I'm with you on walking out. I was looking at used RAV4 last spring. We started to negotiate, they wanted something like $2000 over KBB excellent condition, and offered $3000 for my 03 Corolla w/80k miles. They said that even though my car was is great shape, they could only value it as being in fair condition because of all of the miles on the car (in addition to knocking off the value because of the high miles). Seems to me I'm being penalized twice for high miles! I wasn't in to long term negotiating, so I left. (Had to go the manager myself to get my keys back, they were playing games with holding on to my keys, to keep me from leaving).
"so I left. (Had to go the manager myself to get my keys back, they were playing games with holding on to my keys, to keep me from leaving)."
Good for you. This is all too typical. One dealer left us sitting in an upstairs room for 25 minutes. There were no other customers, almost 9 PM and we were 100 miles from home. They knew it. We walked too. I guess they 'read' us as really wanting the car, and the wait would make us anxious and agree to pay the price. Went right back to a previous dealer and paid just a bit more for a nicer car. Then, they had the gall and call the next day. Sorry, I told you I was looking at another one. You made the decision for me. Like I was going to drive another 200 miles after they pulled that.
Ha - I thought the "keep the keys thing" was an urban myth until it happened to me last year.
My two cents is that whenever a dealer pulls the slightest crap it's time to head for the door because they'll have more than one trick up their sleeve.
Simply being a consumer does not entitle you to the "best" or even a "fair" deal. It entitles you to the deal of your choice. Nothing more and nothing less
I really think that this is a case of putting the cart before the horse. If you over build housing prices go down, remember the law of supply and demand. Price of a house goes down it makes it hard to refinance an ARM. You cannot refinance an ARM your payments go up. Your payments go up you can't afford the house. And things spiral from there.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Thats my point. If they are the best months then why are they our slowest?
Supply and demand? Demand goes down so does the price. If everyone was buying then the price would go up. Therefor cost wise slow times would be better. How much so I am not sure.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
What a post! That last paragraph of yours is awesome. Let me repeat it for folks who didn't get it the first time. Ignorance does not excuse your from your freedom to spend your dollars on what you want, when, you want, where you want, regardless of "is it a good deal?"
Moo, what would happen if the customer walked into your store and offered $8k below market on a car you’re selling? How long would it take you to show that ignorant, time wasting mooch the door, so that you could go on to the customer?
Capitalism or not, you get pissed off at customers who attempt to take advantage of you by wasting your time driving three different cars and making stupid offers. And don’t tell me that you don’t get pissed off, because I have read your sales stories.
Why is it ok for you to get upset with obnoxious, arrogant customers, but when a salesman is obnoxious and arrogant, it’s just business?
I appreciate the fact that you always like to engage me, however, we're not discussing "obnoxious, arrogant" people. We're discussing something a little bit different.
Someone who has a bunch of numerals in their name thinks that it's unethical to ask for MRSP and offer below book on a trade. That's the discussion at hand.
Honestly, I don't understand how this is so hard. The salesperson is responsible for knowing the product they are selling (it annoys me when they don't know relatively basic info about a vehicle). They are there to help me select a vehicle. I tell the salesperson what features and options etc I am interested in and that person finds the car on the lot for me to look at.
I am responsible for knowing what I want, and how much I am willing to pay. Depending on who you are and what you are interested in, how much you are willing to pay may very. I visited the dealer, found a car, got a quote, and told him I would think about it. Its important to me to feel like I got a good deal so I did some research on Edmunds prices paid forum to and then used internet offers to get my price. I called the salesperson I worked with before and gave him my number to match.
I also researched interest rates and told the finance guy what I needed him to beat.
I ended up saving about $2000 from the original quote and about $4500 off the MSRP. I feel like I got a good deal, the salesperson seemed happy enough with it, and off I went.
I didn't expect the salesperson to tell me about top secret manufacturer to dealer incentives, and I think a lot of the cars were selling at MSRP anyway. His role was to find the car I was looking for, his role was not to be my buddy or my new best friend and tell me about all the secret deals. My role was to be an educated consumer.
The price a car (or a house, or a TV or a baseball card) sells for is the price the market will bear. If someone will pay 23.5 for that car, more power too them, but that finely crafted machine was only worth 19k to me. The dealer agreed.
> ... management, and automotive sales) you will never get me to agree > to the premise that a consumer is "being taken advantage of" in today's > retail economy.
Cool discussion. I think I understand your point, and it's well argued. I would say however that the Larry and Linda Laydowns *are* being exploited (I didn't say "taken advantage of"), just like forests, oil deposits, and furry creatures are exploited. And there are side effects of rampant exploitation of resources. Trust, for example, can be thought of as a natural resource, and if used up, the stores of tomorrow could become quite empty.
> Simply being a consumer does not entitle you to the "best" or even > a "fair" deal. It entitles you to the deal of your choice. Nothing more > and nothing less.
One could even argue that taking money away from the ignorant and weak is an effective way of "improving" society somehow, sort of like predators who eat the sick and slow herd animals. Maybe it encourages many Larrys to learn a bit about the world; whereas additional legislation just seems to create other problems...
> Simple, because being an American is about choice and freedom. > Ignorance does not excuse your from your freedom to spend your > dollars on what you want, when, you want, where you want, regardless > of "is it a good deal?"
Your post is so good it deserves another reply... I think I see your point and I agree. However, the fact is that society looks down on those who enrich themselves at the expense of the group. It is quite normal to "help" the weak along, get them up to speed with the rest of the group. If the salesman really wanted to "help" Larry and Linda Laydown, he'd explain how they can get out of the dealership with $2000 gross on the deal instead of $9000. That would be truly helping them. But taking $9000 from them when $2000 would be acceptable to the dealership, that's exploitation, and your reputation in society will never be whole.
