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Buying Tips - How Do I Get the Best Deal?

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    stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,699
    well, unless you are dealing with one of the rare old-timer salesguys than can book his own deals, whatever you negotiate with the salesguy is going up to a manager for apporval anyway, so what is the big difference?

    I find the graphicguy plan, combined with my own versin of passive/aggressiveness, works. Know what you are will ing to go to (while getting what you consider a better than run of the mill deal), and I offer a little lower (to give them some negotiating room).

    Then, I basically let them negotiate against themselves. Actually works if you do it right.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

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    obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    A manager is one who pens his own deals usually for the "house", does not go on test drives (assigns a salesperson to do that) and does not have Assistant or Service before Manager on his card. The house deal from what I've seen ensures the salesperson a mini + tip.
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    fandiguyfandiguy Member Posts: 101
    If you know a manager, actually know them on a friendship level, you'll get the best deal possible. Don't come in with some scheme, or have an attitude, it'll get you nowhere. What's with everyone using out of date "salesman" terms. "Pen deals," "house," "mini+tip," did you guys watch a movie from the 80's about car sales or something. No wonder most people are so deffensive.
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    jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,251
    If you know a manager, actually know them on a friendship level, you'll get the best deal possible

    Maybe if you saved the guys life, married his ugly sister, and was a major suck up ... you may get the best deal possible. But, who has the time or incentive to do such a thing?
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
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    fandiguyfandiguy Member Posts: 101
    Anyone that im friends with always gets the best possible deal up front. It actually costs me money to do so sometimes. In the f&i office i get paid based on my dollar per car, so if i help out a few people and it lowers that average, i potentially lose out on money. When my sister leased her last car, i personally lost $800 out of my own pocket, because it dropped me a pay level.
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    nortsr1nortsr1 Member Posts: 1,060
    fandiguy....In what State are you working that the dealers only charge a $77.00 doc fee and no other dealer fees???? Please respond...I would like to know. I believe most dealers in the State of Maryland only charge a dealer fee of $99.00 or less..
    I live in Florida (the famous $599.00 dealer fee State)...however, everytime I have purchased a new vehicle, I have gotten up and walked until they agrreed to ADD $599.00 to my trade-in. Also, with the addendum add-on stickers (paint sealant, pinstripe, window etching, stainprook fabric application, etc., I have simply told the salesperson that I am not willing to see that addendum sticker added on to the slae price and they have all responded...'No problem".
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    68p5168p51 Member Posts: 2
    I just purchased a new vehicle for my wife a month ago and there was no doc or any other dealer fees. Total price was price I offered on vehicle less rebate plus ttl. I'm up in ND. :)
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    jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,251
    Anyone that im friends with always gets the best possible deal up front

    Would you mind defining that? The GM I dealt with thought 2% over invoice was the "friends" deal (Edmunds TMV showed it was just an average deal). I sure wouldn't expect a relative or dear friend to lose money on the deal, maybe let me buy it (car) at cost.... waive the dealers fee. At the same time though, buy a slow moving car at the right time, you can do better.

    If I had a good friend in F & I, I would think an extended warranty $50 over cost would be nice.
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
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    fandiguyfandiguy Member Posts: 101
    Pretty much every dealership in the midwest has low doc fees. We don't do "addendum selling."
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    fandiguyfandiguy Member Posts: 101
    Invoice minus all rebates is what my friends/family get. Also, i sell the products at $10 over cost, just so i can at least record it in my numbers and its not a "0." Sometimes it does cost me money, if i'm bordering on a pay level, but its not like i have 20 friends/family members buying cars every month so its no biggie. I like being able to help, and use the perks of my jobs.
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    kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 238,860
    Maximum doc fee in Ohio is capped at $250 by state law...

