Tonight's ABC Evening News indicates with strong warnings, the oil shortage potential. Reagan & Bush advisors have indicated that things are going from bad to near worse. They just happened to show a Toyota Prius while suggesting alternitive cars and fuels. Just another warning. Railroadjames(are we learning yet?)
It's Tuesday, so that means it's time for the first of our two weekly chat sessions. Tonight we'll talk Mazda and anything else that happens to come up!
Let's face it high oil prices are here to stay. As the author points out long term trend doesn't look very promising. I actually favor a higher gasoline tax to force people to conserve or drive a more fuel efficient vehicle.
After GM joined with DOE in developing a Fuel Cell Vehicle, now DC has also joined. Looks like with battery technology growing fast, there is pressure on fuel cell group to commercialise.
Plugins could precede the launch of Hydrogen powered vehicles. Fuel cells may join later.
Has GM seen the light ? - snip - General Motors isn't the powerhouse it used to be in the American car market, as its recent financial and sales troubles attest. But what the senior executives of the world's biggest car maker think about where the industry is headed still merits attention.
good article talking about how clean the Prius and other non-hybrid PZEV cars are and how certain automakers are fighting PZEV rules, when it only costs $100-$300 to engineer the PZEV into the car !! SHAMEFUL !!! :mad:
I hope they bring the diesel over. I'd rather have a Honda than a VW diesel.
Also, they aren't really competing against themselves. There are many diesel fans who will not, ever, buy a hybrid. So the diesel & hybrid civics are targeting different markets.
And finally, it's not accurate for the Honda spokesman to say they can't meet U.S. standards. That can be done (points to volkswagen diesels). What is difficult is meeting California's minimum LEV standard.
With GM's market capitalization so low, is there a chance that SAIC might turn around and buy GM, scrap all of the union contracts, cut health care benefits for everyone, and take advantage of GM's established dealer network and brands, and make a boat load of money. Something to think about.
To my surprize, there, on stage, sits my (baby blue) Prius. Tonight I smile again as the Prius stands tall and shines. To bad the contestant didn't win the hybrid. Oh well, Toyota got some good publicity. railroadjames(a little limelight doesn't hurt)
Yeah, I really liked that article, too. What I liked most is that the author took a realistic look at hybrids, the good and the bad, and decided to buy one. Better than "journalists" who do no research and just say "buy one, it's great - it gets 60 MPG!".
It would cost about $20,000 to manufacture and could replace a $65,000 Humvee, Almand said. The vehicles are expected to get about 50 miles per gallon, compared to the Humvee's current 11 mpg. "The more money we can save the better," Almand said.
They show the HCH and Prius as comparably priced, which is technically true, although the vast majority of the Priuses are selling with $3000-$5000 option packages.
Well I can't argue that $900 times 4 is $3600. I do question the gallons of gas saved figure. In our household, we have two vehicles, the wife's car gets about 25,000 per year and my car puts on like 7,500 So I'd argue that our vehicles average out to be fairly typical as far as the average miles driven per year per vehicle. For all of 2004, our auto fuel expenses total about $1982 for the two cars combined, or roughly $960 for our "typical" car. Just an estimate, but our average gas price for the year was probably around $1.90, meaning we used just over 500 gallons per vehicle. So that 408 gallons saved per year sound real high to me.
Again, there's not a lot of background info in the story. Saving 408 gallons compared to what?
There's also this paragraph:
"The surveys also showed that owners of about 200 diesel-powered cars are saving 388 gallons of fuel each year even though they drove 22 percent more miles than they had in the past."
I have to assume that we're talking about similar class vehicles there as well, since it doesn't state otherwise and comparing apples to oranges doesn't get me much useful info. I have doubts about figures that say I can drive 22% farther and use 388 fewer gallons of fuel than I was in a gasoline car in the same class. That would mean the mileage I was getting would have to increase by more than a factor of three, and that doens't make any sense if we're talking the same class of vehicle.
