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'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
BUT, I have found some Taurii (looking for my brother recently) that, yes, were older ('93'ish) but with such low miles (60k-80k) and the V6. So I would probably take an 80k Taurus with a V6 over a 130k Saturn 4-cylinder. I could probably count on both for another 70k miles or so, but the Taurus is bigger, so that would tip the scales in its favor, for me.
But I am a big advocate of the Grand Marquis/Ford Crown Vic/Lincoln Towncar triplets. They are bulletproof and fairly inexpensive to repair. Problem is, ya gotta avoid the ones with the 5-digit odos because you will never know how many miles the car really has. So I think that means '95 or newer (i know the '96 shows 6 digits)? i'm not too sure when they made the switch.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
OK, just kidding but I do need some help understanding some numbers. Here's what I'm looking at:
2004 Honda Odyssey EX with leather and DVD, 24k miles - Certified Honda Pre-owned car
list $27,999
Edmunds.com figures:
Dealer Retail- $22,213
Expected Certified Vehicle Price - $24,465
Now, after some discussions (and with my edmunds.com printouts in hand), the dealer showed me some figures. At first, they tried to tell me that their cost was $26,999 and they would sell me it for $27,500. After I basically said the $24,465 was the price I was looking for, here is what I ended up with (these are figures that the dealer voluntarily showed me:
Retail price: $26,999
Dealer invoice: $22,500
Freight: $515
Base Invoice: $26,900
Certification cost/repairs: $675
G/L: $24,538
Dealer says he had to "buy" the car from Honda and his final cost was
$25,677.
Don't really see how he has to go out and "buy" a used car from Honda but whatever. I'm willing to overlook that.
He said he was willing to sell me the car for $25,800 and that he would settle for a small profit. Now I know that there is no way any dealership can stay in business based on only $133 profit. Therefore, there is no way the $25,677 was his cost. He first told me that it costs him $1000 just to have Honda certify the car...then he tells me it was ~$1500 for his garage to inspect and fix the car. When I asked to see what was done that it cost $1500, he showed me an invoice for $675 that included all repairs and Honda's certification cost. His answer was basically, but "you saw my check invoice to Honda for $25,677." All it was was a printout with no decipherable info other than a $25,677 figure on it.
Can someone explain what each of the figures means especially the G/L figure:
Retail price vs Base Invoice
Dealer invoice: $22,500
Freight (it was a lease that was turned in...why the freight charge?)
Base Invoice: $26,900
Certification cost/repairs: $675
G/L: $24,538 (what is G/L?)
Thanks in advance.
However.
What the dealer did was buy the car from "Honda Finance", or whatever the financial arm of Honda USA is called. It sounds like an off-lease unit, and they either get sold at auction, or the dealer they are turned in to can buy them (I think).
Either way, there's no "invoice" price, but there's the price that the dealer paid for the silly thing... and it's likely to be high, Odysseys being popular and all.
What the dealer paid for the car is not all that interesting; it's more important to know what it'll take to buy it and if its worth it. I think you have established that $24k ain't gonna do it. My next step would be to price out a similar NEW Odyssey and figure out if it isn't worth it to step up to new... which I suspect is the case. No idea what these go for; probably close to sticker, but there may be a little give.
If you can't save at least 25 cents/mile and $300/month by going the used route, buy it new and have done with it.
As far as the price, make an offer and leave. If they let you leave, the offer was too low and you'll have to come back with more money.
(This technique is known around here as "bobsting"; it has to do with car keys. Don't ask.)
Good luck,
-Mathias
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
It's either a good value to you or it's not!
As a customer, I wouldn't care what the dealer paid for the car and I wouldn't care about his tremendous overhead either!
Is my trade in value less because I got a $2000 discount, while someone else paid full MSRP for the same vehicle?
But it'll be like pulling teeth to get a dealer to take a loss on a car he overpaid on... in that sense, they are like anybody else. Who wants to admit he pulled a [non-permissible content removed]?
It gets worse when the car has been sitting for a while.
But "ask Terry" is the right idea; he can tell you what the car is worth, right now... for all the jalopies I've been involved in, he's always been within +- $300 or so. Which is quite remarkable.
-Mathias
After about 90-180 days when that car is STILL out on the lot ... with no offers ... dealers are generally more amenable to making a deal. On someone who is willing to take a less popular model.
And, yes, dealers often overpay for used cars and we take our losses from time to time. We stretch on the trade in order to make a deal and we stretch too much.
The shop finds unexpected repairs are needed etc.
I'm sure there are probably a few oddball states, so this is not a 100% catch-all answer: But in general, NO. A used, private party sale is 100% as-is, no matter whether it's stated "as-is" on a piece of paper or not. The only exception to that rule, would be if the seller specifically gave you a written warranty. In a private party, used-car transaction, the seller does not have to disclose anything, other than the odometer reading in most states.
Even the implied warranties such as "fitness for a particular purpose", which applies to used car dealers whether there is a written warranty or not, would NOT apply in a private party sale.
I'd say you have less than a 5% chance of recovering any money whatsoever. Small claims courts are informal and cheap, since both parties represent themselves, so you could always try that route...but I seriously doubt you would get a judgement in your favor.
