Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

bumpy

If you want a Nova clone that moves like a V-8, that pea soup green/cream Ventura 350 is still sitting at the local used car lot. '64 Catalina sedan is still there, too.

chevynutt

what is the best way for me to get the maximum hp out of my 96 cavalier?

jrosasmc

So you consider older S4/S6s to be bordering on exotic status?

lemmer

I wonder how they are compared to M3s and M5s of the same vintage for parts and labor.

lemmer

One word - NOS.

Mr_Shiftright

Well the older S4s are "exotic" only in the sense of their repair bills...it terms of looks and performance, they are certainly not what you'd call sexy or highly visibile babe magnets --LOL!

I'd guess that older M3s and M5s are equally pain to work on and equally troublesome, yes. Most older Ms I see are either real beaters or nice cars that have consumed cash well beyond their market value.

My two "best buys" in old sports cars are still the 78-83 Porsche 911SCs and the Mazda Rx-7 twin turbo. For $15K you get great looks, great performance AND some looks from passersby at least. Nobody but nuts like us would even notice an Audi S4.

qbrozen

I say this in all honesty ... really not trying to be a jerk ... but my answer to that question is to trade it in on something with more hp.

stickguy

CLick and CLack will never hire you for the recommendations show! And let's not start the whole sports car debate, since the best bet on that has to be an early Miata, although maybe that isn't old enough for you.

The gen III RX-7 is fast, but I don't come close to fitting in it at 6'.

I do love that vintage 911 though. Maybe someday...

jrosasmc

What would really suit your style would be a Series 4 Alfa Spider (1991-93). They're the final Spider iterations with the aero exterior improvements as well as Bosch Motronic injection, which helped performance a little bit.

Mr_Shiftright

Good choices those two, but I don't consider the Miata or last Alfa Spiders any kind of serious performance car, and neither is very exciting either. I was thinking "bang for the buck". You get a lot of car in a used Miata or Alfa but not much "bang". An SC Porsche is very exciting to drive and an RX-7 TT will tear your eyeballs out of your head...they are pretty quick if they are running right and superb handlers...an RX-7 TT would spank a '78 Porsche SC pretty badly.

Beat me with a fan belt but Miatas and later Alfas are kinda sorta ....um....more of a ladies car . Having owned both I think this gives me dissin' rights. Actually I like them both a lot, but they don't get to the viscera.

Now an Alfa GTV with competition head and good suspension, that would be a great project. Not only will it slap a 90s Alfa silly but being a coupe it has better rigidity and longevity....and it knows how to rev, too. And unlike Miata, you don't see them all over the place.

Now I need to find a blower for a Scion xA...I'm short 50 hp.

lemmer

Are you really thinking of a Scion? Not that there is anything wrong with that. Are you still driving a dripping 928?

How about a Monster Miata or a supercharged or a turbocharged Miata? Then you would have excitement and car for your dollar.

jrosasmc

I didn't know you owned a Miata at one time! Was it one of the earliest models?

lemmer

How about adding a 944 Turbo to your bang for the buck list? It is somewhere inbetween an SC and an RX-7 TT in performance, and costs less than either. The turbo S is almost as fast as an RX-7, albeit at a similar price.

rorr

"An SC Porsche is very exciting to drive....."

Well THERE'S an understatement. I would add that, for the novice, an older SC may be a bit more 'excitement' than they can handle......particularly if they enter a turn a little hotter than anticipated an lift the throttle midcorner or (heaven forbid) try to trailbrake......

yeeeee haaaaaaaw!!!!!!!! Hey, lookit that....I can see my own taillights.....

bumpy

Hmmm. 3.1 V6 and a supercharger? Some people claim you can get some good numbers out of the unloved Quad 4 on the three days a year when it's working right.

steine13

I drove a 94 S4 that the neighbor's oldest had for a while. I think it was a '94; anyway, it was the 5cyl turbo 5sp as God intended. And I'm not sure I'd call it a "sports car", it was just a very nice, fast, surefooted, great-handling car, that was ultimately a nice large sedan. The acceleration was something else; no big burst of power, just that steady long pull that kept getting stronger as the engine spooled up. VERY nice.