Some one switches from an SUV to a hybrid Civic or a diesel Jetta, I don't doubt that they're saving a LOT of gas.
The headline looks great. I'd like to see more about the surveys that were done as a class project.
I would have only saved $333 last year over driving my Suburban. That would take longer than a hybrid will last to pay off the difference. The best way to save money is to keep what you have and drive it less. We have argued this hybrid saving money to death, it just does not wash.
Studies are not 100% accurate. But they do usually reflect the facts of the people who contribute to the study. So I have no doubt at all that THOSE OWNERS saw a $900 savings themselves.
As always, YMMV. For example, in my own case, I traded a truck which made 13 MPG for my HCH, so my savings in FUEL ALONE will be about $1548 per year.
So each person can figure their own savings, but in some cases it will be extremely financially beneficial to "upgrade or downgrade" to a hybrid !!
This was reported as a survey, not a study. Were the respondents simply asked how much they saved? That's the point I was trying to make. There's NOTHING in the story except a report of "results" And you bring up one of my points about comparisons... you traded a truck for the HCH. You get no arguement from me that you're saving a lot of money on gas that way. That has nothing to do with whether paying the premium for a hybrid pays for itself. had you bought a non-hybrid Civic.
A DX model Civic at MSRP of $13,260 getting 32/38 mpg vs a HCH at $20,900 getting 48/47. Throw in your truck getting 13mpg too. Have to make some assumptions... one, we'll use the best case numbers for the hybrid, so 48 mpg for the hybrid vs 32 for the standard. A 50% increase in mileage. And then we'll say 15,000 miles per year and we'll give you $2.50/gallon for gas.
The truck: Will use 1153 gallons/year - $2882 in gas The Civic DX 468 gal/yr - $1170 The HCH 312gal/yr - $780
So yes, both Civic are MUCH smarter from a fuel use standpoint and will be saving you between 685 and 812 gallons of gas per year compared to your truck. (That's probably a bit inflated since the Civic numbers are EPA esitmates and I assume your truck mileage as approximately the real world number you were getting) So that's on the same order of gallons saved that's reported in the story. That's the hangup I have with "results" being trumpeted as it only taking 4 years for the "hybrid premium" to be payed off, and here's why...
Compare Civic to Civic Now we're talking saving 156 gal/year bewteen the two or $529. And with an MSRP difference of $7640, that's over 14 years to make up that cost difference, assuming you run it that long. That MSRP difference is the premium that everyone refers to. We can get into the back and forth about your paying more because you're getting more, but I don't buy that either. The cars are the same size, with the same room inside, look roughly the same, etc. The reason I'd trade in my Sentra (getting 36mpg) to buy the hybrid is supposed to be for the fuel savings, meaning both gallons and dollars. Lower operating costs is one of the biggest selling points. I won't be hostage to the prices at the pump.Money is what everyone, including yourself, is pointing towards. I'll have more if I drive a hybrid is what I'm hearing. Not it's going to take me 14+ years to get to break even.
This is a VERY good discussion BTW. Everyone is into it and passionate about it. Some agreeing to disagree is likely to be needed at times, but that's typical of a lot of these topics.
Onward and upward!
Just for 'disclaimer' purposes...I do not currently own a hybrid and really don't have plans to consider one at this time (understandble given my approach to the buying decision I think) but neither is one ruled out should the economics of them change. It's kind of that way with any cutting edge tech... it ALWAYS costs more to have the latest and greatest, be it in computers or newer automotive technologies.
Where on Earth do they dig up people who can only get 30 MPG out of a Honda Civic Hybrid? There HAS to be something wrong with that car's IMA system. I don't think I could consistenly get ONLY 30 MPG out of my HCH unless I absolutely FLOORED IT 100% of the time !!
Sticker says 47 MPG "but as Christine Tarango told NBC4, that was not the case. She said the best she ever got was about 30 mpg. "Sometimes it's as low as 29 mpg," Tarango said. "The only reason I bought this car was for the mileage, so I was pretty angry."
