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Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous (Archived)

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  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,025
    I may not need to worry about College with him, he says he wants to drive a trash truck for Waste Management. If he can live with the smell I am not about to talk him out of it.

    Hmm, small world...I used to have stock in Waste Management. Looking back on my records, I guess I sold just in time. Paid $13.94 per share for it in 2000. Sold it about 2 years later for $27.91 per share. And I think it's almost back up to that now! :sick:

    Oh, at the opposite end of the chronic car buying spectrum, today, 4/21/09, is the 15th anniversary of the day I bought my '67 Catalina convertible. Good lord where did the time go? :surprise:
  • gussguss Member Posts: 1,167
    When the time comes to sell the Catalina I got dibs. It came out nice with the wheel upgrade. 15 years, I hate to think of the number of cars I have had in the last 15 years. I am glad you are a buyer and a keeper, but if I had the room you do I probably would of held on to 2 or 3.

    I think the ideal stable would be a Jeep/Suv,a sedan, and a sports car/convertible.
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    I think the ideal stable would be a Jeep/Suv,a sedan, and a sports car/convertible.

    I guess I'm 2/3 of the way there with the VUE and the L300. Just gotta find a used sports car / convertible for the nice days.

    True statement - Denver gets more days of sunshine per year than either San Diego or Miami.

    What they don't tell you is that while the sun is shining, the ambient temperature is below freezing - or, worse, below zero!

    Overall, I would use a convertible on more days that I would use AWD / 4WD from an SUV or truck - there are about 10-15 days per year where my wife is happy the VUE is AWD.
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    I think the ideal stable would be a Jeep/Suv,a sedan, and a sports car/convertible.

    For me it'd be similiar:
    -an SUV or a full size truck with towing capabilities
    -a sporty convertible car ala Miata/ used MB SL/ used BMW 3 series
    -a 4 door midsize new sports/luxury sedan
    -a classic or old car of some sorts used only in nice weather, or summer time

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,347
    I think the ideal stable would be a Jeep/Suv,a sedan, and a sports car/convertible.

    I'm almost there:

    Jeep Wrangler
    X3(wife's car)
    318ti Club Sport
    2002A

    I think Andre has 2-3 of each... :P

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • oregonboyoregonboy Member Posts: 1,650
    You need (all homowners need) a PICKUP TRUCK!!!.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,025
    When my '85 Silverado finally dies, I thought about trying to get a "real" truck to replace it, like a 3/4 or 1-ton. Sure, it would be a guzzler, but my '85 doesn't exactly sip the stuff. And then I'd be able to tow or get a truck camper if I wanted to, and wouldn't have to worry as much about overloading the bed. Which I found out isn't hard to do, as the truck has a GVWR of 5600 lb and weighs about 4200 lb.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 266,190
    Nah... I just need a neighbor/friend with one... ;)

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  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,347
    You need (all homeowners need) a PICKUP TRUCK!!!

    I have at least seven friends who own pickups and I can almost always borrow one on short notice.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    I will have lived in my house for 9 years next month and there have been only a handful of occasions where I needed a pickup truck.

    For the most part, the SUV's that we've owned (Ford Expedition, Ford Explorer, 2 Saturn VUE's) have managed to haul anything that we've needed for home improvement projects.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,025
    I will have lived in my house for 9 years next month and there have been only a handful of occasions where I needed a pickup truck.

    I think the last halfway "macho" thing I did with my '85 Silverado was about a year ago, when I used it to pull my non-running Dart out of the yard, and re-position it in the driveway, so it didn't look so abandoned.

    A couple weeks ago, the dryer quit working and I had to get a new one. So I hopped in the pickup truck and went in search of one. And guess what? It seems nobody stocks dryers anymore...they want you to order your dryer and have it delivered! :mad: I guess that's convenient for a lot of people, but not when you want a dryer right then and there, and have the means to bring it home yourself!

    Ended up ordering one from Home Depot, and they had free delivery, free pickup of the old one, and, get this, they actually showed up when they said they would!

    Speaking of SUV's, I dunno if a dryer would fit in the back of my buddy's Xterra or not. Probably, if we put the seats down and had the dryer on its side.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    My next door neighbor has two. And a trailer. Heck, he even has a crane! But why expose your stuff to the elements when you can use a minivan?

