Hybrids in the News

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  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    updated As of 5/17/05

    "We have been alerted to the fact that some owners might have a problem," Toyota spokesman John Hansen told Reuters. "We are going to go back to our service records to find out what owners have had a problem like this and how many."

    http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2005-05-16-prius_x.htm
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Sounds like this Forum is read by many:

    while Edmunds.com, a popular vehicle-information and shopping site, has had 13 individuals post complaints in a Prius forum. Some of the cars that shut down had to be towed to the shop before they could be restarted.

    The newspaper quotes an official from Toyota as saying the stalling problem is due to a software glitch in its sophisticated computer system.

    http://money.cnn.com/2005/05/16/Autos/prius_computer/?cnn=yes
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    DETROIT (Reuters) - Toyota Motor Corp. (7203.T: Quote, Profile, Research) said on Monday it is looking into complaints in the United States that its popular Prius hybrid car suddenly stalled or shut down, often at high speeds on highways.

    http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsArticle.jhtml?type=technologyNews&storyID=8506801&section=new- s&src=rss/uk/technologyNews
  • jeffmcjeffmc Member Posts: 1,742
    Surprised to see no mention in this forum yet. This bill includes sales tax exemption for hybrids making over 40MPG starting in 2009. Not mentioned 'til late in the story, but all of this hinges on Oregon also adopting CA emissions standards.

    http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/223392_gemissions09.html?searchpagefrom=1&searchdiff=9-
  • gshocksvgshocksv Member Posts: 77
    Lies, damn lies, statistics. I think it's just amazing that people are throwing around stats, someone "googled" for the average of auto workers and think that's accurate? Or average car buying American make $89,000? I think we would rather see more reliable sources.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    I believe the median household income in the use is somewhere between 35-40k according to government statistics.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    It appears that many folks who have NOT had the software update on their Prius have a highly unlikely risk of failure. It is quite obvious that the new models do not have this issue. The ECU has to be reflashed. Too bad some other manufactuers such as VW can't seem to get their act together. Their VW Toureg has tons and tons of quality and service issues. Their new auto trannies are failing at an alarming rate. You'd have to be crazy to consider a VW. Interesting how the new Prius has delivered over 80,000 copies to the US and only 13 reports. I wonder why the European Prius hasn't had this problem. It is JUST a software update. Long live the hybrids!!!
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,242
    Off-topic posts have been removed. Stick to Hybrids in the News.

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  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Thirteen cars with problems, vs. 750,000 vehicles with steering problems... if I had a choice, I'd rather have a car lose power than have a steering failure.

    http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2005-05-18-toyota-recall_x.htm
  • molokaimolokai Member Posts: 313
    Didn't GM recall over 1 millions vehicles with a similar problem? I must be one of the lucky 999,987 because my Prius has not failed yet. I have an early 2004 model with 33,023 miles and have had all the service campaign updates. I love my Prius!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You are one of the informed Prius owners that had your car maintained and did not encounter the software glitch. It pays to use the dealer for service at least while the vehicle is under warranty. Then these updates can be done and you have a good experience with your vehicle. I believe that GM recall is the seatbelt tensioner not steering related.
  • molokaimolokai Member Posts: 313
    Well I happen to participate in one prius forum and there are quite a few members. No one seems to be having problems but maybe they just don't want to post any issues. I used to have a 2001 Passat which I really loved but the dealer experience was terrible and it was out of service way too often. I have read the Wall St Jrnl article and took it with a grain of salt.
  • chidorochidoro Member Posts: 125
    89K per year? Hardly. Not for individuals or household incomes. In fact, if you were to look at what is considered an average household income in a relatively wealthy county, it will probably fall in the low 60’s range. That’s for a higher income area. You blend the higher income areas with the entire population and I’d be surprised in the average US household income isn’t more in the mid 40’s range. Sorry lars but you’re going to have to back that up with a report for me to believe that statement.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    89K *IS* the latest published household income for USA car buyers...Google it yourself....:)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Narrowing our search to "salary," we found that the Bureau of Labor Statistics reports the average annual wages in the U.S. as $36,764 for 2002.

    http://www.bls.gov/cew/state2002.txt

    The inflation-adjusted income of the nation's median household fell slightly in 2003, from $43,381 to $43,318 (though the decline was statistically insignificant), according to today's report from the U.S. Bureau of the Census.

    http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/webfeatures_econindicators_income20040826
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Here is an article on Prius cars and gas prices and things...It also points out this little gem that I never knew:

    "...considering the average income for a Hummer family tops $175,000 a year and they typically have at least two other cars or trucks in their garage."

