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Comments
Think about this: They give those HUMONGOUS rebates on their cars and trucks - why couldn't they just have a Hybrid, set the MSRP at their "average" markup, and not rebate it?
Think how many they would have sold if the Malibu was a Hybrid at that cost point.
They did fail to think about the PR angle, which Toyota is masterful at. However, Toyota has the cash to take a gamble like that - GM does not. In a way, Toyota has helped other companies because they've taken the risks and generated the hybrid buzz, and other companies can just ride it now.
http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=communique&newsid=741- 0
As of Nov-2004, Toyota has sold 306,862 vehicles
Honda 81,867.
In December, Toyota & Honda must have sold around
10,000 with Ford another 3,000 (Between Oct-Dec).
So the total exceeds 400,000. Thats great.
For Toyota, exceeding 300,000 is another milestone.
At that time SUV / Pickups were selling like hotcakes when Oil prices
were at $ 25 / barrel.
But now with oil @ $ 40, GM has to give lot of discounts to sell
their big SUV's. Their strategy has gone wrong.
Time to turn the focus to Hybrids atleast now.
His claim that Toyota's hybrid investment was "marketing" is sour grapes at best.
His company dragged butt and now are getting bitten.
He sees that 100,000 Pruises number and is kicking himself for not seeing about 70,000 Hybrid Malibus in that forecast.
By increasing the Hydrogen storgage from
5,000 psi (350 bar) to 10,000 psi (700 bar), GM-Sequel's range has
been extended from 150 - 300 miles.
They also use Li-Ion battery to provide supplementary power.
Hope GM applies this battery in Gasolene-Electric vehicle as well.
the writer talks about the World's movement from fire to electricity.
Household cooking has moved from gas-stoves to microwave & toaster ovens.
Space heating which is done by Oil & Gas has been supplemented by
Portable Electric heaters.
Ore-smelting in steel plants which has used fuels like coal, oil & gas
has been replaced by electric arc-furnaces.
The last and the most important is the Automobile.
Even here the movement has started in 2 areas.
2 & 3 Wheelers : These vehicles which are traditionally powered by Gasolene
is moving towards Electricity. In a visit to local Toys R Us store, I saw a lot of Razor scooters and Kids Hummers.
Hybrid Vehicles : Though motors are playing a role in hybrids by capturing
the re-generative energy, they still needs to have plug-in
facility.
Once if Plug-in-Hybrid vehicles start coming in, the grid power will reduce the Oil crunch.
troy
Imaginary Diesel Hybrid Sedan for the USA:
For example, if we could get a diesel hybrid 4-dr sedan with around 120 HP and MPG rates in the 60-70 MPG range, and keep that car under $25,000 and make it a PZEV, then I'm all for it.
Who can guess WHICH part of my "imaginary diesel hybrid sedan for the USA" is NOT likely to happen?
Troy, what's going to be your tune about the "hybrid premium" when the Diesel Hybrids hit the US and the "diesel Hybrid Premium" is about 40% higher than the existing premium?
Because that's EXACTLY the problem with D/H cars - the diesel adds money to the base price and the hybridization adds money to the base price.
Let me guess the hybrid part.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000080&sid=akAOU4Peu- dj4&refer=asia
By using variable cylinder management, we can easily match the fuel efficiency of hybrids,'' Fukui said. ``Ultimately, fuel cell vehicles will probably become the solution.''
Two of their bestselling models have hybrid option now. More will come.
And while fuel cell may be the future, who is to say they won't be hybrids? Ford Focus FCV-Hybrid is one!
Honda President Takeo Fukui says By using variable cylinder management, we can easily match the fuel efficiency of hybrids
You better talk to this guy he has a different opinion of hybrids than you do. Hybrids have peaked and will be old news in a couple years.
Hybrids are here to stay until Fuel Cells take over. Dirty or Clean Diesel is not the answer - reducing or eliminating fossil fuel usage is the long term goal, and nothing on the road does that better than Hybrids RIGHT NOW.
Right now, TODAY, and in the foreseeable future, Hybrids are the best option. No argument possible for that. Look at the top Greenest cars - they are all Hybrids.
"Honda can devise cheaper alternatives to save fuel in vehicles. For example, the Odyssey and the hybrid Accord use cylinder deactivation."
VCM and hybrid technology aren't mutually exclusive. And you should know that.
Chances are, we will see VCM applied to light trucks before we see hybrid option being added to them. Hybrid option will help enhance the effectiveness of VCM, like it does in HAH.
