Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

qbrozen

thanks for the reply.

Well, it does have to be relatively inexpensive while not needing work, so its possible I'll HAVE to settle on a 912. It all depends on what's out there at the time, of course.

lilengineerboy

If its a couple years out, you have some time to do some research. There are about 1,000,000 Porsche resources on the internet (my problem is I'm getting too much information right now), go check them out. Some of your questions are pretty basic so it sounds like you are at the very begining of the learning curve. I wouldn't run out and drop 10-15k without a pretty good idea what I'm getting.
Also, it seems like one of the most important things you can do with an older Porsche is a PPI (pre-purchase inspection), and another one of the most important things is to have maintenance records.

Mr_Shiftright

Actually most 912s have 356 motors...only the odd duck 912E from I believe 1976 or so has the VW engine from the 914. That's what engineerboy is referring to.

The 912 is not a great choice...I have owned 2 of them....I used to describe them as "VW performance at Porsche prices". The 911 is so much more car for almost the same money. engineer is right...avoid the 2.7 liter cars like the plague or woe is you--it'll pull the studs right out of the case and you're in for a $12,000 rebuild. Yikes! My choices would be either a 1973 & 1/2 model with CIS injection, or the 78-83 SC models. Yes, they are clean and without tails, etc. And most SCs have sunroofs, which is a GREAT option, since 911 ventilation systems really suck from that period.

A clean well kept 914 would be a fun option for you, if you can tolerate targa tops. Targa tops are a pain in the butt. They squeek, they leak. Same with the 914 or 911. You really have to want one.

A 911 sunroof coupe from 78-83 is the best of all worlds....you get excellent performance, a rugged, non-fussy car, and you don't have to pay through the nose for one...and they cost no more than a 912 to keep on the road.

lilengineerboy

I think I decided a 356 was beyond my capabilities to restore/keep on the road, and I have been thinking about a 914 as a project because eh, its not like I'm going to mess up a Picasso or something, they are pretty straight-forward, have good parts availability and are within my budget. They are also easy to find around here.

I have also been more seriously looking at the 78-85s or so. I like the idea of motronic fuel injection over CIS (bad flashbacks from my possibly misguided love of 80s Audis), but CIS if maintained seems to work fine. If I go that route, I would be looking for a sunroof car.

Mr_Shiftright

If you take on a 914, get the 2.0 liter engine.

qbrozen

Thanks Shifty.

What would a completely clean and nothing-needed example cost? Of course this would change by the time I'm ready, but hopefull not too much.

Mr_Shiftright

I'd say $8,500 to perhaps $12,000 for the best one in this galaxy.

lilengineerboy

If you take on a 914, get the 2.0 liter engine

Yup, noted and already part of the plan, although there is a company that makes all kinds of adapters to fit other engines to the 914 bay. There are a few EJ20 914s (914 with the Subaru Impreza WRX motor) running around, but I am not ready to take on that level of fabrication.
So with the 2.0 it comes out to about 100 hp (96 or something) in about 2100 lbs, with your butt about 2.5" off the pavement...how bad could it be?

qbrozen

see ... here is my dilemma.
I think this:
'68 912

Is a great deal prettier than this:
'79 911

Maybe I could get a late 60s 912 and put a late 70s 911 engine in it.

qbrozen

here we go.

but you say '77 is not a good engine year, right?

well, anyway, that's the style I like. If the one I think looks the best is not a good choice mechanically, then maybe I need to drop the Porsche idea.

Mr_Shiftright

yes, the 2.7 engine sucks...if you can find a 75-77 with a 3.0 liter motor installed, then that's not a bad idea.

Stuffing a 911 motor into a 912 is doable but by the time you do it, you can just go out and buy a 911---even an earlier one with the chrome bumpers, etc.

By the time you buy a 912, then buy a good used 911 engine, then all the bits and pieces you'll need (oil tank, flywheel, clutch and whatever, plus all the labor....well by that time a real '69 911 for $15,000 will start to look pretty good.

You don't want to go much earlier than '69 for a 911 as the handling gets tricky. I think a 1970 911E is a sweet car. The 911T (for touring) are common, cheaper and somewhat underpowered.

qbrozen

so the 2.2 liter in 1970 was decent?

155 hp isn't scorching, I understand, but its probably adequate for such a car, isn't it?

Anybody have data on that? What are we talking? Maybe 8 seconds to 60 mph?

Maybe I'm being too optimistic. What did these cars weigh?

jrosasmc

You'd definitely know this better than me- What is the major difference between the old Type 917 5-speed transmission and the newer G50 that was used in 911s after 1986? Or was it vice-versa? I know they're both 5-speeds, but they're basically the same unit, I presume?

