Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

oregonboy

I owned a Rotary Pickup for several years. Compared to the other compact pickups of the day, it was a rocket. The downside was that it got 13 mpg. It had a 20+ gallon tank and really needed it... I usually only went about 250 miles on a tank.

james

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah old rotaries really liked to suck gas and the engines were rather short-lived a sa rule. But I still wouldn't mind say an RX-3 coupe as a kick around car. They were a lot of fun.

jaserb

Not an Alfa spider, but there's a guy on another board installing an S2000 engine in a GTV.

I can't link to it without incurring the wrath of the hosts, but suffice it to say it's not exactly a bolt in replacement. There probably won't be a whole lot of Alfa there when it's done.

-Jason

rorr

... there's a guy on another board installing an S2000 engine in a GTV."

Personally, I don't understand that one. I would think the GTV would be a bit of a heavy chassis for the high rpm torque output of the S2k motor. Wouldn't a torquey V6 from any number of sources be a better match to that chassis?

lemmer

Rough '57 Chevy, did I mention it is rough?

Rough '37 Ford

I like this old Ford truck, and it even comes with an engine

I like these style Novas, but not at this price in this condition. Most importantly "NEEDS NO OUTTER SHEETMEAT AT ALL."

stickguy

I don't know about the auto market in Alabama, but they certainly have a lot of beaters down there.

The '57 and '37 look like junk yeard material, but you might be able to strip off some pieces. But, i guess some brave soul might try to bring the Nomda back to life.

the PU is decent, and could make a nice rod project. Love the Flintstone floorboards though.

I actually like the nova. One of my favorite cars. I would however like a nice, clean finished one. But, this one looks like a good enough foundation for a DIY restore project, but the price is a bit too high, and I believe the seller is overstating it's condition a bit. Even if the "outter" sheet metal is OK, still needs a lot of odds/ends/interior stuff that will add up. Probably a perfect car for Overhaulin!

andre1969

but now this local 1977 LeMans is showing up on eBay. The guy wanted $7,000 for it on Craigslist, but now he's "down" to a Buy-it-Now of $6,000, with a starting bid of $3500. I wonder what the seller means by "virtually rust free with the exception of 2% near each wheel"? Not that I need another one of these, but I'd be tempted to go check it out since I like these things, and maybe part with as much as $2000-2500, as long as no nasty surprises popped up when seeing it in person.

Also, cars back in the 70's often had wheels and tires that were really too small for the car. So sometimes it's a good idea to put a larger wheel or tire on. However, I have a feeling that this 1973 LeMans is overcompensating for something, since it's a bit of overkill!

stickguy

I think you should have built a bigger garage. Something the size of a cow barn sounds about right.

stickguy

They both look to be in decently clean condition, so if you like stuff like this, probably wouldn't go wrong. I like your red one better, largely because of the wheels (and the color), which make it look "sportier".

And someone should remind the 2nd guy that cars didn't really run all that well in 1973, so that might not be a big selling point!

lemmer

along those lines:

andre1969

Now that is just flat-out WRONG!

lemmer

au94

Man, the 57 is rough, basically needs all new sheet metal all the way around, but I love these Nomads. Someone with deeeeeeeeeeeeep pockets and a lot of time would be able to make a heck of a street rod out of that.

And yes, to answer another qustion below, there are a lot of beaters in Alabama, especially in the rural areas. I lived there and went to school at Auburn and used to see lots of prospects on the backroads between Auburn and Huntsville.

au94

I'd just like to ask the owners of these "cars":

Why??

fintail

Boring and no upside - a car my dad would like - but it's cheap

It is an unusual bodystyle, but appears past its prime

This has to be a typo

lemmer

That Plymouth should be worth it to someone. It runs and it is old enough to garner attention.

stickguy

Man, that thing dwarfs the Rabbit it is parked next to.

