Hybrids in the News

backy

The question was about long-term maintenance costs. I'm in software, and I'm not aware that changing the software in onboard computers is an expensive process for owners. Anyway, there's LOTS of software in traditional cars--for engine management, brakes management, ESC management, nav systems, etc.

If you dig into the reliability issues in marques like MB, you'll see a lot of it is due to electronics. So maybe the sub-systems on regular cars aren't as time-tested as one might think.

falconone

I've had my share of high end German cars and they seem to have one thing in common. Way too many electrical/computer related problems. I love the feeling of a high end German sedan, but sometimes I just want to throw up my hands. I'd rather put my trust in a Prius than buy another Audi. Wonderfully crafted cars, just lousy electronics.

sunbyrne

Article here:

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/articles/050509/9hybrid.htm

No registration required. Name similarity is not coincidence.

mirth

Not much new here. Basically, upper middle class and higher shoppers are paying a premium for hybrids, but all the experts doubt that anyone else will.

The thing about GM dismantling the Prius and finding 42 percent more parts than a Malibu was interesting. To me, that indicates "84% more likely to have something break down".

sinepman

Oh yes... most GM cars have less parts than their hybrid counterparts but break down more often. Makes you wonder???? Thanks,,, I'll stick with Toyota on this one. GM reliability overall stinks!! My friend has had 3 transmissions in his Saturn VUE. They even gave him a NEW VUE under the Lemon Law and he STILL had tranny problems!!!

stevedebi

"I've had my share of high end German cars and they seem to have one thing in common. Way too many electrical/computer related problems. I love the feeling of a high end German sedan, but sometimes I just want to throw up my hands. I'd rather put my trust in a Prius than buy another Audi. Wonderfully crafted cars, just lousy electronics."

You guys do realize that you are making my point about the criticality of software, and no one has countered the argument that, whatever the risk with normal cars, the Prius has an increased risk due to complexity.

It is not a very strong argument for the Prius to say "well, it won't break as bad as a German car".

backy

Risk of what? Failure? Risk of failure is a function of reliability of each component times number of components (i.e., those components that are susceptible to failure). An increase in the number of components will increase risk of failure. But an increase in the reliability (decrease in failure rate) will decrease the overall risk of failure. I think that may be what falconone was referring to. Also, I haven't heard anyone state with certainty that a Prius has more components than, say, a Mercedes or an Audi.

stevedebi

"Also, I haven't heard anyone state with certainty that a Prius has more components than, say, a Mercedes or an Audi."

OK, I'll say it. The Prius has more components than a Mercedes or an Audi. Neither of these two cars has a second drive system powered by electric energy, which is controlled by computers.

One could argue that the Prius doesn't have a conventional drivetrain (which saves some components), but drivetrain components and their computer controls are well known and established technology.

Granted that an increase in reliability will overcome risk. But that is the whole question, isn't it - how thorough was the Prius testing of the integrated software?

gagrice

Prius has an increased risk due to complexity.

At least a dozen people have had their Prius just quit at most inopportune times. They had to be towed in to Toyota and all that was done is a computer reset, which means it could happen again. If anyone out there can link to an Edmund's thread showing Any other car that has had that many "Found on Road Dead" failures in the last year, I would shut up about this glaring problem with the Prius.

backy

Saying it doesn't prove it. The Prius doesn't have electric motors (multiple) in each seat (front and rear, in some cases), plus all the electronics for that. It doesn't have the components of a power moonroof. It doesn't have the complexity of an "iDrive." It doesn't have 8 cylinders, with correspondingly more parts to the engine. How many parts are in a 6 or 7 speed automatic transmission? That is relatively new automotive technology also (actually newer than the original Prius).

Like other people have stated... based on the track record of hybrids like the HCH and Prius, and the track record of Honda and Toyota, my bet is that their hybrids will hold up better over time than most other cars on the road.

backy

Twelve cars out of how many sold? What is the failure rate? How does it compare to the failure rate for other cars? And the repair was a computer reset? How much did that cost to do?

