Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous (Archived)

benjaminh

Fair enough. Whether it's number of cycles or years or something else, the batteries do eventually fail on Teslas, and once-in-a-while (although rarely) even before they are 10 years old. This 2014 Tesla had its batteries fail after 7.5 years and 100k miles, just before the warranty expired. If the warranty had expired fixing the batteries might have cost the owner as much as $20k.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYZ2ArCaPKU
"In April 2019, Musk claimed replacing the battery modules — not the complete pack — of a Tesla Model 3 will cost between $5,000 and $7,000. FindMyElectric found in April 2021 that Tesla battery replacements, including labor, tend to cost a bit more:
Between $13,000 to $20,000 for a Model S premium sedan
At least $14,000 for a Model X premium SUV
At least $13,000 for the Model 3 entry-level sedan"

https://www.inverse.com/innovation/tesla-battery-life-replacement-cost#:~:text=In April 2019, Musk claimed,500,000 miles or 1,500 cycles

fintail

My old/fun car will remain a gasoline car as long as we can buy gasoline, which will likely be at least until I am an old man, if not more. The mechanical/analog feel of such cars is something EVs will never be able to replace or even mimic.

roadburner said:

fintail said:

I have my doubts about mainline MB and BMW customers jumping ship en masse - there are a lot of traditionalist/brand loyalist types with both brands (for example, both have among the most devoted and longest lived club scene). It will be interesting to see how sales fare, and bearing in mind legacy brands are unveiling their own EVs - some that might have a more interesting design language than Tesla. Competition improves all.

Personally, I expect to keep my gasoline car though the decade. Come 2030, assuming finances allow and we haven't been nuked etc, might be when I go electric, but right now anyway I am doubting it would be Tesla, and probably won't be before then. I want more sweet sweet range, useful range at normal speeds with ICE and HVAC in use.

MB just released a long range concept, no doubt witheringly expensive - at least for now

benjaminh said:

“The Model Y line will be the highest-capacity line, I think, of any line in the world. In fact, I’m confident it will be,” Musk, dressed in a black cowboy hat, black sunglasses and black Giga Texas T-shirt, told attendees. “Half a million units a year in a single factory of one product is the biggest dang thing in the world. This will be the highest volume car factory in America.”

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2022/04/07/elon-musk-opens-teslas-giga-texas-that--he-says-is-the-biggest-us-plant/?sh=1853755b1fe2

In 2021 Honda/Acura sold about 1.4 million in the US, while Tesla sold about 300,000.

In 2022 Honda will again likely sell about 1.4 million, while Tesla will probably increase to around 900,000.

As chip supplies grow, in 2023 Honda/Acura might be able to make and sell c. 1.6 million, while Tesla will likely get to around 1.4 million.

By 2024 things will probably be about tied, with each one selling about 1.6 million vehicles in the US. Honda and Acura combined currently have about a 10% share of the market, and so that means that Tesla will also have about 10% of the market. Since Tesla's least expensive Model 3 now lists for almost $50,000, I'm guessing that Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Cadillac, Acura, and Lincoln will be hardest hit. But I'm sure there are some people who previously would have gotten a loaded Toyota, Honda, Ford, Chevy, etc. who will now instead order a Tesla.

I'm still not interested in an EV to replace any of my "fun" cars; that said, if forced I'd go with a PHEV 2er or 3er.

stickguy

there was a good series on rich rebuilds (crossed over to Hoovie who used it) about doing cell replacements instead. IIRC the packs are basically just a whole bunch of individual smaller cells (like having 10 AAs in a flashlight). Tesla will only replace the full pack (so maybe 1000 cells? guessing at that). But Rich's company can test and replace just the cells needed for much less money.

