Hybrids in the News

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Comments

  • yerth10yerth10 Member Posts: 431
    Just like a HEV uses battery to store energy, this one stores energy in steam.

     

    http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=communique&newsid=769- 8

     

    Perhaps both battery and steam can be used for even higher mileage.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Strawman argument. I never said 50hp cars would successfully sell in America. Poor debating tactic & one you should avoid. I said it COULD be engineered.

     

    Are you sure about that? You said it with quite an affirmation: “In fact, they do.” So where did this “could” come from?

     

    (1) I was refuting the statement, "A Battery adds MPG" which is NOT true. A battery adds peak horsepower to tiny cars.

     

    And that is WRONG assumption (rather, incomplete). It adds power across the operating range (not just peak), and adding power can mean subtracting engine size which can mean greater efficiency which can mean greater mpg, especially since most of the energy in battery comes from regenerative braking which is recycled energy which if not recycled is dissipated to the atmosphere and this recycled energy is put back to use via electric motor which have far greater energy efficiency than any ICE around.

     

    Now refute this.

      

    (2) I was also making the point that you can build PZEV cars without a battery. I didn't know that was possible, but I'm glad to see it is!

     

    Sure. Where did this argument come from that PZEV requires battery pack? BUT, EPA’s PZEV means nothing if you can occasionally get ZEV courtesy of energy stored in battery pack (as in idle stop).
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    RobertMSX

     

    Take one of those tiny 50hp gasoline cars that gets 60-70 MPG in Europe.

     

    Add a battery.

     

    Does the MPG suddenly increase? OF COURSE NOT.

     

    I rest my case.

     

    troy
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    "Does the MPG suddenly increase? OF COURSE NOT."

     

    It would if the battery was added in concert with a Hybrid system.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "

    Take one of those tiny 50hp gasoline cars that gets 60-70 MPG in Europe.

      

    Add a battery.

      

    Does the MPG suddenly increase? OF COURSE NOT. "

     

    No, it would increase; the battery takes the load off of the ICE, which means better MPG. It is especially useful when building up speed. Even a small car weighs over 1500 lbs and it takes a lot of gas to get it moving. Any engine uses more gas when it has a heavier load. The electric motor reduces the load.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Does the MPG suddenly increase? OF COURSE NOT.

     

    If the battery you just installed participates in shares energy supply with the ICE, it will. This has been mentioned by others, but there is another issue involved here. You choose to emphasize on highway mileage alone. While hybridization can help there as well, it can help more in urban driving (more so in congested areas as is much of Europe).

     

    BUT, let us discuss this, not in “Hybrids in News” but threads related to Hybrid Engineering/Optimizing Mileage.
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    Take one of those tiny 50hp gasoline cars that gets 60-70 MPG in Europe. (Add a battery.) Does the MPG suddenly increase? OF COURSE NOT. -troy

      

    "It would if the battery was added in concert with a Hybrid system. -lars"

     

    .

     

    The only reason you say that Lars, is because you don't understand why a hybrid works. It *might* incease city MPGs (because of EV mode), but it would not have any effect on the 60-70 highway MPG.

     

    In fact, I bet with the added weight of the battery, the average MPG would drop.

      

    A battery does not increase MPG.

    It increases peak horsepower.

     

    troy
  • SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
    All posts on this subject have been moved to their own discussion Taxation by the mile?
  • SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
    ok guys - you have been off-topic for a while here. The subject is Hybrids in the News - that means posting of news links. You are off in a totally separate discussion now. I can move these posts to a discussion (new or existing) to be on-topic, or I can delete them.
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    ABIs take on HEVs - snip -Hybrid Electric Vehicles provides a detailed analysis of OEM plans and supplier alliances pertaining to the production of hybrid vehicles for the consumer market. The report forecasts the global production potential, and discusses issues facing the sale and marketing of hybrids in end-use markets. Regional threats to hybrids from Belt-Alternator-Starter systems and diesel-powered vehicles are also examined. The study forecasts market values for the major components of hybrid systems, batteries and traction motors. The choices involved in the technological evolution of HEVs, from system architectures to battery chemistry, are covered in detail, as are legislative and marketing issues. Forecasts and historical data are provided, by region, for the period 2003-2012.
    http://www.abiresearch.com/reports/HYB.html
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmView- - Id=news_view&newsId=20050223005154&newsLang=en

