Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous (Archived)

stever

Here's the morning laugher for this crowd:

Are We Losing Our Love for Cars? Study Raises Questions

Mr_Shiftright

It's a conspiracy, Steve. Just like the airlines have deliberately made air travel so miserable, that you'll pay extra for any relief in seating or baggage, so too the automakers are conspiring with law enforcement, highway commissions and traffic experts to make driving so miserable that you'll want to buy any form of comfort or entertainment or navigational guidance necessary to make life bearable inside the car.

qbrozen

Mr_Shiftright said:

It takes a Mighty Man to defeat the dreaded monster--"The Porsche Options List". Many have tried, few succeed in this quest. Good luck. Many brilliant German minds have stayed up long hours to devise this labyrinth.

Ha! yes, well, at least in this case, they aren't charging extra for the PDK, so I guess that's some consolation. I give them some credit for making a number of the options somewhat reasonable... or at least reasonable enough. No, of course you don't need $3600 wheels or $2500 for painted air vent slats, but $1300 for 14-way seats that also adds memory functions for your mirrors, stereo, steering wheel, etc? $500 for heated seats? $250 for heated steering wheel? Hell yeah, gimme some of that. I would even find the $660 for ventilated seats a bit excessive, but I'm imagining they'd be pretty sweet at the track where you don't want to run your AC.

qbrozen

stever said:

Here's the morning laugher for this crowd:

Are We Losing Our Love for Cars? Study Raises Questions

Am I wrong or hasn't the economy been on a big downswing, too, which keeps recreational driving down and keeps all those extra unemployed people home (or worse, without cars)?

stever

heh, this post is the real proof that we've lost our love for cars.

"The fact that the Toyota Camry is the number 1 car in America proves we have long lost our love for driving/cars."

Mr_Shiftright

Well maybe the economy of the great unwashed masses is still tanking, but judging from the action in the classic/exotic cars, this is the BOOM BOOM 80s all over again.

Quote from well-known West Coast dealer:

"In nearly 40 years in the collector car business, we have never seen a year like 2014. The level of activity this year has surprised even those of us who have been in the business for decades, with both the values of cars and the number of transactions at an all time high."

qbrozen said:

stever said:

Here's the morning laugher for this crowd:

Are We Losing Our Love for Cars? Study Raises Questions

Am I wrong or hasn't the economy been on a big downswing, too, which keeps recreational driving down and keeps all those extra unemployed people home (or worse, without cars)?

kyfdx

Mr_Shiftright said:

It takes a Mighty Man to defeat the dreaded monster--"The Porsche Options List". Many have tried, few succeed in this quest. Good luck. Many brilliant German minds have stayed up long hours to devise this labyrinth.

I kept building Cayman and Cayman S, then figured out I could build a BMW M235i for under $50K that is only 1/10th of a second slower 0-60 than a Cayman S... even though it weighs 500 lbs more (I know..the last part isn't a good thing).

laurasdada

Anybody have any other suggestions for $60k that I might be overlooking? BMW/Benz/Audi just aren't really on my radar. Too many audis where I work, and I can't shake my mindset that they are quite unreliable. My 135i experience really soured me on BMW. And Benz... well, its not completely out of the running. I keep thinking maybe I should check out a GLA45, but, for what I've read, it doesn't compare to the Macan in any department other than performance. I dunno... now that I've got Porsche on my brain, everything else seems ... meh. But maybe that will change once I sit in one.

Q: As it's free, and fun, to look, I'll throw in my .02 to stop by your local Jag dealer. Check the XF, not the most modern in terms of the infotainment, but an entertaining ride none the less! And, from what I've seen, outside of LA and Florida, a unique ride.

laurasdada

breld said:

You can add another year-end punch for us - nothing as thrilling as a new Mustang or a potential Porsche punch, but we brought home our new minivan replacement this afternoon.

Congrats, breld!

Forgive me if I'm behind (I am catching up on posts), but perhaps we should have a contest on how many "punches" breld will have in 2015! Put me down for 2...

nyccarguy

My guess for 2015 punches is 30. @breld continues to impress. I think he had 5 punches last year too. I didn't think he'd have more than 2 this year. I don't plan on any 2015 punches (but none of us plan unless we have an expiring lease).

nyccarguy

@laurasdada‌

He's looked at Jaguar. If he goes that route, he wants an "R."