Ok, I'm brand new here......and I have an appointment tomorrow morning with a salesman at a dealership. I'm looking at a new 07 PT Cruiser. On the web the base price is 14plus, to 15,000 bucks, with sites saying "target" is $14,444. I'm looking at the base model....no frills. Here at the end of the year, I'm expecting a deal. How much less than target do I offer without making the salesman angry? Is there an acceptable percentage......like antiques and 15%?! I really need the best deal I can get. Any suggestions appreciated.
Why don't you look over these vehicles and pricing comparisons. You can see the details of each vehicle as to what is included, the MSRP, the invoice, and what at least one dealership is willing to sell them for (about 300 under invoice, with only 100 doc fee).
EDIT>>> Sorry, I just reread your note and realized you were looking at a leftover 07 cruiser, as opposed to an 08. You'll have to reduce your offer to compensate for a 1 year old vehicle. Recognize as soon as you drive it off the lot, it becomes a low mileage used car, and if you are hypothetically in an accident in 100 miles and the car is totalled out (and you are okay of course because of the airbags)....your insurance company will give you substantially less money since it is a year old vehicle. You can contact your insurance company to get their numbers, or look on Edmunds/internet for tradein values for the two vehicle years.
This argument is ridiculous. The MSRP is there for a reason. It's a starting point. If someone chooses to pay that, that's their perogative.
If you walk into a furniture store and order a dining room set, you expect the salesperson to tell you what his cost is and then charge you marginally over it? What kind of business is that?
Let's say you owned that furniture shop. How long do you think you would employ a salesperson like that? Would you want someone giving away all your profit constantly?
The consumer is in charge. He holds the money. Noone is forcing anyone to purchase anything. I see no reason to expect that a salesman would run around "educating" everyone about what prices should be acceptable to the consumer. Frankly, the consumer wouldn't believe us. Each person is expected to act in their own best interests.
You guys sound like you want everyone to walk around holding your hands and showing you the best way to save money! That's what Clark Howard and Oprah are there to do.
Obviously, you have never been successful in sales if your mentality is to give away all your profit to every customer. So, you're unhappy with the system. Deal with it, because it's not changing. It's in place because it works. People WANT to negotiate on high ticket items and you should be happy that you can. Otherwards, you would ALL be paying $9,000 profit instead of $2,000.
moo; you might as well save your fingers from replying to the numbers guy, he (or she) has an answer for everything (and personally, I think just leading you on)!! I think this poster used to be on this forum before under another moniker!!!!
Fair enough. I suppose I'll let the dead horse just lay there. The thinking behind what he is saying just seems very narrowminded and extremely unrealistic in real world application.
Again, this person is OFFERING $500. The seller is not ASKING for it. That's the difference.
Its a very inconsequential difference, but fine. Then let's throw in a "buy it now" figure on that auction of $500. The starting bid is $300, the BIN is $500, and the fair market value is $400. So the idiot comes along (as often happens on Ebay) and clicks Buy It Now. You feel that is totally unacceptable and you would refund the $100 to that person? If you say yes, I can't help but think you are fibbing.
And, really, I don't see how that is any different than my previous scenario without the Buy It Now. The selling price wound up $100 over market value in both cases.
And I have had this happen recently to me, by the way. I put a laptop up there and it was bid way over fair market value, but who am I to tell the person they overpaid??
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
(Had to go the manager myself to get my keys back, they were playing games with holding on to my keys, to keep me from leaving).
Ah, man, if there is anything that gets me all uppity that’s it. I thought this type of behavior went out in the 70’s or 80’s. It happened to me when I was buying in late 67’ (new model 68’s were being introduced in Oct. or Nov.). I’ve told this tale a time or two but since I wasn’t talking at you, I’ll provide a brief synopsis so as not to bore the regulars.
I was trading in my 66’ Bonneville and when I couldn’t get the deal I wanted where I bought the 66’, I went to another Pontiac dealer. Yikes, numbers were even worse so I ask for my keys. The salesman said, “You won’t need your keys because you’ll be driving out of here in a new car tonight”. I knew I wouldn’t be so I asked again, politely, for my keys; same response. So, I jumped out of my chair so fast that the chair shot backwards, hit the edge of a carpet runner on the tile floor, fell over making some noise, as I proceeded around to the salesman’s side of the desk. This guy was pretty good (he must have done this before) because by the time I arrived at his side of the desk he had the keys out of the desk, in his hands, saying, “Here’s you keys, you don’t have to be such a hot-head about it”.
The part of this tale that really hurts is that Mrs. jmonroe (we were only married a few month at the time and this is where the tale got even longer) agreed with him. :surprise: To this day I don’t think I was a hot-head because a hot-head would have gone over the desk not around it.
You just hadda bring this up, didn’t ya? :mad:
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
And I have had this happen recently to me, by the way. I put a laptop up there and it was bid way over fair market value, but who am I to tell the person they overpaid??
Ah oh. I'm sharpening my pencil right now so I can count all the posts you're going to get about this one? :confuse:
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Ah, man, if there is anything that gets me all uppity that’s it. I thought this type of behavior went out in the 70’s or 80’s.
I'm with you about getting my fur up when this happens. But I've got news for ya. I wasn't even car shopping in the 70s or 80s. I had this happen as recently as April 2003 at a Honda dealer! I finally went up to the magical desk where all the salespeople report, peeked over the edge, spotted my keys and grabbed them.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
"I'm expecting a deal. How much less than target do I offer without making the salesman angry?"