For the t-bird, I don't know the market, but doesn't seem too rediculous (13K) for a nicely restored creampuff, which it seems the seller is representing it at. that is, if you actually like these beasts!

lemmer

T-Bird price is $1295.

This Scirocco might be fun, but not at $5K.

andre1969

they were kinda stodgy compared to a Chevy or Ford, but they still just have a simple, conservative charm about them. For the most part, Mopars from the 1949-54 era really aren't that exciting to look at, but they were sturdy, durable tanks.

lemmer

An enterprising fellow. He probably pays around $250 for these in Germany.

xwesx

Okay, I know this post will generate more talk about the Galaxie 500 in the backgrounds than the C20, but I'd like some feedback on this old gal as I am going to restore it once the house is finished. My plans do not include a sale at any point, but as there are so many enthusiasts/experts here, it is always good to know how deep I am likely to get before the end!

Out of laziness, I'll post links to a few photos of the truck first:

C20 with original 11' cab-over camper
front/side view
Passenger side view, doing some work
Doing some REAL work!

Original 307 2bbl, 4-speed, step-side long bed. This truck is a C20 custom camper conversion, originally built in Canada plant and shipped directly to Beryl motors in Pennsylvania where an 11' Banner cabover camper was built for it and mounted prior to the owners taking the keys. They drove it around the lower 48 before taking it back to Chugiak, AK. They put about 27K on it that first summer, then used it two years later for one trip to Homer, then two years later for another trip to Homer. After that, the owner parked it in his yard and left it. In 1997, I purchased it from his wife after he'd passed away. I had to cut down a small forest (literally!) to get it out, but it cleaned up nicely and is nearly 100% original as it stands - including the hubcaps and rims! The mileage when I purchased it was 29,029. Current mileage is 69,684 and it runs/performs exceptionally well.

My plan for "restoration" includes only repairing the few minor dents, cleaning up any surface and eating rust spots, repaint to original color (canary yellow, as seen!), replace the wood in the bed, and pulling the engine to replace the gaskets, seals, etc., to bring back up to par. Oh, and replacing the steering wheel with a replica due to shrinkage cracks. Since the day I purchased it (including the purchase), I probably have about $2K invested in it. My guess is maybe putting another $5K into it for the project, and no, I am not valuing my labor.

What are your thoughts? Would you hold it or fold it?

xwesx

hahah... I especially like the 4th photo. Extremely relevant to the sale! :P

lemmer

I like it, and I like the original look to it. I would do as little as possible to keep it nice.

andre1969

and it's not often I see the long bed in a stepside design. And it looks like it's pretty solid overall. Now is the truck 307 cammed any different from the car 307? I know that Mopar would do that with some of their truck engines. For example, the passenger car 318-2bbl put out 230 hp, but the truck version only put out around 200 hp, because it was cammed differently to maximize torque. I think the truck engine was also beefed up in general. Perhaps GM did something similar with the 307?

Is the 307 enough engine for what you need? I'd definitely keep the truck and fix it up.

fintail

Certainly, keep it. It's kind of a handsome old beast, and it looks to be in reasonably nice condition, not beat up or rusted away. Should be a cheap and easy renovation as it is a fairly simple vehicle.

Mr_Shiftright

No harm done at $5,000 total and good therapy, too. But I'd certainly keep the reins tight and not go overboard, as the collector value isn't going to matter until that truck hauls you away :P

The problem is this: when you clean up the truck and repaint it, then everything else you didn't touch is going to look bad. This is the great danger you must always be on guard about! Avoid expensive temptations.

I think if I were you I'd strive for an "industrial grade" restoration and not a pretty-pretty. The paint can be thick, the rims and bumpers just painted, the engine kept stock, the seats done in a plain vinyl or a canvas, etc. Clean and proud but utilitarian. No chrome re-plating or having the speedometer re-numbered, crazy stuff like that.