28firefighter

I’ll take an EV as a daily driver any day of the week over internal combustion at this point. Quieter, faster, and more comfortable. Not having to hit a gas station and spending a fraction on energy costs is just an added bonus…

Michaell

28firefighter said:

I’ll take an EV as a daily driver any day of the week over internal combustion at this point. Quieter, faster, and more comfortable. Not having to hit a gas station and spending a fraction on energy costs is just an added bonus…

Time to update your signature line?

28firefighter

Forgot. Was at my first conference in 2.5 years this week. Been recovering since I got back Thursday.

fintail

A lot less waste that way, too, which is still an elephant in the room. I still think it would be cool to have quickly swappable battery packs - no need to charge if you could just pull up and switch out the unit in 5-10 mins max, no different than a full refuel. But the logistics would be insane, I am sure, as we aren't even there for charging stations yet.

I guess this tech never caught on:

https://youtu.be/0k1tbf8muMc

stickguy said:

there was a good series on rich rebuilds (crossed over to Hoovie who used it) about doing cell replacements instead. IIRC the packs are basically just a whole bunch of individual smaller cells (like having 10 AAs in a flashlight). Tesla will only replace the full pack (so maybe 1000 cells? guessing at that). But Rich's company can test and replace just the cells needed for much less money.

tjc78

@28firefighter said:
Forgot. Was at my first conference in 2.5 years this week. Been recovering since I got back Thursday.

Haha getting after it a little?

Michaell

28firefighter said:

Forgot. Was at my first conference in 2.5 years this week. Been recovering since I got back Thursday.

Actual, honest to god business travel? What a novelty.

Congrats on the sale. Whoever is getting it is getting a damn nice vehicle, based on your posts over the years.

benjaminh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZd8g1s8Fno

28firefighter

@tjc78 said:

@28firefighter said:
Forgot. Was at my first conference in 2.5 years this week. Been recovering since I got back Thursday.

Haha getting after it a little?

I wish. No. Just having to be around that many people that many hours of the day. Plus just conference events running late into the evening past my bedtime.

28firefighter

@Michaell said:
Actual, honest to god business travel? What a novelty.

Congrats on the sale. Whoever is getting it is getting a damn nice vehicle, based on your posts over the years.

They’re for sure an enthusiast. It was important to me it goes to someone who will keep up the condition of it.

oldfarmer50

henryn said:

benjaminh said:

oldfarmer50 said:

....For people of modest means who could never afford a new EV, buying a used one (10+ years old) might be a gamble. I own a gas powered 22 year old car that runs fine. The reliability of a similarly aged EV is an unknown.

Back in 1981 Indiana Jones famously said: "It's not the years—it's the mileage."
For EV batteries and vehicles we can reverse that: "It's not the mileage—it's the years."

I'm sorry to break it to you, but you've got that completely backwards. For batteries, it is not years, it is the number of charge cycles.

https://www.inverse.com/innovation/tesla-battery-life-replacement-cost#:~:text=In April 2019, Musk claimed,500,000 miles or 1,500 cycles.

For the Tesla Model 3, released in 2017, the company’s warranty covers the first eight years or 100,000 miles on the entry-level model, whichever comes first. If the battery capacity during the warranty period falls below 70 percent, Tesla covers the necessary repairs.

In April 2019, Musk claimed on Twitter that the Model 3 drive unit and body are designed to last for a million miles. However, the current battery modules should last 300,000 to 500,000 miles or 1,500 cycles. That would mean the battery would require replacing once or twice over the vehicle’s lifetime.

A survey of 350 Tesla owners in Europe found that their cars dropped around five percent of their capacity after 50,000 miles before dropping much slower thereafter. The group extrapolated the data to claim they would have lost 20 percent of the original capacity after 500,000 miles.

I can tell you from personal experience, the lithium ion batteries used in my Ego string trimmer last about 4 years. The run time on a new battery is about 45 minutes, and that gradually diminishes. After roughly 4 years (+/- 160 to 200 charge cycles), the run time falls to about 10 or 15 minutes, and I replace the battery.