Well, you're sounding like a victim already. If you are expecting them to just offer you a deal, then you need to read previous posts. Be assured that the salesman isn't afraid to risk making you angry. The best way to get a deal, is to be an informed buyer. Know what the vehicle costs the dealer including shipping etc. Then decide how much you wish to add for his profit. Make your offer and stick to it. If it isn't accepted at multiple dealers, go home and rethink it in a calmer moment. Beware of dealer add-ons - advertising fees, excessive document fees etc. Don't accept them. Everything is negotiable. How much to offer? Again, read previous posts. There are examples there.
Had to go the manager myself to get my keys back, they were playing games with holding on to my keys, to keep me from leaving).
When I am working ( negotiating ) a deal with a customer. I ussually leave keys with the desk ( the mngrs desk ) .
The main reason I do it is because I let them look at the trade while I test drive a vehicle and I forget about them when I het back.
But also if someone wants to leave all they have to do is ask for them and I would be happy to get them for someone.
Sometimes though if people don't get the deal they are looking for they may think I am keeping their keys at the desk to stop them from leaving and I have had people state that is the reason. But it is not. Ussualy if the person is thinking that they are ussualy upset and that could be for many reasons. Maybe i might have offended them who knows :mad:
"This argument is ridiculous. The MSRP is there for a reason. It's a starting point. If someone chooses to pay that, that's their perogative."
But if you lead him to believe that is his only option, just maybe that's exploitation.
"I see no reason to expect that a salesman would run around "educating" everyone about what prices should be acceptable to the consumer."
What was said was "if you really wanted to help the customer...." Apparently you would much rather help yourself, judging by your posts, and that's your choice. Maybe even the way it's supposed to work.
Look, those who have been around for awhile know how it works. But if someone comes in without a clue, first time buyer, nice person vs a dodo, I would think that a salesperson would give him a fair shake and help him understand the process a bit. I would think that a customer like this would be forever grateful and come back to you again and again. We have a few salespeople here like that. Been in the business for like 40 years. They don't have to beat the bushes or stand out in the que line in front of the building waiting for the next 'customer' to drive in, looking like a bunch of vultures. People come in and ask for them. It sounds like you would go the other route.
"Then let's throw in a "buy it now" figure on that auction of $500. The starting bid is $300, the BIN is $500, and the fair market value is $400. So the idiot comes along (as often happens on Ebay) and clicks Buy It Now. You feel that is totally unacceptable and you would refund the $100 to that person? If you say yes, I can't help but think you are fibbing."
If the Buy it Now is the only price, that's one thing, but if the starting bid is $300, that's another. If someone chooses the BIN #, they are probably the same guy that stands in line all night to get the latest gadget. He wants it NOW and is willing to pay for it. He chooses to do that rather than bid and chance losing it, which has been presented as an option. In either case, there is no high pressured salesman trying to lead him.
Apparently you would much rather help yourself, judging by your posts, and that's your choice.
Why don't the customers all come in and pay sticker so that they are looking out for the best interests of their salespeople? I'll answer this one for you. Because they are interested in their own best interests, as is everyone.
Ok, so you have salespeople in your business. Would you be pleased if they constatly gave your profit away? Giving "feel good" discounts are done all the time, especially when you know you have a player. Those are very situational sorts of events. Good salespeople know when to do these sorts of things.
I think we're muddying the water though. Let's stick with the original question. Is it moral for dealerships to ask for all the profit? It offends you I guess. So you can go to another dealer and purchase. Instead, you decided to purchase from this 'immoral' dealership. This is what confuses me the most. If it really is an issue for you, why did you purchase?
I just can't find the logic here. They were immoral and yet you chose to purchase. You think that all salespeople should tell people what the "Best" deal is on a particular product. Yet you found a great deal on your own.
"Mr. Customer, I undertand that you want to pay $5 for this widget. However, the market is only bearing $2."
Incidentally, what do you do for a living. Maybe that will help to put this in perspective. Or am I wasting my time?
"Giving "feel good" discounts are done all the time, especially when you know you have a player. Those are very situational sorts of events. Good salespeople know when to do these sorts of things."
Interpretation: Screw em if you can?
"Instead, you decided to purchase from this 'immoral' dealership. This is what confuses me the most. If it really is an issue for you, why did you purchase?"
Because of what you said in the previous statement. "Giving "feel good" discounts are done all the time, good salespeople know when to do these sorts of things." You and I understand the game that is being played. I kinda like dealing with guys like you. For me, there is a fun factor too, and I think when it's all said and done, the sales person has had fun too, if not a huge profit, because we challenge each other. My concern is the lamb being led to the slaughter.
What do I do for a living? Nothing. I took a very early retirement. And I had started with nothing. I worked in design and development of a premier company in the computer industry. My wife stayed home to raise the kids as we felt that was important. Single income. Single retirement, except for a small amount that she gets, which will be completely absorbed by the cost of health benefits. No Medicare.
See, I knew what the trade off would be. If I wanted things on a single income, I had to be really smart about what I paid for things. I saved until I could pay cash. (Novel idea, eh? I wonder where it went?) I knew I couldn't afford to pay someone else to use (rent?) their money when I could use restraint for a short period of time until I built up my savings account, during which time I was being paid for them renting my money from me. The other way made no sense to me.
Before that, I had the latest and fastest cars and motorcycles and raced at the drag strip. Young and foolish, but great memories. Then I got married, had kids and responsibilities. Something had to change. That meant I had to get smart fast.
