Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
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I am not going to pay $600-700 more. I don't have to buy a car as I can still continue to do what I do now--walk to and from school. It is a 15-20 minute walk. Having a car is a little better so I don't have hand-carry so many bags of groceries home from the store.
Basically, my final offer was $17 K. I'm now going to try to negotiate online.
Also, if you're dealing with Ohio stores, make sure you're on the same page on the subject of doc fees, typically $250 throughout the state.
To compare your price, see what fitzmall.com (in the DC area) is selling them for.
I see you're looking at an '08. Those are just hitting dealers lots.
May I suggest, since you're looking for a car you will keep for awhile, looking at an '07. There's a $750 rebate on them. You should be able to pick one up, with your options, somewhere in the $16.2-$16.3 range...well below your target price. To my knowledge, there's no major difference between the '07 and the '08.
I'm in OH. I know most of the Toyota dealers here. Which one(s) are you shopping?
Typically, resale on Corollas are very good. The$1,000 price swing between the '07 vs the '08 should make up for the difference in resale further down the road.
Let us know how it goes.
Where else do you shop where you pay for your items then are charged additional fees for the "bookkeeper" or secretary?
They used to be fees collected for title and registration. They have become out of hand (as much as $600). Now finance that and see how much you paid for the bookkeeper.
Stick to your guns. Dealers HAVE to sell cars. You do not have to buy from them.
the housing market comes to mind. If you have ever bought a house, there is a line for a documentation charge in your mortgage.
I got a lower price from one of the dealers through email for the same car that I looked at in person. I'm waiting to hear from the other dealership.
Don't sell yourself short. If you're paying for college, your time is actually worth -$X
Just kidding... welcome to the Forums.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
Don't buy at the first dealership. You will use them to find what the bottom line is. Though if they do If they meet your price, buy it..
Make sure they know you WILL buy today. Bring a title to the trade or a wad of DP cash. DO NOT say you are buying with cash. You can do that later in the finance office. In fact let them come up with a high interest rate. It doesn't matter because you will stay focused on the Out the Door price of the car at ALL times They may give you more off on the car if they think they are getting 4Pts on the interest rate. Then pay it off in the F&I office with pre-approved financing or a check.
Spend as MUCH time as possible in the dealership negotiating. Grind in reverse. They don't want to spend hours and NOT make the deal.Go three hours before closing and stay till after closing. Keep them close yet far. The longer you keep them occupied the more they want to close.YOUR TIME CAN BE WORTH HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS IN SAVINGS HERE. Theirs can be worth a deal or be for nothing. Take as much of their time up as possible.
Do not stay put in one of those little cubicles Wander about talk to OTHER customers. This makes them very nervous. Do this after the first couple hours.If you have a significant other you can use them to keep the clock running. She or he can question the color. Appear undecided about something small at opportune times.
Be ready willing and able to walk out and DO it. IF they let you go after 5 hours you will know what their bottom line is and be in a better position with ANOTHER dealer.
ALWAYS negotiate the OUT THE DOOR PRICE NOT payments.
Never INCLUDE any rebates or incentives in the negotiation. Thats YOUR gift from the manufacturer AFTER the negotiation on the price is DONE. Apply the rebate at the END of the deal or have them send you a check which you can apply later if you have pre arranged financing, Ignore screamer ads and screamer commercials. In fact I would pass on dealers who use those tactical and very very misleading ads. They say alot bout the culture of the dealership you will visit.
You don't see higher line or more sophisticated dealerships doing that. Its a successful ploy to get those who can least afford a new car to think they can "afford" one. These are vulture dealers. They will actually get loud and angry with you if you don't buy after 5 hours. LOL Expect it, smile and roll of the lot.
Do NOT pay doc fees unless they were a part of the out the door price YOU agreed to. Let them juggle the DOC fee numbers at the end. IF you cannot afford the payments they will make it so you can in all kinds of ways that WILL ALWAYS cost you MORE NOT LESS. READ the fine print. Take another hour and make the F&I guy read the BACK of the contract to you and explain it, They hate this but have to do it if you ask. Many times they wont even offer the EW and other usless crap they are so tired of you after that. LOL
Once you get your price your significant other can then wonder out loud how much you can get for the trade. MOER dealer time taken up.
DO not bring in the trade until the END of the deal after you reach a price especially if its paid off or you have equity. The F&I office is a good place to bring up the trade. Once you KNOW the OUT the door price of the car, you will know the ACTUAL CASH VALUE of your trade NO FUNNY numbers. You can spend another hour or two dealing it. Be ready to walk out if you do not get reasonable amount. Fair condition LOW BOOK is reasonable. YOU decide what your car is worth not them. It doesn't matter what you settled on in as far as the price of the car you are buying becasue the deal is only half done. You KNOW you can get that price anywhere.
