local dealer (Signature Mazda) says they are getting some 5's in sometime in April. He said that they don't have much info on them, just that they will be in the mid $20,000CDN range. Some customers have already pre-ordered. I was all set to buy a Matrix when I ran into this forum. Nothing in the last 10 years has matched the versatility of my Colt, only thing wrong with it is only one sliding door, and a buzzy engine (136hp). We have the Autoshow here April 1st, so hopefully they will have one to look at in the meantime.
Yes 6, not 7 or 8, we have a 04 Honda Pilot EX, it only has 6,000 miles because my wife avoids driving it, and instead always drives my 05 Focus. I need a right size 6 passenger car that has excellent driving dynamics, Mazda with its zoom-zoom nature just might do, I might trade the leased Pilot next year for the Mazda5 so my wife will finally drive the family SUV. Early 06 will do after all the excitement settles down.
My advice- don't bet on DCX for a DIESEL minivan. They just put an outdated 2.8 turbo Italian engine on Liberty- and it sucks...Mercedes will not trade its Diesel common rail jewel fleet of engines for any cheap badge. My feeling based on working in automotive devlpmnt. is that Diesel expansion in the minivan and SUV segment will come later after 2007, having leader the King of Diesel =VW Wait, as I wait...and will see ) Dan
part of the delay with diesels is related to the ever changing EPA rules...Ford was working on a new 6cyl diesel for their mid sized trucks but they canceled the program due to the substantial changes in EPA requirements for next year.
Also...don't forget the NY auto show starts this weekend. MZ5 is scheduled to be there
I’ve seen pics that showed that x-tra articulated module betw. 2-nd row seats, and some pics that does not show that. This would be the case for having or not 3 seats in the middle. Would you please check this out @ NY Autoshow ( did not see that @ NAIAS in Detroit). Thanks in advance! Dan
The Mazda Canada site (under the M5 section) put out some preliminary mileage specs. The auto will get about 25/34 city/hwy (imperial mpg)...(that's about 21/28 south of the border) with the 5 speed bettering those #'s only slightly. Expected curb weights between 3300 & 3400 lbs. Considering a V6 Auto Sienna gets 23/34 imp.mpg and a Matrix gets it's 34 rating in city driving (and 45 on the hwy), the numbers, while not unexpected, are rather disappointing. I'd like to see Honda or Toyota do a vehicle like this and see what kind of mileage #'s they'd get.
I was wondering if Mazda has improved their build quality from the 1999/2000 model year era? I'm strictly speaking of their stuff not the stuff built with Ford. I owned a 2000 Mazda Protege that needed a new tranny at 30,000 miles. It was covered under the warranty, however it shook my confidence in Mazda. I got to say the new Mazda5 has me intrigued.
My 2000 Protege ES is zooming along quite problem-free at 90,400 miles this morning. Its extreme reliability is one reason I'm holding off buying a Mazda3 until I've had a chance to check out the Mazda5 -- this no-payment thing, combined with a car that just won't quit making me smile, is too good!
Check out this page on the Japanese Premacy (JDM) site, which shows the non-NA market setup for the 2nd row tray and +One seat. Scroll down to the bottom. The uplevel trim in NA will feature the fold down tray but not the +One seat.
carzzz: Yes, fuel economy doesn't look good and the NA edition starts at 3333lbs. Rumored EPA numbers are on a previous page along with the tall gearing Mazda has specified for faster acceleration. Hopefully there will be a more economical direct injection or hybrid model down the line.
"Yes, fuel economy doesn't look good and the NA edition starts at 3333lbs. Rumored EPA numbers are on a previous page along with the tall gearing Mazda has specified for faster acceleration. Hopefully there will be a more economical direct injection or hybrid model down the line."
Seems that Mazda has trouble building both a sporty and a fuel efficient vehicle in the same package. (excluding the Mazda3) With a gallon of gas selling for $2.00 and up, the Mazda MX-Flexa / Mazda5 is sounding too pricey to be a good commuter.
Estimates I heard are 21/26 auto and 22/27 manual.