I bought used things where I could. I also had high end audio equipment, but I bought it at cost in trade for taking people on 200 mile trips to his dealership after hours on my own time. Kinda like a barter arrangement, or a win/win. Other times, we would just hang a Closed sign on the door, order pizza and beer, then just sit and play with all that high end equipment til the wee hours of the morning, and I could borrow any piece that I wanted to. I had a similar arrangement with a snowmobile dealer, and raced the product. Business and pleasure combined, but no dealer headaches. I could have worked on commission. I chose not to, but to help a friend who had treated me right. We trusted each other from the beginning. I didn't know him before I went to his store. We made the arreangement the first night.
See, if I bought right, I could own a product at almost no cost, but I paid with my time. Then I took any money I saved and could spare into the stock market. I started out with a broker until I learned how to do it myself, and that was many years ago. I did much better on my own, and now, I could live just fine without my pension.
Operating this way is definitely not the norm, but I needed something that worked for me, so this is how I did it. Not for everyone, but everyone could use bits and pieces. It also requires self disipline and patience.
Does that answer your question and give you some insight? Other than selling cars, what is your age group and other experiences? Education? You seem like an intelligent fellow.
That's a little dramatic. If by "screw" you mean make as much money as possible, then yes.
For me, there is a fun factor too, and I think when it's all said and done, the sales person has had fun too, if not a huge profit, because we challenge each other.
Agreed, there are times that the negotiations can be fun. They never are fun if there is hostility. I find none of that at the Porsche store. I'm sure I will run into someone who is, but nothing like the Nissan/Honda days.
My concern is the lamb being led to the slaughter.
I understand that you are concerned about people being exploited. They will be. Certain people will be ignorant and someone will lie to them just to make a deal. The vast majority of people know enough about negotiations to make at least an attempt. Good things happen and bad things happen. I just don't think that my asking for profit falls under the exploitation field.
Well, you've done well for yourself. But again, you didn't address my question... would you want your salespeople to give profit away if they did not need to? Those are 'nice guys' and they don't provide for their family and make lots of 'friends' in the business.
You and I know the reality of the situation. Salesman is there to make money. Consumer is there to save money. It always falls on the consumer to sign the paperwork though. This is not door to door sales where I push products on you when you're half corked in your bathrobe at 8:00pm.
You seem like an intelligent fellow.
Now you're just trying to butter me up. I went to school for a number of things, but the only one I stuck with was English/Lit. I couldn't get interested in anything else. Business was attractive to me, but once I got into the meat of things I found my head just didn't seem to wrap around the ideas. I guess you have to know your limitations.
I worked many years in the food service industry. The last thing I did before I got into car sales was running a Banquet Facility for a Maggiano's. I made sure the staff, guests, cooks, and I were all on the same page. If everyone had a good time and ate well, then we made money. That was a fun job at times.
My buddy told me that he was making a lot of money in the car business. So I decided to get out of the constant party of restaurant life. I tried it out and immediately took to it. My father is a salesman and had been telling me to get involved in it. Apparently, he saw the knack for it within me.
The rest is history. I've sold for almost 5 years now and never really looked back.
I feel like I'm writing "What I Did Over Summer Break".
Someone who has a bunch of numerals in their name thinks that it's unethical to ask for MRSP and offer below book on a trade. That's the discussion at hand.
"I just don't think that my asking for profit falls under the exploitation field."
I agree if you keep the word 'excessive' out of it. So you sell Porsches? A boxster found it's way to the top of my list a few years ago. Doubt if you and I could deal though. ;-) That's kind of like selling high end audio. You can pretty well hold the price.
If you're looking for a Porsche Boxster deal, then now is the time. We've got a contest going where I can potentially go to the Super Bowl. That means we can make a win/win deal. You can save a bunch of money and I can go have some fun.
That's only through the end of the month though. Want to put a deal together?
This argument is ridiculous. The MSRP is there for a reason. It's a starting point. If someone chooses to pay that, that's their perogative.
You mean the Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price is a start for retail sales negotiation? Novel concept. Hmm, so the suggested retail price is uh, um, suggestion. In lieu of a target price to start negotiations, I suppose what the manufacturer thinks it should sell for is a good starting point.
Ah, the old contest deal, eh? If I can get just one more sale......... Reminds me of the old Kirby salesman. ;-)
Well, like I said, I have loads of patience. What I'm looking for is a nice 2000 or newer, with under 40k for $15k. I like to squeeze the nickel till the buffalo craps. ;-) They're getting close if you study on it hard though. Remember, it's snowing up here and it ain't gonna stop for quite some time. Someone may not want to carry dead weight for that long in their inventory. And of course, we know that the price a dealer sells used for is directlt proportional to what he has in it. If he paid too much, you ain't gettin a deal. If he stole it, he can swing a deal and still make his profit.
But timing isn't the best, as I'm trying to pay off the AZ place. I HATE debt, and had none for 20 years years until I bought that. Not too many people pay cash for houses. But this one fell into my lap after a couple years of watching and understanding the market. Based on that, I was able to make the decision to buy sight unseen in 5 minutes when the opportunity presented itself. We have still to find something we like better anywhere near the price point. Puts a crimp in other toys though, although I do maintain an 'emergency' fund just in case the right deal comes along. The BMW 3 Series hardtop convert is a good alternative and probably makes more sense. That's on my list too. And of course, if Santa is listening, my favorite is the 6 Sreies. I LOVE the sound of thise pipes. Someone deserves a promotion for that sound.
$15k!! Wow, this will definitely be a tough one for me. I have a hard enough time getting under $40k on our pre-owned. We rarely have those in stock.
