Scion tC

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Comments

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,243
    As far as I can tell, the tC has been way under the radar of "mainstream" America. For the majority of the population not frequenting these message boards, there has been very little publicity. A few small pieces in the auto mags, but no big advertising that I have noticed.

    Real good chance that once they are on the ground and start getting mentioned, sales could pick up protty quick.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • tahlequahtahlequah Member Posts: 54
    So....I put down a deposit before seeing a tc. I've been waiting for my order to arrive. In the meantime, the dealer called today to say they had a model finally on the lot (not mine, but another one). I took it for a test drive.

    FAR OUT! It's heavy, the shift is smooth (I found the clutch a little stiff but I think that's more me than the car). The 6'4" dealer was in the back seat with room to spare. It's bigger in person than the pictures make it look. The door width coupled with the space the seats can give when pushed forward make it SO easy to get in and out of the back, it's remarkable. It's not all what I expected -but that's not a slam, that's a really wonderful surprise. I like it even better than the pix! It rides like a charm. All in all I'd say this is the smartest buy I've ever made in a car.

    But probably the funniest part was meeting a cop at a four way stop. I thought he was gonna break his neck looking at the car as he drove past! Ordinarily I might be paranoid about that sort of behavior, then I realized what he was really looking at!!!!
  • k74sxtk74sxt Member Posts: 1
    Here is the first (and only) tC available on getauto.com. As of the time of this post, none are available on EBay yet (note: all Scions are listed under Toyota as "Other Models").

    http://www1.getauto.com/cardetail.html?vin=JTKDE177250002909
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,243
    good thing it looks nice in that color, since it is the one that I ordered!

    I guess the boat is working it's way north. Supposed to hit port (Newark, NJ) on the 26th. Dealer hopes to have it to me (about 75 miles south of the port) by the end of the month, meaning the middle of next week.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • 307web307web Member Posts: 1,033
    I haven't seen one yet, but it seems like it should do well. The biggest negative I see is poor gas mileage for a small car. A V6 Malibu get's much better mielage. 22/29 to 23/30 is pretty poor for a new car of this size with a 4 cylinder engine. This fuel economy is in the same leage as a Buick LeSabre.
    I'd also like to see how the crash test results come out.
    The styling and (base) pricing are good, so I think many people will ignore the fuel economy issue for now.
  • mackabeemackabee Member Posts: 4,709
    So a Camry with the same engine gets 23/32 EPA rating. What's the big deal? Most Toyotas get better gas mileage than the EPA rating. Both my Camrys usally average 35 mpg city/hwy combined. I imagine the tC will probably do the same.
                   : )
                  Mackabee
  • 307web307web Member Posts: 1,033
    While there might be a possibility of squeezing 35MPG out of a Camry on a long road trip, it seems unlikely that a Camry could "average" 35 MPG in normal around town mixed city/highway driving.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    I'm not real sure why a larger/heavier car (Camry) with the SAME engine gets better mileage? What'sup wit dat?
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,243
    It mostly has to do with the gearing. THe Acura TSX has the same issue when compared to an Accord for example (although it's not exactly the same engine).

    I assume the tC was geared a little shorter, for better performance, so it might be revving a little higher on the highway than the Camry. As long as it isn't too much higher, should be OK.

    The EPA tests are kinda goofy anyway. Some cars do better than they will in the real world, and some do worse. I think it is reasonable to assume that the tC (at least the manual) will do better. I'm hoping for about 25 around town mixed use, and low 30's on the highway, which will be fine on regular gas, given the expected performance level.

    If you want better mileage, get a Corolla. You just won't get 160+ HP with it.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • tahlequahtahlequah Member Posts: 54
    An '05 Corolla XRS will bring 170hp. You'll need the super charger to top that. Wonder what that will do for the Corolla milage?

    I still haven't seen mpg for an automatic tc printed anywhere. The brochure from the dealer still says TBD.
  • tahlequahtahlequah Member Posts: 54
    My bad - the website quotes:

    Scion tC:

    Mileage Estimates (MPG City / Highway)
    Manual 22/29
    Automatic 23/30

    Corolla XRS:

    Mileage Estimates (mpg city/highway)
    Manual 25/32
    Auto n/a on XRS
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,243
    It's hard to tell what MPG you would get from each car, real world, since they have radically different natures. You can loaf around in the tC (big engine/plenty of torque) but need to wail on the XRS to get anything out of it.

