> This argument is ridiculous. The MSRP is there for a reason. It's a starting > point. If someone chooses to pay that, that's their perogative.
Yes. And if the customer "chooses" to pay MSRP plus fees, more fees, mop and glow, tire protection package, extended warranty, and rust and dust, that is also the customer's prerogative.
And if you as the salesman let them pay that, that's your prerogative.
> Hey Moo, this guy might be an easy mark after all.
I find that remark insulting and offensive. You're an articulate man Joel, and can make your point without referring to people as "this guy". Please try to do that.
I thought my crafty use of the emotorcon would alert people to the fact that I was indeed joking with the poster who had just pointed out that he liked "pulling peoples chain"
> You guys sound like you want every [salesperson] to walk around holding > your hands and showing you the best way to save money!
That is what a good person would do. It's up to you, Moo, to decide how you want to handle these situations as a salesperson.
> I see no reason to expect that a salesman would run around "educating" > everyone about what prices should be acceptable to the consumer.
Correct. Such behavior would be unexpected from a salesperson.
> So, you're unhappy with the system. Deal with it, because it's not changing.
Am I unhappy? Would it be easier for you to accept your place in society if I were unhappy? I'm sorry you failed to talk your way out of your own personal responsibility in this matter. I think that society's view of the salesman's rampant individualism is pretty plain, but I thought it was worth explaining. I'm sorry if I upset you.
None of my comments were directed at you. I was talking to 55396 or something. I thought that what you posted about the scenario was great.
No barbs thrown at you!
-moo
Edit: I just reread and I can see why you would think I'm talking to you. My reply was meant to reply to 55897's post. I thought that his arguments were reaching "ludicrous speed". It appears that they were based on his feedback.
I was not kidding. I saw the emotorcon, but it didn't soften the blow by much.
If you feel you were justified in your remark because he said he liked pulling people's chain, then so be it. Who am I to judge? I'm just an uptight German, anyway!
But I asked the salesman for the keys, he goes to the managers desk for a few minutes, comes back without them, so I ask again. He dances around the subject, I get up, go to the managers station with the salesman right behind. I tell the manager I want my keys, he keeps trying to negotiate, so when I ask if I have to call the police, he finally gives me my keys. I understand all that about getting my car valued and all, but when I repeatedly ask for the keys, and never get them, then it's not an oversight!
And some companies use a duuble retail structure, at least they used to. One was what you displayed on the product. The other was thr real one. This allowed the seller to negotiate down to the real price and still get full mark up. What a deal, eh?
And some companies use a duuble retail structure, at least they used to. One was what you displayed on the product. The other was thr real one. This allowed the seller to negotiate down to the real price and still get full mark up. What a deal, eh?
I can't remember major purchases pre-internet. In the age of the internet, I just don't see this happening. The point is, no one is holding a gun to the person's head forcing them to buy any product. I think its silly to pay $500 for a HD-DVD player, so I don't have one. I don't know, if I don't like a deal, I just leave. Its never been that big an issue for me. If someone decides to buy a Honda Accord EX for 23,500, who the heck is anyone to stop them. They decided it was worth 23.5k to them. I decided it was worth about 19k to me. Thats what I was willing to pay. I don't see the issue. Do you feel like the sales guy should've sold the car for 19k to the guy willing to pay 23.5? I certainly wouldn't expect that.
"None of my comments were directed at you. I was talking to 55396 or something. I thought that what you posted about the scenario was great."
The name is Jerry, if that is less confusing for you. Why, as close as we have become, you can even call me 'This Guy' or whatever. Rest assured, I have been called worse. You know, sticks and stones, can break my bones, but words can never hurt me? If anything, it points back to the one using them. I take no offense, but reserve the right to return fire. ;-) The world really is getting too 'touchy' these days.
Well, the car dealers and salesmen worked hard to get the reputation that they have. It seems they are still working very hard to keep it. Must be trying to ace out lawyers. OOPS, I spose I'll be in trouble again. Damn, I hate it when that happens.