It feels small inside, I got to sit in all 3 rows. Call it a 4+2, the back is for kids. You have to move the seats forward to have foot room, and even then it's tight.
It has theatre seating so the 2nd row is higher than the first. Sliding doors open wide, too.
Squeezed them for a price estimate, they say $17,995 freight included for starters. Not bad for a list price.
Seating for 4 does not impress me. A 6 wagon is more usefull for me, but it is a guzzler as well since you can't get it with a 4-cyl (20/27 and 19/26).
I don't get why access to the rear seats is important if they are not for adults. Tilt the middle row forward and let the kids climb back there - no need for a center aisle.
This vehicle is close, but not there for me.
Take an Accord and make it a wagon. It will still get 26/34 mpg, and it will have great room for 5 and room in the way back for two kids. I think that recipe would sell bunches, IF marketed correctly. It never will be marketed because it would take away far to many SUV sales, and they are more profitable.
I knew the MZ5 was going to be a low volume car but its going to be really low volume...I was on a conf. call with Mazda today and they told us that they are only shipping 2000 MZ5 to the US. for the year. Small dealers will get one and the big dealers will get 5 or so.
Unless this is the biggest flop of all time they will be sold out in less than a month after the intro.
that makes an S2000 look like a high volume everymans car.
You sure that wasn't in Yen??
Mazda really does enjoy shooting itself in the foot. This could have been a real winner, but the whole RPM/MPG issue is going to hurt bad, and if they aren't even going to make many, why bother?
WOnder if the old 1.8V6 could be resurected, bored out, and jammed inthis baby? Either that, or put the Turbo motor and better gearing in it, and it would be faster and more economical probably.
It makes sence to test the waters first...there is no reason to ship in 20,000 units if there isnt going to be the demand for such a unique product...if they all sell right away they can ramp up and increase production for 2007.
Don't forget, the US isnt the only place they are going to sell this product. so its not like they are only building 2000 units for worldwide consumption.
Does anyone know what the volume cut off is to avoid alot of government testing??? There is a specific number but I'm not sure what it is.
This may not be definitive but NHTSA considers low volume manufacturers to be those that manufacturer less than 10,000 vehicles worldwide. It applies to total volume - not model volume.
Maybe old news, but they expected to sell 3,000 per month in Japan and sold 6,500 the first month. I would expect they will sell well in Europe. Most of the cars sold there will get decent to really good fuel mileage whereas our version is quite the opposite. So it is not too surprising NA is a low priority, and they will just test the waters initially.
But they've spent probably a couple of million to federalize it. You do your research before spending the money. Dipping your toes in the waters doesn't make sense in the sub $20K auto market when you have to spend that much money.
I bet they'll sell more than 2000 in Canada...in fact, I bet they'll sell that many in Quebec alone. Though if the mileage #'s were better and there was a non-tunerized trim level, they'd sell tons more.
Rich, they're tooling up for 1,700 per month to this market. I just confirmed this number today from 'upstairs.' I'm not sure who told you 2,000 for 2005 but I dare say that they may have mis-spoken.
If you're right and 2,000 units are it, I think that's going to equate to a huge marketing blunder. But, I don't expect much from Mazda's marketing people anymore.
We were told this by the mazda region zone office on a conf. call this morning. Several dealers even asked them to confirm the number and they repeated it several times. We are one of the largest dealers in CT and we have been told to expect no more than 3-5 units.
perhaps they mean 2000 units until the end of this calender year to see how things go???
Seems this can be viewed from a NA perspective or a world marketing perspective and it looks logical to me from a world perspective.
I think the much-better-then-expected results at home has them rethinking their allocation strategy resulting in a reduced allocation for NA. They may be manufacturing-limited short-term, and I can understand them allocating mostly to markets where this genre of vehicle is very popular (and probably more critical to compete in with your latest technology ASAP) and temporarily cutting back allocations here where sales of that genre are more "promising" then proven - and where there isn't much direct competition anyway. So why not cut back NA allocation and test the water in NA when it's looking like you can initially sell everything you can make on the world market anyway? I doubt they will hold back when they are satisfied they are meeting demands in their more critical markets and in the meantime they will get some more data on NA demand. The federalization expense is a given that they have to do sometime anyway to release the car here. I think they have done their homework and are confident in selling more then 2K per year.