    But, as soon as someone here finally gets one onto the road, we will find out. I'll even volunteer to take a road trip to test it out.

    And, I think the XRS requires premium, so $/MPG will be higher. It almost seems that regular is a luxury these days on any car with sporting pretenses.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • benevolence6gcbenevolence6gc Member Posts: 19
    I'd hate to see the mpg of a tc with a supercharger.... whew! plus it has to use premium fuel, but n/a I think the gas mileage is a little below you would expect but not too bad, especially for the price of the car and everything you get.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    The Tacoma with supercharger obtains the same mpg as a Tacoma without a supercharger, perhaps the tC will be the same. I'm sure the customers purchasing a supercharger are not motivated by mpg.
  • tahlequahtahlequah Member Posts: 54
    Torque! That's why the mpg is a bit lower for the tc vs. Camry. But aren't we only talking about 1 mpg loss, give or take? That doesn't seem that bad to me considering. Certainly the 8mpg (+/-) loss for the Corolla XRS vs. a regular Corolla seems of more concern.

    But, as stickguy said, folks buying these cars probably aren't concerned with mpg anyway - I know I wasn't. After all, they're sport(y) cars! If I want great mpg from a gas engine, I'd stick with a Corolla. I think the tc delivers very decent mpg plus great looks, unbeatable dependability (based on Toyota's legacy), and all the speed I need to get out from underneath the suv clogged roads!
  • haloclinehalocline Member Posts: 20
    I saw a billboard advertising the tC on the Mass Pike inbound to Boston (just before the Newton tolls). First ad I've seen for this car, and on billboards that have generally been monopolized by Mazda recently.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,243
    I hope this catches on quickly, and becomes impossible to find (after I have mine home of course). If nothing else, it should help resale value down the road!

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • scootertrashscootertrash Member Posts: 698
    Sunday, on Discovery Channel, it seemed like there was a tC commercial every 10 minutes
  • 307web307web Member Posts: 1,033
    It's bad. It's not as if it is THAT FAST to justify poor mileage. It's just a tepid 4 cylinder Camry engine. It's not a sports car.
    If it was really quick and powerful, then the mileage could be justified.
  • tahlequahtahlequah Member Posts: 54
    It's not a "sports" car per se but it's not an "economy" car either. If a 4cyl Camry gets 23/33 (+/-), how can the loss of a mile or two be "bad" considering the torque is higher and the car is heavy?
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,243
    we really need to see real world results. Some cars are set up to do better on the test, but on the road do worse, and others do better than the tests predict.

    I seem to recall posts on the TSX threads that people were getting better than the EPA numbers on the stick model for instance.

    Anyway, mid 20s overall around town, and low 30ish highway for a 5 speed seems plausible, and certainly reasonable on regular gas.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,243
    Anyone (Mack?) know what the gearing on the manual tranny is? All this talk of MPG makes me wonder how buzzy it will be. Real curious to know what it will turn @60 in 5th.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    The mileage drop vs. the Camry isn't "bad", just curious.

    Torque is higher? Yes. The Camry LE 4-cyl is rated at 162 ftlbs @ 4000rpm. The Scion Tc is rated at 163 ftlbs @ 4200rpm.

    1 ft lb. BFD.

    Heavy? Yes, compared to other 2-dr coupes. But, again, the curious comparison is to the 4-cyl Camry. The Camry tips the scales at 3086 lbs and the Scion Tc at 2905 lbs.

    The Camry is 181 lbs heavier with 1 (that's ONE) ft-lb less torque. I don't think 'torque' is the reason the Scion is rated a couple of mpg down from the Camry.

    I'm betting the Camry mileage is either slightly overrated (need to get their bread'n'butter car over the magic 30 mpg mark) or the Scion mileage is slightly underrated. Or both.
  • hc72hc72 Member Posts: 20
    A vehicle mileage is determined by its drive train efficiency, coefficient of drag, weight, and tire rolling resistance.

    Given that Camry and Tc shares the same drive train, the engine is a negligible factor, regardless of the gearing (this only matters for force needed for acceleration)

    Tc is lighter than Camry which results in good city (stop & go) mileage. However, the highway (cruising) mileage is ~10% worse. Since there is not acceleration/deceleration, the vehicle weight is not a factor here.

