Buying Tips - How Do I Get the Best Deal?

kyfdx

Toyota invoices are different..

The base invoice price you see here on Edmunds includes the WFS and Holdback numbers.. But, the total is the same.. Toyota just happens to break them out..

TDA (toyota dealer assn.) isn't included in the Edmunds invoice, because it varies by location. That is an advertising fee..

daileyad

Edmunds invoice price is listed as $22,704 My understanding is edmunds includes Destination charge, dealer holdback and whsl. financial reserves in their invoice but do not include TDA or the invoice price on the floor mats.

The print out from my dealer shows a vehicle base invoice price of $19,932 + $1478 in options (invoice price) +destination charge($685) +TDA($419) +Gasoline($10) +Dealer Holdback($453) +Whsl.. Financial Reserve ($226) for a total invoice price of $23,203.

My numbers are right aren't they? Am I missing something? The only other charges are the sales tax which they computed at the right rate, $88 in tag/registration fees, and the $50 doc. fee. :confuse:

kyfdx

Edmunds shows the destination charge on the last page, where you choose your options.. It isn't on the first page...

But, it sounds like the difference is mainly due to TDA, which isn't included in the Edmunds invoice, as noted above..

Kirstie_H

And wow, some people are bound & determined to disbelieve that you just flat-out got a good deal :confuse:

Oh well, sometimes it does happen... right day, right time, right vehicle, and you win.

obyone

Actually what's the most important thing here is that the "INDIVIDUAL" believes that he got a good deal regardless if that is true or not.

As Isell says Life is Short enjoy your ride...or something or other like that. :shades:

kyfdx

Uh... NOT!!

Perception is not reality... lol... :shades:

obyone

What was that saying.....it's true if you believe.....

parviz

That is something new to me. So they add the holdback to the invoice, meaning the holdback comes out of the buyer's pocket? Is that true for all manufacturers in one shape or another? (I understand that technically the customer is paying everyone else but I thought the holdback was just something between the dealer and the manufacturer).

obyone

Toyota invoicing is rather strange and from what I've seen so far it is rather suspect.

Yes holdback is between the dealer and the manufacturer and shouldn't appear on any customer sales slip or moroney sticker.

kyfdx

Rough example..

Honda invoice

$22,000 MSRP

$20,000 base invoice


Toyota invoice

$22,000 MSRP

$19,600 base invoice

$400 Holdback

$20,000 total invoice


------------------------------------

Now, the Honda dealer gets 2% Holdback, just like the Toyota dealer, but it's not listed on the invoice... The Honda dealer's actual cost is $19,600, just like Toyota, but it's hidden..

If you look up the Toyota invoice on Edmunds, it will look just like the Honda invoice.. Edmunds rolls the wholesale financial reserve and the holdback into the base invoice number.

Edmunds Toyota invoice

$22,000 MSRP

$20,000 base invoice

--------------------------------------------------

So, Toyota doesn't do anything differently, but break out the numbers on the invoice... It's actually more transparent.

This is where things get sticky during negotiation.. They always tell you to negotiate up from invoice... but, then the invoice price can be just about whatever a dealer wants it to be...

Know your invoice prices, but negotiate your deal in actual dollar amounts with all fees included..

regards,
kyfdx

obyone

then the invoice price can be just about whatever a dealer wants it to be...

Maybe I'm not communicating but I could've sworn that's what I said. Course to save the innocent I wasn't as straight forward. So you're saying that holdback appears on the moroney sticker for Toyotas? or just in Edmunds?

In actuality $100 over Toyota dealers invoice could really be a bad deal since they manipulate invoice? lol

verdugo

So you're saying that holdback appears on the moroney sticker for Toyotas?

Moroney stickers don't list invoice prices for any brand. The dealer must've shown him a printout with the invoice price.

jo14

Researching a Toyota Camry Le 4 cylinder and the Edmunds TMV is coming out as the same price as the MSRP. Does this mean Camrys are being sold at sticker price or can we negotiate a better deal? Any advice how to pick a $$$ number to offer to dealer to start the discussion about the price? Do we start at the invoice number or a few hundred dollars over invoice? thanks in advance

euphonium

Some dealers price their used vehicles so high that when the customer offers 25% less, the negotiation goes from there and ends with a price far in excess of soft market value enabling the seller to make a larger profit than usual or normal. The customer feels he got a really good deal, not realizing the initial asking price was way too much to begin with.

The customer is to be pro active and issue a check in the amount he decides to pay. If the dealer accepts it, all parties are satisfied. If the dealer rejects the offer, drive away.

The dealer always comes out best when a trade in is involved. It complicates the deal always to his advantage.

kyfdx

Right..

We are talking about invoices, not Monroney stickers..