I think you're right. I think the US, the land of the bigger-is-better, may be the one market where Mazda is not sure whether a micro-van will be warmly received.
Re: the production numbers... I'm going to get out my ouga (sp) board and will you to be wrong. I think 2,000 is a huge mistake if that's what they're doing. I relayed what you had said about 2000 units and was told that someone had their wires crossed b/c the plant in Japan was set to pump out the 1,700 per month for NA. Now... and of course they're closed till Tuesday... I think both could be right. 2,000 for this year (mistake, Mazda!) and push 1,700 per month starting the beginning of the year?
They would not reveal when pricing would come out, but he seemed pretty confident about the $17,995 (freight included), hence the very specific number. That's for the Sport.
The Touring will cost more, of course, I'd guess $19,995 just so they can advertise "under $20k".
Perhaps what you don't understand is that the although the vehicle is being sold worldwide, there are specific engineering changes that have to be made for sale in North America including bumper design and headlights. Those typically are unique to this market. Also, money has to be spent on EPA and safety testing in order to be certified in North America.
I believe I once read that certifying a vehicle for sale in North America costs a minimum of $2 million. At a volume of 2,000 units, Mazda is already in the hole $1,000 per vehicle. Further, since it is a sub $20K MSRP vehicle, the manufacturer profit is already pretty low. At that volume, it'll take a long time to consider it a success IMHO. At that volume it won't even justify spending any money on training, advertising, or support!! IMHO, that number must be wrong. Even audia8q says the biggest dealers in the country will only get 5 units. There are probably more than 5 colors!!
I realize the M5 will be a low volume product in North America. But I doubt that Mazda has set it's expectations that low.
Robr2. I have no disagreement on what certification is or what it costs, but the certification is not an annual expense, it can cover several years and it looks like the 2K allocation is temporary with more like 1,700 per month or 20,000 year to be the real target. Doesn't seem like such a problem..
I have requested a clarification on the volume numbers, hopefully I will hear today or Monday...Here is something that leads me to believe the initial US MZ5 shipments will be very low...Mazda has no mazda5 advertising planned other than internet. I have their ad planning thru year end and the MZ6Speed and new Miata have substantial launch budgets....the MZ5 has almost none. There is no way they are going to ship in 2000 cars per month with no tier 1 advertising.
It looks to me like they will test the waters and if it goes well they will increase things and we will be off to the races. Spending a couple million on certifications is cheaper than a $40 million dollar launch budget if the car fails.
It almost makes you wonder why they bothered. These kinds of toe-in-the-water launches almost always are self-defeating, and then everybody stands around and says that Americans "won't buy this or that kind of car". I want something like the M5 very badly, but everyone involved keeps getting cold feet - MB just pulled the plug on the B-Class for our market, VW probably won't even try to sell us the Golf Plus, and Mazda clearly doesn't know what it has here, either. Only Audi with the A3 seems to want to stay in the game, and technically, the A3 isn't really in the class of big-inside-small-outside [what EU calls generically an MPV]. Very disappointing.
if it works, watch every carmaker from here to the moon produce this class of car. me too syndrome will kick in..
Remember when everyone thought Ford was nuts to build something called an Explorer back in the early 90s'?? no way will families buy something like that, was the quote from the pres of another major car company...well the rest is history. Ford had some guts back then coming off the huge success of the Taurus...car campanies are a little more timid these days.
...this is just a hot-button issue for me. The claim that Americans "won't buy hatchbacks" is a real hoot when 50% of the market is SUVs, for example. Another example is BMW and the 1er - when the car finally gets here, we will get the least practical and most cramped 3-box versions [traditional 2 and 4 doors with trunk], rather than the much more usable 5-door that is already for sale in Europe.
