Purchasing Used Vehicles

lolo1

Has anyone purchased a car from any of the rental car businesses? Namely, Enterprise car sales. My credit union ran this big blitz about this a couple of months ago and I am curious as to what type(s) of problem I would run into if I were to purchase a vehicle from here. The ad said that they certify all of their vehicles. And the mileage appear to be quite low for 06s and 05.

theflush

Cccompson, I agree,it is very difficult to find a car <100K miles for under $4K. I am willing to get one with even over 150K miles if it has been well maintained and is priced right.

In my search for a cheap, reliable, fuel efficient car, I have been focusing on Civics, Corollas/Prizms, Sentras, and Proteges. What other models should I consider?

Thanks,

suydam

American models with good reliability (there actually are a few): Buick Century, or a Saturn. You're looking at vehicles that depreciate the least. Just as an example, I see a Saturn and a Buick with under 100 k advertised around that price in Columbus, Ohio.

qbrozen

Difficult, yes, but not impossible. You just have to be patient and wait for the right deal.

Just a month or so ago, for instance, I found my brother a volvo with 99k miles for $1100. Yeah, its almost 20 years old, but its low miles, great shape, and did i say $1100! I was searching for about 3 months for something for him, though.

cccompson

If you can accept less MPG, higher mileage Camrys are pretty good buys in Central Ohio.

Mid and large size GM cars with the 3.8L motor usually get around 30 MPG on the road (my '92 Olds 98 will hit 32). Supply is plentiful though I would shoot for the miles not to exceed 100K.

kyfdx

Just my $0.02.. It may be that I've only rented from Enterprise at a local location, or through a body shop or service department, but every car they send me is pretty shabby... Maybe their airport cars are better..

If it were Hertz/Avis/Budget, then I wouldn't worry, but Enterprise? Not for me...

I'm sure we'll have some differing opinions, though..

jlawrence01

Would not hesitate to buy a car from Avis or Hertz AFTER IT IS INSPECTED BY MY MECHANIC if the price is right,

Enterprise does not generally take care of their vehicles as well, and I would pass.

socala4

Not so fast. Under California law, John was responsible for having the car smogged prior to selling it. CA DMV smog requirements:

The seller is required to provide the buyer with a valid smog inspection certification at the time of the sale or transfer. Smog certifications are good for 90 days from the date of issuance.

The inspection is not required on a transfer if a biennial smog certification was submitted to DMV within 90 days prior to the vehicle transfer date (a vehicle inspection report may be required for proof of certification).

Note: Smog certifications are not required for transfers that occur for any motor vehicle that is four or less model years old. A smog transfer fee will be collected from the new owner.

In practice, Roger might have a tough time getting you (er, I mean John) to play, but if I was him, I'd fail to file the liability release until it was sorted. Caveat emptor is nice, but obeying the smog laws is nicer, and if I was Roger, I would hold John to it if at all possible. (Then again, I wouldn't be Roger, because I would make sure that the car was smogged before I bought it, and I would have had my own inspection performed by my mechanic.)

By the way, if there is coolant in the oil, then the car probably needs a head gasket, not an engine rebuild. Depending upon the car, that should run on the south side of $500 for your run-of-the-mill set of wheels.

theflush

In my quest for a cheap fuel efficient car, I might have the opportunity to buy a 2000 Corolla CE 5spd with only 87,000 miles for $3500. It needs tires, alignment and an O2 sensor. This sound like a good deal to me. What say you experts out there?

cccompson

I'm not expert but if it otherwise checks out, it sounds like a fine buy.

kyfdx

Even with the high miles and the work needed, that sounds like a great deal..

(oops.. not an expert, though)

suvshopper4

Sounds good. Mostly.

But how do you know it needs only an O2 sensor?
Possibly someone has suggested that as a cheap-out excuse for something potentially more problematic (and expensive).

If that is all it needs to run right, why hasn't it already been replaced before the attempted sale?

Just my O2.