Mr_Shiftright

Oh I don't know. Motor Trend ran a new Chevy Z28 against a Porsche GT3 and while the porky Chevrolet was more of a handful to drive around the track, and was handily beaten 0-60 and in the 1/4 mile, the lap times at Willow were only a handful of seconds apart. And the Z was thought to be more "fun" for the driver who likes total involvement. You could buy a new pickup truck, trailer and a nice vacation for the difference in price between the two cars.

kyfdx said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

It takes a Mighty Man to defeat the dreaded monster--"The Porsche Options List". Many have tried, few succeed in this quest. Good luck. Many brilliant German minds have stayed up long hours to devise this labyrinth.

I kept building Cayman and Cayman S, then figured out I could build a BMW M235i for under $50K that is only 1/10th of a second slower 0-60 than a Cayman S... even though it weighs 500 lbs more (I know..the last part isn't a good thing).

stickguy

Camry means nothing. In the 60s, impala and chevelle were the big sellers. Mostly boring strippo 4 doors and lots of base engine.

qbrozen

kyfdx said:

I kept building Cayman and Cayman S, then figured out I could build a BMW M235i for under $50K that is only 1/10th of a second slower 0-60 than a Cayman S... even though it weighs 500 lbs more (I know..the last part isn't a good thing).

Well, sure, and you could get a used Vette and spank them both. There is something more than simple numbers involved in a car purchase. A Cayman S is special. IMHO, a BMW ain't.

Case in point... I just built a CTS Vsport on true car that I could apparently purchase for $15k less than the Macan S I keep talking about. It is faster. It has a bigger back seat. But it still ain't a Porsche (nor does it have AWD or a hatchback).

qbrozen

laurasdada said:

Q: As it's free, and fun, to look, I'll throw in my .02 to stop by your local Jag dealer. Check the XF, not the most modern in terms of the infotainment, but an entertaining ride none the less! And, from what I've seen, outside of LA and Florida, a unique ride.

Thanks. As nyc said, I have been looking at Jags. Thing is, to get the performance, I gotta step up to at least a Supercharged version of the 2015, which puts me up at the $70k figure. That's out of my range.

As for used, I have not found one that makes sense. The closest was the 2010 XF-R I posted. Miles were nice and low, but $38k for a 5-year-old car is a tough nut to swallow.

Sandman6472

Dropping off the Golf again in the morning for them to solve the tire vibration issue once and for all...they are giving me a loaner so I can do some much need errands. Had to drive a Sportage at work and don't miss that size vehicle one bit but didn't think I would to be honest. All is good and don't think we're going to be buying any time soon and honestly, there's nothing out there I'd rather have right now, nothing!!! I do like the 1 Series but they only come as coupes so a no go there. Subaru? Not sure if I'm going to even like the new Imprezza sedan. Got what I really wanted and am so happy!

Filled the tank but stopped at the second click and the range said 400 miles to empty, so I went up in miles and down in tank size...got what I wanted it seems. Love the smaller size and better mileage and suspect that'll go up once it hits 5k on the clock...with just under 650, I am pleased with the mileage so far. Also getting compliments on the color combo, blue over beige, and many don't realize that the wheels are from the diesel Golf TDI. They seem to make mine look so much better in my eyes...the ones that came with it had too much black and I prefer the brighter TDI wheels. Luckily they were the same size, 17", and were an easy swap. Just know that next time, I want to go up to a 50 or 55 series sized tire and hope this will be doable...I know that the 1st two numbers have to be changed with one going down and one going up??? Just not sure. Think they are 225/45/17 right now and the aspect ratio has to change to make them the same height so as not to hit the inner tire wheels. So maybe a 205/55/17 will fit and keep the speedometer the same. Will have to research this as I want a taller sidewall and a smoother ride, eventually.

The Sandman

laurasdada

Thanks. As nyc said, I have been looking at Jags. Thing is, to get the performance, I gotta step up to at least a Supercharged version of the 2015, which puts me up at the $70k figure. That's out of my range.