OK, Moo, we can continue however you wish. I wouldn't be posting here if I weren't enjoying the conversation. (That doesn't mean I'm trying to pull your chain, by the way.)
I'm with you about getting my fur up when this happens. But I've got news for ya. I wasn't even car shopping in the 70s or 80s. I had this happen as recently as April 2003 at a Honda dealer! I finally went up to the magical desk where all the salespeople report, peeked over the edge, spotted my keys and grabbed them.
If the Buy it Now is the only price, that's one thing, but if the starting bid is $300, that's another. If someone chooses the BIN #, they are probably the same guy that stands in line all night to get the latest gadget. He wants it NOW and is willing to pay for it. He chooses to do that rather than bid and chance losing it, which has been presented as an option.
Ah! I'm so glad you've come around. So, you see, the BIN price is what the salesperson first gave you. You chose to negotiate (ie, bid). In some cases, the guy may get people to pay the BIN number. Obviously, you now don't see a problem with that and you understand the system. I'm glad to have helped!
In either case, there is no high pressured salesman trying to lead him.
TRYING is the operative word. If you are an fully functioning adult who is able to make up his/her own mind, it should not matter what the salesperson does or says. Not to mention, to carry on the ebay comparison, a well worded and fancy looking ad can be persuasive to the impressionable, as well.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Even though I am not a salesperson, I have to disagree with 55396.
With sites like edmunds, consumer reports, kbb, etc, consumers have access to all sorts of information about dealer's costs and market value. Even those without a computer can head down to the local public library and get this information gratis. Compare that with other industries where cost and market value are very difficult, if not impossible to obtain.
Given the fact that these sources of information are so widely available, I feel that the consumer bears some "personal responsibility" to make sure that they are educated before entering the showroom. In this information age, there really isn't much excuse for not doing your homework, other than laziness. If a person doesn't treat their second largest purchase with the respect that it deserves, then they need to accept that they will pay for their lack of research. If somebody is too lazy to spend 5 minutes searching for the TMV price of edmunds or whatever, then I can't feel sorry for them if they overpay for their new vehicle.
Salepeople aren't social workers. Their job is to sell whatever widgets they are paid to move. I think if people are expecting them to be social workers, they are seriously deluding themselves. People need to stop expecting somebody to "hold their hands" and take some responsibility for their own actions and their own lives. You are the one signing the check, not the salesperson. If you don't like the deal, then walk. If you aren't sure if you are getting the best deal, do some research and shop around. You are spending $20,000, $30,000, $100,000 or whatever on a vehicle. Isn't that worth doing a little bit of homework? If it isn't, then I can't feel sorry for you if you pay over the market value for your car.
If you aren't going to do the minimum amount of research, then don't come crying to me that the salesperson misled you. You had the power in your hands to shape your own destiny. If you aren't willing to take advantage of that power, then you deserve to pay $8000 more than the next guy. I am sorry if this sounds harsh, but it really bothers me when people don't take initiative to help themselves,, especially when it is so easy to avoid paying that extra $8000.
There are some exceptions to this however:
1. If the salesperson uses coercision or deception, then that is wrong. However, if it just a matter of the salesperson making an "above market" offer, that is hardly what I would call deceptive.
2. If the consumer is obviously impaired mentally, then the salesperson IS to blame if he or she takes advantage of the situation.
"Obviously, you now don't see a problem with that and you understand the system. I'm glad to have helped!"
Well, I suppose you could look at it that way. Obviously, you see it the way you want. And I'm glad you think you helped.
" If you are an fully functioning adult who is able to make up his/her own mind"
Well if you have been reading these posts, you know that to be the case. And, you should also know that my only concern is for the uninformed being taken advantage of.
"With sites like edmunds, consumer reports, kbb, etc, consumers have access to all sorts of information about dealer's costs and market value."
Would you consider the remote possibility that some people aren't computer literate or don't even have one? Yes, they could go to the library, but would they know enough to use one there? Far more know how to email and that's about it. At least that's the case in my world. But then, they may not earn enough to buy a new car, so why should we care about them? Even if they find this forum and all they see is posts from people in the business, it won't help much.