    Guess what every dealer charges, and has pre-printed on their sales contracts? :surprise:

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    fandiguyfandiguy Member Posts: 101
    Thats low compared to some places on here. I'm in iowa, we charge $95, as does every other dealership around that i'm aware of.
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    jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,251
    Thats low compared to some places on here. I'm in iowa, we charge $95, as does every other dealership

    I'll usually throw $75-$100 into the pot when I make an out the door offer, when buying a new car. Let the dealership divide it up however they want.
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
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    patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    In Virginia it is my understanding that the dealers can charge whatever they want as a doc fee, but they must charge everyone the same thing. I've seen fees ranging from $95 to $299 here in southeastern Virginia, and I surely have not seen them all.

    But it doesn't really matter, as you know. You just negotiate the OTD price you're willing to pay and let them allocate the amounts to any category they wish.
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    mattgg1mattgg1 Member Posts: 191
    "Invoice minus all rebates is what my friends/family get."

    fandiguy -

    As I recall, you work at a GM and Chrysler dealership. Invoice minus rebates on a Chrysler product is a BAD deal!

    Hell, I bought a Honda Accord for $1000 under invoice.
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    verdugoverdugo Member Posts: 2,286
    All three dealers I've dealt in Northern California (Sacramento) charged $55.
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    fandiguyfandiguy Member Posts: 101
    Thats a bad deal?? I guarantee you paid more than invoice, dealerships can use rebates that you don't even know are available to make it SEEM like you paid under invoice, trust me i know. Hondas are such hot products there would be no reason they'd sell it for UNDER invoice, unless they used rebates you didn't know about.

    Example; say a cars invoice is $18000 and the sticker price is $20000. There are $4000 in rebates. The dealer could say, "we're gonna sell you this for $16000!!!" You think, wow thats 2 grand under invoice, when in reality you're paying sticker for the car. What i would do is sell them the car at $18000 (invoice) then take off the $4000 rebates leaving it at $14000. See the difference.

    Like i said, you probably paid sticker price and had rebates you didn't even know were available, applied to it. If you paid attention, you'd know i used to work at a honda store and no one is selling a honda for $1000 under invoice, its impossible to do without using rebates.
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    kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 238,860
    California caps the doc fee at $55.. :)

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    fandiguyfandiguy Member Posts: 101
    If they cap it at $55, what are these $500 "dealer fees" people from cali have been talking about? We really do things differently in the midwest i guess, at my dealership anyway.
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    kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 238,860
    Don't think we've heard that from anyone in California. Do you have an example?

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    fandiguyfandiguy Member Posts: 101
    Nothing specific, i just recall reading something in these last 250 pages about a really high "dealer fee" from someone in the sacramento area. I could be mistaken.
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    mattgg1mattgg1 Member Posts: 191
    "I guarantee you paid more than invoice, dealerships can use rebates that you don't even know are available to make it SEEM like you paid under invoice, trust me i know. Hondas are such hot products there would be no reason they'd sell it for UNDER invoice, unless they used rebates you didn't know about."

    How exactly do you "guarantee" that I paid more than invoice? How would you possibly know this if you didn't have any of the specifics of my deal? Maybe your store is the exception, but it is not uncommon for dealers to sell under invoice, for a variety of reasons. Surely you know this.

    "Like i said, you probably paid sticker price and had rebates you didn't even know were available, applied to it. If you paid attention, you'd know i used to work at a honda store and no one is selling a honda for $1000 under invoice, its impossible to do without using rebates. "

    By "rebates I didn't know were available", you are actually referring to Dealer Cash, which is a more appropriate term in case you didn't know. You may also not know that Edmunds posts the rebates, incentives, dealer cash, and holdback numbers for all manufacturers. When I bought my car there was no dealer cash or incentives available. (FYI, my Accord was purchased new in 2006)

    I'd love for you to explain these mystical manufacturer rebates that are known only to F&I guys and don't show up on Edmunds.

    Also, you say it is "impossible" to by a Honda for under invoice without rebates. Maybe someone that actually sells Hondas can respond to this.