Regardless of how they degrade what you have here are vehicles which might not be suitable for Joe sixpack’s travel to work.

tjc78

@28firefighter said:

@tjc78 said:

@28firefighter said:
Forgot. Was at my first conference in 2.5 years this week. Been recovering since I got back Thursday.

Haha getting after it a little?

I wish. No. Just having to be around that many people that many hours of the day. Plus just conference events running late into the evening past my bedtime.

Gotcha. I haven’t been to anything in going on 4 years. I think it’s just fine with me. We are working in a store only 30 minutes from my shore house and the boss and I are meeting up along with another co-worker for a walkthrough and lunch. It almost seems like a novel idea these days lol.

pensfan83

I have my first conference since 2019 next week in DC. My company only recently removed most travel restrictions though they did allow it for acquisition related travel as I had to travel to Texas a few times.

breld

I’ve been traveling plenty this year - had a few weeks in a row in March, one where I was on a plane every day Monday through Thursday. And I have four straight weeks coming up starting at the end of April…Austin for a conference, then Vegas for a regional meeting, then London for a fun trip for my wife and I, and then a trip to Houston for work meetings.

For that Austin conference, there’s an afternoon of recreation at the Circuit of the Americas, including a ride-along experience in a supercar. @michaell had to fill me in on what COTA was. And @28firefighter is in Austin that same week, though probably doubtful we can coordinate to meet up.

28firefighter

@breld said:
I’ve been traveling plenty this year - had a few weeks in a row in March, one where I was on a plane every day Monday through Thursday. And I have four straight weeks coming up starting at the end of April…Austin for a conference, then Vegas for a regional meeting, then London for a fun trip for my wife and I, and then a trip to Houston for work meetings.

For that Austin conference, there’s an afternoon of recreation at the Circuit of the Americas, including a ride-along experience in a supercar. @michaell had to fill me in on what COTA was. And @28firefighter is in Austin that same week, though probably doubtful we can coordinate to meet up.

This sounds awesome. I think my meetings in Austin include a night at top golf. I’ll take the ride along experience any day.

corvette

@breld - COTA is cool, my dad and I went to a MotoGP race there once. I hope the traffic congestion has improved since we were there (around 2011)--it was by far the worst traffic I've ever driven in, including Atlanta, Miami, and Boston.

ronsteve

fintail said:

My old/fun car will remain a gasoline car as long as we can buy gasoline, which will likely be at least until I am an old man, if not more. The mechanical/analog feel of such cars is something EVs will never be able to replace or even mimic.

roadburner said:

fintail said:

Personally, I expect to keep my gasoline car though the decade. Come 2030, assuming finances allow and we haven't been nuked etc, might be when I go electric, but right now anyway I am doubting it would be Tesla, and probably won't be before then. I want more sweet sweet range, useful range at normal speeds with ICE and HVAC in use.

I'm still not interested in an EV to replace any of my "fun" cars; that said, if forced I'd go with a PHEV 2er or 3er.

I can't wrap my brain around full-on EV until range improves and charging is as quick and available as gas stations. I could go hybrid with my next vehicle, which if I did that soon the Venza is the only likely candidate.

But there are some pure ICE options I might be inclined to explore sooner than later, in which case I would hope to go another decade before going hybrid (or by then, EV).

benjaminh

As Tesla sales explode building out the Supercharger network fast enough is going to be one of the challenges. Here's a recent video of Tesla owners waiting at a station in Las Vegas. The in-car app is telling this owner the other stations in LV are full or close to full too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfUJCWRFjig

fintail

I wonder what the gas station lines were like

This is a big factor in what makes me hesitant. Around town I would just charge at home, but on a trip, I'd become irked pretty quickly. Not that I don't want to spend an hour or more hanging around downtown Aberdeen or on the highway in Ritzville waiting for a charge.

benjaminh said:

As Tesla sales explode building out the Supercharger network fast enough is going to be one of the challenges. Here's a recent video of Tesla owners waiting at a station in Las Vegas. The in-car app is telling this owner the other stations in LV are full or close to full too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfUJCWRFjig

fintail

I had a conference in FL last month. I was amazed at how many I spoke who are based in the southeast are still WFH (my office in a reasonably progressive area is hybrid, with more pressure to become more hybrid apparently, as numerous job candidates are still holding their ground with WFH, amusing to see the old guard in crisis mode).

