Buying Tips - How Do I Get the Best Deal?

mikefm58

Should I be more upfront about it?

I've never understood the strategy of holding back information about financing or in some deals, a trade in. To me, that just delays things and in the end doesn't change the deal.

The dealers in my area are sleezy - especially the ones closest to me

Same here in central Florida, home of the $699 dealer fee. I seriously doubt I'll ever own a Nissan simply because of the slime balls I've run in to at those dealers. I usually start the process with emails and then start with the dealers that were the most upfront and professional with me.

ellusionz21

I'm just confused at how people get prices under invoice? First off, how to find out what the invoice is... then how to talk them out of their profit? Is this possible or are these people crazy? Thanks for your help. I'm looking to buy a Honda Civic EX if I can get the price down enough... around 17k would be perfect, but I have a feeling I'm going to have to get an LX around that price.

oldfarmer50

"...confused at how people get prices under invoice?..."

Usually below invoice prices are obtained on models that the dealer wants to get rid of or that have large rebates (same thing really). Lets say your dealer has 100 Civics and 90 of them are EX models. He realizes that he ordered too many EXs and therefore tells the salesman to give a better price on those to move them off the lot. The only way to know is look around the car lot and make a below invoice offer.

"...how to find out what the invoice is..."

Simple answer is to look it up here on Edmunds under "new cars". Just be sure to factor in things such as "holdback", "advertising fees", "marketing support" and "doc fees" which can confuse the issue.

Bottom line is, you can't tell what price a dealer will sell the car for unless you ask. If the price is too high go to another dealer or raise your offer.

Good luck.

ellusionz21

Thanks! Do you think asking 17.5 to 18k OTD for a Honda Civic EX auto coupe will work? I have a car now so am able to wait them out to get off their selling high from C4C.

oldfarmer50

"...Do you think asking 17.5 to 18k OTD for a Honda Civic EX auto coupe will work?..."

Edmunds says for that car MSRP is $20105, Invoice is $18515 plus $710 delivery charge for total Invoice of $19225.

Also in my area there is $1000 in "market support" to the dealer which if you could get them to give that up would bring the price down to about $18,225

Honda also gives the dealer back about 2% of the invoice (holdback) for selling the car or about $400 which would bring the price down to $17825 which is as close to dealer cost as can be determined. You want to offer $17.5 to $18K plus you want them to pay tax, tile and licence (let's say $1000). You are asking them to take about a $1k loss on a popular car.

I don't see it happening but check Edmunds figures for your zip code. There may be additional incentives in your area. There is also a prices paid forum here which may give you some direction (take those price claims with a grain of salt).

jipster

Good advice oldfarmer. I might let you co-author my next book. :shades:

mikefm58

Good advice, but, and you knew there had to be a but, I've never heard of a dealer going in to the holdback.

oldfarmer50

"...never heard of a dealer going into the holdback..."

Me either. But maybe the OP will walk in 15 minutes before closing on the last day of December and the dealer will be one unit away from a monthly bonus, quarterly bonus, yearly bonus and unit bonus.

ellusionz21

Ok so I went over a few things and decided an LX would be better price wise and less for them to steal Thanks for all your help. As I said I'm in no rush so will try to see who will go as close to $16k or so.

And I just found that neat site, TrueCar, and it laid it out real nice the difference in the Actual Dealer Cost ($16,165), Average Paid ($17,017), Factory Invoice ($17,526), and Sticker Price ($18,765). I know TMV shows same stuff, but that graph helps show it off better. And even shows the monthly averages. Plus I like how it comes off over $1k cheaper :shades:

oldfarmer50

"...Thanks for all your help..."

No problem. When you do make a purchase come back and tell us the details.

ellusionz21

Ofcourse! Now I just have to decide between getting a 2009 or 2010... Wonder if when they start trying to get rida the '09s if I could push em even lower. Or just be happy with whatever lowest price I can get for the 2010 for the resell value later...

mikefm58

Plus I like how it comes off over $1k cheaper

By all means keep us posted how things go. Me thinks you're going to be sadly disappointed by some of the online guides. None are 100% accurate and many are simply all over the place. They are not a buyers bible, even Edmunds. Makes you wonder how they come up with the numbers.

A word of advice, just because a dealer won't give you the lowest online price you can find, don't take it personal and don't think he's a crook. That simply means the online guide you're using is off for your local area for the vehicle for that time of the year.

rocketbob

Does anyone know why Canadian dealer invoice prices are not freely available.
Several websites say for a fee they can give an invoice price but I question
the reliability of info that can't be verified.