If you put them on TV, you can find anyone to say anything.
Again, not that I'm doubting the truth of the statements made, but you have to take a LOT of what you see and read in the "news" with a serious grain of salt!
Here is the latest list of most wanted vehicles for 2005. I don's see a hybrid in the lot. The Prius tied for 5th place in it's category. Not real popular outside this forum.
Good point. I think many people end up buying the Camry or Accord or Hyundai because they get more car for the money with those cars. They usually want what they cannot afford. This list is most wanted vehicles. Not most purchased vehicles. It is a reflection of vehicles that excite people. Hybrids are not that exciting to the average car buyer. The Camry & Accord are about as exciting as a bowl of oatmeal. If you asked a hundred people on the street what they think of hybrids you would get a blank stare.
You know, overall it looks like hybrids did pretty well in this poll. The #1 sedan under $25k was the Accord, and #5 was the Prius, in a very competitive class. I don't recall if Edmunds gave people an option to vote separately for the HAH in the under-$35k category. The Civic was #2 in the sedans under $15k category (again, I don't recall if the HCH was offered separately in the under-$25k category), and the Escape was #5 out of 17 small SUVs. So out of all the current hybrids, all but the Insight, which sells in miniscule numbers, had a pretty good showing.
quote gagrice-"Prius not real popular outside this forum."-end quote
Gary, your dry sense of humour kills me EVERY time !!
How about this:
94% Prius owner "would buy again" rating.
European Car of the Year 2005
Has topped "Green Car" listings AROUND the world.
On pace to sell about 105,000 in the USA this year.
The 2004 Toyota Prius was recently deemed “Best Engineered Vehicle of 2004” by the readers and editors of Automotive Engineering International, a publication of the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE).
The Prius was awarded the highly coveted Motor Trend 2004 “Car of the Year” award in late December.
Prius Wins Best Car Value Under $23,000 - (IntelliChoice) - 1/9/05
Toyota's Prius Captures PETA 2004 'Proggy Award' for Steering Clear of Leather - In recognition of its uncompromising stand not to equip its hot-selling gasoline-electric hybrid Prius with real leather seats and steering-wheel covers, automaker Toyota has won PETA’s Proggy "Breakthrough" Award. Proggys (short for progress) are awarded annually to companies who go the extra mile to offer humane products and services throughout North America. (PETA Media Center) - 12/29/04
Toyota Prius Wins European Car of the Year 2005 - (Car Pages UK) - 11/15/04
Prius Wins International Engine of the Year - The second-generation Toyota Prius won four of the eleven trophies in the sixth annual International Engine of the Year awards. - (MSN Autos) - 7/2/04
Toyota Prius to Receive Top Honors at 2004 Industrial Design Excellence Awards (Toyota Pressrooom) - 6/28/04
Toyota Prius Hybrid Powerplant Wins 2004 "International Engine of the Year" Award - The Sixth-Annual "International Engine of the Year" Award has been bestowed upon the 1.5-liter internal combustion engine/electric motor combo powering the 2004 Toyota Prius Hybrid. Already pronounced Motor Trend 's 2004 Car of the Year, its engine has also scooped up three other International Engine prizes for the "Best New Engine of 2004," "Best Fuel Economy Engine," and "Best 1.4-liter to 1.8-liter." The International Engine of the Year Awards have become one of the automotive industry's most sought-after automotive accolades and an effective marketing tool for triumphant marques. - (Motor Trend) - 5/26/04
Prius Named Highest Fuel Economy in Midsize Car (MSN Autos) - 3/6/04
TOP 10 Tech Cars - Toyota's acclaimed, and redesigned, Prius hybrid car also made the list for the second year in a row. (Newswise) - 2/27/04
Prius wins Automobile Magazine 2004 Design of the Year (Automobile Magazine) - 2/9/04
Prius Captures North American Car of the Year - (Toyota Pressroom) - 1/4/04
Motor Trend 2004 Car of the Year Winner: Toyota Prius - The all-new Toyota Prius, a roomy, feature-packed, and user-friendly gas/electric hybrid capable of delivering an astonishing 60 miles per gallon in city driving, is the 2004 Motor Trend Car of the Year. (Motor Trend) - 12/27/03
Fortune Magazine names Prius one of the 25 Best Products of the Year (Fortune Magazine) - 12/8/03
Motor Trend Announces 2004 Car of the Year - Toyota Prius is the first hybrid vehicle to Receive the Coveted Golden Calipers Award (Motor Trend) - 11/20/03
Prius wins Popular Science Best of What's New award for 2003
Oh, yes, only popular on the Edmund's board......Gary, you so funny !!!