You're right - real innovation in the car game is an expensive and risky business. But you have to have the guts, and to be fair, a fat checkbook, to see a payoff - Toyota decided to dive off the deep end with hybrids, and they are going to own the market. They could afford to be wrong, of course, but I don't see the huge risk of a company like Mazda with the M5. Sometimes I think the marketeers live in some kind of parallel universe that barely intersects with the real world...
Comments
The thing is, the Mazda5 COULD probably be classified as a "light truck" if they wish, same as the PT Cruiser and Dodge Magnum...flat load floor if the seats are removed.
-Jaz
CARB sez no diesel CARS. But certain vehicles, they can get away with saying they're not cars. That's how they get around CAFE with the SUVs, as well as the Dodge Magnum and PT Cruiser.
Odysseys with VCM aren't doing significantly better than those without it. That's a disappointment because I think the technology has huge potential.
-juice
Note, those are all over a certain gross vehicle weight which makes them commerical vehicles - that gets around the emissions issue. Now many of them are sold as personal vehicles but for classification for emissions purposes, they are commericial vehicles.
That included my brother's little Ram 50 nee Mitsubishi pickup.
Now my boss has a Surbuban 2500 for his wife. Because the company owns it and it it over a certain GVW, it has commercial plates and it affects how he can park it in his tony suburb. But it is anything but commercial.
-Jaz
My feeling based on working in automotive devlpmnt. is that Diesel expansion in the minivan and SUV segment will come later after 2007, having leader the King of Diesel =VW
Wait, as I wait...and will see
Dan
Also...don't forget the NY auto show starts this weekend. MZ5 is scheduled to be there
I'll check the interior space usage and ask about the mileage and gearing.
-juice
With REAL AMERICAN-SIZED PEOPLE in the seats and standing beside it for some much-needed reference!!!
Meade
This would be the case for having or not 3 seats in the middle.
Would you please check this out @ NY Autoshow ( did not see that @ NAIAS in Detroit).
Thanks in advance!
Dan
I'm about 6', 215 lbs, and I can barely fit in my own Miata, so I'll be looking at the new MX-5 closely.
-juice
Meade
http://www.premacy.mazda.co.jp/premacy_spec.pdf
Comparison
Mazda 5 1490kg = 3278lb (auto)
Mazda 3 1273kg = 2800lb (Sedan auto)
Mazda 3 1296kg = 2851lb (GT auto)
Mazda 6 1402kg = 3084lb (Sedan auto)
Mazda 6 1450kg = 3198lb (Sport auto)
this car is going to be underpower = low mileage!
http://www.premacy.mazda.co.jp/appeal1.html
carzzz: Yes, fuel economy doesn't look good and the NA edition starts at 3333lbs. Rumored EPA numbers are on a previous page along with the tall gearing Mazda has specified for faster acceleration. Hopefully there will be a more economical direct injection or hybrid model down the line.
Seems that Mazda has trouble building both a sporty and a fuel efficient vehicle in the same package. (excluding the Mazda3) With a gallon of gas selling for $2.00 and up, the Mazda MX-Flexa / Mazda5 is sounding too pricey to be a good commuter.
It feels small inside, I got to sit in all 3 rows. Call it a 4+2, the back is for kids. You have to move the seats forward to have foot room, and even then it's tight.
It has theatre seating so the 2nd row is higher than the first. Sliding doors open wide, too.
Squeezed them for a price estimate, they say $17,995 freight included for starters. Not bad for a list price.
The MX-5 impressed me more, though.
-juice
I don't get why access to the rear seats is important if they are not for adults. Tilt the middle row forward and let the kids climb back there - no need for a center aisle.
This vehicle is close, but not there for me.
Take an Accord and make it a wagon. It will still get 26/34 mpg, and it will have great room for 5 and room in the way back for two kids. I think that recipe would sell bunches, IF marketed correctly. It never will be marketed because it would take away far to many SUV sales, and they are more profitable.
Unless this is the biggest flop of all time they will be sold out in less than a month after the intro.
You sure that wasn't in Yen??
Mazda really does enjoy shooting itself in the foot. This could have been a real winner, but the whole RPM/MPG issue is going to hurt bad, and if they aren't even going to make many, why bother?
