I watched with bewilderment at the PRIUS Ad that, at first, I wasn't even sure what the heck the point of the add was until it was almost over. Frankly, I,m puzzled by Toyota,s thinking. They simply failed to hit the auto industry right where it hurts. Right at the main issue of gluttonous SUV's that SUCK gas at a gusher level. What they should have shown.....A PRIUS at SUNRISE on a cross-country drive passing filling-station after filling-station all day long into the SUNSET. Oh, and all those stations full of Hummers and the like.
P.S. Today's newspaper announced higher gas prices on the way ($2.50 and higher by end of April)
Culliganman (still sipping)
P.S.S. Why is it every time I DO see a HUMMER, it's driven by a WOMAN? (Is that an oxymoron?)
A PRIUS at SUNRISE on a cross-country drive passing filling-station after filling-station all day long into the SUNSET.
Mercedes beat them to it with their wonderful ad for the E320 CDI, arguably the best car on the planet....
Women love to drive big cars like the Hummer. I could not keep my Ex-wife out of my Suburban. I think it is the feeling of being up high and safer. Which are good reasons for owning them. Gas is still very cheap at $2.50 per gallon. I think $4-$5 per gallon will make people take notice of the gas bill on their budget. Our electric bill far out strips our gas bills every month. My Suburban gas bill was under $40 per month last year.
I work 45 miles north of New York City, on the CT state line. It seems all the women are married to very hard working & rich men. 99 3/4% of the women drive hummers & suburbans and alike. Most of the women are under 5'5" tall and have a nanny & a cook & someone to clean the home. It is so strange to see school closed due to snow, and all the women go out with there 4WD's and look to go out and play. They can't seem to ever park in on spot or get even close to the curb and between the lines, and when they do get into an accident, it was not there falt, because they could not see down there to see the little car they hit.
In all fairness there are some who can drive really well in any type of vehicle they drive. But that is some not most.
As far as gas prices, we are at $2.30 per gallon of regular unleaded right now and have not dropped below that yet this year, if it is going to go up every where else, we should expect it to be around $2.75 per gallon, last year we saw prices around $3.00 per gallon and more for full serve.
There's another reason to buy the Toyota Prius hybrid. Customers are willing to wait months to buy one. Critics tabbed it as a car of the year in 2004. And, today, it'll be named the best value of any car under $23,000 by IntelliChoice, the Campbell company that evaluates the cost of buying or leasing a vehicle.
That means a Prius owner will pay less to own one for five years than any other model of that price.
Earlier this year, Bill Ford announced that production of the Mercury Mariner hybrid would be moved up a year to the his fall. Now the company has released initial details about what will be its second hybrid SUV.
Based on the hybrid powertrain from its cousin the Escape Hybrid, the Mariner Hybrid delivers an estimated 33 mpg (city), 29 mpg (highway) and is targeted to meet California’s Advanced Technology Partial Zero Emissions Vehicle standard—the cleanest a fossil-fuel vehicle can be.
Combined, the gas and electric hybrid partners provide an effective 155 peak horsepower from 35 mph to the speed limit, yielding performance that feels similar to a V-6-powered Mariner, especially during passing maneuvers.
The hybrid powertrain integrates an efficient 2.3-liter 133 hp (99 kW) DOHC four-cylinder engine, two AC electric motors that provide both motor and generator functions, an electronically controlled continuously variable transmission (CVT), and a 330V battery pack consisting of 250 D-size nickel-metal hydride batteries in a compact, rear-mounted, sealed package.
Engine. The hybrid’s engine is 40 pounds lighter than the standard version of Ford's Duratec 23 2.3-liter engine. The block and head are aluminum and the engine uses a friction-welded plastic intake manifold as a further means of reducing weight. Finally, the piston, ring and connecting rod assembly is 15% lighter than comparable modern engines. Lower weight aids both fuel efficiency and acceleration.
Like the Escape Hybrid and the Prius, the Mariner engine uses an Atkinson combustion cycle.
The Portico is also designed to accept Hyundai's hybrid drive system. This configuration features two electric motors; one driving the front wheels and a second driving the rear wheels, providing efficient AWD (all-wheel-drive) capability. Front power is supplied by a 110 kW (136 horsepower) electric motor; a 60 kW (83 horsepower) motor powers the rear wheels.