Sorry, my swiss-cheese of a memory didn't retain that info! As I've noted, I got what seemed to be quite a discount on the XF-Vanilla, perhaps similar bargains abound on the "R." Ok, maybe a stretch, in my zipper, $6500 cash back on the (2014) XF-R, which would drop the "invoice" price to ~$70k. So, likely pricing still in the 60s+. Carry on!

graphicguy

Q....LD...you may not buy one, but do yourself a favor and go test drive a CTS-V. Worth the trip to the dealer and the eventual follow up phone calls from the sales guys.

laurasdada

Hmmm, it's been a year since I've bought a new car. I'm surprised y'all let me post here!

NE Auto Show in three weeks, I'll start there with checking out the new iron, er, aluminum, er, carbon fiber... Including the Caddy's, which (shock to the system, like you GG), are on the radar-worthy! At last year's show, was impressed from a static standpoint, liked the interiors (except for the finger print magnet of the piano black center stack). Thought the XTS interior was quite nice, the exterior is a bit odd to me, though. ATS and CTS are handsome devils, too, and from the auto mags and the converts here, yes worth a look/drive. Maybe they'll have the "test drive" gift card giveaways at the show.

qbrozen

well... its not a CTS-V, actually, but a CTS Vsport.

With the $2k holiday bonus from Jag, the XF supercharged comes to $66k. Not crazy bad. However, I've gone through the website of every Jag dealer within 100 miles and nobody has any.

I might look at these others at this point. Porsche sales guy just emailed back. They are currently $3500 short on the mustang but "bring it by for a firmer evaluation." So now I let my knowledge out of the bag and wrote back listing comparables at Manheim that average over $23k and unless they made a mistake and priced it as a 2011 instead of a 2013, or unless he feels we can bump it up thousands of dollars by seeing it in person, we must part ways.

breld

qbrozen said:

well... its not a CTS-V, actually, but a CTS Vsport.

With the $2k holiday bonus from Jag, the XF supercharged comes to $66k. Not crazy bad. However, I've gone through the website of every Jag dealer within 100 miles and nobody has any.

I might at this point. Porsche sales guy just emailed back. They are currently $3500 short on the mustang but "bring it by for a firmer evaluation." So now I let my knowledge out of the bag and wrote back listing comparables at Manheim that average over $23k and unless they made a mistake and priced it as a 2011 instead of a 2013, or unless he feels we can bump it up thousands of dollars by seeing it in person, we must part ways.

I love that - no reason to let the knowledge out unless you need to. But when you need to, it is pretty satisfying. It's not as sexy, but it's like sharing my "leasing worksheet" with the Kia dealer to cut to the chase.

breld

Sandy - others can weigh in on this, but regarding your tire size, if you change the "series" of the tire, you'll simply change the width, but maintain the overall diameter. So, it may be something like a 205/55/17 - narrower tire, but still the same profile, if that makes sense.

225/45/17 is a pretty standard size, and already more forgiving than what's on the GTI. I'd just stick with that.

breld

laurasdada said:

breld said:

You can add another year-end punch for us - nothing as thrilling as a new Mustang or a potential Porsche punch, but we brought home our new minivan replacement this afternoon.

Congrats, breld!

Forgive me if I'm behind (I am catching up on posts), but perhaps we should have a contest on how many "punches" breld will have in 2015! Put me down for 2...

Thanks! I am quite enjoying the Sedona, truth be told. I immediately purchased some snow tires for it (being a different size than the Ody) and had them installed yesterday in time (or during) our Denver area snowstorm. Performed quite well.

qbrozen

Oh, its like catching deer in the headlights, ain't it? Most salespeople are just completely befuddled when they suddenly realize they can no longer pretend like they know what they are doing.

And please don't take that as a bash on salespeople. I've run across a very very select few who are humble enough to learn from it.

breld

nyccarguy said:

My guess for 2015 punches is 30. @breld continues to impress. I think he had 5 punches last year too. I didn't think he'd have more than 2 this year. I don't plan on any 2015 punches (but none of us plan unless we have an expiring lease).