    If you cant get that link to work, Google News "hybrids" and sort by date and go to the ninth entry on the first page of results.
  • yerth10yerth10 Member Posts: 431
    This link is easier
    http://www.afstrinity.com/press.html

    Its also a Plug-in hybrid.
    Its uses both battery & flywheel.
  • yerth10yerth10 Member Posts: 431
    The idea of using Hybrid Escape in a Cab is wonderful.
    http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/ford/escape/100407869/specs.html?- tid=edmunds.n.researchlanding.leftsidenav..8.Ford*
    Actually at 27 cu. ft. of luggage capacity, Escape has more than any other sedan.
    Crown Vic has only 22 cu. ft.

    So the cabbie can take more luggage and also save money on gas. Probably cab companies are waiting for a hybrid vehicle to have this much space.
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    Read the details. It gets 250 MPG by injecting electric from the grid. CHEAT! Take into account the electrical energy usage, and you get a "gallon-equivalent" of only ~50 MPG.

    .

    Here's a TRUE 250 mpg car (no cheating):

    http://www.seriouswheels.com/top-vw-1-liter-car.htm

    troy
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    The Honda, Ford, and Toyota Hybrids are parallel "mild" hybrids.

    But here is a true parallel "full" hybrid.
    - Electric Motor at highway speed (>65mph)
    - -or- Combustion Engine at highway speed
    - -and- has a plug for recharging, so people can drive to work every day without burning a single drop of mideast oil

    http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=312

    troy
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote E-Troy:"Read the details. It gets 250 MPG by injecting electric from the grid. CHEAT! Take into account the electrical energy usage, and you get a "gallon-equivalent" of only ~50 MPG."-end quote

    My commute is less than 25 miles per day. I would never have to go to the gas engine on a normal day. At 10 cents per KW hour, it would cost very little to energize this car.

    Cheating or not, that's driving cheap and clean. !

    That VW 1 litre car is interesting though - too bad it's a diesel. It takes the Insight "torpedo look" to a new level.
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    Yeah, but it's mis-leading to say "250 mpg" when the true electrical cost is ~50 mpg.

    troy
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The idea of using Hybrid Escape in a Cab is wonderful.

    I think it is worthless. Have you ever sat in the back seat of an Escape? You would have to be very small to not be jammed back there. I know I rented one over night and got rid of it the next day. NO room in the back seat. To even think it can replace a Crown Vic is a gigantic joke. We shall see if they stay in business with that vehicle.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Actually at 27 cu. ft. of luggage capacity, Escape has more than any other sedan.

    Also, Escape has Maximum Cargo Capacity of 66 cu. ft.

    Crown Vic: Luggage Capacity: 20.6 cu. ft. Maximum Cargo Capacity: 21 cu. ft.

    So I guess the Escape is bigger.......
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    So I guess the Escape is bigger.

    We are talking passenger seating. Or isn't that important in a taxi cab? The Crown VIC has 111 cu feet of passenger room, plus 21 ft for luggage. How much passenger room does that dinky little Escape have?
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Showroom specs
    Model: 2005 Ford Escape Hybrid four-door sport utility vehicle.
    Engine: .3-liter four-cylinder gasoline, 133 horsepower; 400-volt electric motor, 94 horsepower..
    Transmission: Continuously variable (CVT) with all wheel drive.
    Overall Length: 14 feet 7 inches.
    EPA passenger and trunk volume: 101 and 28 cubic feet.
    Weight: 3,792 pounds.
    EPA fuel consumption: 28 to 33 miles per gallon.
  • railroadjamesrailroadjames Member Posts: 560
    Well, we know that a Prius has been used for a Taxi before and why not? Over 96 cu. ft. of seating and a very reasonable shade over 16cu.ft of Rr storage for luggage and what-not. All that and 4 doors. Oh, and did I mention 50+ mpgs? Considering the miles that the average taxi driver covers a year 80-100K, I'd say that there's money to save with this hybrid.
    Culliganman($$$talks)
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I don't think my wife would let me bring her home :-)
  • yerth10yerth10 Member Posts: 431
    gagrice

    You can certainly bring that Toyota-Prius home at a cost of $ 25K.

