Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

british_rover

Yeah but then it wouldn't be 975 now would it?

Mr_Shiftright

Quite frankly, none of them are worth more than $975, at least not the turbo-less ones. I mean, they are so slow they are downright dangerous, and so expensive to fix that the first repair buries you for life. The turbo models, if very clean and in tip-top shape, are really the only ones worth bothering with.

I'd say a super clean, 100% mechanically correct 300TD wagon would be worth $5,000 and a similar sedan maybe $3,500. More than that, and you are getting silly with your money....remember, these are OLD diesels with OLD diesel technology.

qbrozen

yeah, i wish it wasn't so far from me. That's about a 90 minute to 2 hour drive. And figure there's gotta be AT LEAST an 80% chance I'd be disappointed.

Mr_Shiftright

yeah but if it's a good one, you could flip it for a profit. Those wagons are more valuable than the sedans.

A 300D is easy to check out. First off, it has to start right away, as in INSTANTLY...if you have to grind it, you got problems right off.

Then you play with the HVAC controls.

Then you accelerate and decelerate and see if you can stagger up to 60 mph without covering the world in soot, and if you can, then listen for bad CV joints in the rear and a whining differential.

then you raise the hood and look for massive water or oil leaks.

Bingo, 15 minutes you're done. Everything else on the car is easy to fix, like vacuum locks or tie rods or burned out dash lights.

bumpy

The S12 is the unloved Silvia these days. There is practically no aftermarket for it, and the S13 was a better car all around. The 87-88 SE is the only US version worth looking for (even though the V6 makes them nose-heavy), unless you want to swap in an FJ20ET or something.

fintail

That wagon has euros I notice...if they are bosch they are worth at least a couple hundred alone. Good parts car maybe.

We had a Ciera when I was little...3.0 I believe, fake wire wheel covers, velour, AM-FM, AC...not much else...manual seats and windows etc. It was reliable but was slapped together pretty poorly, I remember the squeaks and rattles from it even today.

How low can it go?

Seems like an unusual configuration

fintail

Mercedes did have the 300E/W124, which is still a fairly modern car. 0-60 in 7 flat from a 3 litre 6 in 1986 must have been something worth looking at. It cost 40K back then though! And they easily sold them all.

lilengineerboy

Fintail,
Sign me up for a W124 500E instead. I actually liked the 124 platform a lot, I think it was definitely a premium vehicle in '86 although somewhat less so in 95 when they retired it.
If I had endless space in my virtual garage, I would be down with a 124 Turbo Diesel for a biofuel commuter.

fintail

Yeah, a 500E is a cool car, Porsche built and all. I know someone who has a very modified example...the exhaust note is pretty impressive. Certainly a modern day minor collectible.

The 124 was a great platform, such a balanced design.

Mr_Shiftright

I think you're thinkin' of the 400E doing 0-60 in 7 seconds. With 175HP in US form and 3,300 lbs of weight, the 300E as an automatic is somewhat of a porker. Maybe a Euro stickshift could push 7.7, something like that?

The funniest thing about the 500E is that it weighs 400 lbs less than the 500SL "sports" car...and the stats show a very frisky 0-60 in about 6 seconds.

I've never seen a 500E or even seen one for sale. I have no idea if anybody would pay a premium price for one or not. They made about 10,000 of them and in the USA they sold for $80,000!!! I'm guessing that about 10,000--$12,000 is all the market could bear for a nice one.

british_rover

Little history on them.

http://www.fantasycars.com/sedans/html/500e.html

Didn't really know anything about them.

fintail

7.7...that's it. My bad. I remember the numbers from an old test.

The 560 series cars were the ones pulling off around 7 or just under.