Toyota's Prius Captures PETA 2004 'Proggy Award' for Steering Clear of Leather
Nice list of achievements. How will owners like it after the warranty expires? Some are finding out the hard way. I wonder if the above award means they will never offer the Prius with REAL leather seats. I agree that it is an engineering marvel. It is still too complex and expensive to be a mainstream automobile.
Well, the last I checked, NO modern car is very cheap to maintain after the warranty expires. That's what "extended warranties" are for.
I have bought them for every car since I owned a 1992 Infiniti Q45 that kept having failed fuel injectors at $645 a pop. Have had occasion to use almost every extended warranty I bought, too, unfortunately !!
Let's not try to "prove" anything to the other side here. Remember that you are going to see things their way just about the same time they see things your way.
There are times when you have to agree to disagree and move on.
These discussions are not a place to throw personal barbs at each other, so let's back off this before it gets out of hand.
Well done good and faithful defender of the "true car of the future", LARSH. You tabulated almost all the ackolades of the Prius and then some. Some I didn't even know. 94% satisfaction rating huh? Thats about as good as it gets. Gagrice, you can't deny the overwhelming success of "Prius". Its just awsome, ain't it? Prius envy is catching on around the country as I see it. Feels good to me. I hope Toyota comes out with a sport version soon with a sunroof or maybe even a convertable . Yessssssss thats the future!! Culliganman (free us Prius) :surprise:
I think it's more than Prius envy that has lots of people going, it's HYBRID envy. It is in the new every day!!! Gotta believe!! GO HYBRID!!! Now.. back to the news.....
Battery cost in the future is an unknown, yes. The relatively long warranty in CA and some other states (10 years/150k miles) helps in that respect. But most cars on the road today have expensive sub-systems, including a myriad of computers, and many cars have expensive components like video nav screens (ala Prius and HAH). Some hybrid components, such as the "transmission" on the Prius, are actually simpler than like components on other cars. So I don't agree with the article on their picking on the "sub-systems" of hybrids when they ignore the same issue with many other vehicles on the road.
"So I don't agree with the article on their picking on the "sub-systems" of hybrids when they ignore the same issue with many other vehicles on the road."
Your other "sub-systems" on regular cars are time tested, and actually very cheap (cost wise). The computers on normal cars are more independent and do not have need the cohesion required in the HSD. Hence, there is less likelyhood of what is known as "cascading failures" in the overall system with a conventional car. And it must be pointed out that, for any stipulated risk in using computers in conventional cars, the Prius has more risks due to the introduction of computer controlled mixed (ICE/Electric) propulsion systems. In other words, the Prius has all the risks of a conventional ICE car, plus additional risks associated with new technology. So the Prius is automatically more at risk for software errors than conventional cars.
The Prius is entirely different in it's software integration, and is charting new territory. Hopefully they tested it all well in the lab, or it will be very bad.
Think Microsoft BSOD at 50 MPH...
I'm not saying it will definitely happen; I am saying that as computer integrated systems get more complex, they become more vulnerable to systemic computer programming problems.
Comments
Railroadjames(are we learning yet?)
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.