This I think suits a truck of the 50s-80s. Tarting them up isn't worth the time or the money IMO. If it were a woody wagon or a Ford depot hack, sure maybe you'd go for the museum look---but 60s trucks are ....well....trucks....and should maintain their dignity as workhorses not polo ponies.

rorr

I've been asked my opinion on the asking price for an '81 911SC Coupe with 142k miles. I've not seen the car in person (just a number of photos) but the car looks to be pretty clean and I've been told the engine has 'good compression' with all the records. Also told the paint/interior is all original. Car is a creamy off-white with black interior, a sunroof, and whaletail rear spoiler (not my cup of tea but some folks like'em). Photos reveal a carpeted dash mat - that's not a good sign.

What sort of mechanical bugaboos should one be on the lookout for in this vintange 911 and what are the going prices for these in 'average to good' condition? Car has not been listed anywhere yet; I think the owner is just trying to determine what sort of money he should ask. I was thinking $9-$10k but I don't want to offend the guy if this is way off base.

lemmer

GT6 -- once described as "possibly the worst car in the world", but I suspect that is a bit harsh, even if uttered by a British writer. This was Triumph's answer to the Datsun 240Z (careful, don't spit coffee all over your keyboard). (from Shiftright)

Hemmings Sports & Exotic Cars did an article this month expounding on the virtues of the GT6. They already recommended buying a Biturbo. What is next - an article on the greatness of Jags with Chevy engines?

I don't know if the owners just work out all of the problems with these cars and they actually are pretty good now, or if it is just revisionest history written by a fan of the marque. Either way, I enjoy reading about some of these somewhat orphaned cars.

xwesx

I have not looked into it much, but I *think* that the short block is the same on all of the 307s. I should ask a friend of mine - he'd probably go into all of the intricacies. My problem with cars is that I only know as much as I need to know to accomplish my tasks - I have too many interests to delve too deeply into much of anything. :sick:

The 307 is great in that truck - I can haul *anything* with it, though I cannot do it quickly! Not that I would want to, mind you. I think that it reins me in enough to keep me within acceptable operating limits based on my load. For example, that last photo I posted was a 12,000# load! I had 52 sheets of 3/4" 4x8 OSB in the bed of the truck, then the trailer was loaded up with all the 2x6, BCI joists, rim board, versa-lam, etc to build the first floor of my house (26x40). I pulled the load at about 35 mph, though I could have gone faster on flats, etc., if I would have really wanted to get out of control! The gearing lets me operate nicely up to around 70. Above that and I'm revving the engine quite a bit. If I keep it at 65, I'll pull 11 mpg. 50-55 nets me about 12.5-13 on a good day. Above 65 for too long and things start getting ugly in the realm of MPG!

My guess is that 307s in the 68-72 Chevy pickups are a rarity nowadays on anything other than farmhands. Apparently they just aren't as prestigious as a 350+!

Oh, and here's a list of autos that apparently are original applications for 307s.... correct me if I'm wrong....