SPECIFICATIONS: Hyundai Portico Concept Vehicle
Configuration: Hybrid AWD: Front engine/front drive, rear motor/rear drive Wheelbase: 3,070 mm / 120.9 inches Overall length: 5,000 mm / 196.9 inches Overall width: 2,000 mm / 78.7 inches Front overhang: 960 mm / 37.8 inches Rear overhang: 970 mm / 38.2 inches Gasoline engine: Lambda V6 Electric motor front: AC li-ion battery power, 100kW Electric motor rear: AC li-ion battery power, 60kW Transmission: 6-speed Shiftronic automatic Tires: P255/60R-18
Global warming on the rise, please do your part by going out TODAY and buying a high mileage hybrid or some other AT-PZEV car:
"Last year was the the fourth-warmest recorded. Average temperatures taken from land and surfaces of the oceans showed 2004 was 0.86 degrees Fahrenheit (0.48 C) above the average temperature from 1951 to 1980, according to Hansen."
Or, since car production itself adds to pollution, and not everyone can afford a new AT-PZEV car (which are rare and all over $20k I think?)... maybe just drive as little has you have to, take mass transit or walk or ride a bike whenever you can, drive "smart" to eke as many miles out of every gallon of gas that you can, make sure your car is in tune so it emits as little pollution as possible, use low-sulfur gas if available in your area, set up a carpool with a co-worker or co-student if feasible, turn off lights and use appliances intelligently around the house and office... and there are many more ways to reduce greenhouse gases.
But the reality is, there are VERY FEW Americans who can live on public transportation or biking or walking or Segways as their primary transportation mode.
I would love to be able to function sans car, but as a single dad with two kids, I could not possibly do so.
I wasn't suggesting you or anyone else function sans car (although in a few areas of the U.S. like New York I know of people who do, renting a car on occasion). But many people do live in range of mass transit (I do, for example) and they can take advantage of it. You don't need to buy a Prius or other AT-PZEV vehicle (and there aren't that many others available) to do something to reduce greenhouse gases. But if you are going to buy a car anyway and one of those AT-PZEV cars meets your needs, that's a great idea.
I think you've discovered a "bug" in our database!
Very good research. It was misleading after the change. It went from 27 PZEV cars to just 2. I thought they were trying to make it harder to get the higher rating. Thanks!
Sure! But, you can enhance performance and/or mileage with hybridization. OTOH, without hybridization, you would have to deal with a tradeoff between performance/mileage and emissions rating.
I remember the PR when the first SULEV was released in market (2000 Accord in CA, IIRC). It was rated at 148 HP compared to 150 HP LEV rated Accord. Had Honda released a hybrid Accord with the same I-4, it may have been possible to have 160-165 HP SULEV (or even AT-PZEV) version, gaining in performance, fuel economy and achieving similar or better emissions rating. That’s hybridization.
I was curious as to why the Dodge Stratus had a 9.5 air pollution score and the AT-PZEV Hybrids did not, so I e-mailed the EPA and got this response:
"Thank you for using EPA's Green Vehicle Guide! (www.epa.gov/greenvehicles)
I think you've discovered a "bug" in our database! The Ford Escape Hybrid is indeed a PZEV, and its air pollution score should be 9.5. There may be other PZEV vehicles that
are mis-scored as well. The reason for this error is complicated. The main difference between "PZEV" and non-PZEV vehicles are with the evaporative emissions. PZEVs have evaporative emissions that are near-zero. The Green Vehicle Guide scores are based upon the
vehicle's tailpipe emissions, rather than evaporative emissions, thus we don't have the data for evaporative emissions readily available. We have developed an algorithm to determine if a vehicle is PZEV-certified without actually looking at the evaporative emissions, and apparently there's a flaw in that calculation. The fix may be more difficult than it sounds, so it may take a while for us to make this correction. However, any vehicle scoring a 9 is pretty near as clean as possible without being electric or hydrogen fuel cell-powered!
Thanks for pointing this out to us, and I hope this doesn't keep you from using the Guide in the future!
America is not Europe. If people bought cars with 50 HP in the USA, we would see them in droves around. Is it the case? I guessed so.
Car is a necessity in the USA, not so in Europe where public transportation infrastructure and the townships themselves are far more developed to not require owning a car. To top it off, exorbitant fuel costs are good enough reasons for people to settle for lower performance. Not so in America. Even cars are overly expensive in those other markets, sometimes as much as twice the price tag if you adopt foreign exchange conversion formula.
Here in America, people can afford cars, and its fuel far more easily than in most of the other markets. And they demand comfort in terms of size and refinement more than anywhere else. With it comes the need for added power, and on top of it, wants too! Hybridization is a great way to address it.
One of the engines that might come close to your 50-60 mpg highway rating sits in Civic Hybrid (in Europe, also offered in Jazz). People are already expecting the upgrade engine (which is a 110 HP 1.5-liter VTEC) over the 86 HP 1.3-liter i-DSI engine with the rumor of the car making it here in America sometime soon.