    Therefore, the main culprit for lower mileage in tc is its coefficient of drag (CD) and tire resistance. Tire resistance is obvious given that toyota put in IS300 high performance grip tires. As far as CD goes, Toyota might have reduced the vehicle development cycle down to 13 months with some sacrifice to the vehicle aerodynamics.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    Nice try.

    Except that the Tc is rated 2 mpg less than the Camry (22 vs. 24, ~10%) in the city (stop & go), yet it is nearly 200 lbs lighter. You would think that the lighter car would have an advantage in stop and go driving. And aero doesn't have much impact on the EPA's city test.

    And highway rolling resistance is definitely also a function of vehicle weight. You can see this by rolling an empty wheelbarrow and then a loaded wheelbarrow. According to your logic, since the tire is the same, they should both be equally easy to push on a level surface. The last time I was shlepping concrete around, I can tell you that adding weight definitely increases rolling resistance.

    Engine is negligible regardless of gearing??? Really?? If I drive all day long in 5th on the highway in my GTS, I'm fairly certain I will get worse mileage than if I would upshift into 6th. I'm not sure how you can say since they both have the same drivetrain, the gearing won't have any effect on mileage.

    I'll stick to my hypothesis; the Camry is overrated on mileage, the Tc is underrated, and/or the Tc has a lower final drive (higher numerically).
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,243
    I forgot about the tires. They can make 5-10% difference by themselves, and the tC has relatively wide tires (probably bigger than the 4 cyl Camry), and a much more aggresive/grippy tread. That could account for 2 mpg, the rest may be gearing.

    Again, we will soon see in the real world, but I am curious to see a comparison of gearing. I'm guessing the Camry is ~2400 rpm @60, and the tC might be 2700 or so?

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • hal9000hal9000 Member Posts: 7
    bought my tC today..pick it up Friday..wondering if anybody else in the North East has one yet..i live in upstate NY..dealer said its the only one he knows of in NY so far..but not sure this is true..let me know if you have one and live in NY/NJ/PA etc...
  • tahlequahtahlequah Member Posts: 54
    I like your hypothesis rorr, although hc72's use of logic is very impressive! Never the less, "overrated/underrated" suits and it's much easier to explain to others.

    Interesting note about the tires - their impact never occurred to me.

    stickguy, seems I read last night that the tc comes in at 2600 rpm. But, I could be wrong. I saw it compared to three other cars, all of which escape me at this moment.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,243
    2600 @60 is a little higher than I prefer (but certainly better than my Miata which is doing a tick over 3000). 2200-2400 depending on the size/output of the engine is nice and relaxed.

    I bet the Camry is in that range, which probably accounts for a chunk of the lost MPG.

    But, it should have great pick-up at highway speeds without downshifting.

    If I did my math right, 70 will be about 3000 -3050, so not too bad. 75 at 3200ish.

    Actually, those numbers are just about spot on to my Maxima.

    So, geared for performance more so than quiet highway cruising. Guess thats to be expected.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,243
    I was told that mine was supposed to hit port (Newark NJ) on the 26th. Either the one in NY came in elsewhere (would have had to be an earlier stop) or mine came in earlier than expected. I have a call into the dealer to see whats the status.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • d_blockd_block Member Posts: 4
    I called a NJ dealer yesterday and the Saleperson told me that their demo car was coming in for another 2 weeks and their fleet wasnt coming in for another month. Since this dealership is less than 15 miles away from port newark..what is up with the delay? I want to drive a tc out of the lot before summer is over :)
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    I'm going to take a look in a couple hours.
  • hc72hc72 Member Posts: 20
    I did not want to go to details but here it is detail analysis. I spend 6 years in a national solar car racing team, vehicle efficiency is what we breath every day.

    The vehicle efficiency is determined by efficiency of the drive train and total resistance encountered by the vehicle as it travels.

    Since drive train is very similar between Camry and tc, we can assume that its effect is negligible and focus on resistant forces (energy wasted to move the car)

    Resistant Forces in order of importance are
    1) Air Reistance
    2) Rolling resistance tire to ground
    3) Rolling resistance wheel bearings
    4) Vehicle Innertia (only for stop & go)

    1) Air resistance from car moving through air is:
    0.5 * Coefficient of drag* Frontal area * air density* (vehicle speed + wind speed)^2

    Since the air density and the test speed are the same, only CD and frontal area matters. tc is a smaller and lower car, therefore, its frontal area is smaller. Poor CD is the main cause for loss efficiency.

