Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

fintail

It was a scam...I've never seen a decent roadworthy C280 advertised so cheaply. The price is also odd, kind of a random number.

CL is full of such fun lately. In Seattle some dopes will post "beware" style listings to alert people that the guy selling a 1995 Supra twim turbo for $2999 isn't legit. I think people who fall for this stuff somewhat deserve to be had.

Mr_Shiftright

craigslist is filled with these scams...it's a common occurrence. The price is ridiculous.

xwesx

I appologize for the exteriors appearance, we have been getting non stop rain lately.

1995 525i: Er, well, I am fairly certain the rain is not to blame for THAT mess....

oregonboy

Ok guys, my picks:

pretty 3-series wagon

540 6-spd

salvage titled, M-series, cop magnet

Focus SVT (scam?)

james

fintail

Here's a project

Hmmm

fintail

SVT is probably real, but salvage title I am sure.

benjaminh

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1960-Mercedes-Benz-300d-Adenauer_W0QQitemZ1100254- 97505QQihZ001QQcategoryZ6330QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

It's probably quite slow, and it has some rust, but I think it looks classy. I've never seen this particular style before.

british_rover

Hmhhh I like the 540 but that is waaaayayyyyayayay too much money.

Mr_Shiftright

Oh, the car they call the "Adenauer". Rust buckets, right you are, and a real money pit with zero upside. Huge car, wheezy engine, 0-60 in maybe 18 seconds. These cars always bring out the bottom-feeders on eBay. This is a car that will kill financially and you don't even get a thrill for it.

fintail

Old timers keep slippin down

That Adenauer looks better than most, but indeed, a labor of love for MB fanatics only - no other upside.

fintail

Is this the same one I found that Andre loved a couple weeks back, or a different one? I want to say the other was a 73 or 74

Here's a nice roadster

lilengineerboy

SVT Foci aren't so expensive in general. I wonder what the thing wholesales for. They were in the very low teens and reports of less than that when they were new and had too many sitting on the ground. There is a 5 door version that is on my list and something inexpensive and not old folks home boring.
That 540 looks great, they are relatively rare with the 6 speed. I think that 5 series era has a very picky cooling system that is slightly maintenance intensive.
Wrecked M3-you can get a clean title '95 for less than that. It has late model M3 replica wheels which don't have a steller reputation (although if they are the real OEM ones thats cool). He also has keywords like drift and supra in his ad. Thats scarry. That model had OBD1 instead of OBD2 which means you can do more mods whilefooling the computer although the motor is slightly smaller (I think 3.0l for '65 vs 3.2l for '96+)

andre1969

Yeah, I think that is the same Toronado that had me drooling the other week.

benjaminh

Too big and too old even for Andre. I wonder what the 0-60 time is on this one--probably quite a bit slower than that MB.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/RARE-41-CADILLAC-LIMO-GORGEOUS-LIMOUSINE_W0QQitem- Z300021193539QQihZ020QQcategoryZ6152QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

(Still haven't figured out the short links. Sorry. Perhaps not using the right browser or OS.)

PS Hey Andre, I remember a year or so ago you were lusting after a new Chrysler 300. There are good prices on them now, and they've probably gotten most of the bugs out. But in the meantime have you lost interest?

andre1969

Wow, that '41 Cadillac limo sure is beautiful. Yeah, probably too big and old for me though! With cars like that, I love to look at them and admire them, and see them at shows and stuff, but I don't think I'd ever want to own one.

As for the Chrysler 300, I still kinda like them, but I actually like the Charger better. It would be nice to have one, but I paid off my Intrepid in November 2004, and I like not having a car payment. I'm sure the Intrepid will die eventually, although right now, with about 122,000 miles it's still running fine. My plan now is to just keep it running and try to put off buying a newer car as long as possible. Plus, I had a 4-car garage built last year, and that kinda drained my finances a bit.

lemmer

That Chevette convertible - not good, just not good.

qbrozen

wait, so you guys are saying KBB is actually BELOW real value? Now THAT would be odd.

I didn't think anything of the odd number of his asking price because KBB gave me a trade-in number of exactly $10 more than his asking price. If I wanted something gone quickly, that's what I would do. "hey, its below KBB!! How can you go wrong?!" Kinda like saying something is less than $40 when its $39.99, ya know?

Of course I know of the craigslist scams. Heck, I've posted quite a few here. But that's the first time I ever saw one that wasn't a late model car (or desirable collectible) listed for like half of retail. If it really was a scam, they must be getting smarter.

british_rover

KBB is strange sometimes it is ererily accurate and sometimes it is beyond a joke in both directions. You are right in that typically if you are buying a car for less then KBB trade in value that is probably an ok measure of its value. Not always the case though.

lemmer

How often to people start with an asking price that is rock bottom trade-in? They could just run it over to Carmax and have a check in 30 minutes if they wanted to do that.