Unfortunately true. 100% Biodiesel freezes at about the same point as water.
However, biodiesel is still good for other warmer places, like New York City, which is now converting from CNG buses to biodiesel-electric buses.
And of course there's just straight sulfur-free diesel, which works even in Alaska.
troy
http://www.nationalreview.com/gaffney/gaffney200503290758.asp
http://www.autoextremist.com/research/reports.html#hybrid
.
No you just mix 50-50 bio-to-dino diesel, and that lowers the freeze point to about -20.
troy
Let's face it high oil prices are here to stay. As the author points out long term trend doesn't look very promising. I actually favor a higher gasoline tax to force people to conserve or drive a more fuel efficient vehicle.
Plugins could precede the launch of Hydrogen powered vehicles. Fuel cells may join later.
http://online.wsj.com/public/article/0,,SB111297060817401992,00.html?mod=todays_free_featu- re
High Bread Hybrid
http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=communique&newsid=8192
PZEV = 0.2 credit toward the ZEV requirement
AT-PZEV = 0.4 credit toward the ZEV requirement.
The car-makers got what they wanted..... some breathing room..... but they still aren't satisfied. Now they want to abolish the rule completely.
Why are you surprised?
I'm not.
http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=102192
.
I hope they bring the diesel over. I'd rather have a Honda than a VW diesel.
Also, they aren't really competing against themselves. There are many diesel fans who will not, ever, buy a hybrid. So the diesel & hybrid civics are targeting different markets.
And finally, it's not accurate for the Honda spokesman to say they can't meet U.S. standards. That can be done (points to volkswagen diesels). What is difficult is meeting California's minimum LEV standard.
troy
Something to think about.
http://www.businessweek.com/@@ZinZg4cQNjL@TRoA/magazine/content/05_17/b3930138_mz070.htm
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7573849/
railroadjames(a little limelight doesn't hurt)
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7573849/
Yeah, I really liked that article, too. What I liked most is that the author took a realistic look at hybrids, the good and the bad, and decided to buy one. Better than "journalists" who do no research and just say "buy one, it's great - it gets 60 MPG!".
It would cost about $20,000 to manufacture and could replace a $65,000 Humvee, Almand said. The vehicles are expected to get about 50 miles per gallon, compared to the Humvee's current 11 mpg. "The more money we can save the better," Almand said.
http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,67271,00.html?tw=wn_2techhead
Mike
"Since the introduction of hybrid vehicles in 2000, Polk executives said the market has grown by more than 960 percent."
http://www.autoremarketing.com/ar/news/story.html?id=3477
Is this the fastest growing automobile technology today or what?
http://biz.yahoo.com/special/hybrid05.html
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http://www.rocklintoday.com/news/templates/automotive_news.asp?
articleid=1998&zoneid=1
Again, there's not a lot of background info in the story. Saving 408 gallons compared to what?
There's also this paragraph:
"The surveys also showed that owners of about 200 diesel-powered cars are saving 388 gallons of fuel each year even though they drove 22 percent more miles than they had in the past."
I have to assume that we're talking about similar class vehicles there as well, since it doesn't state otherwise and comparing apples to oranges doesn't get me much useful info.
I have doubts about figures that say I can drive 22% farther and use 388 fewer gallons of fuel than I was in a gasoline car in the same class. That would mean the mileage I was getting would have to increase by more than a factor of three, and that doens't make any sense if we're talking the same class of vehicle.
Some one switches from an SUV to a hybrid Civic or a diesel Jetta, I don't doubt that they're saving a LOT of gas.
The headline looks great. I'd like to see more about the surveys that were done as a class project.
As always, YMMV. For example, in my own case, I traded a truck which made 13 MPG for my HCH, so my savings in FUEL ALONE will be about $1548 per year.
So each person can figure their own savings, but in some cases it will be extremely financially beneficial to "upgrade or downgrade" to a hybrid !!