BUT, highway isn’t the only place to drive a car. Even urban highway system rarely resembles a “real highway”, at least in most cities where I have driven.
Hybridization increases performance potential of any engine, not just small engines, either without compromising fuel economy/emissions, or improving it all!
Here in America We, (mostly self-absorbed people) want it all...Size, 4WD, V8 Performance and a vehicle that inflates our EGO. Just look at the car ads that entice us to buy cars that reflect our PERSONALITIES. Even the Hybrid buyers are in a class of their own (GREEN & ECO-Friendly). I think the winds of change are blowing and I think you'd agree that the majority of car owners/buyers are ready to tell Madison Ave. advertisers that we want smart, economical, and reliable cars that the manufacturers are willing to stand behind (8-10 yr warranties). The accolades that the 04 Prius has been receiving these past few years convinced me to take a "look-see". I was impressed then and after more than a year I'm still spouting my satisfaction on this unique and smart hybrid. I would hope that hybrid thinking will continue to grow and we as a nation will rise above the gluttenous past. Of course Madison Ave will have to wise up and smell the "GREEN TEA".
Culliganman ( Hybrids Here To Stay)
P.S. If the PRIUS were a Hollywood Movie up for an Academy Award for Best New Car.....The PRIUS would win in a landslide. There's an idea..A movie about a HYBRID CAR...They made one about CELLPHONES.They could call it....A CAR FOR ALL SEASONS..or..THE HUNT FOR GREEN OCTOBER...or...CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE HYBRID KIND.
Hybrids certainly no longer a FAD as some thought before:
"Last year and the year before, a lot of people felt hybrid technology was a tree-hugging fad," Jackson said Monday. "Well, that debate is over. It's a transforming technology."
I was sitting in the Smart ForFour 2 days ago at the Chicago Autoshow - media event. It will start at or around $15K and believe me, it is very small. There is no way an adult could sit in the back and not have a problem after ½ hour or so. The ForTwo is ridiculously small and will never make it in volume here in the states. Well, it won’t at $2.00 per gallon gasoline with ½ the driving public driving medium to large sized land yachts :-( A 30 mph crash into one of the so called land yachts and you will wish you were thrown from that particular vehicle no matter how good its crash rating once released. I am exaggerating of course but it is really really small. Most would be better off considering a new Toyota Corolla LE w/ Auto or new 06 Civic LX with the same. Less $’s, more amenities, similar FE, higher performance, and much higher safety judging only by its size. It was actually scary how small the ForTwo was let alone the ForFour.
It might be a great choice for those in Europe as most cars are smaller in size thanks to $4.00/gallon in fuel taxes but here in the states, I can understand why DCC is hesitant.
A 30 mph crash into one of the so called land yachts and you will wish you were thrown from that particular vehicle no matter how good its crash rating once released.
The Smart ForTwo has better survivability in crashes than you might think from its tiny size. I read about crash tests conducted by DC in which big SUVs were smashed into the ForTwo. The car is designed to bounce off of such impacts, protecting its occupants with air bags. That actually might work better than having a 2500-pound Civic or Corolla try to absorb the impact of a collision with an SUV. Interesting design anyway--reminds me of the system devised to protect space probes from impacts on a planet's surface--cushion the delicate equipment inside of airbags while the craft bounces off the surface. I think I'd prefer that to being thrown from the car into who knows what.
The next derivative of acceleration yields a term called jerk. Anything moving in one direction and then in another will experience a far higher change in acceleration then one that continues on its intended path albeit decelerating. When you see a Smart in person, you will see what I did. You will not want to have less then 3 feet of mass to crunch vs. just about anything else you might come in contact with. What else can I say? Although a prediction, I believe the American public will shy away from these 2 vehicles given the apparent limited crash worthiness, small size, lack of rear seat comfort, lack of performance, and FE as they were presented. Neither was a Corolla or Civic by any stretch imho.
In terms of being thrown from the car, that means almost instant death but when you get the chance to sit in one, you might feel the same.
Oh, and no hybrid option available either here in the states or overseas according to the press packet I saw.
I guess we'd all better stop driving then, because I don't think there's more than 3 feet of mass to crunch for a side impact on any vehicle available today. :-(
I don't think they'll sell well either--not if they cost $15k, which is the price of a nice compact or even a bare-bones midsized car. Maybe a few in the big East coast cities with their parking problems, that's about it.
3’ front, even less for a rear hit. As for side hits, it would probably be underneath most SUV’s in that kind of collision and one I worry about in the Insight as well.