-ss4 (former shade-tree mechanic)

british_rover

Thats true the little cheapo code testers they have at autozone might say that the problem is related to an 02 sensor but that is not always the case.

For example even the advanced diagonistic equipment our techs have four Land Rovers can sometimes point them in the wrong direction or make errors.

The techs had a car that was showing a faulty O2 senor on the drivers side so they replaced it. They cleared the code drove the car and no issues. They gave the car back to the customer and the next day the check engine light came on again.

Brought it back still showed the O2 sensor was faulty. So they took it off and tested it again and the sensor was working fine. Checked out the whole wiring harness in that area an no problems. Just to be through they checked the passenger side O2 sensor and it was ok. Then they started checking the wiring harness on that side and they noticed a wire was pinched against the chassis.

It has pulled out of its loom and was rubbing against the frame causing a short from time to time.

They replaced the wiring harness and boom no problem anymore.

Now why did the fancy pants multi thousand dollar machine tell them that the wrong side of the engine was having a problem?

No, clue at all they think that maybe the short in the wiring harness was confusing the cars own onboard diagnostic computer and so the shop computer was getting bad information.

Just goes to show you can't trust even the best diagnostic system all of the time.

theflush

The sellers said they would like $4500 for the Corolla if they replace the tires, get an alignment, and get the sensor replaced, but that they would accept $3500 as-is and leave the repairs to the buyer. I'm pretty sure I can get the repairs done for less than $1,000, so it makes the as-is price more attractive if there are no bigger issues. It also turns out that it is a Corolla VE, not CE, and does not have power windows or locks, but I still think it is a good deal at that price. Thanks to everyone who cautioned about the sensor possibly being more significant than the buyer makes it out to be. This could possible be negotiating leverage.

cccompson

I don't know if that knowledge gives you any leverage because it sounds as though the seller is already hedging -tires, alignment, and O2 sensor will not cost $1000. Of course, the seller may be adding in the hassle factor of the repairs as well.

Bottom line here though is that it's hard to see how you could hurt on this one.

backy

Why not compromise? Tell the guy you'll pay actual cost for the sensor and alignment, plus some amount for his time. Then you can remove the risk from those two repairs and buy the tires you want.

theflush

I finally looked at the '00 Corolla VE. It turns out that the real reason that the seller has not made the needed repairs to the car is that they can not afford to. Seller still owes money on the car and is behind on the payments because of underemployment and just wants out of the car.

Seller says the car has been to the dealer for all the scheduled maintenance and that the car was at the dealer for routine maintenance when they told her that the "air sensor" is going bad and will need to be replaced soon and quoted her $450 to replace. Can you really tell that a sensor is going bad or is it an all or nothing type of device? I assume they meant mass air flow sensor. Any other guesses on what they meant and how hard and expensive is that really to replace. Isn't this a sensor that sometimes just needs its contacts cleaned to function properly? I will try to call the dealer who serviced the car and get more info on it.

Other than that, the biggest issue is that the seller is a smoker and the car will need to be steam cleaned to remove as much smoke smell as possible. I'll buy a drum of Febreeze after steam cleaning the seats and carpets. There was one smooth, shallow dent on the driver rear quarter that did not damage the paint and might be able to be pulled out. The engine started and ran smooth, as did the 5 speedd tranny. Since the car is 75 miles from my home, I was not able to take it to my mechanic for evaluation. I offered $3,000 which I think is low enough to cover any risks I am buying. The seller sort of accepted my offer, but needs to talk to Toyota finance to figure out how to work the closing to pay off their loan and get the title to me. It might be a few days before I know for sure that I am getting the car.

Thanks for everyone's valuable comments. I think I have found a good deal on a good work car.

Kirstie_H

If you can get this car for $3K, with a working transmission and engine, I think you've done remarkably well. I'd take that deal in a heartbeat, frankly.

Re: the smoke smell - I've purchased a smoked-in car before. It's nearly summer. Drive with the windows down, spray Fabreeze into the vents, change all of the filters, and you should get rid of most of the smell pretty quickly.

socala4

I don't know if this works, but I've heard that ground coffee can also be used to absorb odors. (I assume that you are supposed to use it as you would a carpet freshener by spreading it around throughout the interior, letting it absorb the smells, then vacuuming thoroughly.)