It was a fun adventure, but hopefully the only real work trip this year.

pensfan83 said:

I have my first conference since 2019 next week in DC. My company only recently removed most travel restrictions though they did allow it for acquisition related travel as I had to travel to Texas a few times.

oldfarmer50

benjaminh said:

As Tesla sales explode building out the Supercharger network fast enough is going to be one of the challenges. Here's a recent video of Tesla owners waiting at a station in Las Vegas. The in-car app is telling this owner the other stations in LV are full or close to full too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfUJCWRFjig

I would think out in an extremely sunny location like Las Vegas Tesla would put solar panels on the roof of the car and let it change itself.

henryn

I saw my first Santa Fe Santa Cruz yesterday, out on the highway. I drove alongside for a short while and had the chance to check it out. If these were normal times, I would test drive one to compare to a Maverick, but alas ...

And speaking of a Maverick, I still haven't seen one of those.

ON EDIT: yes, Santa Cruz, not Santa Fe. My bad.

Sandman6472

Think you mean the Santa Cruz which is Hyundai's model. Have seen a few up close & overall, prefer them to the Maverick. Guessing they'd be a bit more money also but that's something I'd pay if it is a better vehicle. Have a feeling in the next few years, other companies will be building sub-compact pick-up's to meet the growing demand. For many folks, like myself, if a small truck was needed, I'd be looking at either of these vehicles. Drives like a small sedan but has the versatility of a small bed out back perfect for trips to Lowe's or H D. Not sure it would fit on my side of the garage but heck, if needed one, I'd just park it outside.
Speaking of trucks, had the handyman over yesterday and he was driving a newer Toyota Tundra and was surprised at how nice it really is. Looked inside and was pretty plush looking in there. He said it was indeed a really nice vehicle. It was a medium blue with black sport wheels which I must say looked pretty good on it.

xwesx

I have a feeling that the downside to Tesla's approach to manufacturing is going to catch up with them fairly soon. These "giga" stamp things that they have mean that their ability to change the vehicles is limited to their willingness to invest in new, and extremely expensive, stamps.

I may be off base here, but I'm pretty sure that all of their models look just like they did the day they were released. Yes, the tech and features on the inside have changed dramatically, but I'm pretty sure the day will come when people just aren't willing to plunk down a huge chunk of change on a vehicle that looks just like every other one that is on the road, and has been on the road, for 5, 10, or even 15 years at that point.

And, how long has it been since they introduced the Cybertruck? Years now, and still no production. That's bordering on embarrassing. But, hey, it does create a whole lot of hype.

benjaminh

Overall I feel like Tesla has been a good thing. My old home state of California was trying to get EVs going since the 1990s, and probably their efforts helped a bit, but the game changer has been the impressive engineering that Tesla has put into all aspects of their vehicles.

In terms of design, it seems like the Model 3 is probably an iconic vehicle that belongs in museums along with other landmark cars of the past, from the Model T on down. There are some parallels between the way Henry Ford engineered and mass-manufactured the Model T and what's going on today with the Model 3 and Model Y. Ford was hugely invested in vertical integration, owning mines, glass factories, rubber plants, etc., and when that worked it helped with the quality and price of a Ford. Ford was also obsessed with factories and production processes, and ramping things up to huge numbers. As we know, Tesla is similarly invested, by necessity, in controlling all the phases of the production of batteries, as well as all of the other components that go into a Tesla. And Musk is also obsessed with factories and manufacturing. And like the Model T, which looked pretty much the same for more than 15 years, Tesla goes for long product cycles with running improvements along the way. He's seemingly ditched the whole planned stylistic obsolescence that GM pioneered back in the 1920s and 1930s.