No matter, I'll wait till you pay off your AZ home and then we'll squeeze a new one into your budget. Amazing handling on these vehicles. We have sport exhaust for you as well. Sounds awesome!
The Porsche has a unique feel. The Boxster, anyway. Feels to me like it pivots in the middle, but I drove an older Toyota MR2, I believe, that didn't feel the same at all, even though it also had a mid engine layout.
Ever get out on the Road Atlanta course? That, I would love. Always felt I shoulda druv NASCAR. Usta do 360's on the street at speed when there was a bit of snow or sand. If the speed is high enough, you can pull out of it and keep on going. Wunna them natural highs, ya know. Have video to prove it too. Ya, I know. Not a nice thing to do.
it becomes a low mileage used car, and if you are hypothetically in an accident in 100 miles and the car is totalled out (and you are okay of course because of the airbags)....your insurance company will give you substantially less money since it is a year old vehicle. You can contact your insurance company to get their numbers, or look on Edmunds/internet for tradein values for the two vehicle years.
Many insurance companies including MetLife has a new policy where they pay out 100% of the purchase price of a NEW vehicle should it be totaled in the 1st year of purchase.
"Why did you blow $8 plus shipping when you can read it for free here?
Hey Moo, this guy might be an easy mark after all. "
Still don't know me, do ya? Who said I did that? I havd ordered copies of The Millionaire Next Door for like $7 including shipping though. That $8 shipping must be intended for guys like you. ;-) But MADE YA LOOK, MADE YA LOOK.
No, my intent, as always, is to give the other side of the coin for those interested in finding out what their options are, and maybe pointing to tools that they can use. That doesn't make me a bad boy does it? And, like someone pointed out, I kinda like to pull the chain of guys like MOO. All in fun though.
Hey, if you wanna have fun sometime. go out to a forum on the Simpsons. Then do a post saying "I'M AN ADULT AND I DON"T WATCH CARTOONS. O H M Y G O D !
I was called every name under the sun. We kept at it for about 45 minutes. Then I explained that I had a bit of time to waste, and thanked them for an enjoyable time. I'da been a dead man if they could have caught me. My Mommie always said I was kind of a trouble maker. But it IS so much fun. :-)
Comments
Yes, you can probably save a few busks buying on a cold, dreary, December day.
Good for you. This is all too typical. One dealer left us sitting in an upstairs room for 25 minutes. There were no other customers, almost 9 PM and we were 100 miles from home. They knew it. We walked too. I guess they 'read' us as really wanting the car, and the wait would make us anxious and agree to pay the price. Went right back to a previous dealer and paid just a bit more for a nicer car. Then, they had the gall and call the next day. Sorry, I told you I was looking at another one. You made the decision for me. Like I was going to drive another 200 miles after they pulled that.
My two cents is that whenever a dealer pulls the slightest crap it's time to head for the door because they'll have more than one trick up their sleeve.
Very well put donald.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The customer has the most important card in the deck, their checkbook. If they don't like the deal for whatever reason they should walk.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Did lax lending habits cause the housing boom or did the housing boom require lax lending habits?
Supply and demand? Demand goes down so does the price. If everyone was buying then the price would go up. Therefor cost wise slow times would be better. How much so I am not sure.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
That's what they are there for. I can't fault a salesman for trying to make maximum profit. You should be prepared before you go shopping.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
What a post! That last paragraph of yours is awesome. Let me repeat it for folks who didn't get it the first time.
Ignorance does not excuse your from your freedom to spend your dollars on what you want, when, you want, where you want, regardless of "is it a good deal?"
Very well put and thanks for your input.
-moo
Capitalism or not, you get pissed off at customers who attempt to take advantage of you by wasting your time driving three different cars and making stupid offers. And don’t tell me that you don’t get pissed off, because I have read your sales stories.
Why is it ok for you to get upset with obnoxious, arrogant customers, but when a salesman is obnoxious and arrogant, it’s just business?
Someone who has a bunch of numerals in their name thinks that it's unethical to ask for MRSP and offer below book on a trade. That's the discussion at hand.
-moo
I am responsible for knowing what I want, and how much I am willing to pay. Depending on who you are and what you are interested in, how much you are willing to pay may very. I visited the dealer, found a car, got a quote, and told him I would think about it. Its important to me to feel like I got a good deal so I did some research on Edmunds prices paid forum to and then used internet offers to get my price. I called the salesperson I worked with before and gave him my number to match.
I also researched interest rates and told the finance guy what I needed him to beat.
I ended up saving about $2000 from the original quote and about $4500 off the MSRP. I feel like I got a good deal, the salesperson seemed happy enough with it, and off I went.
I didn't expect the salesperson to tell me about top secret manufacturer to dealer incentives, and I think a lot of the cars were selling at MSRP anyway. His role was to find the car I was looking for, his role was not to be my buddy or my new best friend and tell me about all the secret deals. My role was to be an educated consumer.
The price a car (or a house, or a TV or a baseball card) sells for is the price the market will bear. If someone will pay 23.5 for that car, more power too them, but that finely crafted machine was only worth 19k to me. The dealer agreed.
HEY, that's different. ;-)
> to the premise that a consumer is "being taken advantage of" in today's
> retail economy.
Cool discussion. I think I understand your point, and it's well argued. I would say however that the Larry and Linda Laydowns *are* being exploited (I didn't say "taken advantage of"), just like forests, oil deposits, and furry creatures are exploited. And there are side effects of rampant exploitation of resources. Trust, for example, can be thought of as a natural resource, and if used up, the stores of tomorrow could become quite empty.