Here is the thing about Toyota invoices.. The customer looks up the invoice price on Edmunds, calls the dealer and says,

"I want a new Camry for invoice + $500."

Dealer:

"Sure, come on in."

When, they get there, the dealer pulls out his invoice, and right at the bottom are fees for Wholesale Financial Reserve, Holdback, and TDA..

Dealer:

"Edmunds doesn't include those items, so we have to add those on."

What he doesn't point out to the customer.. .is that the number at the top of the invoice is lower than Edmunds number, by the same amount he is adding for the WFR and the Holdback. (TDA actually is extra).

That doesn't make Toyota's dealer invoice deceitful... but, you might apply that term to the dealer.

Anyway, even though we know the dealer invoice prices, we don't have any right to that information.. Bringing up the invoice price in negotiations can only give the dealer another avenue to obfuscate the actual price you are paying for the car.. It is to any salesperson's advantage to keep you off balance during negotiations. That's how the game works. Even honest salespeople use techniques to get the highest price possible. That's what they are paid for!

Keep your offers in real dollar amounts, and it makes it much simpler.. Know the invoice and holdback numbers, but use that information to help yourself, not the dealer.

regards,
kyfdx

user777

After one trys to beat the dealer at his game to get the best price, one shouldn't go tossing extra money out the window by financing for a really long period or at really bad terms... :shades:

obyone

The dealer always comes out best when a trade in is involved. It complicates the deal always to his advantage.

Old news. It's only as complicated as you make it. Look at the bottom line on both it isn't that hard to figure out. One thing is always a constant. You will always be better off selling it yourself.

obyone

So based on the info dailyad provided. Did he in reality get a good deal? Or would we need a copy of that invoice to tell? To me the numbers don't add up. It seems that the Toyota dealer gave the car away and paid too much for the trade. Course while possible, highly improbable.

exb0

TMV is wrong. The reason why it TMV = MSRP is because 2009 is a new model year that just came out. However, according to Edmunds there is nothing new about it. IMHO, the reason Toyota changed the model year so early is because 2008 has poor quality rating by Consumer Reports and others. I don’t know were you live, but fitzmall.com in MD and PA sells 09 Camries for up to $769 under invoice.

Any advice how to pick a $$$ number to offer to dealer to start the discussion about the price?

Just like I said before, request out the door quotes from dealers. The lowest quote that you get, should be the most that you pay for this car.

Kirstie_H

Sometimes, when a brand new model year comes out, we don't have enough sales data to calculate a TMV.... so take it for what it's worth when a model is just emerging. We need a few months of sales to tell what's selling for what!

verdugo

How do you get sales data? I've always wondered about that.

jipster

How do you get sales data?

Like the recipe to KFC chicken... it is a tightly guarded secret. :surprise:

oldfarmer50

"...How do you get sales data..."

They wait until a slow month and then they approach sales guys like Mack and Moo and Greanpea with a little "palm grease".

jo14

I apologize for the confusion about which model we were loooking at. We are looking to buy a Toyota Camry LE (4 cylinder).

And the info I was referring to about the TMV was for the 09. When I searched for the TMV for the 08 I did get one one: MSRP = 21,735, Invoice = 19,520 and TMV = 19,977. That calculates to $457 over invoice.

Do you think I could make a similar offer i.e. 400 over invoice for the 09?

another kind of off-topic question but related - would the deal be better for the 08 than the 09?
(09 MSRP = 21,225, Invoice = 19.665)

By the way, I have no trade and do not need financing from dealer.
Anyway thanks for the replies and any additional advice.

55396

"Do you think I could make a similar offer i.e. 400 over invoice for the 09?"

You can make any offer you want. The dealer won't hesitate to cut you down to your shoe laces if he thinks you will go for it. And, if you don't, he will negotiate up from there. But only as high as he needs to go to get your name on the line.

jmonroe

another kind of off-topic question but related - would the deal be better for the 08 than the 09?
(09 MSRP = 21,225, Invoice = 19.665)

You think that's off topic? The Hosts have had their prayers answered when you showed up.

I agree with '55396'. Make an offer and see how it is received. If it's rediculus you will have extended the time of negotiating if not provided them some amusement which will end when they see another buyer walk in.

My philosophy is to do your research and make a fair and one time offer. Doing it that way you're ready to sign the papers within 30 minutes or less.

It's your time and money so you're the boss.

Good luck and let us know how you did, You have no idea how many people come here for advice and then never let us know how they did or the method they used. Don't let yourself be one of the buyers we talk about here.

Post up and avoid that.

jmonroe

55396

"It's your time and money so you're the boss."