Thats why it's important SHOP for a car BEFORE YOU NEED ONE. You have all the advantages of walking away, Their cars are worth less everyday buy a much larger margin then your 3 or 10 year old trade,
Many dealers will not want not work this way. They use the 4 square sheet and want to control everything. Tell them to rip up that sheet in front of you or you are leaving. This is YOUR deal. You control all aspects of it. FORGET PAYMENTS. You should already know what you can afford payment wise based on the OUT THE DOOR PRICE. If you don't find out before you go in.
Never forget they need to sell you don't need to buy.
Also you said the dealership rejected your offer, so go to the next toyota store, and then the next, and so on. if they all reject your offer, then your price is too low, so either think about the 07 model, or try a different car. Some other brands can get you a car thats just as good as the corrolla, with a price that you want.
Imagine that. Find a dealer that will sell at your price. Its done everyday by smart consumers. Smart dealers don't negotiate either. But then they miss all the Home Runs.
As people become smarter there will be more dealers who will post prices. Home Runs will be less and less. CarMax is successful and their prices are not all that great, The buying experience is wonderful though for many. I have no issue and ENJOY the dance with sales people. I would miss the non negotiating system.
you know why the experience is wonderful for many? cause its quicker than other dealerships. What takes the longest at a dealership? Working on price. If everyone just took the first offer from every other dealer, the buying experience would be just as good, except people would pay way too much like they do at carmax.
I am not a Carmax buyer. (I will sell a car there though as I have never received less then low Internet (KBB Edmunds) book for any car.)
People like me make it hard on salespeople. Yes. If the process we so smooth and painless the industry would not have the reputation it does. There would be no need for forums like these. Its you guys that make it harder. we are just fighting for our pocketbooks.Your sole mission and all of your "training is to get as much money as possible from us. That makes it kind of hard for the buyers. Ya Think?
The misleading advertising tactics, The hugely misleading and trick filled SCREAMING in your face radio and print Ads used for chum. You dont think its harder on the buyer when he realizes he cannot by that $15,000 car for $9995 EVER AFTER traveling to the dealership after calling them and being assured it is there and thats the price??????
Who's making it harder again??????
Dealers could give you bottom line in less then 30 minutes and let you walk. If ALL dealers did that yes it would not be hard. But every customer is a potential Home Run and they won't give that up.
have you ever sold cars? do you know me personally? how can you possibly know what my sole mission is?
yes, some dealerships use those false and misleading ads, but not all. you might want to do some research before you start using blanket statements and calling everyone out. The salespeople on these boards are not the ones working for the dealerships you have described.
I have no problem giving my customers the bottom line right off the bat, but then people such as yourself tell them that the price is too high, or that they should ask for another couple grand.
I work for an industry that is not liked, and i'm well aware of that. Yes, most people would rather have a root canal than buy a car. The salespeople on these boards are the good kind, they just want to help and to educate. You could learn alot from us.
Yeah, I agree with the time investment principle. I've been advocating this for years, could have saved these people at Edmunds a lot of money if they had listened to me. :shades: Most of the salesmen and regulars have said this is a bad strategy, as the buyer will usually be the one to get worn down and end up losing money. For a knowledgeable buyer though it will work.
Disagree though with the part about getting "chummy chummy" with the salesperson. The reason salespeople do this, other than good business practice, is to establish repore with the customer, get them to lower their guard in order to get a sale/higher price. One is much more likely to buy from someone they like. The same goes for the other side. The dealership is much more likely to give you a better deal if they like you. So, even if you have to fake it, have a friendly positive attitude. You can still negotiate hard. This would be like the reverse grind thing you were talking about.
While I don't have issues with "working" the salesperson, they really have little to do with the deal. You can spend an entire day with them if you want (and they agree to spend the time with you). But, they're much more likely to cut a skinny, cheap deal quickly, than they will after protracted negotiations. Offer them a quick sale for skinny money, they've got little time invested and more likely to do so. I respect how you negotiate. Just don't agree with your theory.