The SMART rep I spoke with said it will probably be offered with a 1.0, 1.3, and a 1.5 L ICE with the last 2 being options. His $15K MSRP starting point for the ForFour sounded rather firm which was what made me think it will never work on the pricing side let alone the small safety angle here in the states. The ForFour’s performance ranged from 9.x seconds to 15.x seconds to 60 and its FE was in the lower 40’s with the least powerful ICE IIRC. In Europe, it had 2 diesel options (IIRC again). No hybrid’s :-( We left after that was brought to our attention. I wish I would have kept the press kit but I threw it out given no hybrid drive trains and that was the reason we were at the Media event in the first place
Hey, you mentioned the word Hybrid in your last post too ;-)
of all the manufacturers on the planet, only Ford Motor Company is actively involved in the development of all four leading technologies: hybrid-electric, clean diesel, hydrogen internal combustion and fuel cells.
The Portico is also designed to accept Hyundai's hybrid drive system. This configuration features two electric motors; one driving the front wheels and a second driving the rear wheels, providing efficient AWD (all-wheel-drive) capability. Front power is supplied by a 110 kW (136 horsepower) electric motor; a 60 kW (83 horsepower) motor powers the rear wheels.
Hyundai did a hybrid prototype of the Gen 2 Elantra a few years ago but did not put it into production. It does show they've been working on a hybrid sedan for awhile, though.
With the larger electric motors it would lend itself to all electric for a few miles if the batteries were big enough. I still like that idea of a plug in at night and just go on electric for 30 or so miles. Then for longer trips you have the ICE backup. Makes more sense for a lot of short commuters.
All I seem to see is Ford in Development (likewise G.M. and Chrysler) while Toyota, Honda, and Nissan are busy putting out a variety of HYBRIDS. Seems to me the U.S. is sadly lagging behind. I see this era of advancement and leadership taken over solely by those guys on the other side of the Pacific. Makes you wonder where it will continue to go and even where will it end. Oh! I did forget the sole entry by FORD....the ESCAPE HYBRID with Toyota's hybrid drivetrain. Seems if you can't beat em' use their technology. Why not?
There's been a fair bit of confusion, incidentally, about Ford's decision to sign a licensing agreement with Toyota . The U.S. automaker insists Escape's totally home-grown, but that some of its technology was close enough in concept to possibly trigger a patent infringement suit. Ford claims it was easier to simply pay a small royalty. Toyota officials concur.
After attending the Chicago Auto Show I saw the direction that U.S. auto makers are going and then there was the direction that Toyota, Honda, & Nissan ect were going. That the two were not down the same road was obvious. As gas prices steadily rise I think we will see the majority of car buyers feeling the same desperation that came on in 1974 with the gas shotages and high prices. Many of you, old enough to remember, will recall the dust settleing on big V8 cars and everyone scrambleing to find economy cars. I, like many of you, loved my past cars, but that was then and this is now. My PRIUS is a car of much praise but those cars of old would be so impractical today.
Show me an American made car thats presently available to compete with Toyota, Honda, etc. Hybrids but you and I know that you can't.
In regards to Ford, they have gone far beyond the Ford Escape HEV with their future propulsion and emissions control technology. The new high torque tranny they have developed is nothing like the CVT of the Escape or Prius II. The CI-ICE in the Meta-One is using the latest injector technology, latest CAT technology, latest EGR technology, and latest DPF’s to achieve what would be impossible just a year ago from a diesel. The Hybrid portion of the powertrain is actually being used to control emissions vs. adding power or FE given the Diesel’s inherent high thermal efficiency already Robertsmx, your guesses were correct. The safety HW going into the next gen Ford’s courtesy of Volvo and those developed in house are so far beyond what you would expect today that most manufacturers will lust for it in the near future. The interior ergonomics and customization Ford is working on with their next gen releases (after the Fusion) and styling coming from their new US lead (he is the Brit that fixed Volvo’s styling) could make Ford the envy of the industry. The high level Ford reps I spoke with at the Media event of the Chicago Autoshow also know how dangerously close they are to losing the whole thing and are working their tails off to make sure this does not happen. If anyone deserves our appreciation, Ford does over and above many of the other manufacturers Reps I had a chance to meet with over the 2 day press event a few days ago. These reps included Mary Ann Wright (Advanced Hybrid Projects Manager), Zafer Shaikh (Tech Lead - Powertrain Technology - Research and Advanced Technology Engineering group), and David Wagner (Technical Lead - Vehicle Design and Development). These 3 are part of a larger team that with some luck will make Ford what it should have always been. I have to thank all 3 of them publicly for their time. Especially Zafer for an inside look at what Ford is actually doing in the propulsion technology area to meet or exceed the average US consumers and the government’s expectations far into the future.