Musk recently said: “At this point, I think I know more about manufacturing than anyone currently alive on Earth.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/04/14/elon-musk-ted-talk/

He might be right, even though the quality of Tesla vehicles has sometimes been mixed. But anyway, this new factory in Austin is going to be a big deal when it starts building 1 million EVs a year.

Telsa does have plans to triple the Supercharger network. They're working on it, but there are challenges as described in this article in terms of finding land, getting permits, etc. But Tesla has developed a pre-fab Supercharger station that can be installed in about a week.

https://electrek.co/2022/03/01/tesla-unveils-supercharger-station-pre-fabricated-system/

Soon the adoption of EVs on a mass scale is going to start changing some things that we see around us. For instance, some old style gas stations are going to die as the new Superchargers and other EV networks are installed. In some cities like mine there are a few old gas stations that look like they've been abandoned for decades. The toxic stuff makes these sites difficult to redevelop. I hope Tesla starts buying up these old abandoned gas stations and gives them new life.

ab348

The only Tesla vehicle whose design I like is the Model S. The 3 is really awkward looking.

mrwhipple311

Seeing some Santa Cruz talk; I can weigh in. Bought mine in December 4k miles. Very happy with it.

The Maverick got me in the market to replace my 98 S10 and if the Hybrid Maverick was not made of unobtanium I may have wound up with one. I did look/drive one XL NA motor and the interior felt very Fisher Price and the seating position was not comfortable for me. This stopped me from pursuing the order option. Have not looked at a higher trim level and the experience may be very different - don't know.

Went to look at a Santa Cruz that was on the ground. I was impressed with the quality although being an SEL Premium the creature comforts options are different than an XL Maverick. Liked it enough that I decided I was going to try to find one at MSRP.

They had a 2.5K ADM on it, I said I don't do ADMs and they dropped it, got 0% and 7k for a hail damaged 10 year old Elantra.

No issues to this point; very happy.

benjaminh

I consider John McElroy one of the gurus of the industry. Once in a while I've watched him on the video program Autoline daily, which has now been taken over by his son Sean McElroy, who I think is just as good.

http://www.autoline.tv/

Anyway, in this recent 3-minute video John gives some interesting statistics, including the interesting fact that VW is spending by far the most on R & D of any car company in the world.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHaHpeFqT68

Here's the bio page for John McElroy....

http://www.autoline.tv/whatisad/

benjaminh

Here's a 9-minute episode of the regular show from a couple of days ago. Just learned here that Honda hopes to have 50% of its sales go hybrid in the next few years. And BMW says internal combustion engines are still a big part of their future plans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9DEoDI3H6o

henryn

xwesx said:

I have a feeling that the downside to Tesla's approach to manufacturing is going to catch up with them fairly soon. These "giga" stamp things that they have mean that their ability to change the vehicles is limited to their willingness to invest in new, and extremely expensive, stamps.

I may be off base here, but I'm pretty sure that all of their models look just like they did the day they were released. Yes, the tech and features on the inside have changed dramatically, but I'm pretty sure the day will come when people just aren't willing to plunk down a huge chunk of change on a vehicle that looks just like every other one that is on the road, and has been on the road, for 5, 10, or even 15 years at that point.

And, how long has it been since they introduced the Cybertruck? Years now, and still no production. That's bordering on embarrassing. But, hey, it does create a whole lot of hype.

Does anyone else remember the VW bug? How many years did they make that car, with it looking essentially the same from year to year? As I recall, that was one of the selling points.