> Simply being a consumer does not entitle you to the "best" or even
> a "fair" deal. It entitles you to the deal of your choice. Nothing more
> and nothing less.
One could even argue that taking money away from the ignorant and weak is an effective way of "improving" society somehow, sort of like predators who eat the sick and slow herd animals. Maybe it encourages many Larrys to learn a bit about the world; whereas additional legislation just seems to create other problems...
> Ignorance does not excuse your from your freedom to spend your
> dollars on what you want, when, you want, where you want, regardless
> of "is it a good deal?"
Your post is so good it deserves another reply... I think I see your point and I agree. However, the fact is that society looks down on those who enrich themselves at the expense of the group. It is quite normal to "help" the weak along, get them up to speed with the rest of the group. If the salesman really wanted to "help" Larry and Linda Laydown, he'd explain how they can get out of the dealership with $2000 gross on the deal instead of $9000. That would be truly helping them. But taking $9000 from them when $2000 would be acceptable to the dealership, that's exploitation, and your reputation in society will never be whole.
Is there an acceptable percentage......like antiques and 15%?! I really need the best deal I can get. Any suggestions appreciated.
Why don't you look over these vehicles and pricing comparisons. You can see the details of each vehicle as to what is included, the MSRP, the invoice, and what at least one dealership is willing to sell them for (about 300 under invoice, with only 100 doc fee).
one of 5 PT's
main search page
Good luck, and enjoy your new vehicle.
EDIT>>> Sorry, I just reread your note and realized you were looking at a leftover 07 cruiser, as opposed to an 08. You'll have to reduce your offer to compensate for a 1 year old vehicle. Recognize as soon as you drive it off the lot, it becomes a low mileage used car, and if you are hypothetically in an accident in 100 miles and the car is totalled out (and you are okay of course because of the airbags)....your insurance company will give you substantially less money since it is a year old vehicle. You can contact your insurance company to get their numbers, or look on Edmunds/internet for tradein values for the two vehicle years.
If you walk into a furniture store and order a dining room set, you expect the salesperson to tell you what his cost is and then charge you marginally over it? What kind of business is that?
Let's say you owned that furniture shop. How long do you think you would employ a salesperson like that? Would you want someone giving away all your profit constantly?
The consumer is in charge. He holds the money. Noone is forcing anyone to purchase anything. I see no reason to expect that a salesman would run around "educating" everyone about what prices should be acceptable to the consumer. Frankly, the consumer wouldn't believe us. Each person is expected to act in their own best interests.
You guys sound like you want everyone to walk around holding your hands and showing you the best way to save money! That's what Clark Howard and Oprah are there to do.
Obviously, you have never been successful in sales if your mentality is to give away all your profit to every customer. So, you're unhappy with the system. Deal with it, because it's not changing. It's in place because it works. People WANT to negotiate on high ticket items and you should be happy that you can. Otherwards, you would ALL be paying $9,000 profit instead of $2,000.
-moo
-moo
Also I am looking at a Subaru for a family member, any insight on hold backs to those dealers would help.
Thanks
Its a very inconsequential difference, but fine. Then let's throw in a "buy it now" figure on that auction of $500. The starting bid is $300, the BIN is $500, and the fair market value is $400. So the idiot comes along (as often happens on Ebay) and clicks Buy It Now. You feel that is totally unacceptable and you would refund the $100 to that person? If you say yes, I can't help but think you are fibbing.
And, really, I don't see how that is any different than my previous scenario without the Buy It Now. The selling price wound up $100 over market value in both cases.
And I have had this happen recently to me, by the way. I put a laptop up there and it was bid way over fair market value, but who am I to tell the person they overpaid??
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Ah, man, if there is anything that gets me all uppity that’s it. I thought this type of behavior went out in the 70’s or 80’s. It happened to me when I was buying in late 67’ (new model 68’s were being introduced in Oct. or Nov.). I’ve told this tale a time or two but since I wasn’t talking at you, I’ll provide a brief synopsis so as not to bore the regulars.
I was trading in my 66’ Bonneville and when I couldn’t get the deal I wanted where I bought the 66’, I went to another Pontiac dealer. Yikes, numbers were even worse so I ask for my keys. The salesman said, “You won’t need your keys because you’ll be driving out of here in a new car tonight”. I knew I wouldn’t be so I asked again, politely, for my keys; same response. So, I jumped out of my chair so fast that the chair shot backwards, hit the edge of a carpet runner on the tile floor, fell over making some noise, as I proceeded around to the salesman’s side of the desk. This guy was pretty good (he must have done this before) because by the time I arrived at his side of the desk he had the keys out of the desk, in his hands, saying, “Here’s you keys, you don’t have to be such a hot-head about it”.
The part of this tale that really hurts is that Mrs. jmonroe (we were only married a few month at the time and this is where the tale got even longer) agreed with him. :surprise: To this day I don’t think I was a hot-head because a hot-head would have gone over the desk not around it.
You just hadda bring this up, didn’t ya? :mad:
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Ah oh. I'm sharpening my pencil right now so I can count all the posts you're going to get about this one? :confuse:
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I'm with you about getting my fur up when this happens. But I've got news for ya. I wasn't even car shopping in the 70s or 80s. I had this happen as recently as April 2003 at a Honda dealer! I finally went up to the magical desk where all the salespeople report, peeked over the edge, spotted my keys and grabbed them.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Well, you're sounding like a victim already. If you are expecting them to just offer you a deal, then you need to read previous posts. Be assured that the salesman isn't afraid to risk making you angry. The best way to get a deal, is to be an informed buyer. Know what the vehicle costs the dealer including shipping etc. Then decide how much you wish to add for his profit. Make your offer and stick to it. If it isn't accepted at multiple dealers, go home and rethink it in a calmer moment. Beware of dealer add-ons - advertising fees, excessive document fees etc. Don't accept them. Everything is negotiable. How much to offer? Again, read previous posts. There are examples there.