Again, I've not done this myself, so I can't vouch for the method, but it might be worth researching. If it does work, I assume that you can use the cheap stuff, Starbucks shouldn't be required...

jasmith52

Besides coffee grounds I've heard that if you spread fresh manure around that you'll hardly notice the smoke smell.

- Works every time

jasmith52

On a more serious note...

Engine coolant can cause an oxygen sensor to fail. The cause of the engine coolant at the oxygen sensor can be either a failing head gasket or a failing intake manifold gasket. Worst case would be a cracked block or cracked head.

So replacing the oxygen sensor may not fix the underlying problem. And it goes without saying that changing either the head gasket, the intake manifold gasket, the head or the block is not a trivial task.

Get you credit card out to pay for those repairs !

steine13

except that at nearly 8 years old and 100+ k miles, the o2 sensor is ready to fail.

coolant in the oil is not so easy to detect, but oil in the coolant will typically leave a film on top and a ring inthe reservoir that you can look for.

while you're at it, shine a small headlight into the oil filler opening and look to see how clean or varnished or (bad) blackened the valve train parts are.

Also, check the underside of the filler cap for buttery white gunk, indicating water... but it's tricky; SOME is normal if the car is driven short distances in the cold... none is really good.

If it checks out, buy it.

-Mathias
"Prizms R Us"

theflush

Thanks to jasmith52 and Mathias for the things to look at regarding the O2 sensor and water in the oil or vice versa. However, I think the issue is the MAF sensor not the O2 sensor. I will check for the symptons you pointed out before closing the deal, although I did not notice anything unusual the first time.

jlawrence01

It turns out that the real reason that the seller has not made the needed repairs to the car is that they can not afford to. Seller still owes money on the car and is behind on the payments because of underemployment and just wants out of the car.

That makes you wonder how long it has been since the car has been properly serviced. It sounds liek a car that I would take a pass on.

yogiowner

should i try to buy a used car at a clean car auction? i'm a first time car buyer, looking for a late model used honday, toyota, acura or lexus...what should i be aware of? my co-worker agreed to hook me up with a friend of his, who has a dealer's license...should i be skeptical?

Also, how do i find a reputable car dealer in new york city? they all seem extremely crooked....I want a 2005 camry se or xle, honda accord lx for $13k, acura tl or tsx or a lexus es300 equally reasonable....does that make sense?

steine13

Your question makes sense, yes, but your approach doesn't... it is obvious that you're new to this, and that's OK, but dealer-only auctions are not for amateurs. Even pros get body parts handed to them fairly regularly at these places, because you really have to know what to look for.

You also picked the cars that hold their values best, iow the cars that are least likely to be a good deal used. If you can get an '05 Camry "anything" for $13, buy it and buy three for me while you're at it. Step up to a new LE or a Honda LX for $500 behind invoice, and call it good.

just for laughs, here are some numbers from a recent auction ... i download these once a week and keep them handy...

Keep in mind the $250 auction fee, the transport cost -- unless you drive it home yourself -- and the $$ you have to pay your new friend.
IF you do it, have them do a $120 or whatever post-sale inspection, including mechanical and frame/body.