The best negtiation tools you have are your feet and checkbook. The more time you invest at the negotiation table, the less likely you are to walk. Dealership personnel aren't going anywhere. IF they want to waste time at the negotiation table for hours on end, that's up to them. If I'm a smart sales person, I'll want to make a quick deal to move on to my next customer and close another deal. If it takes "mini-money" to make the quick deal, they'd be much more willing to do it before there's a lot of time invested.
dang Edmunds spellcheck. :sick:
For the average novice buyer my method should not be attempted, but it sure worked for me. I knew my price was doable. I was probably a couple hours into the whole process(demo, test drive, negotiation)and I started to walk several times. Each time the salesmanager called me back to offer a better deal.
I do agree that for those wanting a fast, easy and relatively hassle free deal, a "skinny" offer would be the way to go. But, if you want a better deal (maybe a couple hundred to five more off) you'll have to work for it.
Wow we agree on something. We tell sales people all the time that if people invest some time with them they are more likely to buy from them then the guy who gave them the wham bam thank ya ma'm price.
i second this thought.
Negotiating a price and a trade are two separate deals. Consumer Reports advocates keeping them separate.
Plus sometimes you aren't sure whether you want to trade or sell privately. If you find a reasonable price for the trade, that might tip the balance. this is all part of negotiation.
'24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
Let us not forget that people like you make it hard on themselves.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
You can keep the two transactions separate without hiding it.
The only problem with this tactic is that you also have to invest you time to do it. So unless you are a loser with no life, family and/or friends then you lose something doing this. Really it doesn't save that much money, if any, over a well researched and planed buy pitch.
Another problem with long negotiations like this is that the one who makes the first mistake usually gets the short end of the stick. And since the salesman does this all the time guess who usually makes the first mistake.
For a knowledgeable buyer though it will work.
A knowledgeable buyer should be able to get the same deal with a lot less time invested.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Do you really expect someone to make a commitment to buy from you without knowing the price? :confuse:
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
But, there is a big difference in what I'm talking about, and the Joe Schmoe off the street who knows little about car buying that you are talking about.
But I really don't care what road we take in negotiations, as long as the road leads to a sale.
There are some people who need to be taken by the hand and guided through the process
There are some who are truly a pleasure to work with.
Then there are those who need there ego stroked and need to leave the place thinking they really stuck it to the ole car dealer and we just go ahead and let you think that you are so much better at buying a car every year or two then we are at selling 10 a day.
LOL. I'm not buying a car once a week. An extra hour or two every 4 or 5 years really is not going to make much difference in my family/friends time.
I expect you to answer one simple question:
"If we agree on the price, are you prepared to take delivery today"?
And I expect you to do what you say.
And I know that there still will be people that will lie, and for that reason I will not give you a written quote to take to another dealership.
"If we agree on the price, are you prepared to take delivery today"?
But thats not a commitment to buy from you. It may be a "conditional" commitment, but not a commitment.
And I know that there still will be people that will lie, and for that reason I will not give you a written quote to take to another dealership.
I don't work that way, if and when I comparison shop between dealers I never let any dealer know what someone else is offering me. If they say they can beat any deal then they can give me their lowest price, if it beats everyone else then they got it. If not then they cannot beat any deal.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Same here the only difference between you and me is that I will be driving out with my new car while you are still playing your games with your "fluff". Not only that but I will get as good a deal as, maybe even better than, you will.
I demand to be treated fairly and honestly
Please don't demand from others what you refuse to give others.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
And please don't feed the trolls.
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
But I really don't care what road we take in negotiations, as long as the road leads to a sale.
There are some people who need to be taken by the hand and guided through the process
There are some who are truly a pleasure to work with.
Then there are those who need there ego stroked and need to leave the place thinking they really stuck it to the ole car dealer and we just go ahead and let you think that you are so much better at buying a car every year or two then we are at selling 10 a day.
You want the old sled to complete the deal. Otherwise no deal. This has worked for me twice. Both times I did not walk, Yeah They did not like me blah blah but I GOT MY DEAL.
Another time they really low balled the trade and I ignored it until I "bought it back" in F&I. There were some real issues there. LOL
Very few dealers will give ACV on your trade at the outset WITHOUT YOU CHOOSING A CAR TO BUY......Now one SHOULD not have anything to fo with the other but in their eyes you take away another bush they can hide behind. Bring the trade in LAST.
Because the salesguy is selling 10 a day (lol) you HAVE to be on your toes. If you are that day they will sell only 9 (although I hardly believe most sales people do 300 cars a month See what I mean. Can't trust them)
There are book written on sales tactics. People need to realize car salesman are not your buddies. They have one purpose. That is to make as much on the deal as possible and grind you down till you submit. THATS the plan.