Thanks for the mention - we certainly didn't plan on 5 for this year either! My wife and I each doubled up with some poor choices - me with the Passat and her with the Audi TT. Not bad cars, but just didn't meet our needs and wants for one reason or another. So, being the way we are, we didn't "stick it out" and replaced those pretty quick. So, there's 4 purchases right there. And then the late year minivan.

I wouldn't anticipate much for next year either - I could see 1 for myself if I decide to switch out the 5, since I now have my luxury Kia ride. And, you never know, maybe one more...just cause.

breld

Well Q, sounds like you have your heart, and gut, set on a Macan.

From the little I know, I would anticipate the resale on those to hold strong. They seem to be in great demand now - it's a smart looking Porsche with some utility that is in the realm of affordability for many.

So like I said before, it's obviously quite a cost upfront, but at the end of the day, it will probably turn out to be a very reasonable cost of ownership.

Not necessarily trying to be an enabler or anything.

qbrozen

I have to admit this is a heck of a deal. I mean, its the weak sauce version, but that's a lot of car for $32k, and it has more than 3 years of warranty on it.

Breld - yes, its true. I definitely keep justifying it one way or another. But I gotta at least be fair to myself. I mean... ok, if they want to offer $3500 under what I would accept on the Stang, then give me a substantial discount on the Macan. They certainly have the room in it to do so, but will they? Likely not. Can I go to a different Porsche dealer? Sure. I could try.

qbrozen

hmmm... just found out this 2010 XFR has 2 years of warranty on it. Does that make it sound better?? Those red seats really don't look attractive in the pics. Wonder if it looks better in person, like my 135i did. And somebody really jumbled up their custom order with the oak/red/black combo. Money doesn't equal taste, as they say.

corvette

nyccarguy said:

My guess for 2015 punches is 30. @breld continues to impress. I think he had 5 punches last year too.

Put you down for 30 (same guess as ab348). You are correct, breld bought five cars in 2013 last year as well.

corvette

sandman_6472 said:

So maybe a 205/55/17 will fit and keep the speedometer the same.

Personally, I like the gas Golf SE wheels, but then again, I'm biased... GLIs come with the black/aluminum wheels. I would be cautious about going to a narrower tire. The sidewall probably won't stick out as far, which will make the wheel more prone to curb damage.

Honestly, even the 225/40/18 wheels/tires and sport suspension on the GLI aren't that punishing... Maybe I'll feel differently when I'm older and my back is even worse than it is now!

stickguy

Q, I like that Jag. even if it is the "weak kneed" engine, I honestly can't figure out how you can use more power than that puppy has without losing your license on 195!

and it even is justifiable financially. Heck, for only 10K more than the Mustang, darned right reasonable! Certainly not the major splurge that a Mecan would be.

but, if you really want a hatchback SUV, that isn't one. I assume the Jag is AWD though?

stickguy

Sandy, you can go to a skinnier, higher profile tire and keep the same (roughly) overall diameter. Just have to be careful that the tire is not too narrow for the wheel. A tire store can tell you.

I don't like low profile myself, but that is because of our bombed out roads. if I lived where the pavement was smooth like you do, 45s would be fine. No lower though, that is my limit!

225/45-17 is equivalent to 205/50. only .4% difference per the calculator, so pretty much the same. Just kind of skinny. you might not like that tradeoff.

http://miata.net/garage/tirecalc.html

qbrozen

nope. The AWD Jag only comes with a V

Tell ya what, though, I have located a new 2014 CTS Vsport in north Jersey. Truecar claims $48k, although that seems optimistic. But, who knows? Maybe I could make the trek tomorrow and see what happens. If I like it, and they need to dump it on the last day of the year...

Downside is that its still a Caddy, though. 2014s with a few miles on them are already under $40k at auction. So even the deep discount can't rescue you from depreciation on that thing. The Jags, on the other hand, have suffered a good deal of depreciation already. Tough call.

stickguy

RWD, even better. just drive the Fit on the occasional snow day. Not like the Mustang is any good in the snow. or get snow tires, and it will be fine for year round duty.

I am liking that Jag more and more. I even know where it is!

graphicguy

qbrozen said:

nope. The AWD Jag only comes with a V

Tell ya what, though, I have located a new 2014 CTS Vsport in north Jersey. Truecar claims $48k, although that seems optimistic. But, who knows? Maybe I could makeid the trek tomorrow and see what happens. If I like it, and they need to dump it on the last day of the year...

