Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous (Archived)

qbrozen

greg128 said:

qbrozen said:

greg128 said:

found this on Craigslist near me and was ready to look and buy. Emailed him and he emailed back saying he just sold it to someone from Baltimore. Post is still up here:
https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/west-babylon-1999-camaro-z28-speed-56k/7263755592.html

Consider yourself lucky. Those things felt like they were falling apart straight from the factory, IMHO.

My son had a V-6 version and I thought it was fine. A few rattles but nothing major. The beauty of buying something like this is that it is cheap enough not to have to worry about garaging it and my driving it only a few thousand miles a year would not need collision insurance. It would be a fun ride and parts are cheap and I could sell it in a couple of years for more than I paid.

Maybe not if you leave it in the elements and don’t carry collision. Lol. My Charger was less than that Camaro and I keep that fully insured and protected. I love it too much to do otherwise.

corvette

andres3 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

nyccarguy said:

@oldfarmer50

Yes it is a lease. I will fix it.

That’s too bad, that kind of nonsense is bound to happen driving/parking in the city. A lot of owners just let minor scrapes go because they know if they fix it some yahoo will just hit it again.

With my luck only my pristinely clean cars get hit, the ones with scrapes, scratches, and chips never get hit.

My coworker has had amazing good luck with this sort of thing. Completely run down and beat up old car he wanted to replace, and it's burning copious amounts of oil, but has full coverage? Tree falls on it during a storm and he gets a check for about what a "clean" one would sell for at a dealer. Etc.

qbrozen

Had a run-in with a deer this evening with the wife’s bimmer. Son was with me. I managed to get the speed way down and punched into her back hip with just a few inches left before full stop. It made quite the THUNK. She flipped over, rolled into the street, at which point I thought I was going to be dealing with a dying animal, and then rolled back to her feet and stumbled a bit back to the side of the road she came from. After shaking it off, she was using all 4 legs, so I took that as a good sign. Remarkably, the car suffered no damage. The bumper actually did its job for once. BUT, the tow hook cover is MIA. I may go back in the morn and see if I can locate it.

stickguy

if that is all you lose hitting a deer, you got really lucky. Still scary seeing that in front of you.

xwesx

greg128 said:

found this on Craigslist near me and was ready to look and buy. Emailed him and he emailed back saying he just sold it to someone from Baltimore. Post is still up here:
https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/west-babylon-1999-camaro-z28-speed-56k/7263755592.html

very disappointed

Well-loved machine. That's not particularly common among the '90s Camaros.

xwesx

qbrozen said:

Had a run-in with a deer this evening with the wife’s bimmer. Son was with me. I managed to get the speed way down and punched into her back hip with just a few inches left before full stop. It made quite the THUNK. She flipped over, rolled into the street, at which point I thought I was going to be dealing with a dying animal, and then rolled back to her feet and stumbled a bit back to the side of the road she came from. After shaking it off, she was using all 4 legs, so I took that as a good sign. Remarkably, the car suffered no damage. The bumper actually did its job for once. BUT, the tow hook cover is MIA. I may go back in the morn and see if I can locate it.

Dang! Sounds like you all came out of that about as absolutely best as could be expected. You should just go "cool mode" and add a decorative tow ring to it. Preferably gold-colored.

corvette

xwesx said:

qbrozen said:

Had a run-in with a deer this evening with the wife’s bimmer. Son was with me. I managed to get the speed way down and punched into her back hip with just a few inches left before full stop. It made quite the THUNK. She flipped over, rolled into the street, at which point I thought I was going to be dealing with a dying animal, and then rolled back to her feet and stumbled a bit back to the side of the road she came from. After shaking it off, she was using all 4 legs, so I took that as a good sign. Remarkably, the car suffered no damage. The bumper actually did its job for once. BUT, the tow hook cover is MIA. I may go back in the morn and see if I can locate it.

Dang! Sounds like you all came out of that about as absolutely best as could be expected. You should just go "cool mode" and add a decorative tow ring to it. Preferably gold-colored.

My late grandparents and late great-aunt and great-uncle were fans of those bumper-mounted deer whistles which have been scientifically disproven. But, I think they were available in chrome. Would really give the Bimmer a unique look.

stickguy

putting the tow hook back on. Interesting way of hiding the missing piece at lease return!

xwesx

corvette said:

Dang! Sounds like you all came out of that about as absolutely best as could be expected. You should just go "cool mode" and add a decorative tow ring to it. Preferably gold-colored.