I've seen low mileage enthusiast owned 500Es in the 20s, but normally driven wear 'n tear models in the low teens.

lilengineerboy

There is one in SE Michigan I see sometimes on my way to work, and I know of 2 in the bay area that belonged to co-workers. I remember sleeping in the back bucket seat on the way back from meetings while the big wigs talked in the front seat in Japanese.
500E
500E
500E

Mr_Shiftright

Yep, look how weak the bidding is on those...none are meeting reserve. I think 20K is not realistic, personally... more like half-ish that is the "real market".

fintail

That RENN modified one looks interesting...BIN is too high though. The second one doesn't look bad either, I don't care for the wheels and mods on the third. Still, very cool cars for not a ral fortune...you'll turn the heads of MB people anyway.

lilengineerboy

I am assuming it could spank an E28 M5, but it looks like it would have trouble with an E34 M5, both of which are in a similar situation price-wise I think. While not in the same size category, the E30 M3 would be in there too. I guess it comes down to which German nitch auto you want...
I just like the flared fenders :P

fintail

Those fenders make it so the trained eye can spot one a mile away...yet the dopey kid in the pimped out Civic would have no clue.

stickguy

when there is a V8 4 speed ford in play?

OK, it is a Granada, but man, the potential... The Granada is a workable platform, since it is based on some other Ford platform (I assume), the Maverick maybe?, that at least had some suspension parts available.

That front fender looks a little iffy, but if it runs OK, and isn't rusty, I would buy it.

Good thing Fin posted it and not Broz, since if it was in Joisey, I might be dumb enough to go look at it, and when you look, bad things can happen.

But, if nothing else, I can guarantee my son would be the only one in town (heck, maybe the country) learning to drive on a V8 4 speed Granada!

kapbot

I used to own a 7? Mercury Monarch, 250 L6 auto. What a turd of a car. It was a four door, though. The Granada in question, can anyone say Q-Ship? That would be the best use of that car in my opinion.

On a side note, I have noticed lately bunches of T.V. shows & commercials lately that involve a Volvo wagon of some sort. Think "30 Year Old Virgin", lots of ads involving opening the door, and someone hits the open door, smashing the glass, and denting the heck out of the skin. At least half a dozen commercials in just the last week with the same theme.
Maybe it's just me. I am kind of an oddball anyway.

andre1969

had a '77 Granada coupe. 250 inline 6. I don't remember much about it since I was 7 when they bought it, but it replaced a '75 Dart Swinger hardtop that I liked better. The Dart used to stall out all the time, any time, any speed, you name it. Dealer never could fix it. So like hordes of other buyers, my grandparents went for the mock Mercedes look of the Granada and its upscale pretensions. Its transmission failed, almost immediately. Under warranty, thankfully. Other than that, I don't think it had any problems. However, Granddad, despite working on the railroad as a mechanic most of his life, for some reason neglected his cars. Later in its life that Granada started stalling and stuttering, most likely because it needed a tuneup. So they traded it for an '81 Granada coupe.

I dated a girl back in the early 90's who drove a '77 Granada 4-door with a 302. She let me drive it a couple times. Handling on the suckers is horribly sloppy. They tried to engineer the things to ride like bigger cars, but it ended up giving them a bouncy, queasy feeling, and handling about on par with your typical bias-ply tire 50's car.

Granadas looked bulky but they really weren't that heavy. An Aspen/Volare or Nova and its clones were heavier. So was a Dart/Valiant, and the downsized Malibu. So with a 302 acceleration wasn't bad for the time. I'm sure with a stick shift it would actually be kinda fun.

Here's one thing I never could understand though. The Granada/Monarch was based on the Maverick, which came out as a 1970 model. It rides the same wheelbase as the 4-door Maverick. Now I've heard that the Maverick and Granada/Monarch can actually be traced back to the Falcon, but is this true? The compact Falcon platform was actually discontinued after 1965. In 1966 a new Fairlane was introduced, and the Falcon, while still considered a compact, was on the same platform, just shortened. The result was a compact car with midsized shoulder room. The similarity is really obvious in station wagons, which shared the same wheelbase. Anyway, the 1970 Maverick was much smaller and narrower than any Fairlane-issued car at the time, so how much could it really have in common with it?

stickguy

Well, in those days (IMO of course) there wasn't as much to a platform as there is now. The Granada (and maverick/Falcon) were all basic RWD BOF Cars, weren't they, so outside of the basic frame, what's really the difference?