And you bring up one of my points about comparisons... you traded a truck for the HCH. You get no arguement from me that you're saving a lot of money on gas that way. That has nothing to do with whether paying the premium for a hybrid pays for itself. had you bought a non-hybrid Civic.
A DX model Civic at MSRP of $13,260 getting 32/38 mpg vs a HCH at $20,900 getting 48/47. Throw in your truck getting 13mpg too. Have to make some assumptions... one, we'll use the best case numbers for the hybrid, so 48 mpg for the hybrid vs 32 for the standard. A 50% increase in mileage. And then we'll say 15,000 miles per year and we'll give you $2.50/gallon for gas.
The truck:
Will use 1153 gallons/year - $2882 in gas
The Civic DX
468 gal/yr - $1170
The HCH
312gal/yr - $780
So yes, both Civic are MUCH smarter from a fuel use standpoint and will be saving you between 685 and 812 gallons of gas per year compared to your truck. (That's probably a bit inflated since the Civic numbers are EPA esitmates and I assume your truck mileage as approximately the real world number you were getting) So that's on the same order of gallons saved that's reported in the story. That's the hangup I have with "results" being trumpeted as it only taking 4 years for the "hybrid premium" to be payed off, and here's why...
Compare Civic to Civic Now we're talking saving 156 gal/year bewteen the two or $529. And with an MSRP difference of $7640, that's over 14 years to make up that cost difference, assuming you run it that long. That MSRP difference is the premium that everyone refers to. We can get into the back and forth about your paying more because you're getting more, but I don't buy that either. The cars are the same size, with the same room inside, look roughly the same, etc. The reason I'd trade in my Sentra (getting 36mpg) to buy the hybrid is supposed to be for the fuel savings, meaning both gallons and dollars. Lower operating costs is one of the biggest selling points. I won't be hostage to the prices at the pump.Money is what everyone, including yourself, is pointing towards. I'll have more if I drive a hybrid is what I'm hearing.
Not it's going to take me 14+ years to get to break even.
This is a VERY good discussion BTW. Everyone is into it and passionate about it. Some agreeing to disagree is likely to be needed at times, but that's typical of a lot of these topics.
Onward and upward!
Just for 'disclaimer' purposes...I do not currently own a hybrid and really don't have plans to consider one at this time (understandble given my approach to the buying decision I think) but neither is one ruled out should the economics of them change. It's kind of that way with any cutting edge tech... it ALWAYS costs more to have the latest and greatest, be it in computers or newer automotive technologies.
Sticker says 47 MPG "but as Christine Tarango told NBC4, that was not the case. She said the best she ever got was about 30 mpg. "Sometimes it's as low as 29 mpg," Tarango said. "The only reason I bought this car was for the mileage, so I was pretty angry."
http://www.nbc4.tv/automotive/4450230/detail.html
But then, who doesn't, except for like 2 months out of the year?
Again, not that I'm doubting the truth of the statements made, but you have to take a LOT of what you see and read in the "news" with a serious grain of salt!
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http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/consumersmostwanted/2005/index.html
Gary, your dry sense of humour kills me EVERY time !!
How about this:
94% Prius owner "would buy again" rating.
European Car of the Year 2005
Has topped "Green Car" listings AROUND the world.
On pace to sell about 105,000 in the USA this year.
The 2004 Toyota Prius was recently deemed “Best Engineered Vehicle of 2004” by the readers and editors of Automotive Engineering International, a publication of the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE).
The Prius was awarded the highly coveted Motor Trend 2004 “Car of the Year” award in late December.