    It'll hold a washer. Or a dryer. Or both at the same time. Or a frig lying down. Or 500 sq. ft. of flooring. link
  • smithedsmithed Member Posts: 444
    "Speaking of SUV's, I dunno if a dryer would fit in the back of my buddy's Xterra or not. Probably, if we put the seats down and had the dryer on its side."

    Not an Xterra, but I've brought recently brought home a new washing machine in my Grand Cherokee with the back seat lying flat and the washer box on it's back. I agree, I might want to use a pickup truck about once a year. Mostly for things I can have delivered for not much $$$$. :D
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    "Speaking of SUV's, I dunno if a dryer would fit in the back of my buddy's Xterra or not. Probably, if we put the seats down and had the dryer on its side."

    Not an Xterra, but I've brought recently brought home a new washing machine in my Grand Cherokee with the back seat lying flat and the washer box on it's back. I agree, I might want to use a pickup truck about once a year. Mostly for things I can have delivered for not much $$$$


    28 mpg Subaru Legacy + $150 "Hidden Hitch" and electrical connector from JC Whitney + $18 for a 5x8 trailer from uHaul.
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    28 mpg Subaru Legacy + $150 "Hidden Hitch" and electrical connector from JC Whitney + $18 for a 5x8 trailer from uHaul.

    While it doesn't get 28MPG, the wife's VUE does have a built in hitch and is rated to tow up to 3500 pounds.

    Buying alert!!

    No, not me. But, was contacted by a friend of mine in CA by email. He has a friend in LA who is about to finalize a deal and he is asking for advice ... so, I thought I'd ping my good friends here at Edmunds for some feedback.

    The car is a 2008 Audi A3. I don't know how it's optioned - auto, stick, sunroof, leather, 4 or 6-cylinder - but I'm trying to find out. I do know that it has 9000 miles, has the remainder of the 4 year / 50K warranty, is being purchased from a private party and the selling price is $22K.

    Any thoughts? The paperwork is being signed tomorrow.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Sounds pretty good. You can't get them for less than about $25K new, right? And more if it has an auto and one or more packages. As long as it is in as-new shape (should be at 1 year and 9K), sounds like a good deal to me. Nice car, I almost bought one of those new when it first came out.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    I know the MSRP for the A3 starts at just a tick over $26K without any options, so I figure that the original sales price was probably around $30K.

    I'm still waiting for some feedback from my friend in CA regarding how the car is equipped, but my first thought was like yours - not a bad deal, on the surface.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Thanks for the book recommendation. I have it on hold at the library.

    A Honda Odyssey can carry a 50" plasma TV in the box. It's tight but it can do it. It's plenty enough space for me. I can borrow a pick up but I've done it very few times.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,025
    A Honda Odyssey can carry a 50" plasma TV in the box. It's tight but it can do it. It's plenty enough space for me. I can borrow a pick up but I've done it very few times.

    A '67 Catalina can theoretically do that in the back seat...with the top down, of course! Probably not a good idea to try it though. Last month, I exchanged my old 50" plasma for a new one. The first one met an untimely demise when the cat projectile-vomited off the staircase, and coated the back and inside of the tv. Shockingly, the extended warranty covered it! Anyway, when we went for the exchange, we took my buddy's '06 Xterra. While we were there though, I saw a guy loading a smaller flat screen, in the box, into the back of a BMW 6-series with the top down. I forget what size it was, but I want to say a 40"?

    Well, he left before we did, but a couple miles up the street, we saw him pulled over by the police. Either he was speeding, which was doubtful because there was too much traffic to get up much speed, or it was illegal to transport that tv the way he did. It did fit down in his back seat, but it stuck out quite a bit...higher than the windshield. I guess if you got going fast enough, the wind resistance could blow it out of there?
  • woodywwwoodyww Member Posts: 1,806
    A '67 Catalina can theoretically do that in the back seat...with the top down, of course

    I wonder how many people remember how gigantic the trunks were in GM full size late '60's sedans--maybe 25 cu. ft., is that right?, in F/S Chevys, Pontiacs, Buicks; andre would know. (In the film "Goodfellas" they put that to good use).