The smart thing to do is buy new. -Mathias

(doors) (trans) (HT=hardtop)
2002 HONDA ACCORD LX GOLD 4 4C Gas A CD EW Cloth HT 44025 $8900
2002 HONDA ACCORD LX BLACK 4 4C Gas A CD EW Cloth HT 42267 $12400
2002 HONDA ACCORD LX BLACK 4 4C Gas 5 CD EW Cloth HT 93931 $7200
2003 HONDA ACCORD LX SILVER 4 4C Gas A CD EW Cloth HT 81095 $9800
2003 HONDA ACCORD LX SILVER 4 4C Gas A CD EW Cloth HT 25201 $14400
2003 HONDA ACCORD LX GRAY 4 4C Gas A CD EW Cloth HT 46783 $13400
2003 HONDA ACCORD LX WHITE 4 4C Gas A CD EW Cloth HT 128291 $9000
2003 HONDA ACCORD LX BLACK 4 4C Gas 5 CD EW Cloth HT 38587 $12700
2003 HONDA ACCORD LX SILVER 4 4C Gas A CD EW Cloth HT 31091 $13800
2004 HONDA ACCORD LX GRAY 4 4C Gas A CD EW Cloth HT 10098 $16800
2004 HONDA ACCORD LX BLACK 4 4C Gas A CD EW Cloth HT 60083 $11800
2004 HONDA ACCORD LX SILVER 4 4C Gas A CD EW Cloth HT 44552 $14500
2004 HONDA ACCORD LX BLUE 4 4C Gas A CD EW Cloth HT 25291 $15000
2005 HONDA ACCORD LX GOLD 4 4C Gas A CD EW Cloth HT 5511 $17200
2005 HONDA ACCORD LX SILVER 4 4C Gas 5 CD EW Cloth HT 2855 $15700
2006 HONDA ACCORD LX BLACK 2 4C Gas A CD EW Cloth HT 5150 $17100

jasmith52

Mathias:

What site do you use to download auction prices ?

Would you supply a link please

steine13

I know a guy locally who lets me do this occasionally... dealers pay for access, and non-dealers can't get access afaik.

-Mathias

breld

I've read with great interest the last several pages of this thread, and thought I'd pose this question for the experts.

It seems that a lot of the folks seeking advice on used car purchases are looking for a "beater" or a good "second car". Basically, some cheap transportation. But my interest in the used car market is a little different.

I am very drawn to some of the newer AWD "luxury" cars, such as the Acura RL, Infiniti M35x, Lexus GS300 and the BMW 5-series. I'm also considering a BMW X5. The new price tag on any of these is a bit steep for my tastes, so I've been considering the used market for them. Obviously, there isn't too much out there yet with regard to the first four cars mentioned, but I've been checking out a few 2004-2005 X5's and have been very encouraged by what I've seen as far as pricing - $50k-$55k cars selling for high $30's to low $40's with 10-15k miles on them. Seems like a good way to go.

So, my question is this: Is there anything unique to a used car search in this segment? For instance -

Is a CPO the best way to go?
Should I stick with the same brand dealer (kind of goes along with the CPO thing)?
Any other pitfalls unique to these "luxury" brands?

Thanks for the help!

qbrozen

One basic tip I'll give you is to research your prices VERY carefully. Its tough to pay $500 over realistic value on a beater, but its easy to overpay by a couple of thousand on a high-end car and not realize it.

What I mean is, a dealer can easily (and often does) mark up a high-end car by $6k, and you wind up paying $5k over wholesale, which is just too much. Its a whole different ballgame compared to $3,000 beaters.

socala4

Any other pitfalls unique to these "luxury" brands?

The main pitfalls are that they are more expensive to fix when they break, and they are harder to sell privately if you plan on unloading them early, because they are more expensive and most of your private-party buyers will require a loan. A BMW without a warranty can be a frightening car to own...

I've not bought a car that was CPO'd, and honestly gave this little consideration, but I have to question the value of most of the alleged benefits aside from the warranty coverage. For example, even if the car has a 3,458-point inspection, I'm still going to crawl underneath it myself and have my own mechanic test it out, so the only real benefit that I can see is the warranty.

I guess the question that you have to ask yourself is whether the warranty and CPO label justify the premium that you will be expected to pay in order to get it. It strikes me that the premium is often significant enough to pay for some pretty substantial repairs, which makes me question its value.

steine13

I went to a dealer friend with a buddy of mine who thought he might could buy an Acura TL or Lexus ES used... and the dealer showed him auction results and convinced him that IF he wanted luxury, the best deal would be an Acural RL; since it was hardly more money than the "lesser" cars.