My late grandparents and late great-aunt and great-uncle were fans of those bumper-mounted deer whistles which have been scientifically disproven. But, I think they were available in chrome. Would really give the Bimmer a unique look.

My grandparents were also big fans of those. I don't know whether they help or not, but my grandmother credits her decades-long run of no moose strikes to those little whistlers.

qbrozen

xwesx said:

corvette said:

Dang! Sounds like you all came out of that about as absolutely best as could be expected. You should just go "cool mode" and add a decorative tow ring to it. Preferably gold-colored.

My late grandparents and late great-aunt and great-uncle were fans of those bumper-mounted deer whistles which have been scientifically disproven. But, I think they were available in chrome. Would really give the Bimmer a unique look.

My grandparents were also big fans of those. I don't know whether they help or not, but my grandmother credits her decades-long run of no moose strikes to those little whistlers.

https://youtu.be/fm2W0sq9ddU

au1994

xwesx said:

qbrozen said:

Had a run-in with a deer this evening with the wife’s bimmer. Son was with me. I managed to get the speed way down and punched into her back hip with just a few inches left before full stop. It made quite the THUNK. She flipped over, rolled into the street, at which point I thought I was going to be dealing with a dying animal, and then rolled back to her feet and stumbled a bit back to the side of the road she came from. After shaking it off, she was using all 4 legs, so I took that as a good sign. Remarkably, the car suffered no damage. The bumper actually did its job for once. BUT, the tow hook cover is MIA. I may go back in the morn and see if I can locate it.

Dang! Sounds like you all came out of that about as absolutely best as could be expected. You should just go "cool mode" and add a decorative tow ring to it. Preferably gold-colored.

I thought it had to be neon orange with a ribbon hanging off of it?

breld

As of today, we've gone down from 3 temp tags to just one.

We received the plates for my wife's Mini from Carvana yesterday. Only took 3 months. But given the current environment that's understandable. The crap part is that we told them over and over that we wanted the current plates transferred and took pictures as instructed of the current registration and plates. There was several hundreds of dollars of pro rated credit on those plates that we lost out on. They did exactly the same thing on my Miata when I traded it for the GTI. From that experience, I was on the phone with them several times to make sure it was clear we wanted the transfer.

Ugh.

pensfan83

A friend whom I helped get a cheap Tacoma lease 3 years ago asked for help in getting a Tundra this time. Was able to get him a Tundra TRD Off-Road Crewmax for $390 for 36/10 through Ally for ~$1,000 due at signing AND they cut a check to cover his dispo fee through USB. It seems to compares favorably with a well known LH broker across the state. I looked at Level 1 Ram Big Horns w/the Hemi but all of them were at least $450/month. The Tundra will serve its purpose well enough however.

nyccarguy

pensfan83 said:

A friend whom I helped get a cheap Tacoma lease 3 years ago asked for help in getting a Tundra this time. Was able to get him a Tundra TRD Off-Road Crewmax for $390 for 36/10 through Ally for ~$1,000 due at signing AND they cut a check to cover his dispo fee through USB. It seems to compares favorably with a well known LH broker across the state. I looked at Level 1 Ram Big Horns w/the Hemi but all of them were at least $450/month. The Tundra will serve its purpose well enough however.

Nice! I know a guy who currently leases a Tacoma that will be in the market for a full sized truck in a few months. Good to see the Tundra deals are out there.

pensfan83

Ha. I'll be sticking with a Tacoma though the new Frontier looks like it may be worth a look too.

The current Tundra deals aren't the sub-$300 leases we became accustomed to seeing but it's still decent for a full size pickup. Maybe they'll be back by the fall. The inside is cavernous but you may have reservations about the bed as it's shorter than your Tacoma and I don't think you can get a 6 foot bed with the Crew Max.

stickguy

The new frontier does look really nice. Plenty roomy and good bed. I’d much rather have that than a tundra.

nyccarguy

pensfan83 said:

Ha. I'll be sticking with a Tacoma though the new Frontier looks like it may be worth a look too.