Anyway, I feel that the back and forth we have been having should prove helpful to the beginner. So, what's your problem with that?
"but it really bothers me when people don't take initiative to help themselves,"
Me too. But, if they're reading this, wouldn't you say they're trying? Hopefully, there is something here they can use. There is a first time for everyone. Let's try to give them some tools to help themselves.
"We have a long history of Kirby stories on this board. What's the story about the "old" Kirby salesman... he die on you or something?"
Haven't seen one in years. Maybe they're X-stinct. Still have one. Bought a $130 Kenmore/Panasonic store return on ebay for $19. Works great. Wife uses it regularly while the Kirby sits downstairs. Bagless too.
"Also, glad you and moo are best buddies now."
Oh yea. He's gonna give me a great deal on a Porsche. Pretty sounding exhaust too. Right Moo? Mooooo. Moooooooooooooooooooo where are you?
"For awhile I was afraid he was going to give you the "snake" treatment. "
OH NO, not the SNAKE treatment. He learn that from Snakeweasel?
I'm getting more and more confused by this thread as we go along. Are you 2 in cahoots?
No, I'm in California.
I'm wondering what happened to the "old lady buying a car" scenarios we were discussing. That was a good scenario for exploring the complexities of sales and selling.
Ah! I'm so glad you've come around. ... You chose to negotiate (ie, bid). ... Obviously, you now don't see a problem with that and you understand the system. I'm glad to have helped!
I agree with you about the point you're making here. In fairness to Jerry, he was (originally at least) talking about old ladies as the customer, which may be seen as a slightly different situation. Another poster brought up the example of a mentally challenged customer.
I guess I'm just trying to turn the conversation to what I want to talk about; but that's partly because I'm in 100% agreement about your point that negotiation is by itself, a perfectly legitimate practice.
Oh, you're asking if Jerry and I are coordinating our activities, sort of out-of-band like? Absolutely no! No. No. If I were kidding I would say No... but I'm being straight with you.
I am replying to you as a courtesy so you don't waste your time like this anymore. I believe you are a troll and because of that I pass your posts without reading them. So in the future save yourself a little time and don't address me.
i think the best deal is a 2 year old american car...i have seen 06 tauruses for $9500...the 3.0 v6 is very durable, i know some prefer foreign, but i have always had good luck with fords and chevys...if youre not picky, you can save quite a bit and get a reliable car
A lot of your Metropolitan dealers still follow this method. Most of your smaller rural dealers don't. Reason the rural dealer has to depend on repeat business and the metro dealers don't. They see it as their job to sell you a car today at all costs, because if they don't the next dealer will. At smaller rural dealers there is more of a personal relationship with the customer. I am a car salesman and I see the people I sell vehicles too everyday at church, ballgames grocery store ect. Kinda hard to pull that kind of antics on those people. Don't get me wrong we try and make a fair profit but the high pressure stuff in not part of our SOP.
Not only that but word spreads around the population a lot faster in a smaller community. Say you live in a rural community with about 20K people. You tell 10 people about a bad experience and they tell 10 people and those people tell 10 people you know have 5% of the population about that.
Now if that happened here where I live less than .01% of the population would have heard about it.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Exactly and here it's not just friends but their relatives business you loose and they tell their friends. As the old saying goes the best advertising is word of mouth, but it is also a two edge sword in the smaller communities. As you were also saying the metro delers can get away with it because if they piss you off there will be 10 more behind you that will never hear about your bad experience
Comments
Why pay $8 shipping included when you can read it here for free?
Hey Moo, this guy might be an easy mark after all.
> point. If someone chooses to pay that, that's their perogative.
Yes. And if the customer "chooses" to pay MSRP plus fees, more fees, mop and glow, tire protection package, extended warranty, and rust and dust, that is also the customer's prerogative.
And if you as the salesman let them pay that, that's your prerogative.