    Isell, has your store ever sold a new Honda for less than invoice when rebates weren't involved? Is it truly impossible to do so?
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    madmanmoomadmanmoo Member Posts: 2,039
    Just FYI, many times Edmunds does not report Dealer Cash. When I was selling Hondas, I would check to see and many times it was not reported. You can't always trust what you read on the internet. ;)

    Is it impossible to sell under invoice? No. I am not quite sure what he meant by that. When I was selling Nissans, I would see that they would dip underneath many times. Now, in all fairness, there is also money that I am not aware of. There are sometimes volume number bonuses that are also not available to the general public. So, be aware that many times there IS money that is not reported.


    Hope that helped.
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    fandiguyfandiguy Member Posts: 101
    How exactly do you "guarantee" that I paid more than invoice? How would you possibly know this if you didn't have any of the specifics of my deal? Maybe your store is the exception, but it is not uncommon for dealers to sell under invoice, for a variety of reasons. Surely you know this.

    I don't need specifics, you said you bought it for under invoice and i can tell you, thats probably not true. There was probably some money that was used to "show" you a number under invoice.

    By "rebates I didn't know were available", you are actually referring to Dealer Cash, which is a more appropriate term in case you didn't know. You may also not know that Edmunds posts the rebates, incentives, dealer cash, and holdback numbers for all manufacturers. When I bought my car there was no dealer cash or incentives available. (FYI, my Accord was purchased new in 2006)

    I'd love for you to explain these mystical manufacturer rebates that are known only to F&I guys and don't show up on Edmunds.


    Edmunds doesn't have access to everything related to automobiles, they compile information from many many different sources. There ARE regional incentives that differ from area to area. I was NOT referring to dealer cash, or "magic" incentives. The numbers Edmunds shows aren't the EXACT prices, and should not be looked at as so, they are a guide. Without going into specifics, there are several incentives available for buyers in my area, go 100 miles away and they're not available.

    If you read any of my posts, i actually was doing f&i for a honda store in 2006...so i probably have a little more insight into the situation than yourself, or a third party would.
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    fandiguyfandiguy Member Posts: 101
    Thank you MADMANMOO, its amazing how many people think what they read on the internet is 100%, without a doubt, factual.

    Anytime a dealership sells you a car under invoice, when no other incentives appear to be available, believe me there is money coming from somewhere to make up the difference. No customer gets THAT amazing of a deal, to where the dealer would go "sure, i'd love to lose money to sell you a car!!"
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    mattgg1mattgg1 Member Posts: 191
    "I don't need specifics, you said you bought it for under invoice and i can tell you, thats probably not true. There was probably some money that was used to "show" you a number under invoice."

    OK. So you went from "guaranteeing" that I did not buy for under invoice, because that is "impossible", to saying that it is "probably" not true and there was "probably" some other money there.

    With the softening of your stance, you admit that you do not know for sure what the deal was.

    In addition, just as a previous poster pointed out with an example from Nissan, he can't explain your claim that Hondas are not sold under invoice without rebates. I'm sure that other salesmen will state that it IS POSSIBLE to buy a Honda under invoice.
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    fandiguyfandiguy Member Posts: 101
    OK. So you went from "guaranteeing" that I did not buy for under invoice, because that is "impossible", to saying that it is "probably" not true and there was "probably" some other money there.

    HAHAHAHAHA, i figured since i provided enough facts against what you said, you'd make some sort of grammer related comment, lol.

    In addition, just as a previous poster pointed out with an example from Nissan, he can't explain your claim that Hondas are not sold under invoice without rebates. I'm sure that other salesmen will state that it IS POSSIBLE to buy a Honda under invoice.

    Did you actually read that whole post? That poster even admitted they didn't know whether or not "extra" money was being used in those instances. That was also the same poster that told you edmunds doesn't show ALL available incentives. Are you going to continue with this or would you like to stop now?
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    traindrivertraindriver Member Posts: 328
    fandiguy,
    Maybe I am wrong, but I believe that it has been stated before by at least one, maybe two Honda salesmen on these forums that Honda doesn't have volume bonuses or other super secret money. rebates yes, dealer cash yes, but anything else: no. Since you have done f&i at Honda you certainly should know. It doesn't make sense for a dealer to take a bona fide loss on a sale. I have always figured that they were using holdback to get below invoice, which I wouldn't consider a true bottom line loss.