It is bad enough we get ripped off on MSRP that bear no relation to currency
exchange rates but just about everything is out of wack ( for example: a 2010 equinox ships to San Diego for $745 US from the Cami Plant at Ingersoll,Ontario.
This has to be more than 3000 kilometres. The same vehicle shipped 5 kilometres
to the Chev dealer in Ingersol costs $1350 Canadian)

The veil of secrecy makes it difficult to fairly price a deal and i don't understand how
all the information on holdbacks, invoice price, rebates and dealer incentives is
available in the US and not in Canada even for the identical cars.

grandtotal

I don't know why the information is not freely available in Canada. I do know that the information that Armada Data Corporation supplies is mostly correct.

The whole freight thing is easily explained - the number we pay in Canada includes PDI as well as freight (unless you are Kia who like to charge twice for PDI). The PDI component is way too much, but that is another story.

tekkamaki

I have a 2007 Toyota Sienna being shipped to me this week, I hired the car concierge service featured in the tips and advice section (Authority Car Buying Service).

Here is what I told them I was looking for-
low miles 05 or better yet a newer Sienna- any color- CE or LE- certified preferred, Best possible deal for a long term owner- I keep my cars until I kill them.

I live near Seattle and I was finding lots of 04 and 05 cars in the $15k range with high miles and ones with low miles were selling for $18.5 and up, Most dealers were starting with a price above KBB retail.

Here is what they found us- 07 sienna CE- 40k miles -Toyota Certified with almost 5 years left on the certified warranty for $ 14,950 The car is in S. California and is being shipped to my doorstep for about $500. Authority negotiated low fees too- they totaled $63 for the doc prep fee and smog.

Overall I am quite pleased with how the transaction went, a bit of a challenge dealing with the paperwork of an interstate transaction (the dealership cannot seem to spell names correctly on the paperwork) but hey its a good deal.

According to NADA I'm paying clean trade- in-value for the car, which is about $3k below retail. Plus its a certified car with the Toyota warranty.

I really like the idea of having somebody on my team when negotiating a deal like this, these guys do all of the communication and negotiation with the dealership and they know how the car business works- I do not.

Anybody else out there try this?

snakeweasel

Anybody else out there try this?

I wouldn't try it. These people have to make money somehow and that money is included in the cost of the car. Buying a car isn't rocket surgery and most people with a minimal amount of research can negotiate a good deal that would make this service pretty much useless.

deltheking

That is a very good price for a certified 07 Sienna with 40 k miles. and yes, if these services are reliable then they are a pretty good deal . Saves you all the time and hassle. I dont think you could get a much lower price than the one you got. :shades:

These services are more useful for buying used cars,I feel. For new cars,everyone knows the invoice,MSRP,rebates etc but for used cars it is different.

So I think this is a good deal-because the car you want may not be available locally and these folks can search nationwide and negotiate for you. I would definitely go for it. !! :P

tekkamaki

Saving time and hassle was a life saver, Ive got 2 young kids at home I take care and work full time.

I see your point about these services being better at finding deals on used cars. I would say that it is also worth the fee if you want something pretty rare or very specific (color model) and are having trouble finding it for the right price.

After using the service I would use it for a new car under most circumstances, The way fees are negotiated out of the deal will save much of the concierge fee, for my family avoiding the BS and lies at the dealership it worth at least $200.

My last new car was a lost leader - a new 02 Subaru Legacy for $16,500. The dealer claimed it had been sold when we showed up. We started checking vin #'s for a match in the sales lot. We finally found the car hidden behind the building in a fenced lot. They legally had to sell it to us for that price- they were not happy that we found it on their lot. No wonder folks like me don't trust the car salesman.

jipster

My last new car was a lost leader - a new 02 Subaru Legacy for $16,500. The dealer claimed it had been sold when we showed up. We started checking vin #'s for a match in the sales lot. We finally found the car hidden behind the building in a fenced lot. They legally had to sell it to us for that price- they were not happy that we found it on their lot. No wonder folks like me don't trust the car salesman.

LOL. I've heard the "it's been sold" excuse several times myself (called when first ad came out in paper, before dealership opened). Didn't think they were actually hiding the cars in the bushes. I do think the vast majority of the time the car isn't on the lot when that first ad comes out. Nothing illegal, just a lot of smoke and mirrors. Never heard a logical explanation from the salespeople here about why this happens so often.

snakeweasel

Never heard a logical explanation from the salespeople here about why this happens so often.