.
When gas costs $10 a gallon next decade, people will be willing to pay that premium.
I will refer you back to post 1109:
rfruth, "Hybrids in the News" #1109, 14 Jan 2005 7:16 pm
They are not indicating that they will pursue hybrids any further than they have. Not when the President says they feel they can match hybrid performance with VCM. He has already said they will not put hybrid in any of the truck/SUV type vehicles. That does not leave much that is not already hybrid. It also looks as thought they will limit the hybrids to about 20k per year. Not what I call a big push to sell them. Would you want to sell something you were losing money on?
Would you want to *advertise* something you were losing money on?
For those how missed it, Honda had a significant commercial during the NFC playoffs yesterday touting their three hybrids (Insight, Civic, and Accord).
The argument could go on and on about exactly *why* Honda chose to do the commercial, but clearly they are hoping to derive some value from their hybrids, directly or indirectly.
No, NO, NO he did not say that at all. He said it is "not in the current 3 year plan." They get re-evaluated over time.
And Honda has previously stated that they can "put the IMA system in any car they want" and they will do that as they wish.
I suspect Honda is now leaning towards diesel for future growth.
troy
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2005-01-16-autonation_x.htm
”Honda President Takeo Fukui said he plans to mainly install hybrid system in mass-produced vehicles instead of hybrid-only models to keep costs lower and make hybrids more available.”
Thats is OPPOSITE of what you've been suggesting.
And again, VCM and Hybrid technology are NOT mutually exclusive. If VCM by itself match current hybrids (someday, I don’t see it today), I would bet that adding hybrid option to it (like it IS in Accord Hybrid) will be better. What do you think?
It also looks as thought they will limit the hybrids to about 20k per year.
Thats about right, and more than Acura TSX that AHM projects to sell each year. And TSX is no hybrid. Why is that?
I wonder if VCM is practical in a small-displacement 4 cylinder car, like the Civic for example?
In contrast a 6-cylinder car like the Accord Hybrid generates ~50hp at highway speeds, so you can turn off 3 cylinders and still have the minimum ~25hp needed to keep moving down the highway.
troy
As for Insight, it has been rendered a "model car" rather than a car that Honda wants to sell. I suspect Honda will replace it with something from the future Jazz/Fit line.
I am only posting what the Boss at Honda said. He thinks they can match hybrid mileage with VCM. Why would you think he would say that if he was not trying to get away from hybrids? They are a big drain on an otherwise well run company. Others here are assuming that Honda will put IMA in other vehicles because they can. They have not said they would only some posters have said they would. Can and will are a long ways apart.
Maybe they are advertising hybrids at the NFC play-offs because it is the Green thing to do right now. It feeds people that think they are environmentally astute.
Suppose the incremental improvement in fuel economy from hybrid technology is X. And suppose the incremental improvement from VCM is Y. Assume X = Y. Would you rather have X, Y, or X + Y? I'd rather have X + Y myself.
Why? It just adds complexity to the equation with little or no gain. I think the VCM is a great idea. I would like to try out the Odyssey EX-L for a few days to see if it is comfortable on a long trip. If you can get a vehicle that size that gets 30 mpg on the highway it would be a worthwhile.
No. You're posting your own conclusions drawn from his statement. If you really want to see what Fukui is saying, read the text I highlighted from his statements above. He's talking about "installing hybrid systems". How do you arrive at this being moving away from hybrid?
It just adds complexity to the equation with little or no gain
Again, thats your opinion. Don't represent it as a fact. I see VCM as complimentary to IMA system, simply because one provides greater impact in city (hybrid) and the other on freeways.
...why bother with the expense of a battery/motor?
troy
Honda is touting that they are the only vehicle manufacturer that is offering three hybrids today. They are also very vocal in their goals to develop a fuel cell vehicle.
Regarding new models, is anyone hearing anything regarding Honda's plans to offer more hybrid in the next five to ten years? While it is fine and good that they are working on fuels cells, they are still atleast ten years away from offering a reliable fuel cell vehicle that is affordable. In the meantime, they can not ignore the attention and the sales that Toyota is enjoying.
I think they would want to react by offering a hybrid version of their Pilot, Odyssey and maybe even a MDX to compete with Toyota. Fukui is making vague statements in true Japanese form. Is anyone hearing what is really going on?
Power train for Acura RDX at the moment remains a mystery. It could be offered as a hybrid, or with a conventional (V6) engine. We shall know shortly.