    But for the other one, you probably need a Lexus-RX400h.
  • yerth10yerth10 Member Posts: 431
    http://www.autospectator.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=193

    Toyota to stop production of Celica (4 seater) & MR2 Spyder (2 seater).
    Does it mean that they will use those plants to make more Prius.

    Its customers must have gone for Prius, Scion (xA & xB) since these vehicles offer lot more space and better mileage.

    Even Echo may be going down.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Hybrids "in for the long haul":

    http://www.inc.com/articles/2005/02/drives.html

    and:

    "50 hybrid models on the way":

    http://tinyurl.com/6k3x6
  • yerth10yerth10 Member Posts: 431
    http://tinyurl.com/6k3x6
    says
    * Ford's Escape Hybrid SUV is selling briskly
    * as is the Toyota Prius
    * Honda is enjoying some success with its Civic and Accord Hybrids
    * GM is offering a less sophisticated hybrid pickup

    Wonderful, I expected Escape Hybrid to sell well, since it has the largest luggage space in the current hybrids. Honda has to introduce CRV Hybrid.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Prius tops the list:

    http://tinyurl.com/5lxzn
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "Wonderful, I expected Escape Hybrid to sell well, since it has the largest luggage space in the current hybrids. Honda has to introduce CRV Hybrid."

    The CR-V would be very successful in hybrid form; it has a 4 cylinder engine, and is one of the most fuel efficient mini SUVs. I already achieve 21-22 in town in my RT4WD 2003 EX, and have gotten over 30 MPG at highway speeds (below 65 mph). It's real weakness is in-town driving, where the hybrid implementation would help a lot...

    Plus it has a huge rear well beneathe the cargo floor that would fit a battery pack nicely.
  • tempusvntempusvn Member Posts: 119
    http://business.asia.news.designerz.com/toyota-to-provide-subaru-- - - car-maker-with-hybrid-vehicle-technology-report.html?d20050202

    Toyota plans to supply its hybrid power system to Fuji Heavy, which will use it to make hybrids a mainline product in the North American market, which accounts for 35 percent of its group sales, the Nihon Keizai Shimbun said.

    Fuhi Heavy for tis part is considering supplying to Toyota the technology on Lithium-Ion batteris it has developes with electronics maker NEC for use in hybrid vehichles, the economic daily said without citing sources.

    ....

    US auto giant General Motors, the top shareholder in Fuji Heavy with a 20 percent stake, has formed a partnership with German-US car maker DaimlerChrysler to jointly deveop hybrid vehichle technology.

    The Nihon Keizai siad that the alliance was likely to focus on technology for use in large vehicles, rather than vehicles with engine displacements of around three liters, Fuji Heavy's strength.

    So, in the hybrid tech lines are breaking down like this so far:

    Toyota/Nissan/Porsche/Subaru

    Honda

    Ford/Mazda

    GM/Daimler-Chrysler

    VW - Announced but not sure what it is
  • railroadjamesrailroadjames Member Posts: 560
    Yep, thats right. It's not a typo. I said not in the news. Perhaps if they were in the news and advertised like the other cars you see all the time then maybe more people would realize there's no electrical cord or plug-in. You seldom see advertising in the newspapers and only occasional ads in the car magazines. I've only seen one ad on T.V. (SuperBowl) and yet Toyota can't put them out fast enough (waiting lists abound all over the country).
    Who are these smart & couragous car buyers that take the plunge and go where others refuse? They are just like you only they take a chance on new technology. Then the rest finally follow. Remember this. Hybrids are no "gimmic, one time flash in the pan, or passing fancy. This is why HYBRIDS ARE IN THE NEWS! Word of mouth by owners tells it all.
    Culliganman(the train is leaving the station-come on and get on board)
  • cablackcablack Member Posts: 45
    Perhaps if they were in the news and advertised like the other cars you see all the time...