___On another note, Nissan is dangerously behind the curve and the reps provided absolutely nothing in terms of substance about the upcoming Ultima or March hybrid’s. They simply didn’t know? GM had little to offer on the upcoming 07 hybrid SUV’s using the Dual Mode hybrid drivetrain either. There wasn’t anyone around that knew anything about them is all. The Saturn VUE hybrid? Again, the Saturn reps had exactly 0 information and they appeared to not have any to offer. Honda was tight lipped as usual about the 06 Civic Hybrid. You could tell they know but they wouldn’t offer anything of substance.
It's no revelation (or news) that Toyota and Honda are in the lead in bringing gas/electric hybrid technology to market. But I am encouraged by what Ford is doing with not only hybrids but also fuel-cell vehicles. And it appears GM has jumped on the hybrid bandwagon also (sorry if this is a repeat):
Argumentative posts that had nothing to do with "news" have been removed.
kirstie_h
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"I bet Honda or Toyota could build a 50 horsepower car that gets 50-60mpg highway, and not even touch a battery. In fact, they do. In Europe (and yes it's gasoline). Hybridization doesn't increase MPG. It increases performance for tiny engines. -troy"
"America is not Europe. If people bought cars with 50 HP in the USA, we would see them in droves around. Is it the case? I guessed so. -robertmsx"
.
Strawman argument. I never said 50hp cars would successfully sell in America. Poor debating tactic & one you should avoid. I said it COULD be engineered.
(1) I was refuting the statement, "A Battery adds MPG" which is NOT true. A battery adds peak horsepower to tiny cars.
(2) I was also making the point that you can build PZEV cars without a battery. I didn't know that was possible, but I'm glad to see it is!
Comments
P.S. Today's newspaper announced higher gas prices on the way ($2.50 and higher by end of April)
Culliganman (still sipping)
P.S.S. Why is it every time I DO see a HUMMER, it's driven by a WOMAN? (Is that an oxymoron?)
Mercedes beat them to it with their wonderful ad for the E320 CDI, arguably the best car on the planet....
Women love to drive big cars like the Hummer. I could not keep my Ex-wife out of my Suburban. I think it is the feeling of being up high and safer. Which are good reasons for owning them. Gas is still very cheap at $2.50 per gallon. I think $4-$5 per gallon will make people take notice of the gas bill on their budget. Our electric bill far out strips our gas bills every month. My Suburban gas bill was under $40 per month last year.
In all fairness there are some who can drive really well in any type of vehicle they drive. But that is some not most.
As far as gas prices, we are at $2.30 per gallon of regular unleaded right now and have not dropped below that yet this year, if it is going to go up every where else, we should expect it to be around $2.75 per gallon, last year we saw prices around $3.00 per gallon and more for full serve.
Let's get back to Hybrids in the News please.
By Matt Nauman
Mercury News
There's another reason to buy the Toyota Prius hybrid. Customers are willing to wait months to buy one. Critics tabbed it as a car of the year in 2004. And, today, it'll be named the best value of any car under $23,000 by IntelliChoice, the Campbell company that evaluates the cost of buying or leasing a vehicle.
That means a Prius owner will pay less to own one for five years than any other model of that price.
The full results will be posted on http://www.intellichoice.com today.
http://www.mixedpower.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&- amp;- amp;sid=350
Earlier this year, Bill Ford announced that production of the Mercury Mariner hybrid would be moved up a year to the his fall. Now the company has released initial details about what will be its second hybrid SUV.
Based on the hybrid powertrain from its cousin the Escape Hybrid, the Mariner Hybrid delivers an estimated 33 mpg (city), 29 mpg (highway) and is targeted to meet California’s Advanced Technology Partial Zero Emissions Vehicle standard—the cleanest a fossil-fuel vehicle can be.
Combined, the gas and electric hybrid partners provide an effective 155 peak horsepower from 35 mph to the speed limit, yielding performance that feels similar to a V-6-powered Mariner, especially during passing maneuvers.
The hybrid powertrain integrates an efficient 2.3-liter 133 hp (99 kW) DOHC four-cylinder engine, two AC electric motors that provide both motor and generator functions, an electronically controlled continuously variable transmission (CVT), and a 330V battery pack consisting of 250 D-size nickel-metal hydride batteries in a compact, rear-mounted, sealed package.
Engine. The hybrid’s engine is 40 pounds lighter than the standard version of Ford's Duratec 23 2.3-liter engine. The block and head are aluminum and the engine uses a friction-welded plastic intake manifold as a further means of reducing weight. Finally, the piston, ring and connecting rod assembly is 15% lighter than comparable modern engines. Lower weight aids both fuel efficiency and acceleration.