The current Tundra deals aren't the sub-$300 leases we became accustomed to seeing but it's still decent for a full size pickup. Maybe they'll be back by the fall. The inside is cavernous but you may have reservations about the bed as it's shorter than your Tacoma and I don't think you can get a 6 foot bed with the Crew Max.

The broker suggested to me that I might have better luck (price & availability wise) looking into a 4 Full Door pickup with the short bed and get a bed extender. That Tail Gait is an Extra 2'.

The other day on my way to pickup my son from hockey practice, I accidentally stopped at the Ford Dealer. They had an F150 with a long bed and 2 small doors in the back parked next to an F150 with 4 Full Doors and a Short Bed. My Tacoma is about the same length. The 2021s are nice, but WOW! Those 2 trucks I parked next to were XL (Not even XLT) and had $48K Sticker Prices on them.

breld

nyccarguy said:

pensfan83 said:

Ha. I'll be sticking with a Tacoma though the new Frontier looks like it may be worth a look too.

The current Tundra deals aren't the sub-$300 leases we became accustomed to seeing but it's still decent for a full size pickup. Maybe they'll be back by the fall. The inside is cavernous but you may have reservations about the bed as it's shorter than your Tacoma and I don't think you can get a 6 foot bed with the Crew Max.

I accidentally stopped at the Ford Dealer.

That's funny.

I accidentally stopped at the Nissan dealer a few months ago and ended up with an extra car in my driveway.

tifighter

nyccarguy said:

pensfan83 said:

Ha. I'll be sticking with a Tacoma though the new Frontier looks like it may be worth a look too.

The current Tundra deals aren't the sub-$300 leases we became accustomed to seeing but it's still decent for a full size pickup. Maybe they'll be back by the fall. The inside is cavernous but you may have reservations about the bed as it's shorter than your Tacoma and I don't think you can get a 6 foot bed with the Crew Max.

The broker suggested to me that I might have better luck (price & availability wise) looking into a 4 Full Door pickup with the short bed and get a bed extender. That Tail Gait is an Extra 2'.

The other day on my way to pickup my son from hockey practice, I accidentally stopped at the Ford Dealer. They had an F150 with a long bed and 2 small doors in the back parked next to an F150 with 4 Full Doors and a Short Bed. My Tacoma is about the same length. The 2021s are nice, but WOW! Those 2 trucks I parked next to were XL (Not even XLT) and had $48K Sticker Prices on them.

Full size truck stickers are more conceptual then real world.

nyccarguy

breld said:

nyccarguy said:

pensfan83 said:

Ha. I'll be sticking with a Tacoma though the new Frontier looks like it may be worth a look too.

The current Tundra deals aren't the sub-$300 leases we became accustomed to seeing but it's still decent for a full size pickup. Maybe they'll be back by the fall. The inside is cavernous but you may have reservations about the bed as it's shorter than your Tacoma and I don't think you can get a 6 foot bed with the Crew Max.

I accidentally stopped at the Ford Dealer.

That's funny.

I accidentally stopped at the Nissan dealer a few months ago and ended up with an extra car in my driveway.

The dealership was closed:)-

qbrozen

wow. I need some backup here because I'm starting to think I'm crazy.

39/10k term
37185 MSRP
33751 Sale price
2250 incentive
695 acquisition
899 doc fee
577.60 DMV
764.96 tax
34437.56 cap cost
64% RV (23798.40)
10639.16 depreciation ($272.80/mo)
.00028 MF
16.31/mo rent charge ((34437.56+23798.40).00028=16.31))

$289.11/mo. (272.80+16.31)

Anybody see anything wrong with my math?

xwesx

qbrozen said:

wow. I need some backup here because I'm starting to think I'm crazy.


Anybody see anything wrong with my math?

No, assuming the incentive discount is AFTER the sale price and shouldn't be embedded within it. You mentioned on a previous note (the one where you posted the email string) that it should be after.

qbrozen

xwesx said:

qbrozen said:

wow. I need some backup here because I'm starting to think I'm crazy.


Anybody see anything wrong with my math?

No, assuming the incentive discount is AFTER the sale price and shouldn't be embedded within it. You mentioned on a previous note (the one where you posted the email string) that it should be after.

