Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous (Archived)

breld

At the end of the day, this buying transaction has simply turned into a way to take advantage of the hefty tax incentives offered here in CO. Together with the federal incentive, we're looking at $9,500 back on the Prius and $12,500 on the Clarity.

I mentioned this in the RWTIV thread, but we believe with those incentives, we can use one of these as our third car and suffer very little, and perhaps no, depreciation.

In most cases, simply keeping the car you have is usually the cheaper option, but I actually think we'll experience more depreciation on the i3 than owning one of these other PHEVs over the next, say, year or so.

Then, there will be more fun electric options and we may just do the same thing again!

suydam

Most people lease EVs because the tech keeps improving. If two years from now the Prime gets 50 miles to a charge, the current ones’ value will drop. Usually you can get most of the incentives from leasing as well. Depends on the dealer and state.

sda

henryn said:

sda said:

I like your truck, good equipment, power, looks, yet still a truck. Were you affected by flooding from hurricane Harvey? My parents have friends who lost everything.

No, not me personally. Of course I know many, friends and coworkers, who were hit. Some of whom were devastated, wiped out completely, others with relatively minor damage. No deaths, no injuries, at least among people I knew, just financial hardship. Which can be bad enough when you lose everything you own.

The office where I work was closed for a week, so my biggest problem was boredom. My immediate area was high and dry, but you couldn't really go anywhere. All of the freeways were closed, and I do mean all. You could try to get around on surface streets, but most of those were under water, and it really wasn't a good idea.

It wasn't like your typical hurricane aftermath. I never lost electricity, or internet, and I was stocked up on food (which was good, because there was nothing open). You just couldn't go anywhere or do anything. At all.

I'm relieved to learn you weathered it ok. Having been thru Camille in New Orleans in '69 and Hugo in '89 in Charlotte, hurricanes are not fun.

qbrozen

breld said:

The idea is, a year from now (or 6 months) (or only 3 months) the difference in resale value between a 2018 and a 2017 will greater than $2,400. So you will lose less money due to depreciation by buying the 2018 model for $2,400 more. At least that's what @stickguy is alluding to. I don't actually know that for a fact, but it is probably true. Check average resale values for a used 2018 versus a 2017, using edmunds or kbb or ask @qbrozen.

Yeah - that's exactly what we were thinking. And, in fact, their best trade value on the i3 was $500 less than the other Toyota dealer I was working with on the 2018 model. So, comparing deal vs deal, I'd be saving a mere $1,800 to get the 2017. Didn't seem worth it at all - not for my intended purposes. And @stickguy - used ones are rare, but they did actually have one on their lot...for $28k, or about the same as a discounted new 2017. And the most significant thing is all those tax incentives do not apply to used vehicles.

As I read this, I had a suspicion that we might not see much of a difference in model year values given equal mileage. I was correct. 2017 and 2018 Prius Prime Advanced are each right about $28k with next to no miles. Granted, only a couple of sales to go by. But even with a couple thousand miles on a 2017, it fetched $27k. So, while we of course can't predict what will happen, it MIGHT work out even better for you to take a cheaper new 2017. That is, of course, if you pick that vehicle. I'd argue the homeliness again, but then it occurs to me you had a Civic R, sooo...

benjaminh

Unexpected punch. A new car for my wife in her chosen color—LAVA! Excellent trade-in for her old Accord, good discount from msrp, decent financing on the remainder, etc. I could tell that her 2018 CR-V gets to 60 with its turbo 1.5 faster than my 2016 Accord with the direct injection 2.4.

tjc78

benjaminh said:

Unexpected punch. A new car for my wife in her chosen color—LAVA!

Congrats! Great color!

stickguy

love that color. Interesting wheels though. Need to see those in person!

What trim level is that?

henryn

Very, very pretty! Is that the EX or the EX-L?

corvette

That’s a gorgeous color! I’d love to have that color on my daily driver and not just the Mustang. 

nyccarguy

benjaminh said:

Unexpected punch. A new car for my wife in her chosen color—LAVA! Excellent trade-in for her old Accord, good discount from msrp, decent financing on the remainder, etc. I could tell that her 2018 CR-V gets to 60 with its turbo 1.5 faster than my 2016 Accord with the direct injection 2.4.

Way to go!  Very nice color choice!  I see your wife has good taste;).  And with this punch, another shall come @benjaminh.  You simply can’t have the wife’s car be faster than your car

benjaminh

henryn said:

Very, very pretty! Is that the EX or the EX-L?

EX AWD. My wife says that someday in the not-too-distant future she's going to take me "off road"....!