I don't know if that's still true with the newer AWD RL, but it may well be, seeing as how that market gets driven by image and people's impressions -- after all, nobody "needs" an Acura the way they "need" a Civic -- and that might be the way to go.

What I'm saying is: (i) find out what you want. (ii) research wholesale values for those cars; compare to new; see what makes sense.
THEN you're ready to worry about getting a good deal on a particular car.

I disagree with qbrozen that it's more difficult with high-end cars; he's right that nobody will let them go for $500 over wholesale, but $2k over should do it, and it is a small fraction of the price.

Another difference is that you own that car for the duration; with a $3k beater, there is always the possibility that the transmission croaks and you have to junk it... a different market indeed. Selling a used luxo car would be tough; make sure you'll like it for a few years.

-Mathias

cccompson

My two cents here is that the best way to go here is to try to buy from a private owner. Good deals can be had because it is difficult to sell a late model vehicles privately. It may be that the seller is going to trade or that s/he just got a company ride or whatever - they have a real incentive to deal. This works especially well where, as is apparently the case here, you're not in love with any particular model.

That said, run a Carfax and have anything under serious consideration inspected by a mechanic.

bigdveedubgirl

If you are looking at any Luxury car, I recommend going the CPO route. Audi has a great CPO plan, its is 6 year 100k from the original inservice date (first time sold). The inspection is very thorough (300+ point) and we give a copy of the full inspection report and a carfax report. Buying a CPO car is no more expensive, than buying one uncertified and slapping an extended service contract on it. We also, and other manufactuers offer financing incentives also.

I have had a client who grinded me so bad on a TT and we were $1500 dollars away on price, and he said he found a car that was cheaper Uncertified and I strongly advised him against it, telling him that if it was certified it sounded like a great deal, but uncertified, I was wary.

So this guy came here a week later, with all kinds of service issues (needed a timing chain among a laundry list) the car had extensive body work, and 3 different brand tires, that were not covered under the extended service contract he bought, but if it was certified, it would of been covered (not the timing chain, but during our inspection, if the timing chain/belt needs to be replaced or shows worn, it must be replaced before being sold) So this guy did not even save 1500 because he bought and extended warranty, and bought a car that AUDI would not have even certified and was looking at about 1200 dollars worth of work, that if he bought our car, it would have been covered.

british_rover

Exactly right once you start buying European makes that can be a little quirky you should make sure you buy the extended warranty from the manufacturer of the vehicle.

We see extended warranties for rovers that are aftermarket and just plain crappy. They barely cover any of the car and they sometimes have a limit to the hourly rate they will pay. Our hourly rate is between 75 and a 100 dollars an hour and if your extended warranty will only cover 50 dollars an hour you have to pay the rest.

yogiowner

Mathias,

Thanks for letting me know that i've been drinking too much (smile). I had hoped that this clean car auction was a good deal. Also, I've been offered the chance to deal with a wholesaler. However, what makes me uncomfortable is that I can't inspect the car before i buy it. apparently once the wholesaler locates what i tell him i want, i have to purchase the car.

it looks like i have to go to a dealer. how do i locate a reputable one? also, i can't afford to spend $26K on a new fully loaded car at the moment...

any more suggestions? and thanks again!!

steine13

i can't afford to spend $26K on a new fully loaded car

Twenty-six, eh? Camry LE's are advertised around here for $18 or so all day long.

And I've never heard the term "clean car auction" before.
These auctions don't give "great deals", they are where cars are sold at market value. And they are not for the faint of heart, nor are they for amateurs.

-Mathias

yogiowner

As you know, with toyotas once you add things to it, like additional safety features, etc., the price jumps up to near $24K including tax, tags and delivery...

anyone else out here have anything to add?

socala4

This just goes to show that it is important to inspect a used car carefully, even if it is a premium car.

A walkaround on the lot should have made it obvious that the tires were mismatched. And an inspection should have revealed these mechanical defects.

The CPO may or may not make sense, but if the cost differential needs to be considered to determine whether it is good value. It wouldn't be savvy to assume that CPO negates the need for due diligence.

breld

Thanks for all the responses. Very helpful info.