"TODAY" seems to be the word salesmen like to hear. But what if taking delivery today is not possible? Let's say I need a car in a color or with options not in dealer stock. How do I get the best deal when the car will most likely have to be ordered? I don't like to play games and I want to convey that I'm a serious, if somewhat particular, buyer.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Another time they really low balled the trade and I ignored it until I "bought it back" in F&I. There were some real issues there. LOL
Assuming from this writeup, that they packaged a deal with a trade, giving you a huge discount on the new vehicle, and undervalueing your trade. Then at F&I, you said ahhh heck, let me just keep my old trade.....sensing you had a super deal on the new.
If so, what was the outcome of this busted apart deal?
You and I accomplish the same thing, just in a different way. Research and using your feet is the key.
I know what number is doable. As do you. You prefer to take longer to get there than I do, however. If they don't accept my "doable" offer, I don't sit and negotiate until they do. I walk out.
That said, if it's a GM or Ford vehicle (and their subsidiaries), I use employee pricing since I qualify for them. That's price is lower than any other deal you can get and the doc fees are fixed.
I use the lowest price I find in the "Prices Paid" forums and run with those. My offers are OTD, fees, taxes, license, etc. If they balk, I walk. On my BMW, we only have 2 dealerships in my immediate area. They both balked at my offer (which was $250 less than the best price I'd seen here). Came home and waited a couple of hours. Got a call from the first dealership I contacted, and they ended up accepting the offer they originally let me walk from.
I was cross shopping a Lexus. They also only have two dealerships in my area. After making my offer at one, the salesman disappeared and never returned. Guess he didn't like my offer. The 2nd one kept calling me to come back to the dealership to negotiate more. I gave them their shot, originally. They dismissed it. I knew at that point that they only wanted to bump my offer. I wasn't interested.
If my original offer is dismissed, there's really nothing more to talk about with the dealership.
I go to at least 2 dealerships to shop my offer, usually 3 if I can.
The range of replies goes something like this....
Sales #1-GG we're close, if you could come up $200-$300 from your offer, I think we've got a deal.
GG-not interested (walk)
Sales #2-GG we can't sell the car for your offer
GG-Thanks for your time. I'll keep shopping (walk)
Sales #3-GG are you buying this car today at that price?
GG-yes! If you get me a decision in the next 5 minutes, we've got a deal
If my offer isn't accepted anywhere, I wait 24-48 hours for the phone calls. The ones that ask me to come back in for more negotiation, I don't bother with. The ones that say they've accepted my offer, I ask them to prep the car and set up a time for delivery.
I don't equate the amount of time spent at the negotiation table with any money saved. If I'm sitting at the negotiation table, I know the only thing the dealership wants to do is to bump me. I'm not interested in that.
I know exactly what I'm going to pay before I walk into the dealership.
Do you find those prices reliable? I have heard people say that those prices are lies, or leave out things like doc fees or taxes.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
For the model that I own ('07 Corolla LE), the prices that I have seen posted in the past 12 months are pretty consistent with what I have seen in the Chicago Tribune, Sun-Times and regional newspapers in this area. OTOH, Toyota pricing tends to be pretty consistent in many areas.
You can always PM the people who post to see where the car was purchased.
So, I can tell which cars might go for big discounts, which ones won't. I keep track of incentives on cars I might be interested in. Which ones are facing a redesigned new model announcement.
There's something to be said by shopping at the end of the month, when the dealership may be more motivated than at the beginning of the month to take a tiny deal.
I weigh a lot of factors with my offers. I have a lot of confidence in my numbers. That's why I'm willing to walk. The dealership may not like it very much. Or, they may let me walk on the offer (at least initially). But, if they know they've got a motivated buyer, they'd rather take a next to nothing deal than to miss out on an opportunity to move a unit...particularly one that won't take much time. Dealerships are built on moving volume. If you're sitting there with a sales person for an extended period of time, the opportunity for that salesperson to get to the next customer, to move another unit, dwindles.
If you're sitting at the negotiation table for a good while, the dealership knows the longer you sit there, the more committed you'll be to a deal. And, vice versa.
Just remember, the longer you're sitting there, the more you're being bumped.
I took lessons from my late father. He used to sit at the negotiation table for hours on end. He was a notorious grinder. It was bump, after bump after bump.
From that, I learned to just make your bottom line offer up front. Tell the dealership that's the amount you're willing to pay.
This was some years ago, but my father and I did a little experiment. He was in the market for a truck the same time I was. I did my research. He did his. We came to a number that we thought the trucks would sell for. He went to one dealership. I went to another.