He actually walked through the numbers with me on the phone. Step by step. And we just say a different number at the end. Its crazy! He says "online calculators are always 70-100 low." Hmmm... you know that saying about if EVERYONE is wrong but you, maybe YOU are the one who is wrong?

xwesx

qbrozen said:

xwesx said:

qbrozen said:

wow. I need some backup here because I'm starting to think I'm crazy.


Anybody see anything wrong with my math?

No, assuming the incentive discount is AFTER the sale price and shouldn't be embedded within it. You mentioned on a previous note (the one where you posted the email string) that it should be after.

He actually walked through the numbers with me on the phone. Step by step. And we just say a different number at the end. Its crazy! He says "online calculators are always 70-100 low." Hmmm... you know that saying about if EVERYONE is wrong but you, maybe YOU are the one who is wrong?

Wow. They are trying to pull the wool over someone's eyes.... Makes me cry for the folks that do sign a lease with them. That's just nuts.

I can see one place where the math could go sideways... the 64% residual value.... I assume that value should be against MSRP, but if they were to take that against the capitalized cost, then it would leave a higher residual to put into the monthly payment (e.g., raise it from $272.80 to $317.89). Still doesn't push you toward 70-100 monthly, but it does create a mathematical divergence (rather than a magical one).

I cannot see that there would be any other place for a different outcome. If cap cost, money factor, and % residual are all the same on your worksheets, then the outcome should also be the same unless they are using a different base number for calculating the residual.

qbrozen

My guess is he comes back saying the sale price is already with the incentive .. although that argument wouldn't hold water since that is their sale price for a purchase, which does not have the 2250 incentive. Not to mention, as we walked through it, he clearly stated the incentive came off after the sale price.

xwesx

qbrozen said:

My guess is he comes back saying the sale price is already with the incentive .. although that argument wouldn't hold water since that is their sale price for a purchase, which does not have the 2250 incentive. Not to mention, as we walked through it, he clearly stated the incentive came off after the sale price.

I apologize for my piecemeal reply. I edited the response several times due to re-reading and it not coming back at me the way I meant to convey. LOL

Good luck!

kyfdx

qbrozen said:

My guess is he comes back saying the sale price is already with the incentive .. although that argument wouldn't hold water since that is their sale price for a purchase, which does not have the 2250 incentive. Not to mention, as we walked through it, he clearly stated the incentive came off after the sale price.

Yeah.. the sale price minus incentive is likely a different number than you've been told.
Also, they could have possibly marked up the money factor.

How far off are they?

qbrozen

kyfdx said:

qbrozen said:

My guess is he comes back saying the sale price is already with the incentive .. although that argument wouldn't hold water since that is their sale price for a purchase, which does not have the 2250 incentive. Not to mention, as we walked through it, he clearly stated the incentive came off after the sale price.

Yeah.. the sale price minus incentive is likely a different number than you've been told.
Also, they could have possibly marked up the money factor.

How far off are they?

About $50-$60. I double checked the MF with him.
I repeatedly stated "sale price before incentives." But you know how it goes. He claimed he is the manual math king, or some such absurdity, so I sent him my math and asked him to show me where we differ.

kyfdx

qbrozen said:

kyfdx said:

qbrozen said:

My guess is he comes back saying the sale price is already with the incentive .. although that argument wouldn't hold water since that is their sale price for a purchase, which does not have the 2250 incentive. Not to mention, as we walked through it, he clearly stated the incentive came off after the sale price.

Yeah.. the sale price minus incentive is likely a different number than you've been told.
Also, they could have possibly marked up the money factor.

How far off are they?

About $50-$60. I double checked the MF with him.
I repeatedly stated "sale price before incentives." But you know how it goes. He claimed he is the manual math king, or some such absurdity, so I sent him my math and asked him to show me where we differ.

$60/mo sure looks like a $2250 discrepancy

venture

xwesx said:

qbrozen said:

xwesx said:

qbrozen said:

wow. I need some backup here because I'm starting to think I'm crazy.


Anybody see anything wrong with my math?

No, assuming the incentive discount is AFTER the sale price and shouldn't be embedded within it. You mentioned on a previous note (the one where you posted the email string) that it should be after.

He actually walked through the numbers with me on the phone. Step by step. And we just say a different number at the end. Its crazy! He says "online calculators are always 70-100 low." Hmmm... you know that saying about if EVERYONE is wrong but you, maybe YOU are the one who is wrong?