We were discussing rallying at work today, and that brought memories of Walter Roehrl entering a 200 turbo quattro in a Rally event when everyone else was driving tiny, nasty 4wd Renaults... he came in 3rd.

Awfully nice cars, and if you have a good mechanic or can do the work yourself, ultimately not so troublesome. Depends on your pain threshold, I guess :-)

Speaking of pain threshold; a buddy I don't often see anymore is leaving for CA... he's using his 5000 fwd sedan to pick up a quattro 5000 wagon... he just "happens to have" a towbar setup for 5000s... he's got 4 wagons, 4 q sedans, and one fwd sedan.... compared to him, Andre is sane...

I'm getting a new car tomorrow... I think. It's 15 years old... 4cyl 5sp 108 hp 2300 lbs... with 210k on it.... needs new tires and is almost too good for a winter beater... any guesses

-Mathias

oregonboy

I'll guess a 1990 Civic SI. The HP is right, but it might be a little light.

james

jaserb

That's kind of a high HP number for an early 90s 4 banger, so a Civic Si or an Escort GT gets my guess. Maybe an early Protege. Something with a slightly uprated engine.
-Jason

steine13

WRONG!

(It's a '91)
.
Color me impressed; that was pretty quick!

I get to try it out tomorrow, then we'll see.
Edmund's Private Party value is $300... I bet that puppy would see near $2k on ebay, if done properly. It's not perfect and the air blows warm, but it came from CA and has no rust... a friend of mine commuted in it in the bay area for some years, hence the miles.

I'll report...
-Mathias

Mr_Shiftright

My ideal car was always something like an Alfa Sprint coupe from the 60s. Small, light, really fun to drive, good-looking, easy to fix. I'd like a modern commuter car and one of those on the side, and I'd be very happy.

killerbunny

Agreed. Better save some money and trade that cavalier for a new Scion Tc.

lemmer

Bronco player's car.

au94

believe it was a 94 caprice. wheels were worth more than the car.

glad the guy is going to be ok.

lemko

...on a used car lot going for $5350. Those cars sure hold their value! Somebody told me that 1994-96 Impala SS's are going for something like $18K!

rorr

"Somebody told me that 1994-96 Impala SS's are going for something like $18K!"

'Going for' and 'asking for' are two different things. Dealer retail on a perfect '96 with very low miles and all the options is barely $12k according to Edmunds.

andre1969

I see Impala SSes asking for more like $20-25K on occasion! Part of the problem is that a lot of them get modified and customized, so the seller thinks that they should make a profit on that. Back in 2004 I could've bought a '96 Roadmaster for around $4995, in pretty good shape. Basically an Impala SS dressed up for a shuffleboard tournament. Maybe I shoulda bought it?

stickguy

well, the wheels aren't worth much any more.

Kinda odd to see this much damage, and the airbag never even deployed. Wonder what the front end looks like.

lemmer

What is a Gunaci worth these days?

fintail

Huge Caddy

Another huge Caddy

And about those Impala SS's, I am really curious about their actual transaction prices vs asking prices. That car attracted a lot of speculators when new.

lemmer

I like the big Caddies.

It looks like you can get a decent Impala SS driver for about $6,000-7,000.

Very nice example for less than twice that.