I myself would have absolutely no problem with the sheet metal not changing from year to year.

benjaminh

The new F-150 Lightning looks good in this 8-minute video from the NY auto show. And anyone who got an order in for the $41k entry-level model got a real bargain, because I think it qualifies for the 7.5k federal tax rebate. Ford plans to make 150,000 of these in 2023, and maybe 75k this year. The "Mega Power Frunk" does actually look quite functional.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSzM4avOFyY

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2022/01/04/ford-planning-to-nearly-double-all-electric-f-150-lightning-production-150000-units.html

"DEARBORN, Mich., Jan. 4, 2022 – Ford Motor Company said today it is planning to nearly double production of the F-150 Lightning™ pickup at the Rouge Electric Vehicle Center in Dearborn to 150,000 trucks per year....

“With nearly 200,000 reservations, our teams are working hard and creatively to break production constraints to get more F-150 Lightning trucks into the hands of our customers,” said Kumar Galhotra, president of The Americas & International Markets Group, Ford Motor Company. “The reality is clear: People are ready for an all-electric F-150 and Ford is pulling out all the stops to scale our operations and increase production capacity.”

....Flexibility is key to Ford’s production system and the way teams are now working to deliver the company’s future lineup of electric vehicles. To deliver this latest increase, a small task force of employees from manufacturing, purchasing, strategy, product development and capacity planning are finding ways to quickly adapt and expand production of the groundbreaking pickup. Ford is working with key suppliers – as well as with its own manufacturing facilities Rawsonville Components Plant and Van [non-permissible content removed] Electric Powertrain Center – to find ways to increase capacity of electric vehicle parts, including battery cells, battery trays and electric drive systems....

Production of the 2022 F-150 Lightning pickup will begin this spring at a starting MSRP of $39,974 before potential federal tax incentives. Ford is committed to leading the electric vehicle revolution, investing more than $30 billion in electric vehicles through 2025. Over the next two years, Ford aims to emerge as the clear No. 2 electric vehicle maker in North America and then challenge the No. 1 spot...."

Michaell

benjaminh said:

The new F-150 Lightning looks good in this 8-minute video from the NY auto show. And anyone who got an order in for the $41k entry-level model got a real bargain, because I think it qualifies for the 7.5k federal tax rebate. Ford plans to make 150,000 of these in 2023, and maybe 75k this year. The "Mega Power Frunk" does actually look quite functional.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSzM4avOFyY

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2022/01/04/ford-planning-to-nearly-double-all-electric-f-150-lightning-production-150000-units.html

"DEARBORN, Mich., Jan. 4, 2022 – Ford Motor Company said today it is planning to nearly double production of the F-150 Lightning™ pickup at the Rouge Electric Vehicle Center in Dearborn to 150,000 trucks per year....

“With nearly 200,000 reservations, our teams are working hard and creatively to break production constraints to get more F-150 Lightning trucks into the hands of our customers,” said Kumar Galhotra, president of The Americas & International Markets Group, Ford Motor Company. “The reality is clear: People are ready for an all-electric F-150 and Ford is pulling out all the stops to scale our operations and increase production capacity.”

....Flexibility is key to Ford’s production system and the way teams are now working to deliver the company’s future lineup of electric vehicles. To deliver this latest increase, a small task force of employees from manufacturing, purchasing, strategy, product development and capacity planning are finding ways to quickly adapt and expand production of the groundbreaking pickup. Ford is working with key suppliers – as well as with its own manufacturing facilities Rawsonville Components Plant and Van [non-permissible content removed] Electric Powertrain Center – to find ways to increase capacity of electric vehicle parts, including battery cells, battery trays and electric drive systems....

Production of the 2022 F-150 Lightning pickup will begin this spring at a starting MSRP of $39,974 before potential federal tax incentives. Ford is committed to leading the electric vehicle revolution, investing more than $30 billion in electric vehicles through 2025. Over the next two years, Ford aims to emerge as the clear No. 2 electric vehicle maker in North America and then challenge the No. 1 spot...."

I'll go on record right here, right now and predict Ford will build the absolute minimum number of base level F-150 Lightnings.