I find that remark insulting and offensive. You're an articulate man Joel, and can make your point without referring to people as "this guy". Please try to do that.
I thought my crafty use of the
> your hands and showing you the best way to save money!
That is what a good person would do. It's up to you, Moo, to decide how you want to handle these situations as a salesperson.
> I see no reason to expect that a salesman would run around "educating"
> everyone about what prices should be acceptable to the consumer.
Correct. Such behavior would be unexpected from a salesperson.
> So, you're unhappy with the system. Deal with it, because it's not changing.
Am I unhappy? Would it be easier for you to accept your place in society if I were unhappy? I'm sorry you failed to talk your way out of your own personal responsibility in this matter. I think that society's view of the salesman's rampant individualism is pretty plain, but I thought it was worth explaining. I'm sorry if I upset you.
-moo
None of my comments were directed at you. I was talking to 55396 or something. I thought that what you posted about the scenario was great.
No barbs thrown at you!
-moo
Edit: I just reread and I can see why you would think I'm talking to you. My reply was meant to reply to 55897's post. I thought that his arguments were reaching "ludicrous speed". It appears that they were based on his feedback.
If you feel you were justified in your remark because he said he liked pulling people's chain, then so be it. Who am I to judge? I'm just an uptight German, anyway!
I can't remember major purchases pre-internet. In the age of the internet, I just don't see this happening. The point is, no one is holding a gun to the person's head forcing them to buy any product. I think its silly to pay $500 for a HD-DVD player, so I don't have one.
I don't know, if I don't like a deal, I just leave. Its never been that big an issue for me. If someone decides to buy a Honda Accord EX for 23,500, who the heck is anyone to stop them. They decided it was worth 23.5k to them. I decided it was worth about 19k to me. Thats what I was willing to pay. I don't see the issue.
Do you feel like the sales guy should've sold the car for 19k to the guy willing to pay 23.5? I certainly wouldn't expect that.
The name is Jerry, if that is less confusing for you. Why, as close as we have become, you can even call me 'This Guy' or whatever. Rest assured, I have been called worse. You know, sticks and stones, can break my bones, but words can never hurt me? If anything, it points back to the one using them. I take no offense, but reserve the right to return fire. ;-) The world really is getting too 'touchy' these days.
Well, the car dealers and salesmen worked hard to get the reputation that they have. It seems they are still working very hard to keep it. Must be trying to ace out lawyers. OOPS, I spose I'll be in trouble again. Damn, I hate it when that happens.
I believe we are returning fire, which is fine. That's the purpose of this forum.
-moo
I'm offended by that
You're Batman!
Ah! I'm so glad you've come around. So, you see, the BIN price is what the salesperson first gave you. You chose to negotiate (ie, bid). In some cases, the guy may get people to pay the BIN number. Obviously, you now don't see a problem with that and you understand the system. I'm glad to have helped!
In either case, there is no high pressured salesman trying to lead him.
TRYING is the operative word. If you are an fully functioning adult who is able to make up his/her own mind, it should not matter what the salesperson does or says. Not to mention, to carry on the ebay comparison, a well worded and fancy looking ad can be persuasive to the impressionable, as well.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
-moo
With sites like edmunds, consumer reports, kbb, etc, consumers have access to all sorts of information about dealer's costs and market value. Even those without a computer can head down to the local public library and get this information gratis. Compare that with other industries where cost and market value are very difficult, if not impossible to obtain.
Given the fact that these sources of information are so widely available, I feel that the consumer bears some "personal responsibility" to make sure that they are educated before entering the showroom. In this information age, there really isn't much excuse for not doing your homework, other than laziness. If a person doesn't treat their second largest purchase with the respect that it deserves, then they need to accept that they will pay for their lack of research. If somebody is too lazy to spend 5 minutes searching for the TMV price of edmunds or whatever, then I can't feel sorry for them if they overpay for their new vehicle.