Regarding pricing, what is the best way to research what a fair price is on used cars? Using the X5 as an example, since there are several nice used ones out there, I've, not surprisingly, seen prices all across the board for seemingly similar vehicles. And, for the most part, very inflated prices from most dealers.

So, scanning local ads doesn't give a great feel, since you obviously don't know the real selling price.

So, I figured getting an idea of the trade value of the vehicle is a good way to start, then work up from there. But, of course, the "guides" available for such values are not terribly accurate and can differ quite a bit. The "Real World Trade" thread is a great source, though it seems as though responses are getting scarce there? Has Terry taken a break?

Another approach I've taken, particularly with very low mileage vehicles, is to start with a fair purchase price for a new one, and then deduct for the value of the mileage. Pretty subjective though - how much is, say, 5-10k miles worth? Deduct 10% perhaps?

What's the approach on a demo/"manager's" vehicle? I'm looking at a demo Infiniti M35x with 5,000 miles, $51k MSRP. Since there's really no "source" out there on such vehicles, how much of a discount is generally given for such demos?

Frankly, the used car marketplace fascinates me. Seems as though there are some real gems out there if you have the time and patience to look. It's sort of fun, like a treasure hunt, particularly when you're in no rush to find that gem.

breld

And regarding the CPO comments, I can see it both ways too. Generally, the extra warranty is really appealing, but it seems that, in some cases, great deals can be had on something like a BMW 530 being sold at the local Ford dealer. They're about ready to sell it wholesale to the local BMW dealer, and are happy to "unload" it with a little profit to a buyer.

I'm coming from mostly Acuras and Hondas, with a Toyota and Infiniti thrown in there. But I have to say I find the BMWs very appealing and they are at the top of my list, albeit with some reservations regarding reliability and maintenance. So, with the Beemer, I'm definitely drawn to a CPO vehicle, and am targeting the models which are at least in the middle of their cycle, if not toward the end, so they at least have had 2-3 model years to "work out bugs."

bigdveedubgirl

The only problem with that, is if you buy a Beemer from a Ford store, and lets say that the car looks pristine, but the has some issues that are not covered under warranty, that ford store, will most likely not fix them. We get used Audis come in from CarMax and many times to repair, what they tried to, but were not able to.

Because of the issues with the I-drive system, I would only buy a pre-owned beemer from a Bmw dealer.

As for the Infiniti, If it is a non registered (meaning it is not a technically used car) I would offer Invoice-holdback-.30cents permile. That is an aggressive starting point but a starting point none the less. If it is Used (registered) then I would start gathering some Auction data if possible. And with a grain of salt, visit the prices paid forum, And take in what sound reasonable and toss out what sounds rediculous.

jipster

What exactly does a wholeseller do?. Purchase vehicles at auction, then this price would be considered wholesale. How does trade-in value relate to wholesale? Thanks.

jjj31

Hello,

I just joined the site. I could not find how to start a fresh post so I replied to this one. I would like to start purchasing repossessed cars. I was wondering if anyone had any contacts/websites or suggestions on where to get started. I have found a couple of sites but not sure of the validity. Or if someone could direct to a forum in relation to this topic I would appreciate it.

backy

To create a new post, just scroll to the bottom of this screen, enter a title and your message, and press the "Post My Message" button.

magan

During a private sale, how can you be sure you get the bank held title?

magan

ridesafely.com
I have not purchased a vehicle thru them, registration is free.

magan

http://www.vb2.com/
This is a site where you can buy auction cars. I never have, registration is free. You can also track vehicles as they arrive.

cccompson

The best way to handle this is for the seller to order up the title from the bank with the actual sale transaction taking place right at the bank.

yogiowner

thanks! if dealers shop at auctions, i don't understand why i should be so afraid when i go with an expert mechanic..i know a number of people who have purchased a vehicle this way. ten years later, their cars are still running.

does anybody know how to find a decent auto dealer?