I had a friend walk into a Ford dealership a few years back on, i believe, a Wednesday.He was looking for a stripped down Focus with a manual tranny. It just so happened that they were taking delivery of one that very same day that was supposed to be the car promoted in that Fridays ad at the real low price. He bought it that day, so two days before the ad came out he bought the car. Nothing illegal or wrong there, just timing.

jipster

so two days before the ad came out he bought the car

The dealership should have cancelled the ad. They probably ran it for 2 months like my dealership did. Like I said, smoke and mirrors. First you see it... then you don't. :shades:

snakeweasel

Those types of ads are usually printed up in advanced and placed in the papers when the paper is printed. Very hard to cancel the ad, especially if you are having a weekend long sales event.

tekkamaki

The root of the problem is that lost leaders work. I would guess that it is pretty hard attract customers into a dealership, this is a sure fire way to get car buying customers too look at your inventory.

I hear that balloons work amazingly well too.

snakeweasel

Actually its not a loss leader, loss leaders are items expected to be sold at a loss in order to bring in customers who will buy multiple items along with that loss leader. An example is a grocery store with a sale on hot dogs. They sell the hot dogs at a loss with the expectation that you will also buy the buns, chips, drinks and other things for that back yard party.

I think the term you are looking for is "bait".

michaellno

I think the term you are looking for is "bait".

Which implies "and switch" ... when the ad car is sold, the dealership really has no choice but to attempt to place the customer into a higher priced car.

Back in a previous wife-time, we totaled our '91 Mazda Protege and needed to purchase a replacement. Wife wanted a '92 Accord LX, automatic, navy blue only.

As we lived in SoCal at the time, the Friday LA Times was filled with screamer deals from the various LA Honda dealers. Saw an ad for an LX for a great price. Called the dealer to ask about the transmission and color - yep, auto and navy blue!

We drove to the dealer - about 30 miles away - that afternoon and bought it ... which meant that anybody who wanted to buy that ad car on Saturday or Sunday was out of luck.

The ad cars do exist, but you've got to want exactly what is being offered.

Here in Denver, some dealers run ads that state "x at this price", where x can be any number .. I'm guessing that the equipment on these ad cars are identical, differing only in color.

british_rover

I guess you have never bought advertising in a newspaper before. When we run an ad for say Thursday through Sunday it works like this.

Monday we tel the ad guy what we want they work up a proof and fax it over either that day or more likely Tuesday morning. We look it over Tuesday make any necessary changes and send it back to them that afternoon/evening. They send back a final proof that night or early morning and we have till either 10:00 am or 11:00 am depending on the paper to make final changes. After that the ad is set in stone and cannot be changed. If someone comes in wed night to buy one of the cars in the ad then there is nothing we can do.

This is the lead time for dailys the lead time for weeklys is even longer.

Kirstie_H

And, there's nothing illegal or deceptive about it, unless at the time the ad is placed, the car is not in stock (or anticipated to be in stock by the date that the ad runs). Jipster, they aren't permitted to continue to run an ad for 2 months after the car is sold!

tekkamaki

Its only deceptive when the dealership hides the car in the back lot so you don't find it, and claims that it has already sold when it has not.

jipster

After that the ad is set in stone and cannot be changed.

The Toyota Sienna CE (had a model number) I saw advertised was in the paper a couple months. This was in 2004 when this particular minivan was very popular. I would think if a dealership sold a loss leader car, they could contact the newspaper and have "sold" in red lettering stamped over that particular car... as a courtesy to their customers. Seems our modern technology could handle something like that, I've seen it done before. The dealership you are working at sounds reputable, others I would questiion after personal experience and reading other posts.

jipster

Its only deceptive when the dealership hides the car in the back lot so you don't find it, and claims that it has already sold when it has not.

I'm not a lawyer, but this sounds illegal to me. :sick:

ryank3

I was wondering if I would have any leverage in negotiating on a price on a 2010 vehicle if the 2011 models are expected to come out this July. However, out of necessity, my wife and I need to get another vehicle before the new models come out (beginning of June). Thanks.

55396

You may be a little early, but some 11 vehicles may be out there already. Other than that, it is probably dependent upon dealer or company inventory or promotions. Isn't there something on Edmunds telling what inventory levels are?