    Edmunds seems to be slower about posting various incentives. "Automotive News" is another source to reference. So are you saying Honda does have "super secret" money?

    PS: welcome to the jungle
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    fandiguyfandiguy Member Posts: 101
    When i worked at the Honda store, at certain times throughout the year, they would have volume bonuses retroactive to the first unit sold. Sometimes it would be $500, other times it would be more. If a dealership is close to getting it, they may take a "short" deal because they know they're getting this money anyway. It can be passed on to the consumer but very rarely is. Don't concern yourself with this, because those programs aren't always active.

    Most managers only tell the salespeople what they need to know. These salespeople on here to know everything about everything are most likely very ill informed. In all my years and the couple different stores i've been at, salespeople were never told about most programs like that because they don't need to know. We always let them think they know everything, but only fill them in on what they need to know. Nothing worse than an entry-level employee who thinks they have all the answers and all the knowledge of managment. That's where salespeople who make bad promises come from.
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    traindrivertraindriver Member Posts: 328
    Thanks for the clarification in post 4980. I've never seen any public information on these volume based programs and doubt that I ever will. It does help to explain some of the deals that people post. (no, I don't believe everything I read on "prices paid" either.)

    What are you seeing as far as the credit mess in DC/Wall street? Do you anticipate any difficulty getting folks with at least decent credit getting approved? Have any of your regional banks/finance sources cut you off or otherwise restricted what they are buying at this point?

    Washington Mutual is gone. Jim Cramer on CNBC made a comment that he thought an Ohio bank was about to go under but wouldn't name who. (my uneducated guess: National City, maybe -- stock looks ugly; Key Bank and Huntington aren't looking much better) I don't know if any were big in auto finance; Key sounds familiar. Just wondered if this has trickled down to auto loans as well? You are in the midwest aren't you?

    Thanks.
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    Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,149
    Are you going to continue with this or would you like to stop now?

    How about this... *I* would like it to end now. In fact, I would like that SO much that if this discussion looks like it's becoming the next stop on the Derail-a-Topic 2008 World Tour, we'll simply start prohibiting posting by members who insist on taking us off-topic and out of the bounds of civility.

    As much fun as it was to waste my time this morning cleaning up the mess in the purchasing strategies aisle, sometimes it makes more sense to boot out the kids who are knocking all the ketchup bottles off the shelves than to continue following them around with a mop.

    No namecalling. No finger pointing. No insinuating either of the two. No hostility.

    Thank you.

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
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    mattgg1mattgg1 Member Posts: 191
    Fandiguy -

    "When i worked at the Honda store, at certain times throughout the year, they would have volume bonuses retroactive to the first unit sold. Sometimes it would be $500, other times it would be more."

    So other than these volume bonuses, are there any other secret "rebates" (that only F&I guys are aware of) that Honda gives to dealers? (other than dealer cash)

    "If a dealership is close to getting it, they may take a "short" deal because they know they're getting this money anyway. It can be passed on to the consumer but very rarely is."

    What do you consider a "short"?
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    mattgg1mattgg1 Member Posts: 191
    fandiguy -

    "Invoice minus all rebates is what my friends/family get..."

    So when you say invoice minus all rebates, do you also subtract the secret rebates that no one knows about?

    You mentioned that "dealerships can use rebates that you don't even know are available to make it SEEM like you paid under invoice, trust me i know."

    So do your family/friends get only the known rebates? Or do you make them AWARE of the secret rebates and subract them from the price of the car?
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    fandiguyfandiguy Member Posts: 101
    MATTGG1-in respect to the host, i'm not responding to any post about that topic.
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    fandiguyfandiguy Member Posts: 101
    What are you seeing as far as the credit mess in DC/Wall street? Do you anticipate any difficulty getting folks with at least decent credit getting approved? Have any of your regional banks/finance sources cut you off or otherwise restricted what they are buying at this point?