1973 Chevrolet / Chevy Chevelle Deluxe
1968 - 1973 Chevrolet / Chevy EL Camino
1973 Chevrolet / Chevy Nova Custom
1968 - 1973 Chevrolet / Chevy C10 Pickup
1968 - 1969 Chevrolet / Chevy G20 Van
1969 - 1972 Chevrolet / Chevy Chevelle Greenbrier
1969 - 1973 Chevrolet / Chevy Camaro
1970 - 1973 Chevrolet / Chevy Nova
1968 Chevrolet / Chevy Impala
1968 - 1969 Chevrolet / Chevy P20 Van
1968 - 1972 Chevrolet / Chevy Chevelle Nomad
1968 - 1973 Chevrolet / Chevy K30 Pickup
1968 - 1973 Chevrolet / Chevy G10 Van Sportvan
1968 - 1972 Chevrolet / Chevy Chevelle Malibu
1969 - 1973 Chevrolet / Chevy G10 Van
1968 - 1969 Chevrolet / Chevy P30 Van
1968 - 1973 Chevrolet / Chevy C20 Pickup
1969 - 1972 Chevrolet / Chevy Chevelle Concours
1968 - 1969 Chevrolet / Chevy K10 Pickup
1968 - 1973 Chevrolet / Chevy K10 Suburban
1969 Chevrolet / Chevy Chevelle 300 Deluxe
1968 Chevrolet / Chevy Biscayne
1968 - 1973 Chevrolet / Chevy C20 Suburban
1969 - 1973 Chevrolet / Chevy Blazer
1968 Chevrolet / Chevy Chevelle 300
1968 Chevrolet / Chevy Caprice
1968 - 1969 Chevrolet / Chevy K20 Pickup
1972 Chevrolet / Chevy Monte Carlo
1973 Chevrolet / Chevy Malibu Estate
1968 - 1973 Chevrolet / Chevy C30 Pickup
1968 Chevrolet / Chevy Bel Air
1968 - 1973 Chevrolet / Chevy EL Camino Custom
1968 - 1973 Chevrolet / Chevy K20 Suburban
1973 Chevrolet / Chevy Malibu
1968 - 1969 Chevrolet / Chevy Chevy II Nova
1970 - 1972 Chevrolet / Chevy Chevelle
1968 - 1973 Chevrolet / Chevy C10 Suburban
1969 - 1972 Chevrolet / Chevy Chevelle Concours Estate
1968 - 1969 Chevrolet / Chevy G20 Van Sportvan

stickguy

at least some of it looks salvageable.

The Trabant guy is on German Crack at that price, unless he throws in his GF on the beach.

the C20 is nice. Would be perfect with a SB (just my preference). i always liked that style truck.

the Scirroco is another car I have a sweet spot for. I would take a flyer at the current 2K bid, but no the 6K BIN. Lot's of expensive parts on it probably, but overall it gives me the willies (danger danger Will robinson!) without being familira with the work. Still, probably a hoot to drive.

Of the bunch, for the price, I would take Rorrs porsche though!

As to the GT-6, it's probably like the Pantera at this point. Any that are still running have been modified heavily by the owners to cure the inherent problems they came with new. I hear you can actually sort out a Pantera fairly well, and even keep it from overheating!

I don't actually know what the problems with the Triumph were. Was it "the worst" because it wouldn't function, or just because of how bad it worked when it did?

Mr_Shiftright

GT6 ---it was the worst of everything...build quality was horrible, drives like a dog cart, and accomodations fit for a midget. I really don't know how you "sort out" a car like this, and without the top going down, I don't know how you tolerate all the shortcomings. With a Sprite or Spitfire, at least when you flip down the top so many of the ills just float away, but in a claustrophobic coupe that sounds like a B-17 over Schweinfurt, I just don't know. This is why I NEVER read car magazines articles written by owners when I want to find out the truth about a car. I ask the people who have to fix them.

Mr_Shiftright

If the car has a few needs your offer is not insulting and probably wise.

I just saw a really nice 1980 SC sell for $14,000. Not perfect but mighty sharp car.

One thing you have to remember about Porsches from the 1980s is that they are just used cars, that is, the older they are the LESS they are worth and the newer, the MORE. So they behave like used cars, not collectibles.

Given that you should buy them as you would any used car, and pay more for better cosmetic and mechanical condition, and just disregard the nonsense about "classic". If it were a 1973 911S or an early 930 Turbo, then maybe collectiblity kicks in, but here we are looking at a car that must speak for itself with no help from the dreamworld of collector cars.

Small cosmetic problems are easily fixable. Your main concerns are:

1. Rust or bondo or prior body damage --- remember, these cars have no frames. The body is the frame. If the body bellypan is compromised, you have nothing but junk.

2. Engine/transmission. This is the heart of the SC and it had better be "right". Compression test is mandatory. Transmission should shift smoothly with no noise or vibrations. A bad clutch is not too bad a thing, I wouldn't let that deter you but a bad engine or transmission gets mighty expensive.