Mr_Shiftright

yeah the 911E had about 155 HP and was fairly lively...around 8 seconds sounds right. But the 911T is only 125 HP and while it's pretty torquey and very responsive, it's not that fast a car....hence "touring"...a more leisurely pace.

I don't really know the differences in transmissions...I know the 914 uses the 901 transmission, which has 1st gear by itself, down low and to the left. Not my favorite way to shift.

qbrozen

Ok. What's the nicest 914 in the world worth?
As is usual at BJ, this seems like excessive bidding to me.

qbrozen

some of you big American car lovers should check out the Scottsdale list so far for '07. I'm noticing quite a few "interesting" cars on there.

Stuff I just wouldn't expect at BJs based on the stuff they've put on the block the last couple of years. Seems like either they are expanding their horizons OR everything else has just gotten SO expensive that they figure they should start driving up the prices across the rest of the market.

For instance ... an '87 Olds Cutlass? How about an '84 Mustang? Or a '73 Riviera Hardtop? '74 International Scout II? The list goes on and on.

andre1969

here's what has to be the most expensive 1977 LeMans in the world!

It's a nice looking very low mileage Can Am. Kinda sad though that it was a base model that was well-preserved. Crank windows, no buckets or console, and the relatively tame 403. These things officially came with a 200 hp Pontiac 400, but Cali and high-altitude areas got stuck with the 185-horse Olds 403.

lilengineerboy

LOL wowow. The 914 with a 1.7 has 80 hp, the 1970 has the most barebones, spartan interior (not that they were ever "plush") and the weakest suspension. I would think about 10k is about the ceilling for something like that, although it does only have 15k. I wonder if there is still rust starting in the rockers and under the battery.

andre1969

The 914 with a 1.7 has 80 hp, the 1970 has the most barebones, spartan interior (not that they were ever "plush") and the weakest suspension.

Was the horsepower of European cars rated the same back then as it was for domestics? i.e., that gross vs net thing? So that 80 hp gross would be more like 60-65 net?

Mr_Shiftright

It's the 15,000 original miles that brought that money...and don't forget, the auction fees are included in that price, so you can deduct 10%, and also another 10-15% for "B-J fever", which often includes being a bit drunk or having way too big an ego to be "outbid".

If the seller tried to re-sell that car privately in a dinky want ad, he wouldn't get that price.

You gimme $18,000, I'll get you TWO nice 914s and pocket the change.

Geez, my buddy is building a very nice black one, with a 2.4 (!!) hotrod motor, clean clean car, for maybe $8,500.

w9cw

Shifty - you've got that right. I owned a 1967 911S, and it was tricky in the twistys.

Mr_Shiftright

Valuable car, however.

jlflemmons

Used to be a joke about 911 drivers. You could spot the newbies by the crunched rear end from going off the road backwards.

:surprise:

Mr_Shiftright

Especially the 930 Turbo when it first came out. Cops loved them, as they got rid of more drug dealers than the cops could dream of eliminating.

xwesx

I know this probably sounds absolutely insane, but I actually like the looks of that '92 Roadmaster. But, like the current owner, I could certainly use to NOT have any more cars around. I'm sure it has that "floaty boat" feel of the last big cars, but there is a certain comfortableness to be had in putting a little space between you and the rest of your cargo. A truly comfortable family car for the whole family, as long as one can forgive the "driving" experience.

Mr_Shiftright

My main concern about cars like that would be mechanical problems and depreciation into nothingness--but at least you can find parts for them just about anywhere and if you buy cheap, depreciation to zero isn't such a big deal.

xwesx

Well, right, certainly not an investment with any possibility of financial return. But, as long as one buys cheap and gets use out of it, then all the better. Shoot, I could have purchased that one at the sellers asking price with my PFD and still had over $100 in my pocket to transfer title.

Mr_Shiftright

Does that year have the notorious engine intake manifold leak?

xwesx

Not sure, but if I was really serious about it then I would certainly look into that possibility! I think today is the first day I have ever looked twice at one of those things - they just do not have many redeeming features.... as I am sure you can agree!

My '96 Subaru 2.5L is year 1 of the notorious Subaru head gasket failure, and I still have it (even after replacing said gaskets!). All makes, models, and years have their quirks. :sick:

I think having a better car to start with tends to make the quirks a little more tolerable, though!

andre1969

Did any GM V-8's get a reputation for bad engine intakes? I thought that was mainly the Chevy 3.1/3.4 and, to a lesser degree, the Buick 3.8?

A 1992 Roadmaster should have a TBI Chevy 305 with 170 hp or, if optionally equipped, a TBI 350 with 185 hp. These B-bodies went LT-1 for 1994, with a 200 hp 4.3 V-8 (Caprice only) and 260 hp 5.7 V-8 for everything else. Now maybe these LT-1 engines might have gone through some lightening techniques, such as using plastic intake manifolds which wouldn't hold up as well as the old iron ones.