Like the Escape Hybrid and the Prius, the Mariner engine uses an Atkinson combustion cycle.
Ford Media Release
http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=20190&ma- ke_id=trust
The Portico is also designed to accept Hyundai's hybrid drive system. This configuration features two electric motors; one driving the front wheels and a second driving the rear wheels, providing efficient AWD (all-wheel-drive) capability. Front power is supplied by a 110 kW (136 horsepower) electric motor; a 60 kW (83 horsepower) motor powers the rear wheels.
SPECIFICATIONS: Hyundai Portico Concept Vehicle
Configuration: Hybrid AWD: Front engine/front drive, rear motor/rear drive Wheelbase: 3,070 mm / 120.9 inches Overall length: 5,000 mm / 196.9 inches Overall width: 2,000 mm / 78.7 inches Front overhang: 960 mm / 37.8 inches Rear overhang: 970 mm / 38.2 inches Gasoline engine: Lambda V6 Electric motor front: AC li-ion battery power, 100kW Electric motor rear: AC li-ion battery power, 60kW Transmission: 6-speed Shiftronic automatic Tires: P255/60R-18
"Last year was the the fourth-warmest recorded. Average temperatures taken from land and surfaces of the oceans showed 2004 was 0.86 degrees Fahrenheit (0.48 C) above the average temperature from 1951 to 1980, according to Hansen."
Full story here:
http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&- ;storyID=2005-02-10T152838Z_01_DEN055676_RTRUKOC_0_ENVIRONMENT-WA- RMING-NASA.xml
I would love to be able to function sans car, but as a single dad with two kids, I could not possibly do so.
Can you give us a current list of PZEV cars? I only see two the Stratus and Sebring that have the PZEV rating under the new EPA guidelines.
"That's clean enough to qualify
the 2005 Escape Hybrid for the stringent Advanced Technology Partial Zero
Emissions Vehicle (AT-PZEV) standards."
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/- www/story/01-09-2005/0002808690&EDATE=
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/ccvl/2005sulevpzevlist.htm?PF=Y
Very good research. It was misleading after the change. It went from 27 PZEV cars to just 2. I thought they were trying to make it harder to get the higher rating. Thanks!
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/ccvl/2005sulevpzevlist.htm?PF=Y
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/ccvl/2004sulevpzevlist.htm
troy
I remember the PR when the first SULEV was released in market (2000 Accord in CA, IIRC). It was rated at 148 HP compared to 150 HP LEV rated Accord. Had Honda released a hybrid Accord with the same I-4, it may have been possible to have 160-165 HP SULEV (or even AT-PZEV) version, gaining in performance, fuel economy and achieving similar or better emissions rating. That’s hybridization.
In fact, they do. In Europe. (and yes it's gasoline)
Hybridization doesn't increase MPG. It increases performance for tiny engines.
troy
"Thank you for using EPA's Green Vehicle Guide! (www.epa.gov/greenvehicles)
I think you've discovered a "bug" in our database! The Ford Escape Hybrid is indeed a PZEV, and its air pollution score should be 9.5. There may be other PZEV vehicles that
are mis-scored as well. The reason for this error is complicated. The main difference between "PZEV" and non-PZEV vehicles are with the evaporative emissions. PZEVs have evaporative emissions that are near-zero. The Green Vehicle Guide scores are based upon the
vehicle's tailpipe emissions, rather than evaporative emissions, thus we don't have the data for evaporative emissions readily available. We have developed an algorithm to determine if a vehicle is PZEV-certified without actually looking at the evaporative emissions, and apparently there's a flaw in that calculation. The fix may be more difficult than it sounds, so it may take a while for us to make this correction. However, any vehicle scoring a 9 is pretty near as clean as possible without being electric or hydrogen fuel cell-powered!
Thanks for pointing this out to us, and I hope this doesn't keep you from using the Guide in the future!
Regards,
Linda ooxooxoox
Environmental Protection Specialist"
Car is a necessity in the USA, not so in Europe where public transportation infrastructure and the townships themselves are far more developed to not require owning a car. To top it off, exorbitant fuel costs are good enough reasons for people to settle for lower performance. Not so in America. Even cars are overly expensive in those other markets, sometimes as much as twice the price tag if you adopt foreign exchange conversion formula.
Here in America, people can afford cars, and its fuel far more easily than in most of the other markets. And they demand comfort in terms of size and refinement more than anywhere else. With it comes the need for added power, and on top of it, wants too! Hybridization is a great way to address it.
One of the engines that might come close to your 50-60 mpg highway rating sits in Civic Hybrid (in Europe, also offered in Jazz). People are already expecting the upgrade engine (which is a 110 HP 1.5-liter VTEC) over the 86 HP 1.3-liter i-DSI engine with the rumor of the car making it here in America sometime soon.