I agree. It sounds to me like you could use a bit more confidence, so get your facts in order so you know where you are. When you are ready and feel your number is what is right for you, go in with a serious straight face, and lay it out. Ask for a yes or no answer, and be ready to walk. Here's the deal, the dealer knows that if you walk out that door, he may never see you again. There are lots of other dealers and tell him you are going to buy from the first one that accepts your number - then do it. You can always come back. Only you know if you will or not. Play a bit of poker here. Keep your hand hidden. And then, refuse the add ons that are sure to come so he can work his position back up again. YOU are the one in charge. YOU need to be in the drivers seat, and to do that, you need to be confident and comfortable in your position before you walk through his door.

jmonroe

I agree. It sounds to me like you could use a bit more confidence, so get your facts in order so you know where you are.

YOU are the one in charge. YOU need to be in the drivers seat, and to do that, you need to be confident and comfortable in your position before you walk through his door.

Why are you telling me this.? It's 'jo14' that wants to buy a car. :confuse:

I'm one of the know-it-all-buyers here that gives out advice.

jmonroe

55396

"Why are you telling me this.? It's 'jo14' that wants to buy a car. :confuse:

I'm one of the know-it-all-buyers here that gives out advice. "

Yep, you're right. I meant this for jo14. HEY JO

jo14

You are absolutely correct that I need more confidence and need to do my research and that was why I posted my questions here - to gain some knowledge and advice. I'd be happy to share what I hope will be a successful purchase once it happens but in the meantime I will keep reading and calculating and asking questions. Here's another:

I saw an ad for an 08 LE at a local dealer that said MSRP = 21,934, Buy for $18,103. does that mean 18,103 is "the" price? it is actually lower than the TMV.

the ad gave an ID number for the car and when I checked the on-line inventory it was on the list but not the color that I wanted. That 18,103 price is 17.5% less than the MSRP. Would that be applicable to other cars with the exact same MSRP and options?

I just want a fair price that's all. I really don't enjoy this game at all.

qbrozen

I saw an ad for an 08 LE at a local dealer that said MSRP = 21,934, Buy for $18,103. does that mean 18,103 is "the" price? it is actually lower than the TMV.

I've always found TMV too high, personally. But, in any case, the ad you saw could be a "screamer" or "loss leader." Meaning it is one car they particularly want to get rid of, and they use it to get people to come to the dealership. Many times the price even takes into account discounts that not everyone qualifies for (military rebate or recent college grad rebate). The car usually sells very quickly, but folks keep coming in for it and several of them may decide to buy something else while they are there. So its an ad that does its job.

In other words, no, you probably can't get the same discount on another car. I'm not saying this is definitely the case, but I'd say it happens more often than not.

Kirstie_H

Well, I can't give you inside company info, but here's a link that explains how we get TMV:
http://www.edmunds.com/tmv/about_new.html

55396

"actual transaction price data."

I don't know how much weight this carries, but being that most buyers don't know how to get the best deal, I assume this drives the TMV up higher than an educated buyer may be able to buy at. The shrewd buyers must certainly be a small percentage.

jipster

TMV is the average price a buyer pays. So, a shrewd buyer would want to pay below TMV.

verdugo

Thanks Kirstie.

user777

but by how much? if the standard deviation is small...

i think people have to educate then know when to say when. if you're looking for every last penny, you're probably going to blow the deal.

anyway - people trying to get the lowest price on the vehicle then throwing money wastefully at it with sub-optimal loan terms... or something that depreciates very quickly and isn't desireable used by anyone...

the best deal needs to consider the entire transaction over the term one plans to own the vehicle, not just one figure like the TMV.

jipster

but by how much?

How much below TMV you could buy a vehicle for would be based on research and your negotiation skills.

user777

well, the first point i was trying to make was, just because an average statistic is provided, it doesn't provide enough information to know what the standard deviation or variance is, nor the actual type of distribution.

the second point was, people shouldn't get so fixed on beating some price that they loose site of the other factors which truly affect the "real deal".

verdugo

How much below TMV you could buy a vehicle for would be based on research and your negotiation skills.

And market demand, and pure luck. Who knows, they might need just one more unit to get a bonus, and you're in the right place and the right time.

micosilver

but by how much? if the standard deviation is small...

If you don't know how much - you are not a shrewd buyer. If you don't have a certain skill - don't expect to get paid for it.

geffen

I recently noticed one of the dealerships is having a blowout sale and they've marked down several of their cars that appear to have older stock #'s they have the prices clearly marked almost like the no haggle dealerships do, would i have room to negotiate on older stock the dealers trying to get rid of when they've slashed their pricing?

kiawah

I'm sure you can try, and they might expect some folks to ask. But typically when they do a slash down that is pretty much the bottom line. If you don't care whether you are able to get that car or not, and potentially keep looking around or pay more for a different car, then give them an offer of something lower. They'll either take it, tell you to take a hike, or counter. I'm sure you'll hear at least one time, that they've already lowered it and have taken out their negotiation room, and are 'selling this one at a loss'.