28firefighter

Congrats, @benjaminh!

stickguy

EX is really nicely equipped. would be fine for me. The wife though seems fixated on wanting leather seats.

breld

qbrozen said:

breld said:

The idea is, a year from now (or 6 months) (or only 3 months) the difference in resale value between a 2018 and a 2017 will greater than $2,400. So you will lose less money due to depreciation by buying the 2018 model for $2,400 more. At least that's what @stickguy is alluding to. I don't actually know that for a fact, but it is probably true. Check average resale values for a used 2018 versus a 2017, using edmunds or kbb or ask @qbrozen.

Yeah - that's exactly what we were thinking. And, in fact, their best trade value on the i3 was $500 less than the other Toyota dealer I was working with on the 2018 model. So, comparing deal vs deal, I'd be saving a mere $1,800 to get the 2017. Didn't seem worth it at all - not for my intended purposes. And @stickguy - used ones are rare, but they did actually have one on their lot...for $28k, or about the same as a discounted new 2017. And the most significant thing is all those tax incentives do not apply to used vehicles.

As I read this, I had a suspicion that we might not see much of a difference in model year values given equal mileage. I was correct. 2017 and 2018 Prius Prime Advanced are each right about $28k with next to no miles. Granted, only a couple of sales to go by. But even with a couple thousand miles on a 2017, it fetched $27k. So, while we of course can't predict what will happen, it MIGHT work out even better for you to take a cheaper new 2017. That is, of course, if you pick that vehicle. I'd argue the homeliness again, but then it occurs to me you had a Civic R, sooo...

Good to know - thanks!   I suspect the one I was considering is gone.  There were several others eyeing the car. 

But the value proposition between the 2017 and 2018 was only one part of the hesitation - I still want to check the Clarity out further.  

And yes, I’d say the Prius makes the Type R look elegant!  

Michaell

Congrats, @benjaminh!

I was at the Honda dealer on Saturday with @breld and @jpp5862 and was checking out the Civic EX-T. Quite a lot of car for the $23k sticker.

kyfdx

benjaminh said:

Unexpected punch. A new car for my wife in her chosen color—LAVA! Excellent trade-in for her old Accord, good discount from msrp, decent financing on the remainder, etc. I could tell that her 2018 CR-V gets to 60 with its turbo 1.5 faster than my 2016 Accord with the direct injection 2.4.

Congrats!

graphicguy

@benjaminh ....Big Congrats on the punch. I really like how it looks and the color. Every time I see these on the road, I find myself staring. Honda did a really nice job on those.

rayainsw

benjaminh 'Unexpected punch.'
Congrats !
- Ray
Very nice looking...

breld

@benjaminh - congrats on the punch. I like those CR-Vs a lot!

henryn

I need to get down to a dealership and drive one of those with the new turbo engine. I'm hearing / reading good things about it.

pensfan83

@benjaminh I really like the color, very deep and rich looking. Congrats and enjoy the new car!

nyccarguy

@breld

I’m not sure if the Volt is on your radar (I know the Bolt is), but I saw a very nice lease advertised on the Chevy Website this AM:

2018 Chevy Volt $34,095 MSRP
$299 per month for 36 months
15,000 miles per year
$0 Down, $0 Security, $0 First Payment ($0 Due at signing) 
Includes $500 conquest cash for current lease of 2008 or newer Non-GM Vehicle.

ab348

Unexpected punch? Like this?




j/k Congrats!

benjaminh

Our new CR-V EX AWD was made by our friends and allies in Ontario at the Honda factory up there. They did a great job as far as I can tell—excellent fit and finish and everything works.

It was kind of unexpected because for the last several months I've been trying to convince my wife to get an Accord hybrid, but finally she told me just the day before yesterday that what she really wanted was a CR-V. She does gardening and lumber projects, etc, and so really does use the utility of a station wagon/suv. She hates to set foot in a dealer's lot and so I was just going in to do a test drive. It was a rainy day at the smallest Honda dealership in our area, and so it wasn't crowded at all, and understandably they wanted to make a sale. They started by giving a thousand more in trade for my wife's 2013 Accord EXL (which has some dings and wear and tear) than the other dealer (13k), but then we hit some roadblocks when I found out Honda only offers financing on the base LX model. Also they didn't have the model we really wanted, which was EX 2WD. So far we've never done more than a dirt road in dry conditions, and it only rarely snows in Louisville more than a couple of inches, making AWD seem like overkill for us—and so we at first wanted to do without the $1400 extra cost for AWD. But since they didn't have it an EX 2WD on the lot and it would be a trade from c.200 miles away to get one, they gave us something of a discount on the AWD.