Still, there are plenty of parts to make the 302 run just fine, so that really leaves a good set of tires and some springs/shocks/bushings/roll bars to make it handle OK, and you have your Q ship. Plus, only $600!

besides, who cares if it gets a dent or 2?

andre1969

were all basic RWD BOF Cars, weren't they, so outside of the basic frame, what's really the difference?

Nah, they were unitized cars. Ford jumped into unitized construction much more wholeheartedly than GM did. I think the only body-on-frame intermediate platform Ford ever had was the 1972-1979 platform that comprised the Torino, Montego, Cougar, LTD-II, and later T-birds.

The compacts and intermediates through 1971 were unitized, however, as was the Fox platform, which provided both compact and intermediate entries in later years.

I know one substantial difference in the design was that the older Falcons, Fairlanes, etc had the infamous "drop in" gas tank that would rupture if you looked at it funny, while the Granada had a conventional tank strapped on underneath. I'm pretty sure the Maverick's tank was strapped underneath too.

Maybe some parts like the front and rear subframes and suspension parts carried over? I guess it's possible that the Maverick/Comet and Granada/Monarch are derived from the old Falcon kind of in the same way that today a Nissan Xterra or Frontier is related to an Armada or Titan. Same basic frame, just shortened and with a body that doesn't hang over the frame rails as much, and suspension parts modified to tuck the wheels in a bit further for the smaller vehicles.

lemmer

My neighbor is in a selling mood. He has a 1999 Boxster with 31K miles - silver with a reddish interior. I don't know all of the options, but it has a five speed and nice big wheels and tires. It is basically like new. The local Porsche dealer does all service and does it at the prescribed intervals. CarMax offered him $18,000.

I am driving this car today. I like it, but it doesn't have any headroom to spare for me. None of the buttons make sense and they are really little. I am pretty sure it has a CD changer, but in my 25 minute commute, I couldn't figure out how to play a CD. Good thing the engine sounds so good.

One mistake in the above description - it only has 19K miles

qbrozen

He wanted more though, right? What was his price?

Heck of a car for $18k. This is another one of those I couldn't fit in to save my life. Heck, I found the S2k more accomodating.

lemmer

It has pretty decent legroom, but not much headroom. The steering wheel is kinda far away once I put the seat all the way back. Where don't you fit? - if it is headroom, you can just put the top down. I am 6'2" and 200 lbs and fairly evenly proportioned. A coworker my height and about 30 lbs heavier fit into it pretty well too.

I think he is trying to get $20k.

lemmer

Handbuilt. My eyes, they hurt badly now.

qbrozen

I couldn't fit in either dimension. I believe I tried on a 2000 model. It may have been an S, as well. I asked the salesperson if the seat was broken. He didn't seem to think it was.

andre1969

My eyes, they hurt badly now.

Yuck. I thought they blew that thing up in "Deathrace 2000" or "Mad Max". If not, they should have! My eyes hurt now, too. :surprise:

qbrozen

I'm not sure what to think of this Fiat. If the work was all done right, it seems like it could be a good buy ... if you like the car. BUT, I certainly have my reservations about someone claiming to have done all this work and then selling it for less than a good paintjob alone would cost.

qbrozen

$300 gamble anyone?

fintail

ROFL, I can't recall seeing somethnig so ugly. It really does have that "Mad Max" look to it, and that's not always a good thing to say.

re: Fiat - probably a $199 Maaco special.