When I am working ( negotiating ) a deal with a customer. I ussually leave keys with the desk ( the mngrs desk ) .
The main reason I do it is because I let them look at the trade while I test drive a vehicle and I forget about them when I het back.
But also if someone wants to leave all they have to do is ask for them and I would be happy to get them for someone.
Sometimes though if people don't get the deal they are looking for they may think I am keeping their keys at the desk to stop them from leaving and I have had people state that is the reason. But it is not. Ussualy if the person is thinking that they are ussualy upset and that could be for many reasons. Maybe i might have offended them who knows :mad:
GP
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But if you lead him to believe that is his only option, just maybe that's exploitation.
"I see no reason to expect that a salesman would run around "educating" everyone about what prices should be acceptable to the consumer."
What was said was "if you really wanted to help the customer...." Apparently you would much rather help yourself, judging by your posts, and that's your choice. Maybe even the way it's supposed to work.
Look, those who have been around for awhile know how it works. But if someone comes in without a clue, first time buyer, nice person vs a dodo, I would think that a salesperson would give him a fair shake and help him understand the process a bit. I would think that a customer like this would be forever grateful and come back to you again and again. We have a few salespeople here like that. Been in the business for like 40 years. They don't have to beat the bushes or stand out in the que line in front of the building waiting for the next 'customer' to drive in, looking like a bunch of vultures. People come in and ask for them. It sounds like you would go the other route.
If the Buy it Now is the only price, that's one thing, but if the starting bid is $300, that's another. If someone chooses the BIN #, they are probably the same guy that stands in line all night to get the latest gadget. He wants it NOW and is willing to pay for it. He chooses to do that rather than bid and chance losing it, which has been presented as an option. In either case, there is no high pressured salesman trying to lead him.
Why don't the customers all come in and pay sticker so that they are looking out for the best interests of their salespeople? I'll answer this one for you. Because they are interested in their own best interests, as is everyone.
Ok, so you have salespeople in your business. Would you be pleased if they constatly gave your profit away? Giving "feel good" discounts are done all the time, especially when you know you have a player. Those are very situational sorts of events. Good salespeople know when to do these sorts of things.
I think we're muddying the water though. Let's stick with the original question. Is it moral for dealerships to ask for all the profit? It offends you I guess. So you can go to another dealer and purchase. Instead, you decided to purchase from this 'immoral' dealership. This is what confuses me the most. If it really is an issue for you, why did you purchase?
I just can't find the logic here. They were immoral and yet you chose to purchase. You think that all salespeople should tell people what the "Best" deal is on a particular product. Yet you found a great deal on your own.
"Mr. Customer, I undertand that you want to pay $5 for this widget. However, the market is only bearing $2."
Incidentally, what do you do for a living. Maybe that will help to put this in perspective. Or am I wasting my time?
-moo
Interpretation: Screw em if you can?
"Instead, you decided to purchase from this 'immoral' dealership. This is what confuses me the most. If it really is an issue for you, why did you purchase?"
Because of what you said in the previous statement. "Giving "feel good" discounts are done all the time, good salespeople know when to do these sorts of things."
You and I understand the game that is being played. I kinda like dealing with guys like you. For me, there is a fun factor too, and I think when it's all said and done, the sales person has had fun too, if not a huge profit, because we challenge each other. My concern is the lamb being led to the slaughter.
What do I do for a living? Nothing. I took a very early retirement. And I had started with nothing. I worked in design and development of a premier company in the computer industry. My wife stayed home to raise the kids as we felt that was important. Single income. Single retirement, except for a small amount that she gets, which will be completely absorbed by the cost of health benefits. No Medicare.
See, I knew what the trade off would be. If I wanted things on a single income, I had to be really smart about what I paid for things. I saved until I could pay cash. (Novel idea, eh? I wonder where it went?) I knew I couldn't afford to pay someone else to use (rent?) their money when I could use restraint for a short period of time until I built up my savings account, during which time I was being paid for them renting my money from me. The other way made no sense to me.
Before that, I had the latest and fastest cars and motorcycles and raced at the drag strip. Young and foolish, but great memories. Then I got married, had kids and responsibilities. Something had to change. That meant I had to get smart fast.
I bought used things where I could. I also had high end audio equipment, but I bought it at cost in trade for taking people on 200 mile trips to his dealership after hours on my own time. Kinda like a barter arrangement, or a win/win. Other times, we would just hang a Closed sign on the door, order pizza and beer, then just sit and play with all that high end equipment til the wee hours of the morning, and I could borrow any piece that I wanted to. I had a similar arrangement with a snowmobile dealer, and raced the product. Business and pleasure combined, but no dealer headaches. I could have worked on commission. I chose not to, but to help a friend who had treated me right. We trusted each other from the beginning. I didn't know him before I went to his store. We made the arreangement the first night.
See, if I bought right, I could own a product at almost no cost, but I paid with my time. Then I took any money I saved and could spare into the stock market. I started out with a broker until I learned how to do it myself, and that was many years ago. I did much better on my own, and now, I could live just fine without my pension.
Operating this way is definitely not the norm, but I needed something that worked for me, so this is how I did it. Not for everyone, but everyone could use bits and pieces. It also requires self disipline and patience.
Does that answer your question and give you some insight? Other than selling cars, what is your age group and other experiences? Education? You seem like an intelligent fellow.