So get a compression test, have the car lifted and look for weirdness underneath, run a magnet over it to check for bondo, and give it a good HARD test drive. If it stalls or misses or pukes oil underneath, deduct $1,500 right off the bat.

Neat cars, real fun to drive. If it checks out and is clean, $10K is a really good buy. If the man wants $13,5K and up, it had better be pretty sweet to look at.

rorr

Thanks for the input. Would it be fair to say these are much simpler (less expensive) machines to keep in serviceable order than similar period 928's?

bumpy

A couple of things seem a bit odd: why would a Canadian-built truck be sold in the US? My impression is that there was very little cross-border sourcing pre-NAFTA. Also, a 307 seems a rather dinky motor for a camper special, particularly a C20. That aside, it's definitely a keeper. You don't even have to replace the rocker panels.

Mr_Shiftright

Simpler yes....less expensive? Well, depends on what breaks. ANY old German car is gonna kill ya' if something major breaks, whether it's a 928, 911, 914, a BMW 2002 or an old Audi and even a FI VW Westphalia.

The trick is not to buy a "fixer-upper". Buy the best you can afford and then keep on top of it....figure $1,000 a year should keep your 911 in fine fettle if you bought a good one to begin with.

xwesx

That is a good question. When I checked the VIN, its #s corresponded to the... hmm. Now I can't remember the name of it. Maybe I got that one wrong, but I thought it was in Ontario. Anyhow, I do have the original paperwork on the truck and the camper, so that stuff provides insights that one does not often get with 30+ years old vehicles. I also have an unlit cigarette in the ashtray from somewhere between 69 and 74 when it was last parked. That was a novelty, so I just left it in there. It doesn't look to me like the ashtray was ever used, so the owner must have been a window-flicker. Sheesh.... typical.

Again, the 307 hauls it with gusto. I can load anything I want in the bed of the truck and the engine hardly notices it. If I add a trailer, even a small one, it will get bogged down in 4th going up hills. 3rd will pull anything @ 35-40 mph. If I was JUST hauling the camper, I would add air shocks to level it out a bit (not much makes that truck squat, but the camper sure does!) but I would not search for any more power. I noticed that it would get rather winded trying to pull hills when I first bought it, but darn, the air filter housing only had about a 1.5" port opening! I took off the cover, ground out three large ports in it (so the remaining cover is more a tripod than a disc now), and slapped it back on. Other than the somewhat throatier sound it gave the engine, the power jumped like a startled cat. The only downside is that the air filter needs replacing about twice as often (~3500 miles).

xwesx

Well, I went to respond to this one with my usual excess of detail and then somehow managed to close the window. :mad:

I will probably go a bit over the "industrial grade" in some respects, but this truck was not "pretty pretty" to begin with so there is no way it could get that way now. I am going to truely restore it, not do a "restomod" or whatever it is that folks do to deface them. That's a project for my '69 Econoline and/or '74 Pinto wagon. Both of those are not in the near-perfect condition that warrants a strict restoration so I have "play" room with them. I have some engine components (electronic distributor and 4bbl aluminum intake) for the 307 that I could put in there, but I think I will just keep this one absolutely true to form since it is not a daily driver and will be a special-occasions-only (aka "RETIRED") truck once the restoration project starts - strictly towing, "Sunday" drives, teaching the kids to drive a real stick, and perhaps parade/shows if I am a glutton for punishment.

Mr_Shiftright

Well that's fine if you go in eyes open with it in terms of potential future value. If you restore it you're not going to get your money out, but then, not many people do. I never did anyway. But it's great that you'll use it for stuff. Having an old vehicle just sit there is a sure way to kill it, restored or not.

xwesx

Yeah, I suppose that you should always keep market values in mind, but I honestly have no intention of selling it and so if I did for some reason, then anything I get for it is just a bonus. I've enjoyed every minute of owning it. I guess by "truly" I meant that I am not planning to go overboard with anything, just to fix problems that have developed over time like the rust, paint, wooden bed. Normal wear items like glossy knobs, key wear on the paint under the ignition, etc., that stuff is fine and can stay as far as I care. Probably new vinyl on the seat due to a crack that just deveped under my hiney this year and the interior is finished (other than aforementioned steering wheel). The biggest thing for me is that I want it to last and I want it to last in good overall condition.