There's lots of stories out there about catastrophic transmission failures and cooling system failures on other cars that stop them in their tracks. Twelve cars with computer problems doesn't seem like a big problem to me.

falconone

There was a problem with the software that in early 2004 models. No one with the 2005 models has had any problems once the ECU has been reflashed. I'd like to see your TDI hold a candle to the Prius in terms of reliability. I've said it before and I'll say it again, when you have entire websites devoted to cars like VWs that have plenty of problems, it makes you want to go hmmmmmmmmm. Oh.. did you hear the good news? The Camry is going to have a hybrid drivetrain for 2006. Way to go!!! Go hybrid!! You' ll love it!

falconone

Yeah Gary... I hear all the Hollyood starlets have traded in their Prii because they got stuck on the Santa Monica freeway. It looks like you're back to your hybrid envy antics again. Gotta love it!!! Picture this... the year is 2016... Gary is still posting his distrust for hybrids and they've now got a 35% penetration rate. Gotta love them hybrids!!

gagrice

The only hybrid that is on the drawing board that I would consider is the MB "R" Class diesel hybrid that may be in NA next year. If that car comes out I would sell the Passat and buy the MB. It is a great looking wagon. Nothing Toyota has on it's plate is in the least bit tempting. You should visit the Passat TDI threads. You would find people just as enthusiatic about the TDI as the Prius is here.

gagrice

How does it compare to the failure rate for other cars? And the repair was a computer reset? How much did that cost to do?

You tell me what new car has left more people stranded than the Prius.
It was not the fact that they just reset the computer. It is getting towed that would turn me off. If 12 people on Edmund's encountered this problem, how many hundreds that did not post there complaint. One service manager was quoted as saying this is a common problem with the Prius II. Maybe it is fixed now. There has not been a failure posted for a few weeks. To act like it is not a black mark on the reliability is somewhat deceptive.

railroadjames

The thing is Gary, the sky isn't falling and your intense retorhic and constant nay-saying of the Prius do nothing but fortify your stand (alone) against the hybrids. I'm sure if you keep digging you'll find something to put the hybrids into the "watchit" catigory. I've had nothing, I repeat, nothing to complain about with my Prius. I've yet to come across anyone who has, except the few that you point out here in these threads. Exaggeration is many times the nicest form of compliment to come the hybrids way even if it's negitive comments that are blown out of proportion. Hybrids are without a doubt, the sign of the times. Unfortunitly G.M. and Chrysler are lagging way behind and it will be a long dry spell B/4 they catch up. Ford, at least, is moving their butts and R&D isn't ashamed of their effort to hybridize their first vehicle this year. In the future you might try reading up on the FACTS that we keep tossing your way that tell the praises of the 2nd generation Prius and other hybrids.
Last point ....Try not to be so desperate....it really is a bit obvious. You just don't like our cars...and yet you've yet to really drive one or have you? The proof is in the pudding.
The Prius is reasonably quick, roomy, well designed, attractive, thrifty, and GREEN. What more can one ask?
Railroadjames(free us Prius)

gagrice

I would never want to dampen your enthusiasm for the Prius. Yes I have test driven the 2000 twice and liked it. It was the problems posted here that got me to back off. First off I would have bought when they were $20k out the door with full B to B 8 year 100k mile warranty. I thought that was a good deal at the time. By the time the Prius II was out there were other needs & more questions than answers. My buying decision was a compromise. I wanted a car that handles and stops with the best. I wanted a car that has good passing power on long uphill stretches. I wanted a wagon for trips on the highway. Good mileage is a plus but not imperative. The Prius or none of the other hybrids fit my needs in a car. I can wait and if Mercedes comes through with a diesel hybrid, I may join you & Leo on the bandwagon.

railroadjames

Let's start by saying that, as you pointed out, you test drove a 2000...right? Well that one is no 2ND GEN. PRIUS. The newer 2nd gen., with its hatchback is so much more roomy and capable of carrying large objects it's amazing. You say...milage is not imperative....wow! Your a rare breed for that. I've not come across anyone lately that has been anything but CONCERNED about gas prices & gas consumption. As to more questions about the Prius....All I hear is where & when can I get one? Please feel free to test drive a 2nd gen. Prius soon then tell us all what you think. Taste the pudding not the day-old bread.
Railroadjames( a Prius is in YOUR future)

stevewa

Ever driven a modern car with an automatic transmission? Those things are full of computers, and they DO fail, to the tune of $3K depending on the car. Modern engine management systems DO fail to the tune of $1K or more. Electronic Throttle Modules DO fail to the tune of up to $1K.