Too much profit in the higher trim levels.

benjaminh

From that press release from Ford: "With unprecedented demand for the Mustang Mach-E, Ford earlier announced it will increase production starting this year and expects to reach 200,000-plus units per year by 2023."

Model Y, I.D.4, or Mustang Mach-E?

We plan to keep our 2018 CR-V for several more years, but if I had to choose an electric suv I might go with the Ford.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oGv2c00dFY

corvette

I think the ID.4 Pro 4S is the cheapest AWD of the bunch. A queue at a charging station on a long trip would really annoy me--in terms of time, you're already spending an order of magnitude longer than it takes to fill up an ICE vehicle. The prospect of doubling or tripling that is not attractive. On the other hand, on a long trip, you have some flexibility to recharge in less congested areas, if you know ahead of time what those areas are likely to be.

I put about 1,415 miles on the rental Ford Edge. It averaged almost 26 MPG in generally sedate, mostly highway driving. I refilled with premium except for the last stop before I returned it to Hertz.

corvette

BTW, I think of Musk as a crazier, more fanatical Steve Jobs. Almost like a version of Jobs for the meme stock era. He has a lot of nutty views, but even a stopped clock is right twice a day. BTW, Inspiration4 Mission to Space is an excellent Netflix documentary focusing on SpaceX and that mission in particular. I also watched the more recent one (focusing on Musk and SpaceX) and thought it had a lot more puffery.

fintail

A Beetle cost as much as a fancy dinner, and was almost a reverse status symbol.

A Tesla is still something to flaunt, and trades at an above average price point, the more posh models landing solidly in 6 figures. A Beetle, it aint

That being said, Musk could demand it be styled like an Aztek or any other derided designs, and the base would eat it up.

henryn said:

xwesx said:

I have a feeling that the downside to Tesla's approach to manufacturing is going to catch up with them fairly soon. These "giga" stamp things that they have mean that their ability to change the vehicles is limited to their willingness to invest in new, and extremely expensive, stamps.

I may be off base here, but I'm pretty sure that all of their models look just like they did the day they were released. Yes, the tech and features on the inside have changed dramatically, but I'm pretty sure the day will come when people just aren't willing to plunk down a huge chunk of change on a vehicle that looks just like every other one that is on the road, and has been on the road, for 5, 10, or even 15 years at that point.

And, how long has it been since they introduced the Cybertruck? Years now, and still no production. That's bordering on embarrassing. But, hey, it does create a whole lot of hype.

Does anyone else remember the VW bug? How many years did they make that car, with it looking essentially the same from year to year? As I recall, that was one of the selling points.

I myself would have absolutely no problem with the sheet metal not changing from year to year.

nyccarguy

Went to the NY Auto Show this year. 1st time it’s been open in 3 years. Let’s start with the good stuff. I can’t say enough good things about the Ford display, They had a gorgeous Mustang Mach I. A Bronco Raptor, a 2 Door Bronco with a stick. They also had an electric car ride along. We were in an F150 Platinum Lightning. Wow is that truck fast.

nyccarguy

oldfarmer50

corvette said:

I think the ID.4 Pro 4S is the cheapest AWD of the bunch. A queue at a charging station on a long trip would really annoy me--in terms of time, you're already spending an order of magnitude longer than it takes to fill up an ICE vehicle. The prospect of doubling or tripling that is not attractive. On the other hand, on a long trip, you have some flexibility to recharge in less congested areas, if you know ahead of time what those areas are likely to be.

I put about 1,415 miles on the rental Ford Edge. It averaged almost 26 MPG in generally sedate, mostly highway driving. I refilled with premium except for the last stop before I returned it to Hertz.