I know that's not what you wanted to hear...but it's the truth.
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You missed the point. We're talking about a used car here. In the case of used cars, like I said, it doesn't matter what the dealer cost is. It only matters what the car is WORTH. Like you said in a later post, cost of transport, reconditioning, etc, doesn't matter, just like what the dealer paid at auction or trade time doesn't matter. All you can do is find out what similar cars are worth at auction and add money to that to arrive at a fair purchase price.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
On more than one occassion I had a salesperson tell me "we paid $xxx for this car, so i can't sell it to you for the price you are asking." My response is "it is not my fault you overpaid, so why should i be punished?"
Ultimately, no, I don't wind up with that car because, as you said, the dealership is not there to lose money. And they probably do find someone to pay more than I am willing to. That's fine with me. As long as I'm not the one paying that price, that's all that matters to me. There are plenty of cars out there and plenty of dealers who KNOW what they are doing and can make a profit on me when they buy their cars at the right market price.
Seems to me most buyers make their mistake when they think "i HAVE to have this car!" Then they overpay and are upset about it ... go figure.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
The ultimate goal in shopping for a car should not be to "minimize dealer profit"... It should be to "maximize your deal" relative to the prevailing market prices.
If you pay $1000 less than KBB/Edmunds value for a car at Dealer A who makes $500 on the deal, versus Dealer B who makes $2500 on the dealer, then you should be excited that you got a better deal than most people out there. You shouldn't be mad that the Dealer B makes $2500. You still got the same great deal!
Why be mad at the seller? To get a great deal and be pissed that it could have been better... now that's just greedy.
Say you go shopping for a TV at Circuit City and Best Buy. Best Buy has a great sale on the TV you want that is $50 cheaper than Circuit City. It turns out that Best Buy actually got the TV at a wholesale price that was $400 cheaper than Circuit City, so they're still making more money off of you than Circuit City would have.....
Would you be pissed at Best Buy? Of course not. You got your TV at Best Buy for a lower price than Circuit City.
That's a good point. (I'm not a car dealer, by the way). It seems like there is a prevailing theory that all car dealers are crooks, and any amount of profit they make over a hundred bucks or so, is considered outrageous.
To be fair, it's the crappy car dealer negotiating system that has inspired and prolongs this myth. As long as dealers continue to grind consumers for as much profit as possible (not just on the car, but on worthless insurance policies, window etching, $800 car "sealants", and stuff like that...), then consumers will always be wary of potentially paying way too much money.
Buying a house is much different. Yes, there is negotiating (and a lot of lying) involved. But you're talking about an asset that appreciates! Even if you pay full list price; your asset will increase in value over time, not decrease. So paying full list price is just a fond memory when you find that your house has increased 100K in value over a ten year period.
Cars are different. They go down in value. I for one feel like the entire system is broken, but I doubt that it'll ever get fixed, at least not for a long, long time. A simple, one fixed price strategy where a modest but fair profit is added to each vehicle would make life much more simple for everyone involved.
Just think...consumers wouldn't waste 6 or 8 (or 12) hours being worn down by over-zealous car salesman. And car salesman wouldn't gripe about their mangagers accepting every mini-deal under the sun. There would be a fair, take-it-or-leave-it price. I can't imagine this would ever happen.
We've bought new at a Dodge dealer and a GMC dealer, and both were reasonably good experiences. Not much hassle. But the one car buying experience that really stands out in my mind was Carmax. It was low-key, no-pressure, drive all the cars you want until you find the one you like. Don't want to buy today? No big deal. Come back when you feel like buying. I have NEVER been told that by a regular car dealership!
Generally speaking, auction prices tend to be lower than KBB or Edmunds. Personally, I find Edmunds prices to be a bit high, especially on the trade-in side. I've always believed that the "real" value of a car should be based on auction prices, since those are actually, real-live purchases and sales, while KBB and Edmunds are just a guide based on research.
However, there are some definite down sides to buying at an auction... You will almost always have repair and reconditioning costs. There's a reason why most of those cars are at the auction... because they couldn't find a home elsewhere. Plus, they may not know or disclose all that is wrong with the car. You might have to pay $500 in repairs, or you might have to pay $3000. That's a risk you take. There are also auction and transport fees you'll have to pay....
4D NADA=11,775 KBB=8,750
S NADA=12,050 KBB=9,450
SE NADA=14,325 KBB=10,600
SL NADA=12,975 KBB=10,600
In all cases KBB came in around $3,000 less...That's a pretty big difference. Are you saying that I could expect to pay a bit less than the KBB number? I was already expecting the auction & transport fees to be tacked on (my dealer friend let me know about those #'s ahead of time)
If your dealer friend can take you to the auction, he can pull up the Manheim website, and you can find out before you go... what your model car has been selling for the last couple of weeks at that auction and other Manheim auctions around the country..
You won't have to guess... you'll have a really good idea ahead of time... and, that should keep you from over-paying...
regards,
kyfdx
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But buying is another matter.