    P/U trucks: my '86 Toyota P/U I used 3 times in 3 years to bring home extremely large furniture--most of it I'd have had to hire movers for. That was before super-
    humongous SUV's were so prevalent. And as I didn't have 7 friends with 7 P/U trucks......
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Yeah, my Celica can handle anything vertically....

    My plasma stopped having working video inputs. Silly me I can't find the Costco receipt and only learned last week they'd have printed me a new one and give mu until June to bring it back. Well, since i bought it (probably when I bought it) I herniated two cervical disks so the other option - they doubled the factory warranty - was an acceptable alternative. They're supposed to fix that next week.

    Actually I'd be better off getting a couple of goriilas to load it carry it back. A new set would be better and I'd get money back. And it wouldn't be a Toshiba which is OK but I'd go elsewhere if i were buying today.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • akanglakangl Member Posts: 3,282
    Took my Pilot to the honda dealer on Tuesday, they checked the brakes and indeed the front rotors were warped. No big, turned them, said pads were fine, so $150 to fix what Midas said $450 to fix.

    Had them do an alignment, flush the transmission, change the rear diff fluid, and replace the in cabin air filter. $550 when it was all said and done for everything, Pilot drives like new again.

    Yesterday my 14 almost 15 year old got his permit *cringe*. Dad took him out with the Civic, guess it didn't go so well, he couldn't master the whole turn and shift thing, lol. He got flustered but he did manage to learn to make the car go without stalling it.

    I'll let him drive the Pilot when his dad is at work since the Civic won't be here. Poor little Civic, just hope he doesn't tear the clutch out of it, lol.
  • tifightertifighter Member Posts: 3,788
    Glad to hear the Pilot has worked out so well, Jolie.

    I've had my 08 for a year and a half now...it's been great. So far, 3 adults, with 3 road bikes and gear inside for a 3 day weekend is my carrying record. 4 hours each way and no complaints for comfort and I got 22mpg. No plans to make a change....well, until my fiance recently got a job in the Bay Area. 4wd Pilot in SF might be overkill.

    Argh. I hate moving.

    25 NX 450h+ / 24 Sienna Plat AWD / 23 Civic Type-R / 21 Boxster GTS 4.0

  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    My Accord is averaging 29MPG so far. I am pleased as it is still less than 500 miles and not really broken in. Put it's first tank of gas in last week. Seems like I can make it a week on one tank of gas. The transmission is a joy to drive and you can feel the extra HP compared to the previous gen.

    Now the hunt is on for the perfect beater to drive so Gee's Lexus can stay in the garage.....
  • corvettecorvette Member Posts: 11,304
    Now the hunt is on for the perfect beater to drive so Gee's Lexus can stay in the garage.....

    He's not going to park it there, semi-permanently, like the LS400 he had, is he? :P
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    I think he enjoys driving the IS more than he enjoyed driving the LS400. The LS400 was more eye candy than anything.

    We've done pretty well this week selling off some old wheels and parts we had in the garage. We have sold the A-spec suspension kit and sway bar gee bought for the TSX and never installed. We also are about to sell the set of 17" wheels he had on the 03 SI that we took off and haven't used since. All that's left are two sets of Si wheels that we had on the TSX and Accord. Not bad since we listed everything Thursday.

    I was surprised to see how much ebay fees have gone up. Seems that they used to be much cheaper?
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I was surprised to see how much ebay fees have gone up. Seems that they used to be much cheaper?

    Yeah eBay changed their vision - instead of being a person to person sales venue, they want everyone to set up an eBay store, so its all bigger guys as opposed to smaller independent sellers. Now its people selling a bunch of stuff for the same price it is in the store, and the sellers with odds & ends that need a national or international market to move their particular widget get pushed out.

    It stinks.
  • woodywwwoodyww Member Posts: 1,806
    I think Costco is the only place that doubles the factory warranty on TV's for free. I'm glad you posted that--every time I decide on a Plasma, I think about my bad back, & the extra weight vs. LSD, oops I mean an LCD. There's a lot to be said for weight & size efficient electronics, even if you give up a tiny bit of performance.....
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Yeah, I think I agree on that.

    That doubled warranty will save me here. Hope they call for the appointment soon.

    Is there anything you get fixed anymore where they don't try to have you address half of it by phone before they do anything? They were having me do a dozen things trying to diagnose things. Felt like that first time I called in for computer service and within 5 minutes they were at "get a phillips head screwdriver."....
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • corvettecorvette Member Posts: 11,304
    Is there anything you get fixed anymore where they don't try to have you address half of it by phone before they do anything?