Prius Wins Best Car Value Under $23,000 - (IntelliChoice) - 1/9/05
Toyota's Prius Captures PETA 2004 'Proggy Award' for Steering Clear of Leather - In recognition of its uncompromising stand not to equip its hot-selling gasoline-electric hybrid Prius with real leather seats and steering-wheel covers, automaker Toyota has won PETA’s Proggy "Breakthrough" Award. Proggys (short for progress) are awarded annually to companies who go the extra mile to offer humane products and services throughout North America. (PETA Media Center) - 12/29/04
Toyota Prius Wins European Car of the Year 2005 - (Car Pages UK) - 11/15/04
Prius Wins International Engine of the Year - The second-generation Toyota Prius won four of the eleven trophies in the sixth annual International Engine of the Year awards. - (MSN Autos) - 7/2/04
Toyota Prius to Receive Top Honors at 2004 Industrial Design Excellence Awards (Toyota Pressrooom) - 6/28/04
Toyota Prius Hybrid Powerplant Wins 2004 "International Engine of the Year" Award - The Sixth-Annual "International Engine of the Year" Award has been bestowed upon the 1.5-liter internal combustion engine/electric motor combo powering the 2004 Toyota Prius Hybrid. Already pronounced Motor Trend 's 2004 Car of the Year, its engine has also scooped up three other International Engine prizes for the "Best New Engine of 2004," "Best Fuel Economy Engine," and "Best 1.4-liter to 1.8-liter." The International Engine of the Year Awards have become one of the automotive industry's most sought-after automotive accolades and an effective marketing tool for triumphant marques. - (Motor Trend) - 5/26/04
Prius Named Highest Fuel Economy in Midsize Car (MSN Autos) - 3/6/04
TOP 10 Tech Cars - Toyota's acclaimed, and redesigned, Prius hybrid car also made the list for the second year in a row. (Newswise) - 2/27/04
Prius wins Automobile Magazine 2004 Design of the Year (Automobile Magazine) - 2/9/04
Prius Captures North American Car of the Year - (Toyota Pressroom) - 1/4/04
Motor Trend 2004 Car of the Year Winner: Toyota Prius - The all-new Toyota Prius, a roomy, feature-packed, and user-friendly gas/electric hybrid capable of delivering an astonishing 60 miles per gallon in city driving, is the 2004 Motor Trend Car of the Year. (Motor Trend) - 12/27/03
Fortune Magazine names Prius one of the 25 Best Products of the Year (Fortune Magazine) - 12/8/03
Motor Trend Announces 2004 Car of the Year - Toyota Prius is the first hybrid vehicle to Receive the Coveted Golden Calipers Award (Motor Trend) - 11/20/03
Prius wins Popular Science Best of What's New award for 2003
Oh, yes, only popular on the Edmund's board......Gary, you so funny !!!
Nice list of achievements. How will owners like it after the warranty expires? Some are finding out the hard way. I wonder if the above award means they will never offer the Prius with REAL leather seats. I agree that it is an engineering marvel. It is still too complex and expensive to be a mainstream automobile.
I have bought them for every car since I owned a 1992 Infiniti Q45 that kept having failed fuel injectors at $645 a pop. Have had occasion to use almost every extended warranty I bought, too, unfortunately !!
There are times when you have to agree to disagree and move on.
These discussions are not a place to throw personal barbs at each other, so let's back off this before it gets out of hand.
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http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/04/04/fairley0404.asp?p=0
Culliganman (free us Prius) :surprise:
Your other "sub-systems" on regular cars are time tested, and actually very cheap (cost wise). The computers on normal cars are more independent and do not have need the cohesion required in the HSD. Hence, there is less likelyhood of what is known as "cascading failures" in the overall system with a conventional car. And it must be pointed out that, for any stipulated risk in using computers in conventional cars, the Prius has more risks due to the introduction of computer controlled mixed (ICE/Electric) propulsion systems. In other words, the Prius has all the risks of a conventional ICE car, plus additional risks associated with new technology. So the Prius is automatically more at risk for software errors than conventional cars.
The Prius is entirely different in it's software integration, and is charting new territory. Hopefully they tested it all well in the lab, or it will be very bad.
Think Microsoft BSOD at 50 MPH...
I'm not saying it will definitely happen; I am saying that as computer integrated systems get more complex, they become more vulnerable to systemic computer programming problems.