Maybe if the ad said absolutely firm rock bottom price for quick sale or some such.

Mr_Shiftright

Case in point...take a 96 BMW 3 series, 328i sedan. KBB puts WHOLESALE at $7,500 (approx) and yet you'd be lucky to get $4,000 for it at a bona fide dealer auction. Edmunds puts trade in at $5,100 and even that's iffy as an auction price. Actual value of the car full retail is about $7,400.

As for the '97 Benz C280, it is priced at one-half actual "real world" retail. That's very odd to me. Why does someone sell his car for 1/2 price when he could easily get double?

Either something's wrong with the car, or something's wrong with the ad seems to me.

But maybe it's not a "scam" in the strict sense---I agree it seems small potatoes for a real scam.

qbrozen

I'm not sure I've ever seen KBB come in BELOW value, that's all I'm saying. I know its often OVER value.

How often to people start with an asking price that is rock bottom trade-in?

Well, see above. KBB is not necessarily rock-bottom trade-in. MOST of the time, KBB is generous, so you can bet that real-world trade-in is quite a bit lower. I've had many vehicles that I would have been quite happy to get KBB trade-in value from a private buyer rather than take the dealer's offer of below KBB. So I would have just figured this was one of those times for this seller.

Mr_Shiftright

I did a quick search on Autotrader...got 111 C280s, average asking price was $8,800.

So the car is either junk, the seller is a fool, or there's a scam....that's the only 3 possibilities I can think of.

KBB/EDMUNDS et al.: I think ultimately the REALLY shrewd professional buyer of cars always always checks the "market", not the price guides. The price guides put you in the right range within $5,000 or so. It's meant to be a very large landing zone.

I think if you relied 100% say on Edmunds, you'd lose a lot of deals by offering too little money...if you relied totally on Kelley, you'd win every car you tried to buy, but you'd overpay on most deals....but if you did a numbers crunch on Autotrader, + Kbb +Edmunds, you'd have a good set of tools to make an accurate buy (or profit if that's your goal).

In the case of the C280, one has to ask "why is the seller walking away from $4,000?"

qbrozen

Anybody know the REAL and FAIR value of the car?

This has me quite curious now.

Mr_Shiftright

If it were CLEAN, and NO PROBLEMS...probably $7,800---$8,000 is very close to fair market for a 96K car. Would I pay that for it? No...I'd hit it at about $6,500. But "fair market" is what I'd appraise it at, for the owner, for insurance.

qbrozen

wow. So trade-in is like $6k? (fair market to me is $1500-$2k over trade-in)

that's definitely not worth it.

Mr_Shiftright

Not sure what you mean by "trade-in". If you mean will a dealer pay KBB or Edmunds "trade-in" price for a C280? Hmmmm....maybe a funky used car dealer would but I don't think the pros would, no. KBB says trade-in on an "excellent car" at $5,000. You *might* see that at auction, because all kinds of dealers go there. But from a Benz dealer? I rather doubt it. More like....$4K--$4,500?

So, I thought $6,500 would be a good retail deal. At $7,500, you are paying high retail just like everybody else....no deal but no rip-off. At $8,000 and over, the car would have to be exceptional in mileage and condition, and the dealer selling at $8995 is making a tidy profit I'd bet.

So one still wonders why a private seller would put a price that is lower than what a dealer would pay him.

I bet the car isn't what he says it is....marked up, dented, smells bad, engine light on, bald tires, dead cat in trunk.....SOMETHING.....

lemmer

According to a dealer auction site (a friend lets me use his password), the average auction price last week was $5,342 for cars with an average mileage of 88,000.

It has been my experience that if a dealer isn't going to resell it easily on his own lot, he is going to offer you auction value less transport costs to auction less a cushion to make sure he doesn't lose money on the deal.

Mr_Shiftright

That sounds about right, if it's an auction open to all kinds of dealers. The little guys who rent tiny lots in marginal neighborhoods tend to pay more and bump the average up a bit. They make it up on financing, since they often run their own "mouse houses" for financing.

qbrozen

interesting. Ok. So the story is that KBB is way below reality. That's a first in my experience. I'll mark down the day.

andre1969

my buddy with the two '78 Mark V Diamond Jubilees found this beast locally, and is salivating over it. He's really thinking about checking it out and buying it if it checks out. But then he this one out in Colorado, and is torn between the two.

Believe it or not, my buddy's daily driver is a 2001.5 Passat with a stick shift and these aftermarket boy-racer rims that he bought a year or so ago. The loveboats he's been collecting are almost the polar opposite!

He keeps talking about selling the rattier of his two Mark V's, and I hate to say it, but the thing entices me! If he'd let it go for $2500-3500 I might be tempted. And he has talked about that. If that day comes though, someone please talk me out of it! (not that it's an awful car or anything, but I need it like I need a hole in the head)

lemmer

In my experience, KBB is usually in the ballpark (sometimes low) on trade-in, close to correct on private party, and ridiculously silly high on retail.