Leaving it as is is no longer a viable way to accomplish that goal, but again, my cap is around 5K on the project so I will be crunching the numbers quite a bit before I actually dive into it. Besides, if I spend more than that my wife would shoot me and SHE'D be the one hauling me away in it! :P She's not too thrilled about my old vehicles, but at least I am one of those who can keep them reined in.... though I'll not point any fingers here.....

Mr_Shiftright

You need discipline on resto projects, and you need to resist tearing things apart without thinking of the consequences of doing so. For example: Someone gets the notion to "rewire" the truck---well, turns out wiring harnesses are mighty expensive and labor intensive. Maybe just replacing a few strands would have been much better.

Did you ever read John Jerome's book "Truck"? Oh, you gotta get it. I think you can order it used from Amazon. You'll laugh your butt off.

xwesx

"Problem: Hauling horse[poo] for the garden one barrelful at a time is a depressingly inefficient system."

The first sentence and that's all I needed to read. I think I should get this book!

To all: Thanks for the feedback. I thrive on it and appreciate the willingness to share.

Mr_Shiftright

Hey Amazon has a used copy for $1.83. Now THAT is cheap advice!

fintail

Worth saving?

This old beastie has been on Seattle CL for a few weeks

Not really unusual or a project car, but this is my CL dumping ground, I know people like these, and this one looks good.

au94

yes, the Mach 1 is worth saving. Not at that price though. Looks like there is an engine rebuild in the not so distant future as well as some rust repair. But, at 5k it would be a good buy IMHO. Sink a few grand in and you have a nice weekender or go all out and you could have a pretty desirable 'stang. These were dream cars for some folks so one fully turned out can turn 10k easily.

michaellno

Before my first wife and I split up, we bought a '92 Accord LX just like the one in the ad, only in dark blue. She kept it and ran it up to close to 100K before trading it in.

If the miles are accurate, it's gonna need a timing belt pretty soon .. not sure that $4K is the right price.

lemmer

That's interesting. Yesterday I was debating whether to use my Amazon gift certificate to buy "Truck" or "Wodney Wat."

"Truck" would be fun for me, but "Wodney Wat" is fun for me and my little girls, so it won out.

lemmer

That Mustang is pricey for needing a full restoration.

I like the big Chevy. How many golf clubs/dead bodies could you fit in that trunk.

I really like Hondas, but for $4,000 I would be tempted to buy a newer Mazda or Nissan.

lemmer

Here's a good one - 356 that may need a tuneup, maybe a new engine, hard to tell from the description.

lemmer

We need to make sure we use the right terminology when we discuss old American iron. You just thought you knew the correct names.

Pimped-Out Glossary:

Donks - A Chevy Caprice or Impala made between 1971-75. Donks are usually found in the Southeast (very popular in Miami) with rims that range from 22 to 28 inches.

Bubble - A Chevy Caprice made between 1991-96. Named "bubble" because of the shape of the body.

Box - A 1980-88 Chevy Caprice. Named "box" because of the square body.

stickguy

mach 1 - save it, but too pricey for a 2 barrel AT that needs a full redo. Might be better as a build up, instead of a pure restore to factory. But, if you do that, might as well start with any sound Mustang platform.

The Impala looks nice, as does the Accord. Maybe 4K is a little pricey, but given the history (and nameplate), someone will grab it for that price, or close to it.

The 356 scares me. I don't think that is a particularly valuable model, and known rust (which means unknown rust) plus an iffy engine to me says stay away.