The first dealership I went to rejected my offer. I left (with the salesman coming out the door asking me to come back in for more negotiation). The 2nd one I went to accepted my offer in about 5 minutes. I was driving my new truck home while my father was still at the negotiation table at his dealership.
Bottom iine? My father ended up paying $140 more for the same exact truck (save for color) I had just bought.
From that point forward, whenever my father was in the market, roles were reversed. He took me with him to buy his vehicles.
The Prices Paid forum sure helped us when we bought our Honda in 2005.
I would never have thought I could get a new Accord for $500 under invoice with no DOC fee. However, I saw that price in the forum, so we went to our local dealer and made that offer, and they accepted.
In case anyne wonders where I have been, we just got back from our vacation to Maine. Bar Harbor was very nice. We even stopped in Rowley MA to see where my ancestors settled in 1638.
Assuming from this writeup, that they packaged a deal with a trade, giving you a huge discount on the new vehicle, and under valuing your trade. Then at F&I, you said ahhh heck, let me just keep my old trade.....sensing you had a super deal on the new.
If so, what was the outcome of this busted apart deal?
They ditched it after trying to make it work. They were pretty upset but proved to me I should NEVER put the trade on top. Always bring it in after the price is negotiated on the car you choose. Then you will know exactly if you are getting REAL prices on new and the trade. It puts the pressure on the dealership to give you a fair price or lose the whole deal and 3 hours of their time.
Whats fair? Lets say no more then 10% below low fair/good book. I know used cars have a value. But the only "invoice" we have are KBB and Edmunds, NADA etc. Avg all three and you have a fair value no matter what the dealer claims. You are not selling at sub wholesale auction. They are.
Sell it privately or find a Carmax or a lot which sells ONLY later model used cars. Carmax and leak lots have always given me what I expected for my cars in writing forcing dealers to either pay or hold the deal till I get back with the cash, All three times they have paid for the car and not let me go. Leak lots offer more as well since they are not as inclined to seek or use auction prices and will more then likely sell it on their lot.
The point is
1. Do not offer a trade in at the outset.
2. Negotiate the price for the car you want to buy OUT THE DOOR, OUT THE DOOR, OUT THE DOOR,
3. Do NOT include the rebate in negotiations of the car price
4. THEN discuss financing and have a few sources.
5. Then bring in the trade as a down payment ONLY if you have equity
If you don't have equity in the trade all bets are off. You bought over your head and have no financial sense and will become fodder for the dealerships as they use the add on sticker with the $300 Scotch guard packages to roll over your excess into the new car. Poor decision.
6. Don't let your guard down in the F&I office. Your pockets will be picked there.
7. Pass on the Extended Warranty offered. You can get it at huge discounts from dealers across the country on the Internet and have a LONG time to do so.
8. ASK the F& I guy to read the back of the contract to you and explain ANY details you don't understand.
9. DO NOT take delivery before all work you requested is COMPLETE. Forget about the DUE BILL. Once the deal is done they will not be as inclined to do these things quickly.
A pending deal attracts a lot more "attention" from the salesman.
The DEAL IS NOT DONE UNTIL YOU TAKE DELIVERY (Wheels over the curb) NO MATTER WHAT YOU SIGNED OR VERBALLY AGREED TO.
10. When the Rebate comes, buy some nice accessories, enjoy it or use it to make your first few payments.
The Rebate is a "gift" from the manufacturer not the dealer.
In the future when they see you coming the deal will go much smoother and faster guaranteed. DO not become their "friends" They will in MANY cases, not all, use this to their advantage. With thousands of dollars on the line you don't need another "friend." Keep it strictly business. It's a business deal and a big one for most people. All chummy talk about family could could your better senses and weaken your negotiating interest,
Yeah... I like that one. I think when I fly down to Atlanta in a couple years to buy an Altima from crazymanmoo, I'll have that printed on a t-shirt. "YOU BALK... I WALK!!". :P
You have to establish yourself as a real buyer. If there is no trade and you have done your homework an easy and quick deal CAN be made. But that is not your choice. Its the dealer. Not many want to just move cars at "skinny". Not many salespeople would survive very long either.
Don't take up their time with GRINDING. You take up their time with other things like long test rides, Chat about features, insurance costs. you have to MAKE THEM have an INVESTMENT of time BEFORE you make an offer, Then you can make your offer after you have tried a few cars, called your bank or whatever, for an hour or so.
Walking in and making an "offer" will not get it done 9 of 10 times. Its not that simple. PURPOSELY.
Then 9 times out of 10 you haven't adequately researched the market and have walked in with an unreasonable offer.
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper