Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

andre1969

I wonder if MTV threw together that little slang cheat-sheet without really checking the years, or if there's some reason that some years of Caprice/Impala are left out? For instance, why wouldn't a Donk include the '76? Probably the most notable change for '76 was dropping the convertible. Oh, and the Caprice went to square headlights, and the Impala went to that same prow-shaped front with the slanted headlights, only the Impala's were round.

Then, what about the '77-79 Caprice/Impala? The '80-90 was just a re-skin that lowered the front, raised the rear, and made the coupes more upright. I wonder if MTV just got sloppy, or if there's really some reason the gangsta and rappers and playas just don't like the '76 or '77-79? Or am I thinking too much into this? :P

stickguy

you are thinking too much, and giving MTV way too much credit.

Mr_Shiftright

The 356 is iffy---it needs to be carefully inspected for rust, because the body IS the frame....so when I see comments about floorpans I'm thinking WHERE on the floor pan...if it's where it meets the A or B Pillar attachments, whoa, watch out!

Also the VIN # says it is a 1958 model and the engine is from a 1960 car.

Interior looks nice enough and it has the nifty optional Carrera hubcaps.

Hard to say but I think the bid is already too much for the car....figure floorpan work and engine rebuild you are in $15,000, so you've paid $12.5K + $15K----shoot, just go buy one already done for that money. Value if floor has rust and engine is tired and non matching #s??? I'd bid the car at about $7,500 fair price to all concerned. If engine checks out fine (good compression, etc), let's say $10K-$12K.

MACH 1 -- agreed, overpriced for a 351 automatic. You should be able to find a clean driver for $20K in today's market, a show car for $35K, so his price is loony-bin. If it were a 428, it would be worth it, since such a car restored can top $50K. The math is obvious...you can't get from where this car is to a show car for $25,000 and you can't get to a clean daily driver for $12,000. In pure cold numbers, the car is essentially a parts car worth $3,500.

au94

For the Mach 1, I come up with a low retail of 10,150, mid level of 21400 and high of 35400 according to NADA so I think there is more value here than just a parts car. We'll never know since there are not any better pictures to determine the extent of the rot. Keep in mind parts are plentiful (read cheap) for these old 'stangs so if the rot is not too bad you could turn a profit on this one. Lord knows theres a market for these.

Mr_Shiftright

Ah, well, I think you may be mis-reading what NADA means by low retail:

"Low Retail Value
This vehicle would be in mechanically functional condition, needing only minor reconditioning. The exterior paint, trim, and interior would show normal wear, needing only minor reconditioning. May also be a deteriorated restoration or a very poor amateur restoration. Most usable "as-is"."

Well then low retail is a complete driveable decent-looking car with some obvious needs---but you could drive it home....so how does this wreck qualify as having the same value?

It don't IMHO.

If you got this car for free you'd hardly make out. We've got rusted floors, doors and 1/4 panels, we need engine, interior, paint and apparently brake work.

There's nothing here worth $8,500 bucks.

I mean, they made over 72,000 of these things in 1969---this is not a rare car by any mean.

I found a couple on autotrader that looked like decent drivers for $15,000.

This is a #5 car to my mind, not a "low retail" car. So Grade 4 doesn't even apply, as a #4 is also driveable.

Old Car Price Guide puts a #4 at $5,800, so I'd put a fair market value #5 at around $3,500.

Body work $3K
Paint $3K
Engine $4K
Interior $2K

Okay we are in $20K and we haven't even touched the suspension brakes, tranny, rear end, tires, chrome and glass. That's another $12K easy.

Better to just go buy a nice one.

au94

no, no, I should have clarified, I would never pay 8500 for this car. 5k should be the sellers dream sale. I'd start at 2500 and go up to 3500 max. These are ticking up a few % points each year so I think you could make a few grand off it. As long as you didn't lose your head and do a complete frame off, better than new restoration with a 35 coat Chip Foose paint job.

and I'll admit, I'm a Mustang guy. I'd hate to see Ol' Paint put down

fintail

Well, it's a period color....future low rider maybe

Mr_Shiftright

Well maybe you could buy it cheap and just stuff it in the back 40 until the day when it is worth restoring (if ever). But you know, you start with a pile of junk and you end up with a pile of junk --sometimes even IF you spend a lot of money.

Rust is pernicious, it's very hard to stop and it can come back to haunt your restoration.

au94

you are probalby right, but without seeing it I would not write it off. It's still a classic Mustang and a Mach 1 at that.

One thing I am sure of, it will sell and it will sell for too much $$.

Mr_Shiftright

Given the description, which is invariably better than real life, I would write it off. It's not that rare a Mustang---72,000 for one year is a lot of cars, and it's not a 428 or a 4-speed. There are Mach 1s and there are Mach 1s.

I'm not so sure it will sell for anything close to asking. Collector car buyers are a lot smarter than they were 10 years ago. A Mach 1 buyer knows the market. Of course you might get the buyer who's Dad had the same color car and maybe he was born in the back seat, etc., so sentimentality will overrule common sense. It happens.

au94

sentimentality will overrule common sense. It happens.

exactly!!

xwesx

AHHAHAHA..... yeah, like me keeping my '69 Econoline.

qbrozen

how is this even up over $1K??
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/AMC-Gremlin-1972_W0QQitemZ4585029163QQcategoryZ5357QQrdZ1QQ- cmdZViewItem

stickguy

I had the same steering wheel in my '74. Must be an X.

nothing that I would want to touch, but at least it is easy to see the condition of the floor pans when their isn't an interior.

Mr_Shiftright

the real question is: why hasn't the reserve been met already?

fintail

Just look at that interior

Interesting graveyard

Not many survived like this...I'm not saying that's a bad thing

boomchek

Here's one for you Fintail. This guy had this Benz up for sale for about 6 months now. For that money I can get a S Class 10 years newer.

link title

And here's a nice rare MB 2.3L 16 Valve. link title

steine13

That 190 is nice, and might be worth a 3rd of what they're asking... even if its canadian $.
A 4cyl baby Benz is alright, but not with a wing and skirts.
yech.
-Mathias

andre1969

I'm intimate with that feeling...probably what keeps me hanging onto my '68 Dart, a car that I really should've unloaded around 7 years ago!

au94

OUCH!! The Eldo's interior hurts my eyes!!

andre1969

is one reason that I really prefer the Toronado and Riviera version of these '79-85 E-bodies. The Eldo looks nice on the outside, but that button-tufted look is just too much. For the most part I think Buicks stayed away from those buttons, but Oldmobiles and Chryslers sure seemed to have a fetish for them.

lemmer

That model actually came with wings and spoilers, and they are worth waaay more a plain jane 190. I kind of like them, but they money there is a lot of stuff I like more.

lemmer

Apparently Cavaliers are becoming collector cars. Please note that the price is firm; they know what they have their hands on.

I don't remember this '74 442. What kind of engine?

Donk. I just wanted to use that term again.

Strong running 2002, or at least he thinks it would be if it wasn't half buried in weeds.

lemko

You're right. My 1985 Chrysler Fifth Avenue had a red interior like that. I loved it! That Eldo's interior looks so inviting! Too bad it's got such a crappy engine.

andre1969

but that '74 4-4-2 should have a 455. I'd guess 250 hp, tops.

fintail

Very nice looking 126, but yeah, the nicest sedans aren't worth much more than 10K US anymore, and that's for the best of the last 560SELs, not earlier cars like that one. That car could bring maybe 7-8K to a MB enthusiast, few others would be brave enough to face the maintenance.

The 2.3-16 is less overpriced (but it still is), and does look nice. Good use of EVO wheels, it just needs an EVO spoiler.

andre1969

that's another reason that I preferred the Toro/Riv to the Eldorado. With the Toro/Riv you usually got an Olds V-8. I think the 350 was standard in '79, and the 307 might have been standard for '80 with the 350 being optional. From '81-85 the 307 was what went into most of them, although the Buick 4.1 V-6 was standard, and the dreaded Diesel was always an option. A couple years you could get the 3.8 turbo in the Riv, but in the heavier body I'm sure it wasn't the rocket it was in the Grand National!

Now the earlier Eldos weren't bad, as the '79 had the Olds 350 and the '80 had the Caddy 368. But I think Diesels were more prevalent in the Caddies, the 1981 V-8-6-4 was troublesome, and the '82-85 aluminum 4.1 was an underpowered nightmare!

As for the pimpy buttoned seats, I actually kinda like them in the Chryslers. There was just something about the leather that seemed supple and inviting. As I recall, the leather in the '79-85 Eldorado was firmer, and more akin to the type of antique furniture that your grandparents would throw a plastic cover over!

lemmer

Edmunds long term test on a BMW is a good example of what Shiftright is talking about when he says it costs a lot to keep BMWs, Porsches, etc. "right."

au94

another good reason to lease one of these if you want one that bad. enjoy it for 36k, then send it on its merry way.

fintail

The key to running an older model car of that type is finding a good honest independent. The one I use costs approx 60-70% of the dealer, and the work is the same. The only thing they lack is shuttle service.

fintail

I've never seen one of these before

lemko

There was a Sun Coupe at Macungie this summer. It was the first one I ever saw.

xwesx

Interesting group you found this time!

I'd be tempted to buy the Caddy just to take the seats out and put them in my living room! I don't think it would be safe to drive sitting in them, though.... :P

It is difficult for me to fathom a 90's car being called a "survivor." :sick:

jrosasmc

What '90s car was called a survivor?

xwesx

1991 Oldsmobile Cutlass

Well, the phrase was, "not many survived like this..." See fintail's post to which I replied.