That's a little dramatic. If by "screw" you mean make as much money as possible, then yes.
For me, there is a fun factor too, and I think when it's all said and done, the sales person has had fun too, if not a huge profit, because we challenge each other.
Agreed, there are times that the negotiations can be fun. They never are fun if there is hostility. I find none of that at the Porsche store. I'm sure I will run into someone who is, but nothing like the Nissan/Honda days.
My concern is the lamb being led to the slaughter.
I understand that you are concerned about people being exploited. They will be. Certain people will be ignorant and someone will lie to them just to make a deal. The vast majority of people know enough about negotiations to make at least an attempt. Good things happen and bad things happen. I just don't think that my asking for profit falls under the exploitation field.
Well, you've done well for yourself. But again, you didn't address my question... would you want your salespeople to give profit away if they did not need to? Those are 'nice guys' and they don't provide for their family and make lots of 'friends' in the business.
You and I know the reality of the situation. Salesman is there to make money. Consumer is there to save money. It always falls on the consumer to sign the paperwork though. This is not door to door sales where I push products on you when you're half corked in your bathrobe at 8:00pm.
You seem like an intelligent fellow.
Now you're just trying to butter me up.
I worked many years in the food service industry. The last thing I did before I got into car sales was running a Banquet Facility for a Maggiano's. I made sure the staff, guests, cooks, and I were all on the same page. If everyone had a good time and ate well, then we made money. That was a fun job at times.
My buddy told me that he was making a lot of money in the car business. So I decided to get out of the constant party of restaurant life. I tried it out and immediately took to it. My father is a salesman and had been telling me to get involved in it. Apparently, he saw the knack for it within me.
The rest is history. I've sold for almost 5 years now and never really looked back.
I feel like I'm writing "What I Did Over Summer Break".
-moo
I think it is a zip code in MN...
"I just don't think that my asking for profit falls under the exploitation field."
I agree if you keep the word 'excessive' out of it. So you sell Porsches? A boxster found it's way to the top of my list a few years ago. Doubt if you and I could deal though. ;-) That's kind of like selling high end audio. You can pretty well hold the price.
Nope. I had a 55 Chev into which I installed a 65 425 HP 396 CI engine. I just gave it to my daughter.
That's only through the end of the month though. Want to put a deal together?
-moo
You mean the Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price is a start for retail sales negotiation? Novel concept. Hmm, so the suggested retail price is uh, um, suggestion. In lieu of a target price to start negotiations, I suppose what the manufacturer thinks it should sell for is a good starting point.
Well, like I said, I have loads of patience. What I'm looking for is a nice 2000 or newer, with under 40k for $15k. I like to squeeze the nickel till the buffalo craps. ;-) They're getting close if you study on it hard though. Remember, it's snowing up here and it ain't gonna stop for quite some time. Someone may not want to carry dead weight for that long in their inventory. And of course, we know that the price a dealer sells used for is directlt proportional to what he has in it. If he paid too much, you ain't gettin a deal. If he stole it, he can swing a deal and still make his profit.
But timing isn't the best, as I'm trying to pay off the AZ place. I HATE debt, and had none for 20 years years until I bought that. Not too many people pay cash for houses. But this one fell into my lap after a couple years of watching and understanding the market. Based on that, I was able to make the decision to buy sight unseen in 5 minutes when the opportunity presented itself. We have still to find something we like better anywhere near the price point. Puts a crimp in other toys though, although I do maintain an 'emergency' fund just in case the right deal comes along. The BMW 3 Series hardtop convert is a good alternative and probably makes more sense. That's on my list too. And of course, if Santa is listening, my favorite is the 6 Sreies. I LOVE the sound of thise pipes. Someone deserves a promotion for that sound.
No matter, I'll wait till you pay off your AZ home and then we'll squeeze a new one into your budget. Amazing handling on these vehicles. We have sport exhaust for you as well. Sounds awesome!
-moo
http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying/articles/42962/page001.html
Then I Froogled it and found it for 8 bucks - used, of course, the way I like to buy. Words are the same.
Ever get out on the Road Atlanta course? That, I would love. Always felt I shoulda druv NASCAR. Usta do 360's on the street at speed when there was a bit of snow or sand. If the speed is high enough, you can pull out of it and keep on going. Wunna them natural highs, ya know. Have video to prove it too. Ya, I know. Not a nice thing to do.
Hey Moo, this guy might be an easy mark after all.
Many insurance companies including MetLife has a new policy where they pay out 100% of the purchase price of a NEW vehicle should it be totaled in the 1st year of purchase.
Hey Moo, this guy might be an easy mark after all.
Still don't know me, do ya? Who said I did that? I havd ordered copies of The Millionaire Next Door for like $7 including shipping though. That $8 shipping must be intended for guys like you. ;-) But MADE YA LOOK, MADE YA LOOK.
No, my intent, as always, is to give the other side of the coin for those interested in finding out what their options are, and maybe pointing to tools that they can use. That doesn't make me a bad boy does it? And, like someone pointed out, I kinda like to pull the chain of guys like MOO. All in fun though.
Hey, if you wanna have fun sometime. go out to a forum on the Simpsons. Then do a post saying "I'M AN ADULT AND I DON"T WATCH CARTOONS. O H M Y G O D !
I was called every name under the sun. We kept at it for about 45 minutes. Then I explained that I had a bit of time to waste, and thanked them for an enjoyable time. I'da been a dead man if they could have caught me. My Mommie always said I was kind of a trouble maker. But it IS so much fun. :-)
There's an article somewhere on this site that lists holdback for various manufacturers. Suggest you try a keyword search.