Not the cheapest common car, but I do like a local documented car

Fun driver for Aveo money

qbrozen

Everyone loves jigsaw puzzles .... don't they? Oh ... hahaha ... did I mention its like a jigsaw puzzle where you don't know what it should look like when complete? That's like double the fun, right?

au1994

that actually caused me to curse out loud! Good thing everyone is at lunch!

qbrozen

i'm speechless .... almost.

so just what the heck is going on with this car? I see the benz badge on the grille, the Chevy badge on the rear, and what looks to be Nissan "R" badges on the sides. With the chevy motor, i can understand ONE of those. Where's the Porsche badge??

oh, i was going to ask about the scoop up front, but it looks like that's where the radiator resides.

Man, that is just a bad 80s movie prop.

fintail

Maybe there was a MB/Porsche/GM merger that never panned out?

jlflemmons

"newly repainted"

c'mon, guys, it's a Fiat. How many gallons of bondo do you think it took to fill the rust holes?

stickguy

the Fiat might be doable for $1,200, if you can get 3 months before something major goes. Looks OK in a little picture!

The Integra might be the best bet lately, although I bet the problem is bigger than an altenator (and the guy knows it). Plus primer black, so the thing needs paint and is probably trashed (no pics, how convenient)

Still, if you are handy enough to work on it, it's worth a gamble if it is structurally sound. You could probably get $300 of parts off it, so not much to lose, and it could end up being an OK 1st car (if it's a stick!)

british_rover

Hmhh if it is sound from a structral stand point I am thinking Class 3 rally car.

qbrozen

its the 4-door, though.

british_rover

Doesn't matter as long as it is a stick shift.

You would rip everything out of it but the drivers and passengers seat anyway. The Four door doesn't really weigh anymore then the two door and the longer wheel base might actually make it drift slightly better.

qbrozen

yer right. i just looked it up. The sedan is only about 60 pounds more. I'm surprised.

But ... I'm thinking ... wouldn't the sedan maybe be a bit less rigid?

Ok, ok, so its not a big deal for the money. But if there were a $300 sedan vs $300 coupe?

fintail

Doesn't look bad

"Make me an offer between 2k and 5k" doesn't bode well

Whatever can go wrong will go wrong

qbrozen

mr2 looks real clean. $2k would be a good buy, IMHO.
that statement is strange, though. I mean, when you put that out there ... what kinda moron do you think you'll find who WON'T offer closer to 2k??

Mr_Shiftright

True Story---the Lotus Esprit club is the only one I know of that has, in addition to a President, Sec'y, etc., a "fire marshal" to document all incidents of engine fires and total losses from fire.

My friend who owns Fantasy Junction will NOT allow one in his building.....

fintail

I kinda like this old thing, maybe it's the sidemount and suitable colors, and odd brand

Mr_Shiftright

Honest-looking old truck. Price a tad fanciful but that depends on a closer examination for tin worms. Probably as crude and brutal a driving experience as one could possibly endure. Probably non-synchro transmission, brakes from hell and armstrong steering....but still very cool looking....

british_rover

Sounds like our Series II exactly.

We have gotten probably a dozen people who want to buy it as a daily driver just because it looks like it is brand new.

They just can't understand that it is nearly 50 years old with non-power drum brakes, non power steering, and a non-synchro tranny.

Yeah in low-low gear it can climb a nearly vertical slope but still it is not a vehicle you can drive on a regular basis.

fintail

Why??

Cute little thing

Mr_Shiftright

Hillman Huskies are very cool. Typical British "issues" but basically simple and sturdy enough...same engine as the Sunbeam Alpine I believe (more or less). Might be worth the money to someone if it's as clean as it looks, although really more like $4,000 is plenty. For close to $6K you can score a Morris Traveller, which is way cuter.

A close relative is the Volvo 544 wagon, which I THINK is called a 120 Amazon or something like that...that would be a great car to have, since they are more reliable than a Hillman could hope to be.

They should have named the Hummer the Husky.

qbrozen

'91 Chevy longbed