    http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/Business/Headlines/03BusinessBIZ010501- 05.htm
  • molokaimolokai Member Posts: 313
    Gary.. that sounds correct. However I think larsb was referring to the average car buyer and NOT the average American. A big diference. I have to say, 89k seems kinda high but I am sure his data is correct. His posts are quite interesting, truthful and informative.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    I'm not talking about USA median household income.....I'm talking about "new car buyer household income" which is $89K, versus the Prius buyer's $100K.....I am looking for the article now, will post it shortly.....:)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I remember Larsb posting an article that said that. I don't know many families that are not car buying. Unless you live in a big city you need a car. And people in big cities have to make big bucks just to live. It gets back to the point that Toyota is not building toward the car buying masses with their hybrids. My big question is do they want that many hybrids sold?
  • sinepmansinepman Member Posts: 137
    It's not just Toyota that is selling hybrids. I understand that they will offer a hybrid variant in their Camry too. I doubt the Corolla will have it, but perhaps that it will and be cheaper than the Prius. I also think that Honda will continue to offer some innovative products as well. Nissan will have an Altima hybrid in 2007 (with the Toyota synergy drive). I have faith in this technology and it is definitely a step forward. Now others will have to step up to the plate and best Toyota and Honda.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think the hybrid technology would gain mass approval if they were targeted at the mass car buyers. Most people like to think of themselves as environmentally aware. They don't like being put into the radical Greenie category. The Prius especially has targeted the more militant environmental activists. Honda I just don't get it with them. They have the two best hybrids on the market in the HCH & Insight. In an area of the highest gas prices you don't ever see them on the lots. I asked the salesman at Tipton Honda close by where I live about the Hybrid Civic when I went in to look at the HAH. He told me they only do special orders on them. That does not sound like a company that wants to sell hybrids.
  • molokaimolokai Member Posts: 313
    I think they're still in the infancy stage but certainly gaining acceptance. Perhaps you may get your wish and hybrids will not succeed. You seem quite determined to make that happen. Is that your mission in life?
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote gagrice-"I think the hybrid technology would gain mass approval if they were targeted at the mass car buyers."-end quote

    How do you propose that they "target mass car buyers" other than regular advertising? Flyers posted on the walls in apartment complexes? I see TV and newspaper ads all the time, several a week, in Phoenix, for Hybrid cars. They are in the car ads. They are on TV. They advertised the Prius during the SUPER BOWL for gosh sake, 200 million viewers !! How is that NOT targeting the "mass car buyer" ?????

    And that Honda dealer who only special orders hybrids is just being foolish. They for SOME REASON must think the cars will sit on the lot for a while or something. That's part of the "backward thinking" that is slowing the Hybrid Revolution - dealers who are old fuddy duddies and who cannot understand that Hybrids are mainstream now, not some fad or novelty.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    "And that Honda dealer who only special orders hybrids is just being foolish. They for SOME REASON must think the cars will sit on the lot for a while or something."

    Well, Honda's Civic Hybrid and Accord Hybrid aren't actually selling that well. The Civic Hybrid sales are down big over last year. And the Accord Hybrid doesn't have a waiting list either, I think. ANd the Insight is basically dead.

    Toyota has done a much better job designing and marketing the Hybrids, and it shows in sales figures.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    How does a hybrid with more interior room than a Civic or Corolla, 110 hp ICE + electric motor, and an estimated starting price under $15k sound? Is that enough "for the masses"? It's coming next year to the U.S.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Honda is not hurting.

    http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/www/story/05-03-2005/00035396- 42&EDATE=

    That includes the best ever month for Honda Civic Hybrid: "5,579 including all-time record sales of Civic Hybrid."

    Accord Hybrid had "sales of 2,023 Accord Hybrids, the best month since its
    December 2004 launch."

    Hybrid sales for Honda are what they are for these reasons:

    1. Accord Hybrid is new, so the word is just now getting around. Many people think the hybrids "still have to be plugged in" so the word of new hybrids has to get around.

    2. Civic Hybrid is "long in the tooth" and a "lame duck" model because the new, completely redesigned 2006 Civic comes out this fall. That situation, in EVERY CAR, leads to slower sales because people justify "waiting" for the new model.

    3. Insight has NEVER been a big seller - it's just too pigeonholed into one good use, which is "high mileage one or two person commuting" and NO CAR like that (which was not a convertible or a high speed sports car) has EVER sold that well in the USA.

    So with the most Hybrids ever sold in one month in April, I think you can say Honda's Hybrids are holding their own.... :D
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    I hope this link does not get me in trouble, but here it says the "average car buyer" income is $85K versus Hybrid car buyer of $100K, which is not the number I found a few months ago, but it generally shows my number of $89K to be fairly in range.....

    http://www.hybridcars.com/hybrid-buyer-profile.html
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Is that your mission in life?