Mr_Shiftright

This is a perfect example of my "standing bet" that anyone who insists his old German car is "perfect" should let me examine it for 1/2 hour and I'll come up with at least $1,000-$2,000 in repairs, or better. On a "perfect" Jaguar XJ6 I'll up that to $4,000. I won't dare make this bet on a Lexus.

I rather envy people who are content to drive cars at 80% efficiency. It's like when I go to the ballpark. There I am worried about saturated fat and right next to me is this fat guy cramming nachos and 24 oz Pepsis and 55 gallon drums of peanuts and dancing to really bad disco music and watching the worst team in baseball and having a great time. There's something liberating about not having high standards, you know?

Maybe I need to go back to British cars, where high standards are simply not required and breakdowns are a badge of honor :P

fintail

If a car is fairly crappy it can be not so old and be a survivor. Like a running Hyundai Excel or Yugo...

Now here's something my speed. It's a factory two tone car too, if it matters to anyone but fintail freaks. Could be a good cheap driver

It might be nice, but "near show"?

lemmer

After looking at those two, I don't think I like wheat colored cars.

The MB looks like a decent beater to drive.

The Alfa looks so much bulkier than earlier models.

boomchek

link title

lemmer

If you are going to make a fakeydoo that is only going to fool the ignorant and stupid, why not build it on an a less maintenance intensive car, like a Grand Marquis or something?

boomchek

Yeah really, and at least have a tighter fit on the body panels. I never understood kit cars, especially the bad Countach/Diablo kits based on the Fieros with the odd proportions.

lemmer

63 Vette - I thought these had all been restored previously.

jaserb

Hey, watch it! '74 is a good year for Spiders. That car looks pretty nice, and the price is about right. Biggest problem is the color, followed by the sagging rear springs. Those Turbina wheels are also an absolute nightmare to keep looking sharp.

Paint that car red (or yellow ), put some Panasport wheels and new springs on it, drop the top, and it's a whole different story.

-Jason

jaserb

And while I'm talking Alfas, some of you may remember this one:
jaserb, "Project Cars: You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"" #530, 22 Apr 2005 10:44 am

It's currently in my garage, waiting for me to cut out the last few spot welds holding the driver's side floor in. The interior is out and in boxes, and I've sourced most of the parts I need to replace to get it in the shape I want it. I was very happy with the overall lack of rust on the car. Just the front driver floorpan to worry about, all the rockers / wheel wells are rock solid.

I've sorted out some mechanical issues, the biggest of which was that it needed a rebuilt SPICA pump, which was a chunk of change. I added some Euro cams at the same time and that really gave it a kick. After buying pretty much all the stuff I needed, some stuff that was probably frivolous (like a really nice set of aftermarket wheels and tires on eBay that I just had to have), and selling a bunch of extra parts I'm right around the $4k mark.

So once I get my neighbor to come over with his MIG and weld the new floor in I'm ready for paint. I'm hoping I can get a decent paint job in the $2-3k range if I do some of the prep work. The goal here is to be ready for top down driving in the Spring, but I have a lot of work to do to get there.

Here are the wheels:


-Jason

Mr_Shiftright

I really LIKE two-tone fintail cars...it cuts down the bulkiness/boxiness of the profile...I think they are very cute in fact.

ALFA SPIDER -- well now, if it REALLY is in "near show condition" the price is possible to achieve. ($6,200).

63 Corvette -- well I dunno about this bidding...seems like you can get a pretty nice one of these for $50K or so, and this being an automatic, without power steering (grunt), and needing quite a bit of work still, I'm not sure how pleasant this will be to drive around. Probably destined to be a trailer queen I'd imagine (sigh...). Personally, I'd swap out a p/s box and a 4-speed and authenticity be damned on this baby. I bet I'd get more for it "revised" than stock!

JASERB -- I like those wheels! The Euro cams are a good idea -- I hope they give you a little more mid-range grunt.

jaserb

New wheels probably should have been the last things I bought, but these were so good looking. I had decided on Panasports but those are almost as common on these cars as the original wheels. These wheels I bought are Alfa specific, made in Italy by OZ, and I've never seen another set.

-Jason

fintail

I once thought about making my fintail a two-tone, but I am way too lazy for that.

Oddball 126...appears to be a legit US spec car, but with velour interior. This was a no cost option, but almost nobody ordered it. Nice fender trim and "I'm a poser" wheels, too

Mr_Shiftright

560SEL -- high miles, it'll eat money like a whale eats krill. Be afraid, be very afraid.

fintail in two colors -- well what was the other color you had in mind---black top? Dark blue might be interesting.

I once saw a 190SL dark blue with deep red hardtop and you know, it really worked.

fintail

I was thinking white top. Somewhere I have a color chart of period MB two-tones, I think the only two tone offered with my light blue was a dark blue top.

fintail

Uncommon to see one of these so nice

Nicely preserved example, but not the best colors and the price seems too high