    Being in the midwest, things tend to hit us a little slower. Local credit unions haven't changed a bit, but most national ones have. If you have "weak" credit, chances are you're out of luck, unless you have some big money down or something to make the deal a better investment for the lender. Average credit customers are going to really be capped on how much they can borrow and the rates are going to be higher. Perfect credit still has limits to the amount you can borrow in relation to value, but not as bad. I used to be able to get GMAC to buy any deal i sent them, now its hard to get them to buy deals for anyone with less than perfect credit. I'm definately having to work a lot harder just to get loans approved.

    Basically lenders are tightening up overadvances, and terms. So if you're way upside down in your trade, you'll probably need some cash down to get the loan/value ration below 120%. This is in BIG part to the resale values of trucks and suv's crashing, and the "big three" losing thier tails on lease turn-ins. No one wants to make a leap and loan out money on something with such a bad track record of depreciation like a truck or SUV.
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    mattgg1mattgg1 Member Posts: 191
    Of course you won't respond.

    kirstie_h - Would you allow fandiguy to respond to my last two posts? I think they are within the realm of getting the best deal, as they are about my ability to buy below invoice and the prices given to family/friends.
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    fandiguyfandiguy Member Posts: 101
    OK, mattgg.

    My close friends, family members, and myself buy cars at stripped to the bone NET. When my wife and I bought our last car, i assumed we'd hit a stairstep program and talked with the salesmanagers and bought the car $1000 below cost. We hit the stairstep and the $1000 was applied so it was a $0 deal. The same thing goes for my friends and family, whatever is available to get the absolute lowest price, i use for them. No amount of reading forums or third-party articles will get you a better deal than being a manager at a dealership, its just a small perk to put up with so much crap being in this business.
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    isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    To answer your question, to the best of my knowledge, we have never lost money on a car sale.

    I'm in Washington State and our Doc Fee is 50.00.
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    verdugoverdugo Member Posts: 2,286
    Nothing specific, i just recall reading something in these last 250 pages about a really high "dealer fee" from someone in the sacramento area. I could be mistaken.

    I said that in Sacramento, I've only paid $55. Not sure who said that.
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    jmonroejmonroe Member Posts: 8,989
    You mentioned that "dealerships can use rebates that you don't even know are available to make it SEEM like you paid under invoice, trust me i know."

    ‘matt’ --- I don’t know about you but every time I hear someone say “trust me I know”, my guard goes up, waaay up. I’m not so sure about either of those mini statements with this guy. Like when he said, “When my sister leased her last car, i personally lost $800 out of my own pocket, because it dropped me a pay level” (post 4955). Yeah…right.

    In fact, that post made me re-configure my home office. My desk and chair are now hung from the ceiling. It sure was getting deep in here.

    FWIW, Doc Fees are capped at $55 in PA and for that price I’m not going to run my tail off doing that work myself.

    jmonroe

    '15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl

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    tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    My desk and chair are now hung from the ceiling.

    If you're upside down then you will have a really hard time buying a new car. ;)

    (Sorry, I couldn't resist!)

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
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    fandiguyfandiguy Member Posts: 101
    matt’ --- I don’t know about you but every time I hear someone say “trust me I know”, my guard goes up, waaay up. I’m not so sure about either of those mini statements with this guy. Like when he said, “When my sister leased her last car, i personally lost $800 out of my own pocket, because it dropped me a pay level” (post 4955). Yeah…right.

    You don't have to believe me jmonroe, its not like its gonna cost you any money if i'm lying to you! I'm stating facts from someone who is currently in the business. Some people don't want to believe there are good salespeople and F&I managers out there, and thats sad. Why is it hard to believe i took a small hit to my pay to help out my little sister? I'd to anything for my family, anytime. She was in college and needed the lowest possible payment, so thats what i did. I'd do it again in a heartbeat because thats what family does for each other.
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    jmonroejmonroe Member Posts: 8,989
    Some people don't want to believe there are good salespeople and F&I managers out there, and thats sad. Why is it hard to believe i took a small hit to my pay to help out my little sister? I'd to anything for my family, anytime.