As @stickguy says the EX is very nicely set up—heated seats, blind spot info system/cross traffic alert, AndroidAuto/CarPlay, HondaSensing, etc., etc. Those alloy wheels are a weird design imho, but....wow, the tires are really big 18" x 230 or something. Love the car so far. Lots of good touches in the design—rear vents and 2 rear power outlets, slightly reclining rear seats (!), adjustable cargo, etc.

With our 13k trade we had c.15k to finance after TTL, and they found with capital one 3.95% for a 3 year loan with payments of c.452 a month, which means c.$960 interest for the life of the loan. Could be worse....?

All told it took c. 5 hours at the dealer. Was about the pull the plug a few times because of the financing and not having the EX 2WD, but my wife encouraged me to hang in there, and it turned into a really nice present for her.

Thanks for all the congrats. 0-60 is c. 7.2 seconds in the turbo CR-V from what I've read. I think my Accord goes 0-60 in about 7.6. We almost never accelerate like that, but merging onto the freeway I could tell the CR-V was a little faster. As someone said, at some point I might need an upgrade.....!

Mr_Shiftright

breld said:

At the end of the day, this buying transaction has simply turned into a way to take advantage of the hefty tax incentives offered here in CO. Together with the federal incentive, we're looking at $9,500 back on the Prius and $12,500 on the Clarity.

I mentioned this in the RWTIV thread, but we believe with those incentives, we can use one of these as our third car and suffer very little, and perhaps no, depreciation.

In most cases, simply keeping the car you have is usually the cheaper option, but I actually think we'll experience more depreciation on the i3 than owning one of these other PHEVs over the next, say, year or so.

Then, there will be more fun electric options and we may just do the same thing again!

I would agree with that. The i3 depreciation will continue to be ugly.

breld

nyccarguy said:

@breld

I’m not sure if the Volt is on your radar (I know the Bolt is), but I saw a very nice lease advertised on the Chevy Website this AM:

2018 Chevy Volt $34,095 MSRP
$299 per month for 36 months
15,000 miles per year
$0 Down, $0 Security, $0 First Payment ($0 Due at signing) 
Includes $500 conquest cash for current lease of 2008 or newer Non-GM Vehicle.

Thanks Bradd - the Volt is on my radar, but I'm more interested in purchasing, taking the full tax incentive (the $5,000 CO incentive is halved for leases), and mitigating any depreciation effect. I think I accomplish that best through the Prius, maybe the Clarity coming in second.

And that's all just a reflection of resale values, not necessarily the cars themselves. With my track record on turnaround time, and with this transaction in particular, I'm prioritizing resale value.

breld

Having said that, I stopped by the Toyota dealer this morning to see what was left of the "manager special" 2017's. The Advance model I almost bought yesterday is indeed gone, but they have three more "Premium" models left. While I like the features on the Advance model (blind spot, parking sensors, heads-up, JBL), my wife is pointing out that this not the primary car for either of us, and these Premium models are better equipped than the i3 anyway.

So...they have a nice white one I like offered at $26,500 - the same $4k off that was offered on the Advance model.

Again, with my goal of replacing the i3 with something that's still efficient but offers more overall range, and to mitigate or eliminate the loss of value, I think this fits the bill very well. With the $9,500 in tax incentives, we're talking a Prius Prime with a net cost of about $17k - I actually doubt resale will drop below that for some time.

I've been chatting with @michaell and @jpp5862 about this - the Clarity does offer more EV range and more interior space, but it certainly comes at a higher cost (even with the increased tax incentive) and somewhat more uncertainty on resale. Maybe Honda has found a good niche in the EV/Hybrid market, but hard to say at this point.

stickguy

Hard to argue with that price, if you won’t have to worry about losing the tax savings when you flip.

suydam

At only 27 miles to a charge, you might as well just get a regular Prius. Unless you’re fine with charging every day. What’s the range on the Clarity?
On the Volt lease, is that LT? That’s pretty basi. The Premier offers so much more.

nyccarguy

It is VERY hard to argue against a brand new Prius Prime at $17K. You could probably buy it and drive it over to CARMAX and make $1,000.

benjaminh

nyccarguy said:

It is VERY hard to argue against a brand new Prius Prime at $17K. You could probably buy it and drive it over to CARMAX and make $1,000.

Although you are not supposed to do that. These tax credits for EVs designed for owners who are going to keep them for a while, and not for people looking to do an immediate resale for profit. It might be possible to get the feds after you for doing that, although I've not heard of any cases of that happening.

breld

suydam said:

At only 27 miles to a charge, you might as well just get a regular Prius. Unless you’re fine with charging every day. What’s the range on the Clarity?
On the Volt lease, is that LT? That’s pretty basi. The Premier offers so much more.