    During prime-time TV hours, I keep seeing the Honda hybrids commercial for Insight, Civic, and Accord. (Actually, I "glimpse" the commercial as I Tivo past it). So they must still be doing some advertising.

    I guess they could be doing this either:

    - To drive up sales to make more money on hybrids, or
    - To cash in on the positive press for having an environmentally-friendly line of vehicles

    Either way, it seems like a good thing for hybrids and hybrid owners.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I've only seen one ad on T.V. (SuperBowl) and yet Toyota can't put them out fast enough (waiting lists abound all over the country).

    Toyota is advertising, just not to us little people. I read about them first on Edmunds back in 2000, then went to a Toyota dealer to check them out. Toyota has done a good job of getting the "pretty" people to buy and they are all that is needed to get the masses to follow.

    Toyota organised a private test-drive of the 2nd generation Prius and invited some movie stars like Billy Crystal. Out of the 28 invitees, 23 sales were recorded. Billy and his wife each ordered one.

    This kind of advertising money cannot buy. It is the reason normally sane people throw economics out the window and go for the "Green".

    But the real news on that evening last month was in the parking lot. Celebrity after celebrity rolled up to the valet stand in small, snub-nosed, rather dowdy little cars. Director Rob Reiner, "Seinfeld" co-creator Larry David, superagent Arie Emanuel all arrived in Hollywood's latest politically correct status symbol: the half-electric, half-gasoline hybrid car. The Toyota Prius,

    http://www.dicapriodreams.com/Leo/washingtonpostprius.html
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Honda hybrid advertising is more noticeable on TV. They have not gotten the right people to buy them. They don't look "Green" like the Prius. The much touted HAH is not going to even sell the projected 20k units if they don't get moving or discount them.

    Sales of the Honda Civic Hybrid have been decreasing, so perhaps the revamped version will spark renewed interest in the Honda Civic Hybrid. January 2005 numbers show a total of only 1,169 units sold, as compared to 1,321 sold in January 2004. A 4.1% decrease.

    On a related note, Honda Insight sales are almost nonexistent with a total of 7 (!!) sold in January 2005. This is a 83.1% decrease from the 45 that were sold January 2004.

    Honda Accord Hybrid began January with 805 units sold.

    http://hybridcars.about.com/b/a/143993.htm
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Gary, you have constantly harped on the "celebrity factor" being a BIG PART of the success of the Prius.

    I just cannot see that being true.

    I can't imagine anything more than about 5% of people who see a celeb driving a particular car that might themselves be "hypnotized" into buying the car JUST BECAUSE the celeb had it.

    This is not 1960, when celebs REALLY DID set all the trends.

    Most people in 2005 are able to think for themselves.......
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I can't imagine anything more than about 5% of people who see a celeb driving a particular car that might themselves be "hypnotized" into buying the car JUST BECAUSE the celeb had it.

    I think you know better and don't want to admit it. Why do you think they pay Actors & Sports figures millions to plug a product. It is simple they sell what ever they advertise. economically and logically the HCH and Insight are a better choice of hybrid. Yet they are not selling as well as the ONE that has celebrity appeal. Honda may or may not have the better product. They have not appealed to the right high profile people. As far as percentage I would not venture a guess. It is the fact that they saw the Prius at the Oscars or some other Gala event. They decide to check it out. Toyota get millions in free advertising. Probably why they are so rich. Personally if I had to commute I would buy the much under rated Insight. I think I could get some of that 80-90 mpg that is being logged.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Actually, I'm not avoiding "admitting" anything. I just refuse to believe that anywhere near a small minority of people in the general public are "celebrity sheep" who will choose a car because they heard Leo or Sandra or Billy has purchased one.