Wow. They are trying to pull the wool over someone's eyes.... Makes me cry for the folks that do sign a lease with them. That's just nuts.

I can see one place where the math could go sideways... the 64% residual value.... I assume that value should be against MSRP, but if they were to take that against the capitalized cost, then it would leave a higher residual to put into the monthly payment (e.g., raise it from $272.80 to $317.89). Still doesn't push you toward 70-100 monthly, but it does create a mathematical divergence (rather than a magical one).

I cannot see that there would be any other place for a different outcome. If cap cost, money factor, and % residual are all the same on your worksheets, then the outcome should also be the same unless they are using a different base number for calculating the residual.

My friend has a Chevy dealership among other stuff. He admitted that a lease agreement is a license to steal.

28firefighter

The numbers will never add up! /s

corvette

Ortho doc confirmed I have a stress fracture in my foot. I already had a boot, and go to pick up a cane tomorrow... That should curb any car shopping. Kind of weird using my Fitbit to try to get as few steps in as possible!

tjc78

Q, math is right. Dealer is trying to hide that rebate making it up somewhere and trying to blame your “math”

kyfdx

corvette said:

Ortho doc confirmed I have a stress fracture in my foot. I already had a boot, and go to pick up a cane tomorrow... That should curb any car shopping. Kind of weird using my Fitbit to try to get as few steps in as possible!

bummer

xwesx

qbrozen said:

About $50-$60. I double checked the MF with him.
I repeatedly stated "sale price before incentives." But you know how it goes. He claimed he is the manual math king, or some such absurdity, so I sent him my math and asked him to show me where we differ.

Darn it. I cannot get this out of my head. Can you explain how the tax is calculated? It appears to be 6.625% for NJ, calculated on the value of the lease including incentives and fees, excluding DMV charges, plus any additional charges (such as money factor), but when I look at the math on your lease, you show the tax amount as part of the cap cost, and the money factor calculated off the cap (with tax), yet tax is charged on the money factor, so that would create a feedback loop.

If I calculate everything pre-tax, and then add the tax charge on it, then I end up with a slightly lower rate for the final monthly charge. So, how do you get tax prior to calculation of cap cost and monthly rent charge such that the number is then added into the rates without the feedback loop?

I look at the tax amount of $764.96 / 0.06625 = $11,546.57, and I cannot back into that number. I would think that government fees and taxes would be added to the rate after calculation of direct costs, but that's clearly not happening in this case.

That said, if I strip the incentive out of the equation, even with my tax calculation being in question, the rate jumps by $62.

kyfdx

xwesx said:

qbrozen said:

About $50-$60. I double checked the MF with him.
I repeatedly stated "sale price before incentives." But you know how it goes. He claimed he is the manual math king, or some such absurdity, so I sent him my math and asked him to show me where we differ.

Darn it. I cannot get this out of my head. Can you explain how the tax is calculated? It appears to be 6.625% for NJ, calculated on the value of the lease including incentives and fees, excluding DMV charges, plus any additional charges (such as money factor), but when I look at the math on your lease, you show the tax amount as part of the cap cost, and the money factor calculated off the cap (with tax), yet tax is charged on the money factor, so that would create a feedback loop.

If I calculate everything pre-tax, and then add the tax charge on it, then I end up with a slightly lower rate for the final monthly charge. So, how do you get tax prior to calculation of cap cost and monthly rent charge such that the number is then added into the rates without the feedback loop?

I look at the tax amount of $764.96 / 0.06625 = $11,546.57, and I cannot back into that number. I would think that government fees and taxes would be added to the rate after calculation of direct costs, but that's clearly not happening in this case.

That said, if I strip the incentive out of the equation, even with my tax calculation being in question, the rate jumps by $62.

