Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

andre1969

if another reason we see all these claims of ultra high-mileage cars, whether it's a Benz Diesel, Mopar Slant Six, or what have you, is simply because the ones that are left, by and large, ARE the ultra high mileage ones. The ones that broke down got retired and junked ages ago, and many cars get taken out of the loop when they're totaled out in an accident.

qbrozen

Haha. How is THIS for bidding fever??

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1991-350SD-DIESEL-RECORDS-MINT-BUY-IT-NOW-NO-RESERVE_W0QQit- - emZ4589238566

Certainly, it appears to be a really nice car ... BUT ... $10k for a 14-year-old??

andre1969

would would be a fair price to pay on that '84 Benz wagon? I kinda like it.

qbrozen

Shifty and I will probably differ... but, really, for an '84 with some rust problems?
If the miles are true (pic of the engine leads me to believe they are) and nothing is busted (is the climate control ok?), then I would think somewhere in the low $2k range (like $2200) would be fair.

But, again, I usually shoot from the hip on older cars. If I like it, I am not against paying for it. TMV and I don't always get along.

fintail

I sold my 126 in August. I got $5K for it, and I had a buyer lined up before I was ready to sell. It was a 300SE, gas of course, and had 182K miles. I was the second owner. It had been very well maintained and looked like a 30K mile car. It needed a few little things...I suspect engine mounts would have made it a little smoother, the brakes and tires were 25-30K miles old and the tires were weather checked a little. But everything worked - cold AC, cruise control, etc. It also had Euro lights and was spotless. So there's some kind of market for the nicer cars. I think I could have got 500-1000 more for it, but I wanted it to go to a good home, and for a short time I had 3 cars - I couldn't manage it, no room.

If you live in a harsh climate, also inspect a 126 for rust. They really go around the wheel arches, behind the wheel openings, and around the back windshield.

lemmer

For the big $s he wants, he at least could have finished this RX-7. And no picture of the engine compartment? It makes me wonder.

With that big V8 in there, you negate a lot of the handling advantage that rotary cars have. You could have a more comfortable and reliable car with similar performance in a 300ZX TT for 25% of what this guy wants.

qbrozen

Where is the car ad humor discussion when you need it? This isn't a project, but I got a good laugh at the asking price and wanted to share.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MERCEDES-BENZ-SMART-CAR-2005-AUTOMATIC-CONVERTIBLE_W0QQitem- - Z4590820103

Mr_Shiftright

Geez, I can't help wondering if those bids aren't shills...it seems crazy that you'd bid so much on a car with no details and no inspection. And where can he spend $48K of all things??? The whole thing stinks....

Also a shame he busted up the nicest Japanese sports car ever made....dope!

lemmer

Maybe he is including the cost of blowing up and replacing the "tuned" rotary multiple times. Something had to make him angry enough to yank out everything and put in a Chebby engine.

martian

Suppose you were to locate one of the original (ca 1962) NSU rotary-engined seadns..would it be worth anything? Are parts for these obtainable? Or are they really just so much scrap iron?

qbrozen

any thoughts on correct market value for this?
only 45k miles.
I know, i know, they are a nightmare to fix and maintain ... but seems like alot of car for the $$.
http://wwww.getauto.com/vehicledetail/adid-3284575/1991/jaguar/xjs/flemington/nj

I just checked edmunds and it says this is a $6k car, retail.

Mr_Shiftright

Well if he can't learn to drive and take care of an R-7 twin turbo that doesn't mean he has the right to punish the car and completely ruin it. The RX-7 TT was the perfect sports car and now it's a big noisy nasty thing.

Mr_Shiftright

oh god, the road to Hell. I wouldn't give you $1,000 for an XJS V-12 but I suppose the real market value is about $5,500. Most sensible people (not necessarily any of us here ) avoid these 12s like the plague. They aren't even good looking. You want jaguar with that wood and leather? Buy an '86 XJ6 and be happy....well, happiER.....