    I never said there weren’t good people in your biz. There are a lot more today than years ago and I found two the last times I bought in 05’ and 06’ and I pleasantly surprised by that since I thought it would be business as usual when I set out to buy in 05’. The ones that come here are proof there are good ones; they want to help or they wouldn’t be here. If they enjoyed fighting they would have stayed in the showroom.

    As for helping out your “little sister” you should have stated the facts of that situation, then I would have understood. Sort of like providing all the facts up front so a buyer can understand what they are getting and there won’t be any surprises.

    I commend you for your love of family. They’re the ones that keep us going in any walk of life.

    Maybe now I can put my office furniture back the way it was. :D

    jmonroe

    '15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl

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    obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    You mentioned his post #4955. His last sentence was:
    When my sister leased her last car, i personally lost $800 out of my own pocket, because it dropped me a pay level.

    So he did mention that it was his sister and he had to retype it again that it was his sister to answer your post. Only reason I'm posting this is because I remember reading it the first time and after your comment went back to reread it again.

    That's ok though. I understand the age part along with the furniture. Speaking of furniture...... :P
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    fandiguyfandiguy Member Posts: 101
    Understandable. Im not one to come onto these things and lie, i hold my integrity and character to a higher standard than that. Sorry i wasn't more clear with my statement, i just figured stating i helped my sister would be enough.

    I'm glad you've had good luck, becuase even now there are still bad guys out there. Dealerships really got the bad rep during the 80's and 90's, i've seen a HUGE change in the way most stores run after 9/11. I've never personally worked for one of the "snakes," but do know of several stores with really bad reputations that have done a complete 180 over the last few years. Its just a different business now. Customers are more educated and have plenty of buying options, so you really have to give them a reason to buy from you. In my dealerships case; its honesty, fair busniess, and treating every customer with respect. Thats why they buy from us rather than the other 25-30 gm dealerships in a 100 mile radius.
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    jenna6jenna6 Member Posts: 2
    Hi Everyone.....
    I hope you can help me with few questions here......
    I made a deal with a private seller in Novi Micigan for a Lexus ES 350. I live in Chatham Ontario Canada.
    I need some help regarding moving the car from Novi Michigan to Chatham Ontario.
    I have read all the information and know what all the documents are required but I have the following questions that I am not clear about.

    1. Since I have to drive that car from Novi Michigan to the Canadian border. Can I get a temporary permit in Michigan to drive the car to the border ? Do they issue temporary permits to Canadians ? What all things would I need to go to DMV office to get it ?

    2. When I fax the title to the US customs 72 hours before, Do I fax it after the title is in my name or can the seller fax it before he signs the title to me. DO I need to fax any other documents to the US customs.

    Any help is appreciated as I am going there to pick up the car in couple of weeks.
    please email me at Jenna.Kanniethyahoo.ca or post it here...... ,

    PLEASE PLEASE HELP ME !!!!
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    traindrivertraindriver Member Posts: 328
    I know NOTHING about this but....

    Did you look through the "importing car into canada from us" forum?
    Find the "Search forums" box and type in "Canada".

    I stumbled across this recently:

    importing into Canada

    It came from here:

    An ebay auction that has some Canadian info

    scroll down towards bottom for canadian info

    Good luck! hope this helps or perhaps steers you in the right direction
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    tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    Importing Car into Canada from US should be helpful.

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
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    Karen_SKaren_S Member Posts: 5,092
    A reporter hopes to interview a consumer who has negotiated a great deal on a car recently. Please respond to jfallon@edmunds.com before Friday, October 10, 2008 with your daytime contact information and a few words about your experience.
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    irishgirl22irishgirl22 Member Posts: 2
    Hello everyone, I'm new here and trying to find out the best way to get the best price on a new car. I've found a few that i like but a few are a couple of thousand more than i want to spend.....
    what's the best way to find out if they are really in my price range? True value/price of the car?

    Is it better to go to the dealer with cash and say....."this is my offer...take it or leave it" etc..

    anyone want to give me your suggestions :)
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