It's a question that's been "asked and answered":
steine13, "Purchasing Used Vehicles" #538, 12 Nov 2005 5:19 am
-Mathias
Most vehicles end up at the auctions sooner or later ... and none of it needs to be on the negative side, except for the dealer - example:
1.) The Benz dealer has 3 S500's sittin' on his lot and he needs to drop two of these cash cows for something cheaper and maybe buy something in the $20k range ..
2.) The local Ford dealer has 5 Exploders and will run 3 of them thru because of the high mileage and keep the 2 low milers ..
3.) The VW dealer will run his 2 Beetle converts thru because he's in Milwaukee and spring is still a few months away ..
4.) The local Dodge dealer in Florida will run his just traded 4x4's thru because they don't sell as well as the Dodge dealer in Pittsburg ....
Usually it's a $$ thing .......... :shades:
Terry.
Geographics is going to make a big difference .. the model, color, miles and type of vehicle is going to play into the value ....
Terry.
Terry.
So anyways, does anyone have experience buying cars at auctions like this? How do the prices the cars are sold for at auction compare to the trade-in values found on websites like KBB/NADA/ect? Do they come in right in the same ballpark as these trade-in #'s, Significantly lower than these trade-in #'s, significantly higher than these trade-in #'s? i just want to know what to expect.
However, as a means of actually getting to thoroughly examine a car and test drive it ... you will not have the opportunity to do so at the auction.
There ARE other ways to get at vehicles wholesale. This evening, I was purchasing new eyeglasses and noticed that the local Wells Fargo loan office was advertising vehicles at wholesae. The few prices that I saw were pretty reasonable for slightly used cars.
You and your friend better be doing ALL of your homework waaaay before you leave the house ... or you might be coming back with a ham sandwich with no mustard, it's maybe the largest auction in the country - it's always a toss-up between that and the FAAO (Florida Auto Auction) ....
You say you are interested in the Altima's ... that means you need to "grid" your potential purchases to even find em' ... cuz' there's going to be in and around 4,000/5,000+ vehicles running down 27+ lanes and your friend will look like a deer in the headlights after the first 10 minutes ...
1.) you need to have your friend pull every Altima that will be running that day that interests you .. and that includes the night before, because 1,500 vehicles can show up after 7pm ....
2.) then --- he'll need to pull a Carsmack on each and everyone and delete the "questionables" .... ya know, ones that have visited 4/5 states and/or visited 3 or 4 different "current" auctions, accidents, potential mileage roll-backs, double lease/purchase's, any buy-back's, any rentals (if it makes a difference), previous Canadian vehicle, any MBB's (manufacturers buy-back) and any vehicles that might show regional homelands like the countys in Louisiana, Texas, Mississippi, etc, etc ..
Now --- "let's say": he's got his "qualified" search down from 60 vehicles, down to 40 vehicles .... he now should "grid" the search, like a map .. this place is bigger than Big, it's HUGE .... 27+ lanes and it's very easy to get side-tracked and even lost, so he should know in what lane and what "run number" each vehicle is at, then he needs to find them ..... - it makes ALL the difference in the world, or don't even bother goin' ..l.o.l..
3.) you guys need to be there "at least" an hour before the first start (at least.!) ... he needs to physically find the vehicles ... some might be on lane 4, some over in 17, a few parked over in 25, some in lane 9 (get the picture.?) ... this way your friend can feel, touch and smell each and everyone of these "now existing" 40 vehicles ... ~now the grid tightens~ ... 6 might have super bad rubber - now he's down to 34 .. 8 might have some "hinky" paint - now he's down to 26 (let's hope he has an "Elco") .. 7 might have some ruff interior's - now he's down to 19 .. and 3 might be missing some stuff - now he's down to 16 .... and depending on the day and time, he might get outbidded on 9 of those - and that leaves you 7 ........... if you buy, make sure you spend the extra $90ish dollars and have the post-sale inspection done ..
Thats why it's soooo important to do your homework before you even go .. keep your eye on the ball and forget the other 5,000 cars and trucks, because you might be goin' home in a 59 Plymouth if you don't .... that's even *if* they allow you in and your not sitting in the cafeteria with the other 250 retired drivers .....
Terry. :shades:
I see why the dealers buyer needs to have his poop in a group.
With all the cars you buy at auction have you ever made a huge mistake ? I mean like missed flood damage,accident damage or just flat out way overpaid for a car.
I've made a few mistakes, believe me .l.o.l... but probably nothing major in the last 7/8 years .... I'm there to purchase 6, 8 maybe 10 vehicles, and sometimes I go home with -0- ........ but then again I don't see the 5,000/7,000 other vehicles that are there, I only see the 70 or the 90 that are on my list ... the others I go blind too ..
See, I don't buy anything that I don't have a history on, I don't buy anything I haven't had a chance to be in the trunk, seats and under the hood with - and I don't buy cars in the rain ....... have I missed a small paint spot or a cigarette burn waaay under the seat.? once in a great while ...... as far as price.? .. if ya get some crazy bidders there and they've jacked the prices, then they're on a mission, and I walk away to the next lane .l.o.l..
That said, I'll never walk away from a nice clean low-miler vehicle for a few hundred bucks ... of course, I know the market ...
Terry