I’m sure Hertz appreciated you spending more for premium but all rental car companies use RUG on their cars regardless of make or model.

oldfarmer50

nyccarguy said:

The Mach 1 had a stiff ADM even before the shortage. Who knows what obscene mark up their doing now.

nyccarguy

More auto show photos. I didn’t take a picture, but the new WRX is hideous. They did have a new GR86 & BRZ as well. I love the Supra. It’s gorgeous!

nyccarguy

Here’s a GR Corolla

nyccarguy

One more positive note. My son is 15 1/2 and will be turning 16 in September. We were at the Toyota display and I noticed him chatting with one of the "product specialists." I asked him what he was talking to the guy about. He told me he told the guy he liked the Corolla and asked if it came with a manual. "Yes" They make a Corolla SE APEX with a 6-Speed Stick. Maybe he does listen after all.

Now the bad. Over the years I have watched the NY Auto Show grow and balloon to the point where it was close to unmanageable to see the whole thing. It was back to being 1 level in the Javitz Center. There were so many manufacturers missing:

BMW
Mini
Mercedes-Benz
Audi
Honda
Acura
Mazda

mjfloyd1

Toyota Cheshire Cat smile

https://tenor.com/view/smile-big-smile-cats-creepy-big-teeth-gif-11848344

ab348

nyccarguy said:

Now the bad. Over the years I have watched the NY Auto Show grow and balloon to the point where it was close to unmanageable to see the whole thing. It was back to being 1 level in the Javitz Center. There were so many manufacturers missing:

BMW
Mini
Mercedes-Benz
Audi
Honda
Acura
Mazda

Since most of them have no inventory to sell, I can understand them not being there.

laurasdada

Charging station updates: As I learn the lay of the new land of where I now reside; finding free charging stations has become a part of the game. At the closest outdoor Mall, there are four stations, two pairs a couple hundred yards apart.
First pair in a Starbucks parking lot were unoccupied; I pulled up, hopped out to plug in and... both were offline.
Second pair, hidden at the very end of one strip section of the mall, unoccupied and functional. After much walking, as this location was rather far from my destination, I returned to a fully topped off tank of shock therapy. More than enough to get me home sans poking the sleeping TRex.
So, 50% of the stations unavailable for my trip. Adding in the two stations that disappeared from the very small, local strip mall where I also shop, it does give pause.
All aforementioned stations were, "ChargePoint" stations.

sda

ab348 said:

nyccarguy said:

Now the bad. Over the years I have watched the NY Auto Show grow and balloon to the point where it was close to unmanageable to see the whole thing. It was back to being 1 level in the Javitz Center. There were so many manufacturers missing:

BMW
Mini
Mercedes-Benz
Audi
Honda
Acura
Mazda

Since most of them have no inventory to sell, I can understand them not being there.</blockquot

Good point. I would think manufacturers would want to have a good showing at the Car Show. How are consumers able to determine if they want to buy their product if they can't access them at the local dealer? Online viewing, articles, test reviews, etc. to me only go so far. I want hands on before I buy.

henryn

sda said:

ab348 said:

nyccarguy said:

Now the bad. Over the years I have watched the NY Auto Show grow and balloon to the point where it was close to unmanageable to see the whole thing. It was back to being 1 level in the Javitz Center. There were so many manufacturers missing:

BMW
Mini
Mercedes-Benz
Audi
Honda
Acura
Mazda

Since most of them have no inventory to sell, I can understand them not being there.

Good point. I would think manufacturers would want to have a good showing at the Car Show. How are consumers able to determine if they want to buy their product if they can't access them at the local dealer? Online viewing, articles, test reviews, etc. to me only go so far. I want hands on before I buy.

Good point. I came this close to ordering a new Maverick last year, but just couldn't do it before actually having a hands on experience.

Of course now you can't even order one. I just read an article this morning that some prices are not going to return to pre-pandemic levels, and they specifically mentioned used car prices. Which seems counter intuitive to me, as used car prices are about 99.9% tied to the price and availability of new cars. If new car prices and availability return to pre-pandemic levels, then used car prices will almost certainly do the same.