We buy rental or lease returns and have had excellent luck with them. And if not, they're still under warranty. The big hit off the top has already been taken by someone else, so what's not to like?

biancar

Look on truecar.com to get an idea of what the model you're interested in is selling for. There are incentives on a lot of things right now, so you should be able to get a good deal.

asr515

I'm looking to purchase a 2-3 year old SUV (not sure which one yet). There are listings by dealers for various SUVs where the purchase price is already lower than the edmunds.com Dealer Retail price. I know there is still room for negotiating but, how do I estimate how much room there ACTUALLY is for negotiating? I want to make a fair offer but still want the elusive "great deal"!

jipster

Retail? Nobody in these parts pays retail. Read about 5,000 posts in this discussion for a good understanding on negotiation and aquiring a good price. The Jip (Cliff) Note version is to start negotiations around Edmunds trade in value, with the goal of not paying over private party sale. There is extrremely high mark up in dealership used cars, so do some research and you'll get a good price.

plekto

A few basic questions:

- What's your budget?
- How many people does it have to seat?
- Why do you want/need a SUV specifically?
- Which brands brands (if any) do you dislike?
- Is MPG more important or power(ie - towing or just commuting?)

asr515

I've narrowed my search down to an Audi Q7 (probably '07) 3.6 Premium although the 4.2 would be great if I could get a deal. I don't want to pay more than $31k. Audi has some great financing rates at .9% for certified pre-owned. Edmund trade-in values versus private party values are between $28k-33k for a vehicle with about 30k-35k miles. I'd almost rather go buy new since it isn't such a guessing game!!

qbrozen

There really isn't much guessing. You find out what the trade-in value is and work up from there.

For a 3.6 premium with 35k miles, trade-in is roughly $25k. That's without getting into any special adds or deducts, mind you, like Nav, moonroof, S-line pack, or 3rd row. So you add $2500-$3k to that PLUS the cost of CPO, which is unfamiliar to me on Audis. But, realistically, $29k should be doable.

Forget the 4.2. That is $29k trade.

micosilver

With preowned cars - all that matters is current market for the specific model in your specific region. Check Autotrader, and find the car you want, then find the cheapest comparable car available for sale. That should be your target. If there is only one car available - you might not have a lot of leverage to negotiate. Used cars are not a commodity like new cars, there is no used cars factory. A dealer will try to get all the money for the car for a month, then they will lower the price until the sell it, so you can wait, but you take the risk that someone else will step up, and then you will have nothing.

asr515

That's helpful. It sounds like I have a better chance at getting a good deal with a car that has been on the lot for at least a month. These cars aren't rare so I'm not concerned if I miss out on one, I'll just move on to the next.

deltheking

Just make sure, if you are getting an Audi or a VW -- to get their ext war.. As salesfolks here tell often -these brands have numerous electrical issues that can get very expensive. :shades:
Just curious--Any reason why you decided on the Audi? What was your selection criteria and requirement?

jipster

It sounds like I have a better chance at getting a good deal with a car that has been on the lot for at least a month. These cars aren't rare so I'm not concerned if I miss out on one, I'll just move on to the next.

That's exactly the attitude you need to have during negotiation. If you're not happy with the deal walk. You can always come back. More than likely the salesman will stop you and say he'll go check with the manager. Have a price that is the most you're willing to pay and don't go over it. Don't forget about dealership doc. fees and other add-ons fees. I wouldn't pay for any add-ons you don't want. Add about $100 for doc. fee.

Autotrader is all about asking price, not selling price. So, use it as a tool to determine how much you want to pay, but not as a guide. I'd stick with N.A,D.A, Kelly Bluebook and Edmunds to determine the cars trade-in value, as qbrozen and myself pointed out earlier. Start there, which will still be more than they paid for the car, let them bump you once or twice to mid trade in value, but no higher than private party. If they want too much, tell them you'll think about it and walk. You can check out other lots or consider raising your offer.

asr515

Funny you should ask. I've now decided to look at an '08 ML350 or '07 GL450. I like the look of the Audi but I didn't like Edmunds negative comments (weak engines even with 4.2 V8, etc.) Criteria? I like the look of it and it has a decent engine (need a little oomph). I don't need a monster SUV with 3rd row, etc. but I don't want one of those little mini-SUV's that can fit down a European city street! That's basically it, other than making sure Edmunds didn't say it was a complete POS. I have an Envoy Denali currently and it's actually a decent truck but "truck" being the operative word. I'm looking for more of a "car" feel this time.