    Absolutely not. I am interested in high mileage vehicles, 40-45 mpg plus. They are available world wide except the USA. The hybrid started out that way and has gone the same route as all the rest of the cars. Performance first and if we gain a few miles to the gallon hoorah for us. What started my quest were two guys that drove from the tip of South America to the Arctic Ocean in a Ford Ranger Crew Cab. It had a 4 cylinder diesel with a 5 speed manual transmission. They had averaged for the trip just under 45 MPG. I wanted one and still want one and that was 6 years ago. Here in the USA only 3 cars are in that ballpark. So I will keep ragging until I get what I want. If it is a hybrid PU that gets 45 MPG without doing all the hypermiling, I will go for it. If hybrids do not succeed it will be the fact they cannot be built cheap enough for the average car buyer to justify or afford.

    Backy:
    A $15k hybrid should be a winner! There are some decent cars that can be bought in that price range.
  • sinepmansinepman Member Posts: 137
    Gary.. why don't you write to Ford and other manufacturers and complain. It is quite apparent that the hybrid vehicles coming online won't suit your needs. Your continued rhetoric is old and tired. People who visit here do not take you seriously because they know your agenda. Believe me, you're not helping anyone with your posts, amusing as they are!
  • sinepmansinepman Member Posts: 137
    http://tinyurl.com/cwqek

    I see GM has improved too. I really hope the next few years brings prosperity to them. I also hope they can compete in the hybrid market as well. There's plenty of room for everyone to be successful.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The average new car transaction price is somewhere in between $25K to $30K, the Prius is about $25K and the Civic is actually a few grand cheaper. ISN'T THAT TARGETING THE MASS CAR BUYER??

    I disagree. Of the 10 top selling cars you would be hard pressed to pay $25k for any of them Most are under $20K. You can buy a mid grade full size Impala for $20k right now. That is what the hybrids are competing against. Until they get in that $15k-$20k range they will be only for the wealthy and environmental activist buyers.
  • molokaimolokai Member Posts: 313
    My household income is a little over 80k. I definitely do not feel wealthy. I have a mortgage and a $308 car payment. Where do people get their facts?? Sheesh!!!
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    In San Francisco or any area where home values are ridiculous, people making $100K for a family of five are going to be far from the WEALTHY cutoff line, that's for sure !! :D
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    "Of the 10 top selling cars you would be hard pressed to pay $25k for any of them Most are under $20K."

    Alright. I pulled some *factual* data from 2003. I couldn't find 2004's sales figures but the best sellers don't change much from year to year. Tell me how the average *most of them are under $20K*:

    1)Ford F150: 845K units sold
    2) Chevy Silverado: 684K units sold
    3) Dodge Ram: 450K units sold
    4) Toyota Camry: 413K units sold
    5) Honda Accord: 397K units sold
    6) Ford Explorer: 373K units sold
    7) Ford Taurus: 300K units sold
    8) HOnda Civic: 288K units sold
    9) Chevrolet Impala: 267K units sold
    10) Chevy Trailblazer: 261K units sold

    Out of this bunch I can only come with the Honda Civic that would be clearly under $20K. And maybe the Ford Taurus and Chevy Impala due to rebates. That's definately not *Most*.
  • mirthmirth Member Posts: 1,212
    ...whether the average person will pay $25K for what is really a $20K car (i.e. will they buy a $25K Prius when they can get a nice Camry for $20K?).

    No.

    No way.

    No how.

    IMHO, of course.
  • mirthmirth Member Posts: 1,212
    Another anti-hybrid rant from our friends at Autoextremist:

    http://www.autoextremist.com
  • molokaimolokai Member Posts: 313
    Camry doesn't have the content that a fully loaded Prius has. It's not a hatch either. Nice car tho. Can't wait to see how it is in hybrid form.
  • molokaimolokai Member Posts: 313
    I read more flattery than anything else. Thanks for the link. Interesting reading!!
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    The hostile tone in this forum is a TURN OFF for anyone who wants to keep track of hybrid news.

    Unless ofcourse someone reading these posts is doing a case study on Anger Mismanagement!
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    gagrice,

    Check out the below link:

    http://www.autoremarketing.com/ar/news/story.html?id=3546

    It says the average transaction price of a new car is $26K+.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The best selling is the Ford F-150.

    I thought you were talking about competition for the available Hybrid cars. Yes PU trucks and SUVs are more expensive and are bigger sellers than cars. I don't see any Hybrids in that category that are competitive either, including the Escape Hybrid.

    You keep attributing the statement about wealthy people buying hybrids to me. That is not my statement. I am repeating what many journalists and Toyota themselves stated. I still consider anyone making $100k per year in the upper middle class of this country. I am sure you can find those making less that have bought hybrids. That does not change the demographic significantly.