None of these things are unique to Hybrid vehicles. They are components of all late-model cars.

In 59000 miles I've replaced exactly one $18 relay in our Prius. That's pretty good. Any by the way, while that relay did throw diagnostic codes and prevented the engine from starting on the first try, it consistently started on the second attempt. At this point I have less than $100 in maintenance/repair on the Prius. Want to guess how much I spent on the 2000 Volvo in fewer miles?

stevewa

Consumer Reports doesn't seem to think it's much of a problem. They heartily reccomend the Prius.

falconone

...of all the Auto news journals? Why haven't the mainstream publications which are constantly reporting on hybrids, not telling us about the terrible problems the Prius is having? You know why? Because there are no problems!! Why is GM begging Toyota to share their hybrid technology? Why is Nissan paying Toyota millions to license their hybrid technology? I guess according to some folks who are jealous of the hybrids (it's so obvious isn't it?) the other manufacturers want their cars to be stranded on the highway too. It's amazing how desperate some people are that they hang out on hybrid forums and too try and disuade others from joining the fray? It seems odd, don't you think? Hybrids are here to stay, the Prius alone has a 94% satisfaction red and tons of red dots from Consumer Reports. I don't see GM or VW swimming in red dots... tons of BLACK dots.. speaks volumes!!

sinepman

It's amazing that someone so hell bent on frequenting these hybrid forums is determined to dent everyone's enthusiasm. What do you suppose his agenda really is? I wish I majored in psychology!! :P

PF_Flyer

Let's keep this focused on Hybrids in the News and not start yet another version of the ongoing quest to prove or disprove anything about hybrids.

Thanks for your cooperation and participation.

PF Flyer
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News & Views, Wagons, & Hybrid Vehicles

timber104

:confuse: Hello All,

Can anyone tell me if the information I was given is true?

I was at an auto body shop today talking about the hybrids on the market and was told there may be an up coming class action suit against Toyota for the Prius. The reason was the EPA was rating the Prius at 55/61 MPG, and most owners are getting around 30 MPG far less than what was told to them. Toyota is doing nothing about the difference from what real people are getting and the EPA rating.

Also, there were to be some major changes to the 2006 Prius, does anyone know what they are and if it will effect the price?

Please let me know what you have heard.

Thanks :

backy

It is not true on multiple counts:

1) The EPA rating on the Prius is 60/51, not 55/61.
2) Based on all the evidence available (owner reports at, e.g., Edmunds.com, greenhybrid.com, ya-something.com, and long term third-party tests over real-world conditions), most owners are getting far better than 30 mpg. Low-to-mid 40s seems common, with some owners reporting 50+ average.
3) Toyota doesn't have to do anything about the difference from what real people are getting and the EPA rating. The EPA rating is an estimate of fuel economy, and every new car has a window sticker that has a caveat to this effect.

I hope whatever judge this goes to throws it out in a nanosecond.

falconone

I think the person that started the lawsuit is the same person that found a partial finger in their chili at Wendy's. This is what clogs up or judicial system. Frivilous lawsuits.

Not sure if the 2006 Prius is going to have anything major done to it. It may have some of the enhancements available to the European Prius.

stevedebi

The problems listed on the "Prius Software Problems" board did not require a CPU "reset", they reprogrammed the computer, apparently using the same software. This is different than a reset. And we have no evidence that it is just an early 2004 problem, I think a couple of the cars were 2005 models. There are about 25 such failures on the NHTSB site.

Apologies to the Prius enthusiasts, but the Prius is more succeptable to multiple software errors. I have a feeling that they haven't yet entirely worked out the code.

RE: Complexity of automtive systems. Can anyone name me a conventional car that has had transmission failure because of a faulty computer?

falconone

I wonder if the Lexus will encounter those problems. I believe it uses very similar code.

backy

Apologies to the Prius enthusiasts, but the Prius is more succeptable to multiple software errors.