On the other hand if you recognize that this is a good value, buy it before someone else does. The problem that is pretty wide spread is people don't know what a good deal is, they just assume one must be able to negotiate lower from any price that is shown They get a good deal, and don't pull the trigger to accept.

Do your research, know what a good price is, and if it meets it and the vehicle is what you are looking for.....take it.

jmonroe

I recently noticed one of the dealerships is having a blowout sale…

...would i have room to negotiate on older stock the dealers trying to get rid of when they've slashed their pricing?

I’m a believer that whatever is being advertised you can buy it for less. BECAUSE, even if you’ve done your research and it is in fact a good price, there are several things that could be going on: (1) there are some additional incentives to the dealer that you aren’t aware of because no matter how much you research it isn’t always up to date on the newest developments, (2) they have a good price on the car but they plan on ‘stealing’ your trade, (3) it could be an old school bate and switch. Like, “darn, that car was just sold and we didn’t have a chance to pull the tags off yet but, hey, lookie over here this is a nice one”. :mad:

Because of (1) I say offer something less, say, $500, but be prepared, they may throw you out on your ear if it is their bottom line price. No harm done, you can always go back. Then again, if it isn’t sold within a couple of days you could get a call that they can take another $200/$300 off but that’s it. Just keep in mind that the guy you pass on the way out, which is coming in, could be the guy that’s willing to pay their price. As for (2) this is why I never trade, just complicates the whole transaction. Now, (3), you should recognize this pretty quick.

I’m sure there are other reasons why or why not, so, I’ll let some of the other know-it-alls here chime in but I doubt you’ll get any advice better than mine. Be especially careful of what ‘jipster‘ has to say. He’s sold so many buyer’s down the river, we’re starting to think he’s in the biz.

Tell us how you did.

jmonroe

55396

My dad used to buy from one local dealer. My dad was also a businessman. We would go in and get a quote. May dad thought he was a negotiator. It went like this.

Oh c'mon now Paul, you have to sharpen your pencil, and Paul would come back with a lower price. Now, if any of you think he did the right thing, you will probably get screwed. See, Paul knew how the game was played, so he started out with an inflated price, let my dad play his game, then negotiated down to the price he really wanted in the first place and everyone was happy. Ignorance is bliss. Of course, we have better tools today. Still, many don't use them.

Anyway, when the deal was struck, my dad would say 'Ill pay you when the crops come in and the farmers pay me', and they would shake hands on the deal. That was it. No bank. No interest. Try that one today.

snakeweasel

(3) it could be an old school bate and switch. Like, “darn, that car was just sold and we didn't’ have a chance to pull the tags off yet but, hey, lookie over here this is a nice one”.

I have a buddy who pulled into a Ford dealership on either Wednesday or Thursday afternoon inquiring about a basic Fusion with a manual tranny. Salesman kept telling him that that car would have to be specially ordered and wasn't sure if he could get one anytime soon and tried to steer him into a automatic. My friend really wanted a manual and was about to leave and the salesman just wanted him to meet the sales manager.

Well the sales manager knew something the salesman didn't. That was that the dealership had just taken delivery of a manual Fusion for a big weekend sale where they were going to advertise Fusions starting at a low price (that manual one being the only one at that price). My friend made a deal and even before the car was advertised in the paper he had bought it.

Sometimes timing can be everything.

jipster

Sometimes timing can be everything

Yep. If he had waited a day, and bought at the advertised price, he would have saved a bundle. :P

geffen

you're right there jmonroe, i had the salesman place a credit card hold on the car so i can head in tommorow in hopes to get a good deal, I have to add i was at another dealership doing test drives and they were so pushy when i told the salesman im just test driving he had to bring out his manager to talk to me and tell me how they shelled out a lot of dollars for their current promotion and how they wanted me to buy today, i basically said no for the tenth time and thanks for your time and left. The only thing i could think of is they must not be near their monthly quotas on car sales.

80srockgod

Can someone please tell me the DCX employee discount?

Some people have told me it's a dollar amount under invoice.. some people said it's 3% under invoice... some 6% under invoice...

Is the reason I've heard differeng stories is because it changes with time? Changes depending on make//model?

The last person I believed said it was 6% below invoice across the board for any chrysler product....

What is right?

Thanks!

kiawah

If you qualify for it, just go pick a car and ask the dealership...they'll print you out the details for the vehicle and you'll know exactly.

I've bought both a Ford and a Chevy using different plans, easiest transactions possible. The plan is the plan, the dealership will be extremely open and upfront with all information once they know you qualify.

traindriver

According to the website, the discount is 1% under invoice. There may also be additional rebates available that the general public is not eligible for.

DCrewards