    Maybe that's a "California" thing. I know FOR SURE that it is VERY far from the way my own personal circle of family and friends behave.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I have to disagree with you there, Lars. I know for example I bought my two Hyundais (one instead of a Prius) solely because of all the actors and actresses in Hollywood who own them. ;-)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Maybe that's a "California" thing. I know FOR SURE that it is VERY far from the way my own personal circle of family and friends behave.

    You proved you are not a follower. You did not buy a Prius you bought the more practical HCH. That does not account for the appeal for a car that has little or no advertising other than the celeb exposure. It got a lot of play in the auto magazines. What percentage of the American public reads them, maybe 1%.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    There are currently 330 GM-diesel-hybrid-equipped buses operating in North America. According to GM, if America’s nine largest cities were to replace their existing fleets of a combined 13,000 transit buses with hybrid buses, the nation would save approximately 40 million gallons of fuel a year. Let’s talk about that for a moment. Take a base cost of $600,000 for a diesel hybrid bus, and a $400,000 cost for a conventional bus (these figures are probably a bit low, but let’s assume that volume manufacturing would trim prices a bit.) Switching that 9-city fleet to diesel hybrids would cost an incremental $200,000 per bus, or $2.6 billion. At $2 a gallon, recouping that extra cost would take 32 years. At $5 a gallon, 13 years; $6 a gallon, 10.8 years—and now you’re getting into the range of the average age of bus fleets.

    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2004/09/more_gm_diesel_.html
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    I would bet Toyota gets a lot of sales of Priuses just from people coming into the dealership looking for "a good car" to buy.

    The Prius got "a lot of play in the auto magazines" and MADE THE NEWS elsewhere when it wins all those Car of the Year awards.

    "2004 North American Car of the Year."
    "Toyota Prius, European Car of the Year 2005"
    "Intellichoice Ranks Prius #1 in value - That means a Prius owner will pay less to own one for five years than any other model of that price."

    Those awards indicate a car with merit, and have nothing to do with celeb endorsements. The Prius is selling on it's MERITS more than anything else.

    Many cars are not advertised "specifically for that car" - just the maker doing an add and quickly mentioning the cars in the line. Maybe a page in a magazine here and there.

    Toyota has a lot of dealerships - many sales just fall into their laps.

    They have built a big bunch of their size on their "well deserved" repuation for good cars and trucks.
  • yerth10yerth10 Member Posts: 431
    A bus may be used for only 15 years (20 years max).

    The best thing will be to convert a Diesel bus to
    Diesel-Hybrid bus, this way, the transport company
    need not scrap the existing bus.

    I am sure, that lot of companies in Britain, Italy, India do the conversion of Diesel vehicles to run on CNG. There should be a way out.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The best thing will be to convert a Diesel bus to Diesel-Hybrid bus, this way, the transport company need not scrap the existing bus.

    Real good thought. I wonder if anyone is building a retro hybrid system? Most all the buses in San Diego are converted to CNG. Natural gas is more plentiful on the West coast than Midwest to Eastern US.
  • yerth10yerth10 Member Posts: 431
    There is a story of Fox telling the Lion that it is the king of the jungle.

    So to prove it, Fox takes Lion to the top of the hill and all the animals run away on seeing the Fox. Actually animals are running on Seeing the Lion.

    In the same way, Hollywood celebs are getting popular by riding the Prius and not the other way round.

    So Prius is the Lion.
    May be Escape Hybrid is Tiger, HAH, HCH are Panthers.

    Under the hill, so many Deers, Bisons, Zebras are roaming (pure ICE).
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Don't forget my white elephant the SUBURBAN :-)
  • yerth10yerth10 Member Posts: 431
    Gary : Please be careful - So many poachers are looking for Elephants Tusk & Bones for Ivory.

    If we can figure out how to convert a Diesel Bus to Diesel-Electric Bus, the next step is we have to find out how to Put 1 Suburban In and Get 1 Prius & 1 Escape Out.

    I mean when Gas prices hit $ 5 / gallon.
    Have a nice weekend folks.
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