    2) Rolling Resistance
    cos(road slope)* car weight* tire rolling resistance

    Since road slope is same. Tc weight less, therefore, it must have a tire with higher rolling resistance.

    3) Rolling Resistance (bearing)
    No information available on the bearing. I am going to assume that same bearing is used in Camry and tc

    4) Inertia Resistance
    car mass * vehicle acceleration

    Since tc is lower in weight, its inertia resistance is lower.

    Based on above information. This explain why Tc is comparable to Camry in city (stop & go). tc has less inertia resistance but higher air &rolling resistances.

    But as vehicle cruises at constant speed, there is little acceleration/deceleration (inertia reistance is negligible). Air and rolling resistance becomes the dominat factors.
  • hc72hc72 Member Posts: 20
    But honestly, forget the math. I am not buying it for the efficiency or for being practical. Those 17" alloy wheels, dual moon roof, and cool design are what I am looking for.

    I put down the deposit 2 weeks ago for a Super White tc. Not sure when I will get one shipped.
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    ...look at the gearing in each car! If you want to compare cars with the same drivetrain and the same [relatively] weight, the first place to start is the gearing. You guys are working WAY too hard on this question of where the 2 mpg went. A 10% difference in final drive would account for virtually all of it. Have you looked at those numbers? Probably hard to do, since Toyota is often remiss on publishing that kind of tech data...anyway, that's where my betting is, along with the tire differences. My guess is that the Scion is geared a bit shorter to give it more punch vs the Camry. Anyone got the gear and final drive ratios for the two cars??
  • d_blockd_block Member Posts: 4
    gee35coupe,

    where is your local dealership?
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    6 years on national solar car racing team, huh?

    Perhaps you could use your expertise to add solar cells to the panorama roof to power the AC system, taking a load off the engine, and give us back our missing 10% gas mileage.

    8^)
  • mackabeemackabee Member Posts: 4,709
    Well I'm sorry to disappoint you but both our Camrys consistently get 35mpg on the highway/city. But it seems to me that no matter what US tC supporters say we won't please you, AND that's ok too. I'm here to talk about the tC not to put it down. My son's will be here tomorrow, mine mid July.
                         : )
                         Mackabee
  • jvanderhauserjvanderhauser Member Posts: 4
    except...
    you make an incorrect assumption. you assume because other frictional losses must be the same, it must be aerodynamic differences.
    frictional losses due to increased rpm's of the motor (you remember from physics class, how beyond the initial friction being higher from standstill, it increases with speed). so, the increased ratio for the final drive gears being a likelihood, as sports type cars or those with really weak motors are frequently equipped with to increase torque to the wheels at expense of engine rpm. The increased rpm and friction usually reduce mpg. yes, we are ignoring pumping efficiencies here too. and combustion chamber and swirl and camshaft / port velocities differing at the different rpms. so reducing engine rpms to reduce friction could actually reduce milage in real world tests instead of increase it in very rare cases. e.g. if the camshaft overlap caused a significant decrease in compression during the combustion phase due to reversion past the valves. and we know how lower compression reduces combustion efficiency, even tho the mechanical loss of the increased compression and adiabatic heating are working against us there. yes, we could speak of adiabatic heating and thermal losses too. but that would probably be beyond the scope here. or of spark and fuel timing maps being usually different per vehicle application. again to lean towards the stociametic values of 14 something to one for theoretical maximum milage (tho in practice due to incomplete combustion actual values of 15 to 1 frequently yield more mpg). or was it tuned for more power towards the 12 to one gas vapor to air ratio?
    of course reducing the resistance across the potentiometer on the dash will draw more amps requireing more power from the alternator and will put a corresponding drag on the motor, aka turning up the volume on the stereo. but again we can assume that will be only 1/10s of mpgs at the worst... did you consider if they were driving with the windows up or down : )
  • tahlequahtahlequah Member Posts: 54
    I heard a rumor that tc stands for either "The Celica" or "Toyota Celica". Does anyone know if this is true? If it's not true, any idea what tc stands for, if anything?
  • stevenq99stevenq99 Member Posts: 36
    Any one notice how metallic the paint looks? The dealer had 1 grey auto with airbags and it was sold.
  • tuffyleungtuffyleung Member Posts: 19
    Three of my local dealers have the tc. Broadway toyota ( Super White AUTO), Thomason toyota (Black AUTO), and Beaverton Toyota (2 Flint Mica AUTO). I have driven all on the last Sunday, The first one arrived was the Black AUTO on the 18th (last Friday). The Super white is nicely matched with the inside color and the outside look, but it gets dirty too easily and obvious. Flint Mica brings a cool feel no matter you view it from close or long distance, a racing feel as well. The Black one is too simple, no suprise. So far, the best color is the Flint Mica. The ride, performance, quality and visibility of the car are all nice, especially the engine; the room of the car is bigger than I expected earlier. The Flint Mica one in Beverton Toyota now is ready to be bought home, no need to wait for it, as I was told after my test drive.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    I saw one yesterday at Cobb County Toyota. The had a blue one. I liked it but not enough to part with my SI. Maybe in couple years.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,243
    glad you likes the flint mica, since thats what I have on order. I prefer the classy, understated look (more in keeping with my advancing age), as opposed to a flashy boy racer color.