BUT, highway isn’t the only place to drive a car. Even urban highway system rarely resembles a “real highway”, at least in most cities where I have driven.
Hybridization increases performance potential of any engine, not just small engines, either without compromising fuel economy/emissions, or improving it all!
Toyota to launch Vitz (Echo with 5th door) model in Japan with Start/Stop feature (Mild Hybrid). This vehicle gives 25.5 liters/km (60 mpg).
They should launch this in USA also.
Culliganman ( Hybrids Here To Stay)
P.S. If the PRIUS were a Hollywood Movie up for an Academy Award for Best New Car.....The PRIUS would win in a landslide. There's an idea..A movie about a HYBRID CAR...They made one about CELLPHONES.They could call it....A CAR FOR ALL SEASONS..or..THE HUNT FOR GREEN OCTOBER...or...CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE HYBRID KIND.
Hybrids = Green and Eco-Friendly
ICE = Inflated Ego
;-)
"Last year and the year before, a lot of people felt hybrid technology was a tree-hugging fad," Jackson said Monday. "Well, that debate is over. It's a transforming technology."
http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=11151
In a similar way, Smaller the cars, easier it will be to park and move around in cities. More people should think about this.
The Smart brand's
http://www.smart.com/-snm-0135145948-1107856684-0000032358-000000- 0110-1108157043-enm-is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/smart-content-S- ite/-/-/-/Default-Start
For-Two (2 seater car) is ideal for students, retired couples and rentals when only 1 / 2 persons goes for a ride.
For-Four (4 seater car) is ideal for families who have only 1 or 2 children.
Unfortunately, DC does not have guts to bring it to USA.
In the meantime, Scion's xA, xB, Mini, Beetle are doing good job. Day is not far, when such functional cars will hit the American shores.
At that point of time, probably the cost of hybrids will also come down.
I was sitting in the Smart ForFour 2 days ago at the Chicago Autoshow - media event. It will start at or around $15K and believe me, it is very small. There is no way an adult could sit in the back and not have a problem after ½ hour or so. The ForTwo is ridiculously small and will never make it in volume here in the states. Well, it won’t at $2.00 per gallon gasoline with ½ the driving public driving medium to large sized land yachts :-( A 30 mph crash into one of the so called land yachts and you will wish you were thrown from that particular vehicle no matter how good its crash rating once released. I am exaggerating of course but it is really really small. Most would be better off considering a new Toyota Corolla LE w/ Auto or new 06 Civic LX with the same. Less $’s, more amenities, similar FE, higher performance, and much higher safety judging only by its size. It was actually scary how small the ForTwo was let alone the ForFour.
It might be a great choice for those in Europe as most cars are smaller in size thanks to $4.00/gallon in fuel taxes but here in the states, I can understand why DCC is hesitant.
Good Luck
Wayne R. Gerdes
A 30 mph crash into one of the so called land yachts and you will wish you were thrown from that particular vehicle no matter how good its crash rating once released.
The Smart ForTwo has better survivability in crashes than you might think from its tiny size. I read about crash tests conducted by DC in which big SUVs were smashed into the ForTwo. The car is designed to bounce off of such impacts, protecting its occupants with air bags. That actually might work better than having a 2500-pound Civic or Corolla try to absorb the impact of a collision with an SUV. Interesting design anyway--reminds me of the system devised to protect space probes from impacts on a planet's surface--cushion the delicate equipment inside of airbags while the craft bounces off the surface. I think I'd prefer that to being thrown from the car into who knows what.
The next derivative of acceleration yields a term called jerk. Anything moving in one direction and then in another will experience a far higher change in acceleration then one that continues on its intended path albeit decelerating. When you see a Smart in person, you will see what I did. You will not want to have less then 3 feet of mass to crunch vs. just about anything else you might come in contact with. What else can I say? Although a prediction, I believe the American public will shy away from these 2 vehicles given the apparent limited crash worthiness, small size, lack of rear seat comfort, lack of performance, and FE as they were presented. Neither was a Corolla or Civic by any stretch imho.
In terms of being thrown from the car, that means almost instant death but when you get the chance to sit in one, you might feel the same.
Oh, and no hybrid option available either here in the states or overseas according to the press packet I saw.
Wayne R. Gerdes
I don't think they'll sell well either--not if they cost $15k, which is the price of a nice compact or even a bare-bones midsized car. Maybe a few in the big East coast cities with their parking problems, that's about it.
Good move inserting the hybrid angle. ;-)
3’ front, even less for a rear hit. As for side hits, it would probably be underneath most SUV’s in that kind of collision and one I worry about in the Insight as well.