PS -- My other "problem" ...I HATE going INTO the dealership! HATE it! I'd rather have the deal done over the phone, email, whatever than waste my time playing games. I bought a C300 (new) two years ago. Not only did I get a great deal, I didn't walk into the dealership until I was ready to sign the papers and pick up the car. I guess that's my "hang-up" with this used car process. :P

asr515

Thanks for the advice. I need to remember not to pay so much attention the asking price. Some of these markups are ridiculous -- $8k+ over Excellent trade-in values. Should I start negotiations with the "rough" trade-in value then work up to clean/excellent trade-in?

deltheking

MB have their own share of problems--more so,their SUV's especially the GL.The ML seems 07 and above seem to be OK . Yukon/Tahoes are called SUV's but boy they are just trucks with a roof!! LOL!! And I can assure you that any leap from a Yukon to a MB SUV is like entering a futuristic time machine! :shades:

I have an 06 Lexus GX and it`s a great vehicle with excellent fit and finish and reliability-- but since you dont want a truck platform -- I cant suggest it.. Obviously the Lexus RX will be too small for you. Are you only considering a luxury brand or even a mainstream brand? Limited choices in the luxury segment for big SUV's or Crossovers. Mostly they are mini SUV's as you say. Acura has an SUV -the MDX- which is derived from Honda Pilot and it`s a crossover ,not a truck platform. So ,that`s an option.

So,do you prefer quiet plush rides or do you like good handling,agile with a feel of the road drive and steering feel? These are 2 different types and have different choices. But if you venture into the mainstream market,much more choices available though. Just my opinion.. :P

deltheking

Just post what you are interested in and folks here can help you out. I buy my cars online on Ebay..I know--not everyone's cup of coffee-- but for me it has been great. I got all of my 3 cars including my Lexus GX online on Ebay sight unseen. again,not everyone is comfortable with that plus I have no trade ins and pay the whole amount with no financing. :shades:

But Ebay is also great if you just want to check out prices. These are much more realistic. Also if have Ebay account,you can check the actual sales price and transactions for cars that were sold. So you know what cars are selling for what price. Have a look on Ebay for a car you want to buy-- look at the asking and sold prices-- and you will have a very good idea. :P

asr515

Great tip deltheking! I'm a fellow Ebayer myself. I sold two of my cars on Ebay. I don't know why that didn't register in my head when I started this process! I have to admit I didn't know you could look at asking and sold prices on the Ended bids - love it! I'm not concerned with buying a site-unseen car especially since you can order an independant inspection....off to Ebay I go!

deltheking

Hey Asr,nice to see an Ebayer onboard!! :shades:
For the uninitiated buying cars online without seeing them can be intimidating,but once you get a feel and get used to it,it really is a breeze. I remember when I was looking for the Lexus GX-- I wanted a fully loades one with solver or beige exterior with beige interior and it`s easier to find it on Ebay. Many folks think - how can you buy a car online unseen? How do you know if seller is reliable or the car is in good shape?

The sellers on Ebay are registered sellers and they have sold hundreds and some of them even thousands and they have feedback. This feedback is by actual buyers who have paid by credit card or wire transfer and whose info is with Ebay. Not like a regular forum where anyone can register and post anything with the honorable exception of Edmunds!! LOL!

And now Ebay Motors has a free autocheck report on every car.Obviously,you have to do your research. get familiar with the site,check the forums,seller feedback and you should do great. A dealer who sells lots of cars online has a lot to lose by way of negative feedback. Again research is key. I would not buy a car from a new seller with no feedback ..

Also,a tip regarding getting an independent inspection. I would not get it done-b'cos if you get it done and it given a clear chit,then the buyer assumes all responsibility and Ebay cant help you in this regard.But if you didn't and the car was misrepresented or damaged or not working-- then seller has the responsibility and Ebay also has a money back guarantee and will work with the buyer. In the rare case that happens -if a car is misrepresented or faulty-- the sellers generally take back the car as they so not want to risk a negative feedback on 1 transaction that can ruin or tarnish their reputation or business. That`s why I dont get the inspection. But they have such great detailed descriptions of the car and it`s condition-- it`s tough to go wrong if you know how it works !! :shades:

55396

Create an advanced search on ebay and check Completed Listings, then see what they sold for. That's a price the market is willing to pay. Could be a bit lower than the bird in the hand for inspection price though, but may be an excellent target and a tool to negotiate with.

55396

I bought a windshield for my bike on ebay. Supposed to be large, but came as a box for large with a small WS inside. The guy was selling returns and had taken a couple of feedback hits. He said he had hired someone who didn't do their job. I filed a complaint and I asked ebay how it worked if I sent it back and he didn't refund. I believe they said they would take it out of his account. BUT, what if he had closed his account or there was nothing in it? Would ebay still cover it? I just decided to eat it. Sure enough, his account closed. Still have the damn thing. Anyone have experience with this?