As far as Honda/Acura cars are concerned, 2006 Civic Hybrid is being tauted as being significantly better, Accord Hybrid has been in the market for about a month now, and there is potential for TSX and/or TL to get hybrid option when the sales stabilize to a point of not showing an increase.
In current (non-hybrid) applications of VCM, Honda Inspire (Japanese market, with 247 HP 3.0/V6) and Odyssey (North American market, with 255 HP 3.5/V6), the improvement from VCM is said to be about 10-12% on highway. So, if Civic gets you 38 mpg on highway, you're looking at a 4 mpg bump. And if it gets 32 mpg in city where VCM effectiveness is minimal, may be an mpg or two.
With hybrid option, however, I would expect next Civic to deliver 50 mpg, with or without VCM (if Honda sets it up with I-4 engines).
.
What's ANC? My understanding of VCM is that it's not much different than a normal car. The valves simply disconnect & dangle, leaving 1/2 the cylinders turned off. The expense of that design is essentially the same.
Bottom-line: You could provide the fuel economy of a 3-cylinder car at cruising speeds, but still preserve 6-cylinder power (or 2-cylinder economy with 4-cylinder power) with virtually no additional expense.
troy
"While "drive by wire" is now common with many manufacturers, Active Noise Control is unique to this vehicle. Active Noise Control (ANC) uses sound waves generated from the audio speakers to cancel out any booming noise from the powertrain. The ANC controller uses a microphone to detect any noise and then generates a signal 180 degrees out of phase to cancel out the original noise."
"The cancelling sound waves are emitted from the front and rear speakers during 3 cylinder operation, idling and at-start running. During 6 cylinder operation, the system is off. ANC sounds a bit like science fiction but it has been used by the military for stealth technology and now it has found another purpose in creating a smooth quiet ride."
So, going back to the Civic implementation, would you take it for something like 33/42 mpg rating instead of 32/38 mpg? It may actually be possible to get those kind of mileage with a 6-speed automatic (like AAD that Honda has been testing) without resorting to VCM. VCM, as in Odyssey, seems to have also required slightly shorter top gear BTW (but not in Accord Hybrid potentially since electric power comes to assist and keep VCM activated longer), so it is not a direct 1/2 conversion.
"The morning began with the Motor Press Guild Keynote address given this year by Bernd Pischetsrieder, Chairman of Volkswagen. Mr. Pischetsrieder’s started out by saying that in his opinion the hydrogen economy was not a realistic solution to air pollution concerns. He also stated that having multiple alternative fuels is not good because it is not feasible for drivers to have to hunt around for different fuel sources such as CNG, Ethanol or Bio-diesel.
He put forward the idea that we must look to existing infrastructure to provide the solution which he suggests will be the use of synthetic fuels made from Bio sources like soy beans, or by using the gas normally burned off from oil wells in a gas to liquid fuel process.
He proposed diesel engines running on these synthetic fuels as the solution to CO2 reduction. Currently VW diesel engines don’t meet the strict California emissions standards but VW is committed to meeting the strict new standards taking effect in 2007.
Mr. Pischetsrieder also said that VW are working on a Diesel Hybrid but didn’t give any timeframe for when this might be available to the public. He also said that they were working on an engine that behaved like a diesel at low revs and like a gas engine at higher revs, combining the best qualities of the diesel and the gas engine."
The whole story is here:
http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=796
units of Toyota Prius in Europe. Thats great.
5 / 6 Speed Transmission : MY-2005 Accord, CR-V, Odyssey, Pilot
all feature a 5 speed transmission which will give better mileage
than 4 speed. Even GM & Ford are working to move to 6-speed
transmission.
VCM : By shutting half the # of cylinders during cruise, they
expect mileage to increase.
Hybrid : Capturing and storing re-generative energy in batteries
and using it later is another important tech.
Honda expects to use all the above and their hybrid target is
50,000 vehicles.
However Ford expects to sell 30,000 hybrids vehicles this year and
this compares closely with Honda. Also Toyota & Ford are concentrating
on Full hybrid which is expecting to give even better mileage.
Anyway Honda being a small company does a very good job and they had
the guts to sell a small car like Insight whereas a bigger company
like Daimler is still struggling to bring their Smart car to US.
http://www.techcentralstation.com/011905E.html
I think the cost to build them has always played a big part. Take the Chrysler diesel/hybrid. It never got out of the test lab because the cost difference.