    Where do parts come from?
    I consider Japan a third world country and most parts for Toyota and Honda originate there. I am not going to argue that some of the parts are manufactured here. If they are that is a good thing. My point is, the wages of those in this country that are"manufacturing" those cars is not up to the going wage for the industry as a whole. This is not the forum for that and we can agree that everyone has an opinion. I think I will go back to the Diesel board where more tolerance and civility is shown. It is obvious that anyone that questions or brings up dissenting opinions concerning hybrid technology is branded a lowlife.
  • sinepmansinepman Member Posts: 137
    Gary... please do not think like that. I certainly do not mind a debate when the facts are accurate. For you to even suggest that Japan is a third world country truly shows that you don't know what you're talking about. We should only wish to emulate some of the fine statistics that Japan can brag about. An extremely high literacy rate, extremely low crime rate etc etc. I don't think you are a low life, and I am certain no one else here feels that way either. Please stay and continue to debate the negative virtues of the hybrids. As much as we disagree, I think your intentions are genuine.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    For you to even suggest that Japan is a third world country truly shows that you don't know what you're talking about.

    There are many ways to look at the value of a country. I consider both Japan and Germany close equals. Since WW2 they have prospered financially largely at our expense. They have contributed many good things that we enjoy. They are also being protected by us at no small expense. They may be lovely safe places to live. They are not world powers in the traditional sense.

    I don't visit this forum to belittle anyone's choice in vehicles. I enjoy the debate on a civil level, understanding that we all have opinions and many variations on those opinions.

    Hybrid technology is in it's infancy as far as mass produced automobiles are concerned. I just don't believe Toyota is being honest about the technology. For example the fellow that is considering trading his 2002 Prius on a new one. If Toyota dealers were interested in furthering the technology they would at least offer the fellow low blue book in trade for a new Prius. They are getting MSRP and making big bucks on the sale. Instead they offer him $5,000 under Low BB. The dealings surrounding the Toyota/Lexus hybrids is too much of a feeding frenzy & media circus to be the good thing, that most people on here consider it to be. It has become way too emotionally charged. They are just cars, that get us from A to B, nothing more. The more efficient the better for all of us.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,242
    dewey, I'm sorry that some of our members are unable or unwilling to behave in an inviting, civilized manner. I have removed more posts yet again today.

    I hope that you will share any news that you come across.

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  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Gary... there is one thing that is for sure and the dealers have no interest in promoting any new type of technology. All the dealer is concerned with is maximizing profit on each unit they sell. Since the hybrid (unit) is highly desirable, they try and get what the market will bring. They couldn't care less if Toyota is successful with it's hybird lineup. All they are interested in is GREEN (money).
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote gagrice-" I just don't believe Toyota is being honest about the technology."-end quote

    What are they dishonest about? They are sharing their technology with basically anyone who asks them for it, competitors too.....what exactly are they being dishonest about?
  • railroadjamesrailroadjames Member Posts: 560
    I think you meant to say...SELLING... and not SHARING..right? Lets face it. Toyota is reaping their technology bonus by selling hybrid works to those getting on the bandwagon. Why not? It Works.

    Hybrids for a more efficient tomarrow
    Railroadjames
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    what exactly are they being dishonest about?

    Long term repair expense of the added components in the hybrids. I think they know that this vehicle is going to be very expensive to repair after warranty. If these parts were not sooooo expensive I would consider it normal wear & tear. To have to replace sensors & catalytic convertors on vehicles that are 3-4 years old seems odd to me. Maybe these things go out in all new cars. I know in the case of the catalytic convertor it is a lot more expensive for the Prius than say a Corolla. You will not hear about the components that get replaced under warranty. Nobody complains about that. They are happy they are covered. We are already hearing about people unhappy about big repair bills with first generation Prius.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    If people get a bad taste in their mouth due to high repair bills there goes the possiblity of the hybrid going mainstream. Do you think Toyota is going to risk billions and then have no ability to carry sales forward? NONSENSE!!!! The warranty out of the box is quite generous and better than most manufacturers. The hybrid components are warranted for 60,000 miles or five years. Now that the Prius is selling in big numbers Toyota does not want a fiasco on their hands. The press will get wind of it and sales will plummet. You watch and see, repair costs will not be anything approaching what you assume.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Aren't the hybrid components warranted for 8 years, and in CAFE states for 10 years/150,000 miles?

    I think hybrids will be expensive to repair after the warranty expires. But then, I think almost all modern cars, with their sophisticated electronics and complex mechanicals e.g. 5-6-7 speed automatic transmissions, will be expensive to repair post-warranty.
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