So to be clear... these problems reported on the Prius Software Problems discussion and the NHTSA site involved failures in multiple computers, supporting your assertion that the Prius is more succeptable to multiple software failures? Or were all the failures on the same computer?

Re complexity... there is such a thing as mechanical complexity also, and problems due to the application of new technologies in mechanical components. For example, the recall by Honda of 1 million 5-speed automatic transmissions on the Accord. One example of transmission problems due to software is the problem on the Mazda MPV's 5-speed transmission, which required a software reprogramming to fix. Was it a transmission failure? Not yet. Was it a significant problem for owners? Seems to be, reading the complaints about it. Would the problem have caused a failure if not repaired? We don't know, but the slamming that occured can't be kind to transmissions.

Somewhat lost in all this is that the original news report we are talking about was regarding the long-term maintenance costs of hybrids. Reprogramming of a computer, especially under warranty, represents no costs to owners except some inconvenience.

backy

Here is a specific example, which you requested, of a conventional car that had a transmission failure (actually multiple failures) because of a faulty computer:

maks898, "Volkswagen Jetta" #12429, 11 May 2005 1:40 am

falconone

I'm not surprised number one. And number two... I am NOT surprised it is a VW. It looks like all cars today are at the mercy of computer code.

falconone

Only 13 reports? I figured there would be more! The link does not work. Please shorten it at tinyurl.com

sinepman

http://tinyurl.com/d259b

Toyota claims it is a software update which many people have been saying all along. I am glad they have a fix for it.
PLEASE SCROLL DOWN FOR THE BLURB

refields

I get an average of ~62 MPG in my girlfriend's 2005 Prius while she gets more like 55 MPG. A lot of it is driving habits. I think the average American doesn't have a clue how to drive economically and a lot think the gas pedal is a binary device. A lot of the issue isn't the car at all but the drivers. Some people get great mileage and some get lousy. A lot of it is technique.

That said, I have a 2005 Honda Civic Hybrid. I regularly (however regular you can be with just 8 tanks of gas through it so far) get 49 to 54 MPG on a tank. One thing I have done some experimentation with though is gas grade. I get more like 46 to 48 MPG on both regular and premium but hit the higher numbers on mid-grade.

The dealers/manufacturers need to stress that technique, gas grade, and things like tire inflation will all have a huge effect on the mileage.

These effects are also there on the big American cars. It's just that most big American cars don't tell you your mileage in real time so people don't notice. And once again, the average American driver doesn't bother to even calculate gas mileage.

It's not the cars. It's a people issue. Americans are used to hopping in and mashing the pedal to the floor. The American cars just don't have the same expecatations of high mileage and people don't keep track of it.

larsb

Hybrid Camry to be built in Kentucky, USA. I guess they overcame the infamous and urban legendish "pollution" factor, eh?

http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/business/11667942.htm

gagrice

I guess they overcame the infamous and urban legendish "pollution" factor, eh?

I seriously doubt that. There is a big difference between manufacturing and assembling. Toyota does not manufacture vehicles in the USA, they assemble parts manufactured in third world countries under very loose pollution laws. You think maybe Toyota squeezed a big tax break out of Kentucky on this expansion? When they start manufacturing the batteries, electric motors, control modules and engines in the US at the going wages for the industry, I will believe they are not greedy scoundrels. I'm glad Kentucky got them instead of CA. We have more than enough low paying jobs. If the average Toyota employee was in the demographic that buy the hybrids I would feel differently. How many are making $100k per year?

sinepman

At least some of the Asian manufacturers are putting Americans to work. I don't see VW doing that!!!!!!!!! Oh yes, they do build 'em in Mexico. LOL!!

gagrice

I believe that VW was one of the first foreign automakers to build factories in the USA. As I remember the 1970s VW Rabbit was totally built in the USA. In fact one PA municipality passed a mandate that all city vehicles would be 100% US made and the VW Rabbit PU truck was the ONLY vehicle that qualified.

backy

Toyota does make engines in Georgetown. They don't manufacture the batteries themselves, so you'll need to talk to the battery manufacturers about that one.