I agree...that diesel wagon is just an old wood stove...maybe $3,500 because you can at least get some utility out of it, hauling stuff, etc. But if the tranny takes a dump or some such, you are the loser on that one. The engine alone is worth 2X the entire car.

xwesx

I like the Subaru BRAT in the background of photo #1. The Falcon would have been a good driver during college!

jrosasmc

Yeah I agree with you I wouldn't touch an XJS V-12. But how about the XJ40 series of cars (i.e. 1988-94 XJ6)? I know some people like to put them down but I'm sure all the bugs have been worked out of them by now.

Mr_Shiftright

I know the early XJ40s of that body style had some grievous suspension issues but perhaps the 90s cars are all right if the miles aren't too high and if you have a stack of former owner's maintenance records the size of the Manhattan phone book.

fintail

Not really a project, but I wonder about the price. It's a very un-sporty looking goat

Mr_Shiftright

Well it's not a 455 but it does have one owner and original miles, so he may get something close to his price. Seems high to me, too, and it has been repainted (perhaps not so well?) so I think maybe $12,500--$13,500 should be more than enough for even a generous buyer.

What do I think it's really worth? About $10,000.

gsemike

9 second car... imagine how fast it would be if it had an engine:
whaaaaaaaaaaat

Sharp car for the money but no menion of miles. How are they in the winter?
I like this

I love ads that start with "Alright, here's the deal"
Are V6 Camaros sports cars?

Offbeat beater, but I don't know about is potential as a car to be restored and it looks like it's got a long way to go despite the miles:
Old school Duster

Since they never made a Caprice SS, this is alot of money for a used cop car or taxi cab:
I don't think so

To think, all these gems are in my neighborhood.

Mr_Shiftright

9 second car: It's call "Insta-Car"....all you add is engine!

Duster: Who would WANT to restore a Duster?

Camaro Sports Car: It's the cold air intake, that makes it a sports car. Gee, do I have to explain everything? :P

andre1969

that people restore Dusters, but more that they hot rod them. A Duster or Demon/Sport with a mild 340 or 360 could easily embarrass many a muscle car with more name value. And while they were never offered with them, they can be made to accept a big block. After all, you could get a big block Wedge or Hemi in the '67-69 Dart/Barracuda, which are the same platform.

They're probably plentiful enough in southern/low-rust areas though, that you don't have to settle for a clapped-out beater. I think a lot of older people bought basic versions of the Duster and Demon/Sport back then, too, and held onto them and took care of them. Back around 1999, a buddy of mine bought a pristine 1970-71 Duster that looked almost showroom-new. It was kind of a drab military-looking green, and I can't remember if the interior was green or black. The only thing it really needed was ball joints, which we figured out (more or less) how to put on ourselves. Kind of odd that as nice as it was otherwise, that it needed ball joints. But I heard that these old A-bodies would often go through them in around 50,000 miles if you didn't take care of them.

fintail

That BMW is likely a scam. It'd be amusing to see what kind of reply email you'd get. The scammers have turned from silly priced exotics to silly priced used cars. I'll bet a c-note that it's not a legit ad.

Mr_Shiftright

I think you'd have to do so much work to a Duster to make it driveable, if you put a big engine in it, that it wouldn't be worth it. If you don't beef up brakes suspension, differential, tires, wheels, etc, all you'll have is a death trap. You can't go from 125 to 275HP without serious considerations for safety, especially on Mopars of that body style, which love to crack their frames.

You can buy a Duster coupe 340 already built up nd engineered by the factory for $10,000, so why bother pouring money into cloning one?

andre1969

right up my alley: double your pleasure, double your fun. This is the color combo I love, too, although the repainted one is too bright.

jrosasmc

Why, you don't like Dusters?

andre1969

just very common and cheap. BTW Shifty, you're the only one I've ever heard mentioning the sub-frame cracking before on the A-bodies. Was it all of them, or just certain years and engine combos? While the design ran from '67-76, perhaps they tried to cheapen something at somme point?

Also, I don't know if this means much, but years ago I messed up one of the upper control arms and ball joint on my '68 V-8. I still had my '69 \6 Dart around, cannibalizing it for parts. I pulled the control arm and ball joint off of it, and it was a direct swap. So would this mean that the \6 and smallblock V-8 suspensions were identical, with no beefing up?