    No. Can you imagine some little old lady trying to disassemble her Dell computer? I always tell people to skip the extended warranty, if there is an actual hardware failure, they will put you through heck before they send anyone out to replace a part.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Afraid that is so.

    When I bought my first computer Gateway only put in half of the memory I had ordered and paid for. They acknowledged the error and said they'd correct it. Their concept of correcting it was shipping another memory card and then when I called with "What are you going to do with it?" they replied with the "get out your screwdriver" line.

    I was dumb enough to it despite the fact that my eye was inflamed and I couldn't see anywhere near 20/20. We got through it. Maybe I'm in the wring business.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    Ended up selling what we've sold so far through craigslist. If we can't sell the Si wheels through craigslist I may go the ebay route but I am going to give it a while on CL to see if I get any bites.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Ended up selling what we've sold so far through craigslist. If we can't sell the Si wheels through craigslist I may go the ebay route but I am going to give it a while on CL to see if I get any bites.

    I've had fantastic luck with craigslist. We got our dining room set, our entertainment armoire, a lawnmower, and my son's Legacy baby furniture all off CL. Oh and I've sold the Contour's extra wheels, air intake, and the '93 Accord. I love the community feel of it.

    I think its a great approach.
  • grandtotalgrandtotal Member Posts: 1,207
    I think its a great approach.

    Yes, and it doesn't hurt that it's free and local too.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,242
    A reporter is looking to speak to consumers purchased a vehicle within the past three months or is planning to purchase a vehicle because of the discounts or deals that are being offered. Please send your daytime phone number and the vehicle you own to ctalati@edmunds.com by Friday, May 1, 2009.

    Thanks,
    Chintan
    Corporate Communications
    Edmunds.com

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
    Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
    Review your vehicle

  • woodywwwoodyww Member Posts: 1,806
    I'm sure you checked the video inputs on the plasma a few diff. ways; hooking up a diff. dvd player, cables, checking the video outputs on the dvd player or other source, etc.

    I learned my lesson some years ago with these giant 80 lb. (each) british speakers I bought. One broke, & schlepping it for repair was a huge project. Then, when they both started failing, I had to sell them for P/U only because there was no real way to ship them. Just getting them out to the buyer's car took us both like an hour.....
  • woodywwwoodyww Member Posts: 1,806
    In the last few years I've sold on CL: 2 (!) snowblowers, 1 decrepit leafblower, an Ekornes chair for $450, an Anvil keyboard case, a pet carrier, a de-humidifier, 2 room A/C's, a backpack, a bike-carrier, a b-p gauge, some fancy books, etc, etc.

    It sounds good now, but for every sort-of-easy sale, there are more with lots of tire-kickers, e-mail time wasters, no shows, items you have to list 4 times to sell, etc. Still I'm thinking of selling my 12 y.o. Honda lawnmower on CL & getting a new one at HD......(that starts).....
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 266,190
    My Honda mower is entering it's 20th season, and doesn't look like it's going to die any time soon...

    I look lustfully at the new ones, but have no good reason to buy one..

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  • smithedsmithed Member Posts: 444
    think Costco is the only place that doubles the factory warranty on TV's for free. I'm glad you posted that--every time I decide on a Plasma, I think about my bad back, & the extra weight vs. LSD, oops I mean an LCD.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^
    If you use LSD, you won't need a TV. Or just black and white. Your brain will add the colers. ;)
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    That's why my computer monitor is still the amber dual color type from the 80s. :shades:

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    around here for close to a year without even looking seriously at anything, I was overcome by CCB Fever yesterday, and traded in my Matrix for an '09 Subaru Outback Sport. Newport Blue, stick shift (of course!), $18,299 + taxes and fees. MSRP was $20,941, so I am satisfied with the price.

    Don't believe the hype about how offer prices for trades have gone up because the used market is busier than the new market. I shopped the Matrix around to several places, and the best I got was $10,5 when KBB said $11,8 on trade. The Matrix was still under B2B warranty, only 29K miles.