Downside is that its still a Caddy, though. 2014s with a few miles on them are already under $40k at auction. So even the deep discount can't rescue you from depreciation on that thing. The Jags, on the other hand, have suffered a good deal of depreciation already. Tough call.

I know I'm going to get hurt on the sales/trade side on mine. Bought it right, though! So, it knd of all comes out in the wash.

$48K? For a VSport? I'd run to the dealer at that price.

stickguy

I would rather have the jag. Probably won't depreciate as much over the next 2 years, and cheaper to get into it.

qbrozen

You are talking about the $32k 2012 one, right?

I'm trying to find places at least somewhat close together to try out the Caddy and Jag. So there is a caddy dealer in Mt Laurel with the V sport and Cherry Hill Classics has a CPO 2011 Jag. The 2012 had a facelift, so that would be preferable to me, but they should drive the same. So as long as the wife doesn't object, that may be my route tomorrow.

There also happens to be a Porsche dealer in Cherry Hill.

GG - $48k is what true car says, and that's with the special paint and all-weather mats.

steine13

laurasdada said:

Too many audis where I work, and I can't shake my mindset that they are quite unreliable.

The real problem is that a lot of Audis have that same mindset.

I'm getting withdrawal symptoms here... the General just upped my GM Card rebate by $2,000... so that means I have a cool $3,200 of their money burning a hole in my pocket from here until early March, when that particular promotion ends.
Must... resist...

nyccarguy

steine13 said:

laurasdada said:

Too many audis where I work, and I can't shake my mindset that they are quite unreliable.

The real problem is that a lot of Audis have that same mindset.

I'm getting withdrawal symptoms here... the General just upped my GM Card rebate by $2,000... so that means I have a cool $3,200 of their money burning a hole in my pocket from here until early March, when that particular promotion ends.
Must... resist...

If you could find a 20% off car and then get your $3,200 in rebates you'd have yourself a deal!

nyccarguy

@steine13‌

How do you like your Outback 6MT?

qbrozen

At Caddy dealer after visiting Jag dealer. V sport is one sweet ride. A bit on the firm side but it does have summer rubber in 30-degree weather. Gorgeous metallic red. Backseat has more legroom than the XF. Certainly faster. Jag is smoother. Caddy wins on amenities, too.

rayainsw

sooooo - made an offer?

Sandman6472

Drove the A3 yesterday and really like it but it is very very similar to my Golf though think the Golf is a bit lighter. They gave me a Jetta loaner and though nice, a bit big and so glad I went down in size. The only thing I like better is the audio system as I'm not crazy about the Fender system I have right now and after talking with my audio guy yesterday, think I'm going to have to live with it since he mentioned needing 2 amps plus a computer thing to manage the sound, a processor of some kind. Came to about $1200.00 give or take which is a nice chunk of change right now. Figured just one amp would do but he said there's like 10 speakers in the vehicle. So now, I will think long and hard here about what to do.
Thanks for the advice on the tires and totally agree, narrower is not the way to go so will just live with what the engineers thought was the optimal size. Just hope they can balance the wheels properly today because I don't want them to wear prematurely and I told the service writer the same thing. They just called so off I go!!!

The Sandman

Sandman6472

From what the receipt the cashier gave me, seems they force balanced the wheels and then torqued them to specs. Just to be sure they actually did something, I took off the black valve caps on the wheels and now they put on light gray ones in their place. Didn't have any chaulk or a correction tape to mark the tires so figured this was the next best thing to be sure they even touched the wheels. Apparently they road tested it because they used some petrol, I filled up yesterday morning and now there's like a 1/4 gone and I didn't drive more than 40 miles since fill up. The service writer did take it on the nearby expressway to see what I was talking about. He said he felt nothing but I felt vibration in my butt as I was in the passengers seat and wasn't going to bother with the wheels...said he'd have them check the seat bolts which I thought was ridiculous. The tires are the originals so they didn't just replace them with a different brand. Sometimes there can be a bad batch of tires I'm sure but we'll see Friday once I get back on that same expressway going down to work. Am being optimistic here as I do not want to go back again.
Since the gas gauge moved down an 1/8, I stopped and put a gallon in since I came right home and then right back to them...maybe drove 9 miles total.