    MIne is supposed to be in port (Newark) today or tomorrow. Either your salesman didn't knwo what he was talking about, was blowing smoke, or they aren't getting one from the first allocation as a demo.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • raven70raven70 Member Posts: 3
    I have been waiting impatiently since this whole thing started at the Detroit Auto Show. I spoke to a customer service rep yesterday at Scion and the car will be available 1st week in July, BUT and I mean BUT... The wait for me will continue for 5 more months, because accesories will not all be available. The fog lights are to come out in November, the ground effects will also be in November along with (rumored)estimated price of $4000 for the S/C. In a way I think it's good to wait, so that everyone that has it early can offer their pros and cons on the TC, before I purchase the car.
  • muffin_manmuffin_man Member Posts: 865
    I'm happy to hear that. I think it's time for an Si update in the other forum.
  • trini2debonetrini2debone Member Posts: 4
    I went to my local dealer in Buffalo today, but they haven't gotten their tC in yet. The salesman told me within a few days, but the one they have coming is already sold anyway. This is frustrating, I just want to see what the car looks like in person before I decide on anything.
  • j42j42 Member Posts: 13
    i've been following this post for some time now. i decided about a month ago to put a deposit down. and i finally picked mine up today, first tc off the lot from my dealer. i got the flint mica, which is perfect (azure pearl looks pretty nice too, thats the only other one they had in). i'll do a full review in a couple of days. but so far, here is my impression starting with the interior -
    front seats very comfortable with plenty of adjustments to get comfortable. even with front seats all the way back, theres plenty of leg room in the back seat. now, for those worried about head room that has been a discussion before. front seats have enough adjustments so a 6' person will be comfortable. but there isn't much head room in the back (my head had about an inch or two), or if you raise the seat height up in the front. for reference, i'm 5'10". the rest of the interior is really nice and surprisingly spacious. love the sunroof, love it (although i can see how a full glass roof might be a little much). stereo has been a concern for some. it actually sounds pretty good. i don't really like the presets that come with it, for instance the ssp for an xB sounded a little better than for the tc, go figure. and i'm trying to figure out what kind of speakers they use to decide if an upgrade is necessary (probably would help, bass reproduction can get distorted at higher volumes). really now, i'm rambling so on to the exterior.

    compact (not small), smooth, athletic, enough said.

    and finally, the most important part, the driving. clutch is kind of long, but i'm still feeling it out. shifting is really easy and smooth, and power is immediate. the guys at the dealer estimated 0-60 in 7. flat. so under 8 should be easy with a manual. its really easy to sail past the speed limit. at low rpm, engine noise is nearly non existant. and at higher rpm, it really isn't that loud either. haven't taken it on the highway yet though. in turns, its pretty stable, and i felt like i could push it a lot harder. still a lot to explore and figure out.

    so thats an early impression on my new tc. i absolutely love it. and for those who are curious about the s/c, it should be closer to $3000 than 4, from what they said. so i'll do a full review soon, and hope what i said helps people make a decision.
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