I think the owners of these cars often need to join up with the Delorean and Fiero people when they start claiming these are $25K collector cars. Just my opinion.

au94

I remember hearing of a few SS's being purchased and pu "up on blocks" by collectors. I think theis was probably a mistake since Chevy did produce them for several years, albeit in low numbers. Just a guess, but I would say a low mile top notch version would be worth 10-12k. I don't agree with the Edmunds number for a standard version at that price. I think the speculation was that these were the last of the RWD V-8 sedans.

fintail

I can imagine the SSs going for 10-15K for a nice one...but the 25K prices I have seen are kind of funny. I am pretty certain none change hands for that money, that's very close to original sticker. They are kind of cool, but aren't *that* rare.

martian

How hard/expensive is it to restore these cars? i always wanted one-but the ones i see (that are in my price range) have a lot of body rust..and these cars only had a half-subframe to begin with . Does anybody know if body panels, trim etc. are available for these cars now?

rorr

Restoration parts for old Camaro's?

Ummm, yes. Try a google search for 'Camaro Restoration Parts' and then block out the rest of your day.......

andre1969

is that I believe it's the '96 model, which was the most common, that's actually the most desireable! They only made a handful of the '94 models, and those used a trim piece to block out part of that big triangular quarter window, to give it that little kicked-up look. The '94-95 models also had a column shifter and no tach, but for '96 they went to a floor shift and tach. Here's a website with more info.

Looks like production was around 6,000 for '94, 19,000 for '95, and 41,000 for '96. They only made around 100,000 TOTAL of this body for 1996, so when you factor out the Roadmaster, Fleetwood, Caprice, and the Roadmaster/Caprice wagons, I'd imagine the SS was the most popular B-body that year. I think technically they still referred to the Fleetwood as a D-body, but it was just a stretched out version.

Mr_Shiftright

Now you can even have models of Project Cars just in case you want to fix something up without ruining your garage!

http://junkyardjewels.com/cars1.html

IMPALA SS: I've checked the auctions and it seems like you're right, it's the '96 model that brings the most interest. The trend seems to be, roughly, that the active range for nice ones is $12K, and that bidding pretty much starts to "stall" (that is, the cars begin to be "not sold") at around $15,000. There were a couple of ultra low miles cars (like 1,000 miles or 4,000 miles) that did apparently sell for around $23,000. Also noted lots of customization.

CAMARO PARTS: Like he said, any part, any time, anywhere.

fintail

An early Camaro is kind of like a Model A/MGB/57 Chevy - you can actually build one out of repro parts, right?

au94

yep, so long as you have a frame. Even that is optional if you want to spend the big $$.

I'd throw the early (64 1/2-73) Mustang's in this lot as well. Tons of aftermarket an repro parts available.

Mr_Shiftright

I think the best aftermarket parts networks are for:

MG (you can order an entire new body for a
VW
Alfa
Mustang/Camaro/Chevelle/Corvette

au94

how about Jeeps? Can't you order a fiberglass CJ body? I can just imagine bouncing that off a rock or tree!!

lemmer

Boxsters are getting pretty cheap.

Mr_Shiftright

As they should be, following the law of supply and demand. They made a gazillion of them and now everyone who wants one new or used and can afford it or nearly afford it pretty much has one. So with buyers satisfied, price continues to drop.

lemmer

I guess my thoughts were more along the lines that prices for early 968 convertibles and early Boxsters overlap on ebay (even for some completed sales) and autotrader. It seems like that shouldn't happen as the Boxsters are considered "real" Porsches by most and 968s fall into the oddball camp (even though we all know that I love them). I would take the Boxster, all else being equal.

fintail

I kind of like these old beasts in an unexplainable way, but I bet this car is rusty. Is that HP rating correct?

Replace that paint and it might be a looker of a battleship

andre1969

but yep, the Chevy 400 only had 170 hp in 1972! Kinda makes one wonder what the need was for it, since the 350 was putting out 165 hp that year in the big Chevies, and the big-block 402 had 210 hp. There was a 240 hp version too, but it doesn't look like it was offered in the full-sized cars, only the intermediates and Camaro. And at the top of the heap, the 454 was still pumping out 270 hp.