The Sandman

qbrozen

Yes, we hammered out a deal. It was more of a challenge than I hoped. Havent signed anything just yet. Car stickers at $61,385 and I am paying $49,000.

laurasdada

I gotta admit, the CTS was not on my radar when I was shopping. I so disliked the el cheapo interior and (to me) overbaked exterior of the original CTS, I guess first impressions linger with me. Gen 2 CTS was a big step forward, though in all respects.

Like GG on the CTS, I got ~$15k off the msrp of the XF, so hopefully a bit of depreciation was built in my purchase price. But, too be honest, I've never really considered resale. I buy the car I want, hopefully at the deal I want.

Regarding Caddy pricing, OK, they want to price their cars in the same 'hood as their perceived competition. But, isn't it simply more expensive to build (well, those that are built overseas vs. the foreign owned domestic plants) an Audi, BMW, MB, Jag etc? Cost of labor, taxes, tariffs...hence that is part of the higher cost of admission? I've postulated before, Caddy should take a note from Lexus: high quality, competitive, desirable cars a bit underpriced from the competition. (Hopefully) Build market share and walk the price up. Am looking forward to future Caddy's though, halo sedan. Maybe a true sports/GT?

steine13

nyccarguy said:

@steine13‌

How do you like your Outback 6MT?

After 9 months and 4,800 miles, I like it just fine. I'm amazed how primitive the car is in some ways, though some of it appeals to me. It just goes to show that there are car people, and then there are Subaru people.

The engine, when revved, gets quite loud. It's nothing like an inline four from Honda or Toyota. The stick shift is "OK," quite notchy. Clutch is good.

The stupid car has tire pressure monitors... but the only readout is a warning light on the dash. That is ridiculous. 90% of the cost, and the same benefit as the old RPM-based systems.

No retained power for anything. Engine off = windows off, radio off, ...

The push-button parking brake is one of the worst ideas, ever. If it ever fails, one can release the brake manually by inserting a loooong contraption into somehwhere under the middle of the car, and turning the handle "approx. 250 times but no more than 300 times." I'm not making this up. Give me an old fashioned hand brake.

Things I do like: Meaty tires with lots of sidewall. Lots of ground clearance but not an SUV. AWD = magic in the snow. Love the direct connection from engine to wheels given by the manual. The car has a lot of room, but it's a mangeable size. One could stretch out and grab some sleep in the cargo area; it's nearly flat. Wagons are where it's at. Bun warmers are great, too... it was 15 degrees this morning.

Also, the Outback has good enthusiast support, so buying and installing a proper 2" receiver hitch was easy. I would have tackled that on my own.

I'd buy it again. Except I can't; the manual is dead. I expect if and when I tire of it, it'll be a painless sale via ebay. Not much demand for the 6MT, but even less supply. Meanwhile, I plan to enjoy it.

It's a good learner car for my 5'0" 15-year-old daughter. With the seat cranked up & forward, she has a good view, which is half the battle. And the manual keeps her engaged. We'll see how it goes when she turns 16 this June.

As we say in the old country "Einen guten Rutsch ins Neue Jahr" [Slide well into the New Year].
Cheers -Mathias

ab348

qbrozen said:

At Caddy dealer after visiting Jag dealer. V sport is one sweet ride. A bit on the firm side but it does have summer rubber in 30-degree weather. Gorgeous metallic red. Backseat has more legroom than the XF. Certainly faster. Jag is smoother. Caddy wins on amenities, too.

Obsession Red is the color of my ATS and it is a gorgeous shade. It is stunning in the sun.

Waiting for the news...

corvette

qb, congrats! Will this count as a 2014 punch?

graphicguy

qbrozen said:

Yes, we hammered out a deal. It was more of a challenge than I hoped. Havent signed anything just yet. Car stickers at $61,385 and I am paying $49,000.

Yowza! Great job on a sweeeeet car! Beautiful color.

The V Sports come pretty well all loaded up.

Congratz!