Edmunds is usually high on trade-in, close to correct on private part, and in the ballpark on retail.

On any given day, either of these guides might be wildly over or under on any of the three values.

That is why I look at eBay completed sales, autotrader asking prices, carmax prices, auction data, price guides, asking you guys, etc. and assemble and discount/add and mentally do a rough weighted average of the numbers before I firm up a number in my head (if I am really interested in a car).

michaellno

That is why I look at eBay completed sales, autotrader asking prices, carmax prices, auction data, price guides, asking you guys, etc. and assemble and discount/add and mentally do a rough weighted average of the numbers before I firm up a number in my head (if I am really interested in a car).

So, I should try to do the same when attempting to figure out an asking price for my FIL's '92 or '93 Subaru wagon when we go to sell it in the next few weeks?

fintail

Here's a local car for your friend

This would be an interesting pair with your 76 Pontiac

Sorry, can't talk you out of it

andre1969

but while I don't like that cinnamon-ish color on that first Lincoln, I think it would look good on a same-era Cadillac!

I do like that '77 Cartier though. Normally it seems the light blue and light green Mark V's are the ones that turn me on the most, but I like that burgundy color, too.

How weak was the 400 in 1977? I think it was down to 166 hp in 1978 and 159 hp for 1979, but in '77 I think it had a bit more guts. Probably still a bit overmatched for a car of this weight, though.

lemmer

Nope, people rarely put too low of a number on a car they are selling, and if you are too high you will find that out pretty quickly.

qbrozen

it depends heavily on where you live, too.

here in the northeast, most dealers live and die by Galves, which is, according to Terry, typically low. So, where I am, KBB trade-in is typically high. I will say they've gotten MUCH better over the last year or so. Last time I compared the 2, KBB was remarkably close to Galves (but still maybe 5-10% high in many cases).

british_rover

Yeah Galves is very low when compared to the rest of the country. Go a couple of stats farther south and it does not apply at all.

Mr_Shiftright

Well of course Dealers will use Galves when they are buying and KBB when they are selling. Wouldn't you?

british_rover

We sort of do. We will post what the suggested KBB retail of the car is next to the price we are selling it for. Just about everybody does that though. The problem is sometimes on lower mile high end vehicles KBB doesn't value the car high enough. For what we paid for the car if we sold it at KBB retail we would lose money.

It happens from time to time when the market is tight on low production luxury vehicles.

kapbot

I'm not sure why, but in an alternate universe, under ideal conditions, I would love to own the 1977 Lincoln Mark V Cartier Series. I am certain that every facet of ownership, driving and upkeep would suck the very soul from my life. However, that would have to be the ultimate vacation cruiser for someone who could afford to fill the gas tank.

andre1969

is another one of these, but the color really caught my eye. So did the typos in the name (guess it could've been worse, at least they didn't call it a LeMons!) and the engine size (never heard of a 335). Too bad they don't have more pics of it. I'd love to see the white interior.

gsemike

How's that car look that good in Syracuse. Either it hasn't spent it's whole life up there or it's never seen a winter road.

lemmer

I posted this 380SL a month or two ago. I think they were asking $11,900 then. Is this a good price yet?

qbrozen

Well, the Benz crowd would know better than me, but, personally, I'm not willing to pay $8k for a used car that needs a paintjob and seats.

stickguy

also, based on the repair list, it pretty much sat for 3 years (2001-2004), doing only about 1,000 miles. Actually, it looks like about $3-4 per mile in those years, just for repairs!

Mr_Shiftright

I didn't see where it needed paint and seats?

But if it's SHARP AND CLEAN ALL OVER, it might be worth $8,500 maximum.

If it does indeed need seat work and has iffy paint, then $5,500 is all the money.

These old V8 SLs are not nearly as attractive to own and drive as they might look. They are gas hogs and are clumsy...sort of a well-made '55 T-Bird with sound-proofing.

As one very cruel journalist put it: "The kind of car a congressman buys for his las Vegas call girl mistress".

I wouldn't go THAT far myself. If you could find a nice clean one for $5,000 (they are so hard to sell, so sometimes you can score one) and you use it judiciously so not as to run up huge gas bills (think 12 mpg) or repair bills (think "oh my god, how much?"), then hey, why not?

Look rich for cheap!

ghulet

...and the price isn't bad (and gas has even gone down some):

http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/car/201725780.html

fintail

Just spend a few more grand and get a 560SL, do it right.

fintail

So which is it

qbrozen

yeah, its one of those funky ads where you need to carefully scroll in one box to see thumbnails of the pics, which you can then click and get them to come up in the bigger box. Anyway, there are several pics of the seats and closeups of the paint to show the problems. The seats are still usable, but on their last legs. The paint is in bad shape. Lots of scratches and swirls.