Salepeople aren't social workers. Their job is to sell whatever widgets they are paid to move. I think if people are expecting them to be social workers, they are seriously deluding themselves. People need to stop expecting somebody to "hold their hands" and take some responsibility for their own actions and their own lives. You are the one signing the check, not the salesperson. If you don't like the deal, then walk. If you aren't sure if you are getting the best deal, do some research and shop around. You are spending $20,000, $30,000, $100,000 or whatever on a vehicle. Isn't that worth doing a little bit of homework? If it isn't, then I can't feel sorry for you if you pay over the market value for your car.
If you aren't going to do the minimum amount of research, then don't come crying to me that the salesperson misled you. You had the power in your hands to shape your own destiny. If you aren't willing to take advantage of that power, then you deserve to pay $8000 more than the next guy. I am sorry if this sounds harsh, but it really bothers me when people don't take initiative to help themselves,, especially when it is so easy to avoid paying that extra $8000.
There are some exceptions to this however:
1. If the salesperson uses coercision or deception, then that is wrong. However, if it just a matter of the salesperson making an "above market" offer, that is hardly what I would call deceptive.
2. If the consumer is obviously impaired mentally, then the salesperson IS to blame if he or she takes advantage of the situation.
Well, I suppose you could look at it that way. Obviously, you see it the way you want. And I'm glad you think you helped.
" If you are an fully functioning adult who is able to make up his/her own mind"
Well if you have been reading these posts, you know that to be the case. And, you should also know that my only concern is for the uninformed being taken advantage of.
DID SOMEBODY SAY KIRBY??? :surprise:
We have a long history of Kirby stories on this board. What's the story about the "old" Kirby salesman... he die on you or something?
Also, glad you and moo are best buddies now. For awhile I was afraid he was going to give you the "snake" treatment.
Would you consider the remote possibility that some people aren't computer literate or don't even have one? Yes, they could go to the library, but would they know enough to use one there? Far more know how to email and that's about it.
At least that's the case in my world. But then, they may not earn enough to buy a new car, so why should we care about them? Even if they find this forum and all they see is posts from people in the business, it won't help much.
Anyway, I feel that the back and forth we have been having should prove helpful to the beginner. So, what's your problem with that?
"but it really bothers me when people don't take initiative to help themselves,"
Me too. But, if they're reading this, wouldn't you say they're trying? Hopefully, there is something here they can use. There is a first time for everyone. Let's try to give them some tools to help themselves.
Haven't seen one in years. Maybe they're X-stinct. Still have one. Bought a $130 Kenmore/Panasonic store return on ebay for $19. Works great. Wife uses it regularly while the Kirby sits downstairs. Bagless too.
"Also, glad you and moo are best buddies now."
Oh yea. He's gonna give me a great deal on a Porsche. Pretty sounding exhaust too. Right Moo? Mooooo. Moooooooooooooooooooo where are you?
"For awhile I was afraid he was going to give you the "snake" treatment.
OH NO, not the SNAKE treatment. He learn that from Snakeweasel?
-moo
-moo
Awwwwwwwww shucks.
No, I'm in California.
I'm wondering what happened to the "old lady buying a car" scenarios we were discussing. That was a good scenario for exploring the complexities of sales and selling.
I agree with you about the point you're making here. In fairness to Jerry, he was (originally at least) talking about old ladies as the customer, which may be seen as a slightly different situation. Another poster brought up the example of a mentally challenged customer.
I guess I'm just trying to turn the conversation to what I want to talk about; but that's partly because I'm in 100% agreement about your point that negotiation is by itself, a perfectly legitimate practice.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Can't we go back to these times?
-moo
For you who is the " Lamb "... The salesperson or the buyer?
GP
That sounds pretty Shi*%y... I myself would think that could make the situation worse and never have a chance of getting them back in the door
GP
But if you want to be that way fine.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Also, you were the one that posted that cute little message. Just do us both a favor and keep scrolling. I will.
-moo
Then you went on off the handle
But if you want to be that way then fine.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Now if that happened here where I live less than .01% of the population would have heard about it.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Ah, a question that didn't need to be asked.