The SMART rep I spoke with said it will probably be offered with a 1.0, 1.3, and a 1.5 L ICE with the last 2 being options. His $15K MSRP starting point for the ForFour sounded rather firm which was what made me think it will never work on the pricing side let alone the small safety angle here in the states. The ForFour’s performance ranged from 9.x seconds to 15.x seconds to 60 and its FE was in the lower 40’s with the least powerful ICE IIRC. In Europe, it had 2 diesel options (IIRC again). No hybrid’s :-( We left after that was brought to our attention. I wish I would have kept the press kit but I threw it out given no hybrid drive trains and that was the reason we were at the Media event in the first place
Hey, you mentioned the word Hybrid in your last post too ;-)
Wayne R. Gerdes
http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=communique&newsid=767- 3
The Portico is also designed to accept Hyundai's hybrid drive system. This configuration features two electric motors; one driving the front wheels and a second driving the rear wheels, providing efficient AWD (all-wheel-drive) capability. Front power is supplied by a 110 kW (136 horsepower) electric motor; a 60 kW (83 horsepower) motor powers the rear wheels.
http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=communique&newsid=766- 6
http://www.caranddriver.com/default.asp?section_id=10&agFlash- =495&agMake=HYUNDAI&agModel=ELANTRA
Hyundai did a hybrid prototype of the Gen 2 Elantra a few years ago but did not put it into production. It does show they've been working on a hybrid sedan for awhile, though.
Culliganman (an the race is on)(or is it over?)
http://www.bullz-eye.com/carreviews/2004/ford_escape_hybrid.htm
Show me an American made car thats presently available to compete with Toyota, Honda, etc. Hybrids but you and I know that you can't.
Culliganman (Prius Happy)
In regards to Ford, they have gone far beyond the Ford Escape HEV with their future propulsion and emissions control technology. The new high torque tranny they have developed is nothing like the CVT of the Escape or Prius II. The CI-ICE in the Meta-One is using the latest injector technology, latest CAT technology, latest EGR technology, and latest DPF’s to achieve what would be impossible just a year ago from a diesel. The Hybrid portion of the powertrain is actually being used to control emissions vs. adding power or FE given the Diesel’s inherent high thermal efficiency already Robertsmx, your guesses were correct. The safety HW going into the next gen Ford’s courtesy of Volvo and those developed in house are so far beyond what you would expect today that most manufacturers will lust for it in the near future. The interior ergonomics and customization Ford is working on with their next gen releases (after the Fusion) and styling coming from their new US lead (he is the Brit that fixed Volvo’s styling) could make Ford the envy of the industry. The high level Ford reps I spoke with at the Media event of the Chicago Autoshow also know how dangerously close they are to losing the whole thing and are working their tails off to make sure this does not happen. If anyone deserves our appreciation, Ford does over and above many of the other manufacturers Reps I had a chance to meet with over the 2 day press event a few days ago. These reps included Mary Ann Wright (Advanced Hybrid Projects Manager), Zafer Shaikh (Tech Lead - Powertrain Technology - Research and Advanced Technology Engineering group), and David Wagner (Technical Lead - Vehicle Design and Development). These 3 are part of a larger team that with some luck will make Ford what it should have always been. I have to thank all 3 of them publicly for their time. Especially Zafer for an inside look at what Ford is actually doing in the propulsion technology area to meet or exceed the average US consumers and the government’s expectations far into the future.
___On another note, Nissan is dangerously behind the curve and the reps provided absolutely nothing in terms of substance about the upcoming Ultima or March hybrid’s. They simply didn’t know? GM had little to offer on the upcoming 07 hybrid SUV’s using the Dual Mode hybrid drivetrain either. There wasn’t anyone around that knew anything about them is all. The Saturn VUE hybrid? Again, the Saturn reps had exactly 0 information and they appeared to not have any to offer. Honda was tight lipped as usual about the 06 Civic Hybrid. You could tell they know but they wouldn’t offer anything of substance.
Good Luck
Wayne R. Gerdes
http://www.freep.com/money/autoshow/2005/clean10e_20050110.htm
kirstie_h
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"America is not Europe. If people bought cars with 50 HP in the USA, we would see them in droves around. Is it the case? I guessed so. -robertmsx"
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Strawman argument. I never said 50hp cars would successfully sell in America. Poor debating tactic & one you should avoid. I said it COULD be engineered.
(1) I was refuting the statement, "A Battery adds MPG" which is NOT true. A battery adds peak horsepower to tiny cars.
(2) I was also making the point that you can build PZEV cars without a battery. I didn't know that was possible, but I'm glad to see it is!
troy