    But as I said, I went ahead anyway, the fever was too strong! So far, the new car is so much better than the trade I am lovin' it! And I figure I'm keeping my membership up - that's the 3rd purchase in 39 months, 2 of which were new.

    Now tell me again, how much credit do I get on my tax return next year?!

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    for it's customary window tinting. Car really endeared itself to us on the trip. 31.4 MPG average with us doing about 70-80, with the ac on, and some stop-and-go traffic thrown in. Overall very satisfied with the car. The NAV system is great and it's comfortable.

    nippononly - Congrats on your new purchase. Step over to the right to get your CCB card stamped...
  • tifightertifighter Member Posts: 3,788
    Congrats nippon...a little surprised you went for the AWD route, but I do like current Impreza hatches. You have to message me the Toyo & Honda dealers you like in the Bay area...moving down there soon and may be in the market for a second car...

    25 NX 450h+ / 24 Sienna Plat AWD / 23 Civic Type-R / 21 Boxster GTS 4.0

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    about Subarus is they are one of the few cars left out there that feel like cars, rather than isolation chambers or appliances. Even really well made appliances still feel like appliances, which can be kind of a drag. I feel like Subarus still have some character to them, even if it makes them less than the perfect appliance.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,347
    they are one of the few cars left out there that feel like cars, rather than isolation chambers or appliances.

    That's one of the things I still like about my Mazdaspeed 3.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Yeah, the MS3 is another good example of what I am talking about. Not the rest of the Mazda3 line, just the Mazdaspeed.

    I almost decided to go with a Civic SI instead, which I would have liked too I think, but it has a lot less character than the Subaru does. In the end it was character and AWD that won me over.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Our Legacy wagon has what I would consider to be VERY aggressive suspension tuning for a midsized family car. You can feel the road, although not obtrusively, and you can feel the contact patches (which I see as a good thing). The car is about 3x more fun to drive than the Accord.
    One of the things I really like about it is that the pedals are arranged to heel - n -toe, even in dress shoes. Its just a lot more fun then a base model entry level wagon has any right to be.
    Oh, and 2800 lbs of towing capacity is very handy when renting uHaul trailers to bring home craigslist furniture finds. Or lawn/garden supplies.
    We have loved having our Legacy wagon, I am sure you will enjoy your Impreza.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I noticed that too: it was the only car I drove where I could feel the contact patches, something I sorely missed in the Matrix.

    It may be a coincidence, but the OBS is also the only car I drove that still has hydraulic power steering instead of electric. Electric power steering has taken one more chunk out of the fun of driving, IMO.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • oregonboyoregonboy Member Posts: 1,650
    Congrats on your new Subaru. I am a big fan of the Impreza wagon and have "Built my own" on the Subaru of America website a couple of times. One thing that I did notice in the process, the regular wagon doesn't come standard with all the features that the OBS has. The key missing item (as I recall) was stability control.

    By the time that you option the regular wagon to OBS levels, the price is pretty much the same. Personally, I prefer the monochrome paint on the regular Impreza, but it's nearly impossible to find one optioned the way I would want it in local dealers inventories. (Read that MANUAL transmission!)

    I also noticed that the OBS model now has virtually the same ground clearance as the standard Impreza wagon. :surprise:
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    The only height difference the OBS has ever had vs the regular car is the larger tires, and the amount of extra lift the larger rims and tires provide.

    However, with this latest model, they have gone to 205/50s on a 17" rim for the OBS, which has 10 mm less sidewall than the 205/55s the rest of the Imprezas run.

    But I really didn't buy it for the ground clearance - this thing won't be going offroad. I feel comfortable with enough ground clearance for going to the snow and down graded gravel roads, that's all I need.

    I think what you would be looking for is an Impreza 2.5i Premium, which is only about $500 less than the OBS if I understand it correctly. The Premium gets the VDC, the 10-speaker stereo, and the other niceties of the OBS (except all-weather package - heated seats mirrors and windshield), but adds a moonroof and deletes the 2-tone paint and 17" rims in favor of 16"ers.

    I find myself welcoming that thrumming 70s-VW-Beetle sound coming from the engine compartment every time I fire it up - it's like an old friend come back home to stay. :-)

    I could see why that (and the stick shift that shakes all around when the car is idling) would be a turn-off to many people, but to me it's just more of that character I bought the car for. ;-)

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

This discussion has been closed.