How many Americans overall make over $100k (i.e., that is not an average wage by any stretch)? At least Toyota is going to build hybrids in the U.S. Kentucky seemed quite tickled to land the Camry hybrid.

gagrice

How many Americans overall make over $100k

Prius buyers according to Toyota. That is the market they are shooting for. The cost of living in Kentucky is much lower than CA, they can afford to work for lower wages. How many Toyota's are built in high wage areas?

My point is, I don't believe they could make the batteries here due to stringent environmental regulations. We want clean cars, just not the dirty manufacturing aspects of those clean burning cars. I feel if it cannot be built here it should not be sold here. Cleaning our environment is a global effort.

larsb

The average income of the average US car buyer is $89K. So buyers at $100K is not that much above the norm.

I have already posted previously a PDF file which shows that pollution created by hybrids is SLIGHTLY, VERY SLIGHTLY higher than pollution created by a comparable non-hybrid.

However:

The Lifetime pollution figure of the non-hybrid car VASTLY overtakes the hybrid (by about 35% ) when the entire lifetime of the two cars (including recycle) is taken into account.

And if Toyota squeezed a big tax break out of Kentucky, so what? That's how business is done in the world today. This is not 1950.

And also, last I checked, auto workers have a Union and make a pretty decent salary, not minimum wage by any stretch.....:D

Good for Toyota, Good for Kentucky, and VIVA the Hybrid Revolution !!

larsb

quote gagrice-"just not the dirty manufacturing aspects of those clean burning cars. I feel if it cannot be built here it should not be sold here. Cleaning our environment is a global effort."-end quote

You REALLY need to reconsider the idea that creating these batteries is such a pollution-creating event....It's not...

Japan is VERY SERIOUS about cutting global pollution - remember, they are a fairly small land mass, and most of the pollution they create DIRECTLY affects their everyday life....They are not creating a Toxic Island, creating Earth-Destroying batteries and killing off the populace, my Gosh !!!

maxhonda99

"Toyota does not manufacture vehicles in the USA, they assemble parts manufactured in third world countries under very loose pollution laws."

Oh..please.

A majority of the parts that go into Camry's built in the US are made in the US or Canada. The engines are made here, the interior trim comes from US suppliers, the sheetmetal is manufactured in the US.

sinepman

Don't try and convince the old man. He needs to vent as he has serious hybrid envy. I hear that its quite contagious!!! :P

falconone

I think some people are just fearful of the unknown. It seems to happen more in the elderly, and that's to be expected.

PF_Flyer

Let's drop the personal comments and stick to the topics please.

PF Flyer
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News & Views, Wagons, & Hybrid Vehicles

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gagrice

According to a quick search on Google. The average auto worker at both Toyota & Nissan make under $21 per hour. The top skilled trade workers are paid $25 per hour. According to my calculations based on the average 2080 hours per year those folks are making $44k to $52k per year, about half of the Larsb $89k average car buyer earnings. Even what you consider over paid UAW workers are only making a top skilled wage of $63k per year. It looks like only us guys hanging around on Edmund's Forum all day make the average or better wage. If you really believe the average car buyer in this country makes $89k, you hang out with far different Americans than I do.

As far as me and hybrid envy. That would mean my negative comments on the viability of hybrids translates into, "I want it real bad". Sorry, I am not an envious person. I want something I go out and make enough money to buy it. Now if we were discussing the practicality of owning a $900,000 Porsche, envy may become an issue.

Back to the news. Looks like good old Toyota is showing their benevolence to Portland Oregon. Wow look at those big wages they are paying. And the cost of living in Portland ain't cheap.

Toyota's commitment to the city means 200 family wage jobs will stay in North Portland — jobs that average $40,000 per year in salary.

http://www.flypdx.com/Toyota_Home.aspx

falconone

At least they're not like VW and paying $3.00 per day to the Mexicans in Mexico. Shame on them!!

falconone

Maybe he meant household income. That sounds a bit high though. Most of my friends earn over 100,000, but only some of them have a Prius. Those are the smart ones.

backy

Hyundai Motor Co. and affiliate Kia Motors Corp. have moved up their schedule for introducing hybrid cars to the United States. They now expect to do so by late next year, a Hyundai executive says.

http://www.mixedpower.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=510

Could be the first sub-$15k hybrids.