Also, since this '92 Roadmaster is a wagon, it might not be THAT floaty. I think wagons often had heavy-duty suspensions for towing/hauling, which cleaned up their handling considerably. And by the time these cars went to the LT-1 for 1994, I think they made them all fairly firm, except for the base Caprice.

qbrozen

I would never call it "Like new", but it is the most shockingly clean example I think I've ever seen. Exactly what kind of reserve does one set on a 27-year-old economy car??

xwesx

Remember this hideous atrocity? Check out the sale price. I would have never thought someone could stoop so low..... :sick:

xwesx

Hmm. Interesting. And a NJ car at that! I would think it to be worth $2500 in that condition but I have a feeling this seller is looking to shoot the moon with it.

qbrozen

Seems like a helluva car for the money. But I could never live with it. Its just TOO darned ugly.

qbrozen

LOL. a zero bidder for a zero seller. Keep the faith, that transaction will never actually take place.

Mr_Shiftright

That's about market for a '64 Bird coupe #3. They're pretty much a pig to drive, they suck gas at a startling rate of speed and they are hard to work on (and very hard to look at).

I'd predict it'll be bid to about $8,500, allowing for eBay euphoria.

xwesx

A beautiful car, but I could have seriously done without the gold engine treatment...... :surprise:

qbrozen

Just what the hell was this guy thinking?? Stick to pimpin out Civics, my friend!

qbrozen

oh, they're pretty cheap, i know. i consider it a bargain classic, personally. you just gotta love the look ... and i do.

uh... but again ... NOT that color!

Mr_Shiftright

Have you ever driven one? You might change your mind! And for some reason I've never EVER driven one that ran right. Something with the carburation I think. And they are very clumsy on the road--it's worse than one can imagine.

qbrozen

nope. never driven one. that won't change the fact I think it LOOKS good.

But its very big and very heavy ... i don't expect much, personally. Maybe its worse than I imagine, I dunno. Some day ... if I ever come close to a purchase ... i'll have to try one out.

ya know, now that I'm thinking about it ... I'm not sure I've ever truly driven a pre-1978 vehicle ... hmmmmm....

i've owned a couple older than that, but they were never on the road. huh... seems strange... i MUST be forgetting something.

qbrozen

Good grief!! Now I KNOW that is overpriced. And the biggest kicker ... A RESERVE!!! hahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahaha

qbrozen

"Rust has been taken care of by painting over it."

*slaps forehead*

Mr_Shiftright

Okay let's see what we got here...a '62 Fairlane stripper 4-door with 6 cylinder engine and possible rust issues....let's be kind and call it a LOW #3 car..that looks like about $2,000 worth of car to me.

Excuse me, I need to "thin out" my abandoned car collection....

qbrozen

Oh, there's no "possible" about it. check out the pics. There are LOTS of rust bubbles poking up behind that paint. I can't believe someone could just throw paint over that horror show and think, "yup. she's fixed."

ugh!

Mr_Shiftright

totally boring old car...junk it and make room and parts for the worthy ones, that's my two cents. I'm sure there's a nice clean Fairlane 2 door hardtop V8 that could use some tail light bezels or something.

kapbot

Maybe semi-realistic? Could you stand looking at it if it did run?
Love the idea, but too much money, IMO.
Like these, but don't know...
Like these too, $$??
Don't see many of these, but it's an auto.
Still runs? Seems overpriced. Looks like a Stratus or Sirius at first glance.
No way!!
Maybe. BRAKES!! Dammit!! That has to be the most often misspelled word in automotive history!!
Like these for some stupid reason.
I'm speechless.
Nice project, too much moola, IMO.

All of my opinions are based on asking price. I'd consider the Cutlass for around a grand, if it's all that it seems to be. Maybe the Caddy if it could be repaired relatively inexpensively. There are more that I would consider, and share, if only the owners could figure out how to post a freakin' picture!

turboshadow

I love the Cutlass, but I'm a sucker for anything with aluminum slots!

Anyone make aluminum slots for FWD cars?

andre1969

Anyone make aluminum slots for FWD cars?

Most FWD wheels I see are very flat-faced, as the part where they actually bolt to the car is pretty far outboard. RWD cars, it seems, tend to have wheels that have more of an offset, which allows for deeper patterns, like those slotted wheels.

If you put those particular rims on a FWD car they'd stick out too far. But I also have a feeling that if someone tried to imitate that style for FWD use, it would just look flatter, and not as attractive.

I've always wondered...why DO they make FWD cars like that? It's not a recent trend either...even the old Eldorados and Toronados of the 60's were like that.

qbrozen

I wonder what crate motor he has for that Nova. If its a good one, AND if the rust gods have not taken their toll, that seems like a good deal to me. Maybe I'm nuts ... i dunno.