Tax is due upfront. They calculate it before rolling it into the CAP, so it doesn't affect the tax (no loop)

pensfan83

Is that the Virginia dealer?

corvette

kyfdx said:

corvette said:

Ortho doc confirmed I have a stress fracture in my foot. I already had a boot, and go to pick up a cane tomorrow... That should curb any car shopping. Kind of weird using my Fitbit to try to get as few steps in as possible!

bummer

Can’t win for losing... the boot has already rubbed a blister onto my big toe, so I worked from my bed today. Ordered pizza just now and they left someone else’s order on my porch. *facepalm*

sda

corvette said:

kyfdx said:

corvette said:

Ortho doc confirmed I have a stress fracture in my foot. I already had a boot, and go to pick up a cane tomorrow... That should curb any car shopping. Kind of weird using my Fitbit to try to get as few steps in as possible!

bummer

Can’t win for losing... the boot has already rubbed a blister onto my big toe, so I worked from my bed today. Ordered pizza just now and they left someone else’s order on my porch. *facepalm*

As dad has always said and I would get mad when he did but now say the same, “nothing comes easy.” Hope things get better for you pronto.

breld

My handy dandy lease spreadsheet comes up with the same $289/month that you have. If I exclude the $2,250 down payment (I assume that's how the incentive should be handled), the monthly goes up to $348.

So yes, seems as though they're playing around with the incentive.

au1994

corvette said:

kyfdx said:

corvette said:

Ortho doc confirmed I have a stress fracture in my foot. I already had a boot, and go to pick up a cane tomorrow... That should curb any car shopping. Kind of weird using my Fitbit to try to get as few steps in as possible!

bummer

Can’t win for losing... the boot has already rubbed a blister onto my big toe, so I worked from my bed today. Ordered pizza just now and they left someone else’s order on my porch. *facepalm*

Hate to hear that given your condition. Must be something in the water as we have had 3 bad experiences with online orders lately. UberEats somehow didn’t transfer our entry order to the restaurant even though it was on their confirmation, Slice (a pizza app) told me my order was ready and I swear they never started the pizza till I pulled up and then Jimmy Johns app totally screwed one sandwich with the no mayo and tomato being on it.

roadburner

corvette said:

kyfdx said:

corvette said:

Ortho doc confirmed I have a stress fracture in my foot. I already had a boot, and go to pick up a cane tomorrow... That should curb any car shopping. Kind of weird using my Fitbit to try to get as few steps in as possible!

bummer

Can’t win for losing... the boot has already rubbed a blister onto my big toe, so I worked from my bed today. Ordered pizza just now and they left someone else’s order on my porch. *facepalm*

That stinks- I'll go car shopping for you if that helps any...

xwesx

kyfdx said:

Tax is due upfront. They calculate it before rolling it into the CAP, so it doesn't affect the tax (no loop)

Makes sense, but I still don't see the the source numbers adding up to the tax amount listed. That's why I was hoping for a "lead a dummy like me through the tax calculation" response.

ab348

corvette said:

Ortho doc confirmed I have a stress fracture in my foot. I already had a boot, and go to pick up a cane tomorrow... That should curb any car shopping. Kind of weird using my Fitbit to try to get as few steps in as possible!

I had one of those nearly 20 years ago. In my case I got a non-walking cast, no fun. Cast came off after a couple of weeks but foot was sore for a while after that. Favoring the foot at that stage, I screwed up my back. Watch out for that.

corvette

au1994 said:

Must be something in the water as we have had 3 bad experiences with online orders lately.

I've experienced the same, and have been pretty tolerant when things have been slightly off, since I feel bad that these establishments have generally lost a lot of business due to the pandemic.

That said, my local Cuban place has knocked it out of the park every time I've done an online carryout order with them (over 30 since the pandemic began), with no issues whatsoever.

xwesx

corvette said:

au1994 said:

Must be something in the water as we have had 3 bad experiences with online orders lately.

I've experienced the same, and have been pretty tolerant when things have been slightly off, since I feel bad that these establishments have generally lost a lot of business due to the pandemic.

That said, my local Cuban place has knocked it out of the park every time I've done an online carryout order with them (over 30 since the pandemic began), with no issues whatsoever.

My favorite BBQ place always knocks it out of the pork.

tifighter

Where's the groan emoji?

28firefighter

@qbrozen - I can't believe you're still putting the effort in here. I'd be so disgusted with these dealers I wouldn't even want the car anymore...

tjc78

28firefighter said:

@qbrozen - I can't believe you're still putting the effort in here. I'd be so disgusted with these dealers I wouldn't even want the car anymore...

Thrill of the hunt.

I went through at least 15 dealers to get the S60. It became a quest at that point.

Mom’s RAV took nearly double digits too.

pensfan83

I Iike the challenge as much as anyone but these dealers are maniacal. I'm frustrated as a mere bystander.