WOnder if the old 1.8V6 could be resurected, bored out, and jammed inthis baby? Either that, or put the Turbo motor and better gearing in it, and it would be faster and more economical probably.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Don't forget, the US isnt the only place they are going to sell this product. so its not like they are only building 2000 units for worldwide consumption.
Does anyone know what the volume cut off is to avoid alot of government testing??? There is a specific number but I'm not sure what it is.
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/cafe/FuelEconUpdates/1997/Index.html#fe10
This only covers fuel economy but afaik all cars sold in the United States have to meet safety and emissions requirements.
But audia8q - don't you think that 2000 units for the entire year is a bit small? I mean how do you really measure those results?
If you're right and 2,000 units are it, I think that's going to equate to a huge marketing blunder. But, I don't expect much from Mazda's marketing people anymore.
perhaps they mean 2000 units until the end of this calender year to see how things go???
I think the much-better-then-expected results at home has them rethinking their allocation strategy resulting in a reduced allocation for NA. They may be manufacturing-limited short-term, and I can understand them allocating mostly to markets where this genre of vehicle is very popular (and probably more critical to compete in with your latest technology ASAP) and temporarily cutting back allocations here where sales of that genre are more "promising" then proven - and where there isn't much direct competition anyway. So why not cut back NA allocation and test the water in NA when it's looking like you can initially sell everything you can make on the world market anyway? I doubt they will hold back when they are satisfied they are meeting demands in their more critical markets and in the meantime they will get some more data on NA demand. The federalization expense is a given that they have to do sometime anyway to release the car here. I think they have done their homework and are confident in selling more then 2K per year.
-Jaz
A young couple with a small or soon to be family who isnt quite ready for a minivan due to cost and image.
Re: the production numbers... I'm going to get out my ouga (sp) board and will you to be wrong. I think 2,000 is a huge mistake if that's what they're doing. I relayed what you had said about 2000 units and was told that someone had their wires crossed b/c the plant in Japan was set to pump out the 1,700 per month for NA. Now... and of course they're closed till Tuesday... I think both could be right. 2,000 for this year (mistake, Mazda!) and push 1,700 per month starting the beginning of the year?
I'll have to get clarification on Tuesday.
The Touring will cost more, of course, I'd guess $19,995 just so they can advertise "under $20k".
-juice
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Perhaps what you don't understand is that the although the vehicle is being sold worldwide, there are specific engineering changes that have to be made for sale in North America including bumper design and headlights. Those typically are unique to this market. Also, money has to be spent on EPA and safety testing in order to be certified in North America.
I believe I once read that certifying a vehicle for sale in North America costs a minimum of $2 million. At a volume of 2,000 units, Mazda is already in the hole $1,000 per vehicle. Further, since it is a sub $20K MSRP vehicle, the manufacturer profit is already pretty low. At that volume, it'll take a long time to consider it a success IMHO. At that volume it won't even justify spending any money on training, advertising, or support!! IMHO, that number must be wrong. Even audia8q says the biggest dealers in the country will only get 5 units. There are probably more than 5 colors!!
I realize the M5 will be a low volume product in North America. But I doubt that Mazda has set it's expectations that low.
-Jaz
It looks to me like they will test the waters and if it goes well they will increase things and we will be off to the races. Spending a couple million on certifications is cheaper than a $40 million dollar launch budget if the car fails.
if it works, watch every carmaker from here to the moon produce this class of car. me too syndrome will kick in..
Remember when everyone thought Ford was nuts to build something called an Explorer back in the early 90s'?? no way will families buy something like that, was the quote from the pres of another major car company...well the rest is history. Ford had some guts back then coming off the huge success of the Taurus...car campanies are a little more timid these days.
You're right - real innovation in the car game is an expensive and risky business. But you have to have the guts, and to be fair, a fat checkbook, to see a payoff - Toyota decided to dive off the deep end with hybrids, and they are going to own the market. They could afford to be wrong, of course, but I don't see the huge risk of a company like Mazda with the M5. Sometimes I think the marketeers live in some kind of parallel universe that barely intersects with the real world...