The 400 would've had more torque than the 350 though. It was standard in the Caprice and station wagons that year, while the Biscayne, Bel Air, and Impala had the 250 inline 6 standard. Only a handful of Impalas were built with it, and here it was only offered in the 4 door sedan and hardtop coupe. The hardtop sedan and convertible had the 350 standard.

I guess Chevy just never really thought about their 400 as a performance motor. In 1970 there were two hp ratings, 265 and 330 hp, but after that it seems it was mainly just a station wagon-type motor. Ford was the same way in the 70's with their 400, though. In 1972 it only had 168-172 hp. Seems like Ford looked mainly to the 351 for performance, as even the 429 and 460 only put out in the low 200's.

Pontiac used a 175 hp 400 in 1972, which was standard on the Catalina wagon and Catalina Brougham. I forgot about the Catalina Brougham...what's the sense of offering something like that when you also have the Bonneville and Grand Ville in your lineup? :confuse: This 400 was optional in other versions of the Catalina, the LeMans, and the Firebird. However, Pontiac did put out a 250 hp version of the 400, which was standard in the Grand Prix, optional in the Firebird.

Chrysler seemed to put a little more effort into their 400 that year, offering a 190 hp version as base, then a 250 hp version for the Monaco/Polara, and a 255 hp version for the Charger.

Oh yeah, I remember finding a road test of a '72 Caprice hardtop coupe online awhile back, and I believe it had the 400. I think 0-60 was around 11.5 seconds. Consumer Reports tested a '72 Impala sedan with the 350, and I think they got 0-60 in 12 seconds. Those wagons were considerably heavier though, so I wouldn't expect one with the 400 to be as um, "lively" as those examples! :P

steine13

Well, boys & girls,
I didn't get a new car after all. That 91 Civic ran well -- following a jump start, anyway -- but the steering was a little loose, and the axles seemed to maybe bind a little, and the suspension was definitely shot. So there you have it, the proverbial $3000 thousand-dollar car, unless you can do it all yourself, which I don't have time for.

Too bad, $1k isn't a bad price, with the body in very nice shape, a rebuilt tranny that is actually very nice 1 year later, and 209k on the clock. These little puppydogs fetch $800 on ebay with a blown engine :surprise:

Oh well, less excitement, more garage parking.
Meanwhile, I can't find any 15" steelies to put snow tires on my Vibe. Sixteen-inch snows are kinda silly for a car like that. Anybody got any ideas? I tried tirerack...

-Mathias

andre1969

I had a little '91 Civic for a rental car. It was a sedan...LX model I want to say. It had an optional engine, but I forget the hp. I want to say it was 100 or 108? I've heard that on these Civics it's actually extremely cheap to replace the engine. Supposedly there are plenty in supply. So I guess if you can find a good one with a bad engine, you might be better off than finding one with a good engine, but needs a ton of other work.

As for 15" steel rims for the Vibe, have you tried a local junkyard? I'd imagine that the Vibe has the same wheel bolt pattern as the Corolla and Matrix.

british_rover

There are kits to put everything from a 1.8 Integra motor to a JDM (Japanese Domestic Market) 2.2 Honda Prelude motor into 88-91 Civics and CRXs.

There was an article on Sport Compact Car a few months ago and for about $8000 they built a CRX that pulled more then a 1.0G on the skid pad and ran 13's or 12's on nitrous.

I really want to get a CRX or Civic of that year and make a beater rally car out of it. I could probably do that for less then $4000 since I don't need the nitrous or the crazy suspension and wheels that they put on this car.

steine13

Two words for you: Left Foot Braking!

-Mathias

lemko

I have a lot of those models used in "Junkyard Jewels." The models only cost about $18 new at Toys-R-Us or can be had for less at flea markets. Then just paint them up to look like wrecks and sell them for $125! I have the Checker taxicab, but as a former cabbie, that car should realistically be a lot more banged-up if it was used on NYC streets for any period of time.