Except there are no tax incentives on the regular Prius.

ab348

This incentive business is starting to sound something like the VW TDI arbitrage.

pensfan83

The sister of one of my best friend's reached out to me today to help her locate a vehicle to replace her husband's 14 year old CRV with either another SUV/CUV or a crew cab pickup. She has a 4 year old CRV and they are both very happy with Hondas but wouldn't object to Toyotas either. Ford, Buick, or Subaru are out. They want a payment in the $250-$300 range so on a 5 year loan with an average 3.5-4.5% interest rate you're probably looking no more than $20,000 and probably less in all likelihood.

CRV (prior gen)
Rav4
Jeep Cherokee (prior facelift)
CX-5(?)

I don't think the GM pickups or Tacomas are going to be within their budget. Any other suggestions?

breld

ab348 said:

This incentive business is starting to sound something like the VW TDI arbitrage.

Yeah...pretty much.  Not necessarily profitable, but will likely offset the cost of depreciation.  

breld

And...easy peasy.  Got it done over my lunch break.  

I’d post pictures of the Prius out of tradition, but 1) you already know what they look like and 2) none of you really want to see a large high-res picture of a Prius.  

28firefighter

Every punch is precious in this place. Post away.

benjaminh

pensfan83 said:

The sister of one of my best friend's reached out to me today to help her locate a vehicle to replace her husband's 14 year old CRV with either another SUV/CUV or a crew cab pickup. She has a 4 year old CRV and they are both very happy with Hondas but wouldn't object to Toyotas either. Ford, Buick, or Subaru are out. They want a payment in the $250-$300 range so on a 5 year loan with an average 3.5-4.5% interest rate you're probably looking no more than $20,000 and probably less in all likelihood.

CRV (prior gen)
Rav4
Jeep Cherokee (prior facelift)
CX-5(?)

I don't think the GM pickups or Tacomas are going to be within their budget. Any other suggestions?

In that budget range perhaps a VW Tiguan? For just a little bit more the LX CR-V 2WD is a nicer vehicle imho, and Honda has financing on just the base LX model (as I found out yesterday) for 2.9% for 5 years. But even a base CR-V—after discounts and with a modest downpayment—is more like $350 a month. Of course you can lease any of these for less, but I assume they aren't interested in that....

stickguy

Breld, did you trade in the i3 to them?

pensfan83

@benjaminh a lease is an option but not on the CRV. On the higher trims an RDX can be had for less.

benjaminh

pensfan83 said:

@benjaminh a lease is an option but not on the CRV. On the higher trims an RDX can be had for less.

Honda's lease on the CR-V LX with AWD might be in the ballpark....

"Featured Special Lease
Expires 07/05/18
2018 CR-V Continuously Variable Transmission AWD LX Featured Special Lease
$269
Per month for 36 months.
$2,199 total due at signing.
Includes down payment with no security deposit. Excludes taxes, title and either dealer fees or documentary service fee. For well-qualified lessees."

https://automobiles.honda.com/tools/current-offers?zipcode=40205

And with some negotiation you might be able to do better than that?

Do they need AWD? If not, they can save some there.

At my local VW Dealer they have some of the last generation Tiguan for c. $19k or so.

kyfdx

They even make the last Gen Tiguan for 2018 (Limited trim... lol)

I agree.. that might slip in under their budget.

tifighter

breld said:

And...easy peasy.  Got it done over my lunch break.

The king of understatement. Congrats!

tifighter

28firefighter said:

Every punch is precious.

This really should be the CCBA t-shirt. Or at least a bumper sticker.

breld

stickguy said:

Breld, did you trade in the i3 to them?

Yup - the i3 is back with Autonation now (I bought it from a different Autonation store earlier in the year).

ab348

kyfdx said:

They even make the last Gen Tiguan for 2018 (Limited trim... lol)

I agree.. that might slip in under their budget.

I read something this week that said VW raised the price of the old Tiguan for 2018 and reduced the price of the new one at the same time. I guess you get a bunch of different stuff on the old one which might be desired by some people but I would have to go with the new one at this point.

Mr_Shiftright

breld said:

And...easy peasy.  Got it done over my lunch break.  

I’d post pictures of the Prius out of tradition, but 1) you already know what they look like and 2) none of you really want to see a large high-res picture of a Prius.  

Said he, twirling his smoking pistol before slipping it back into the holster.

breld

nyccarguy

nyccarguy

@breld

Congrats!  Is this you blocking the leftover lane of I95 in CT at 6:30 this AM?