The V-8 does have bigger brakes, 10" drums all around instead of 9". I'm guessing though that there must've been some beefing up somewhere though, because checking the weights, the V-8 Darts usually weighed around 180 pounds more than the \6. But the V-8 engine itself was only around 50 pounds heavier...something like 525 lb versus 475. Wonder where the extra 130 lb went? would the different intake and exhaust manifolds, bigger brakes, and different transmission case add up to an additional 130 lb?

Mr_Shiftright

Gee I don't know. I remember the subframe cracking as a fairly serious issue but exact years, I'd have to research. I think 69-72 right around there.

Yeah, heavier brakes and heavier shocks for sure, and bigger wheels and tires. So you'd have to swap out the spindles at least and maybe change the rear diff?

I like engine swaps on cars of equal size and strength, but doubling the horsepower on a car that wasn't built for it is risky biz in my book. Sometimes you get an evil-handling, evil-braking car out of the deal.

I'd rather see the original V-8 cars saved myself.

You can't save everything, you have to discriminate, otherwise you scatter all your resources to no good end.

qbrozen

Wow. I didn't expect such distaste for the Jag.

Its funny, but I've always thought I'd rather have the straight 6 myself, just for maintenance/repair purposes, but my father on the other hand, who is a mechanic, by the way, always said "what's the point in buying a jag if you don't get the 12?"
Of course, that was years ago, and he has probably come around to my way of thinking since he's at the age now that he doesn't want to get his hands dirty much anymore.

I do beg to differ on the good looking part, though. I like the looks of these cars.

Was the '86 XJ with the round headlights or square? I think the square headlights go a long way toward making an attractive car UGLY.

andre1969

that the XJ still had round headlights in 1986, although it wasn't long thereafter that they went to those awkward composite things.

I always get the lettering mixed up from that era...but I really LOVE the style of the sedan. The coupe of that timeframe wasn't as timelessly beautiful, but still had an aura about it. It just oozed class (along with coolant, oil, transmission fluid, etc I'm guessing. :shades: )

lemmer

Decent looking 912.

Decent looking 914.

Decent looking 924S.

Mr_Shiftright

Jaguar V12s are nightmares for owners. It's the typical Used Luxury Car Death Trap----you get in cheap and then waste all your money trying to keep it running for three days in a row. Parts are bone staggeringly expensive, mechanics who even want to work on them are few indeed.

The XJS styling is very awkward and tortured IMO, and driver comfort is abominable for a car of this size. Your head scrunches up into the roof and you can't see behind you...which is important as you want to keep your eye out for the tow truck. You'll freeze in winter and swelter in summer and suck gas like a leaky pipeline in Alaska.

An '86 XJ6 will give you everything an XJS will, for a lot less heartache.

I could hardly think of a more useless car than an XJS, because it does nothing better than its 6 cylinder counterparts and everything worse. And its proportions are tortured IMO, especially the roofline at the high quarters and the most unappealing snout & headlight unity.

1racefan

Anyone remember the "Gold Duster"? Kind of a khaki color with a faux snakes skin roof on it? I think that particular model was done around '72 and had a straight 6. There was one in my neighborhood that stayed around (and was driven daily) for the better part of 15 years.

Mr_Shiftright

912 -- very scary...mention of "rust" in a 911/912 bodypan always raises a red flag (no frame---the body IS the frame). Also, a "rebuilt" engine that has been assaulted with a can of spray paint does not raise my confidence level.

914 -- might be okay, he spent lots of money but here again the rust issue can be scary on these cars.

924S -- poor 924S---unloved but very decent cars.

jrosasmc

I know Porsches are in your level of expertise so I'd like to hear your opinion on some observations I made.

I recently read the new issue of Excellence magazine and they commented that prices of used 928s are on the rise, especially those made between '88 and '95. They must be right on the mark, because I have yet to see a late-model (91-95) 928 sell for below $20,000.

How about 968s? Are they still holding steady in value?

lemmer

Let me slip in here and comment. Excellence numbers are helpful, but I wouldn't rely on them alone.

They seem to apply a halo effect to cars. For example, for a while they had the 944 Turbo S underpriced. When they finally boosted it up, they boosted the regular 944s too which they had right before the price increase. Same thing for 928s. Just because some 90s models are worth $20,000, it doesn't mean a nice '78 is worth $10,000. Same thing for 924s. They have the 924S priced similarly to the plain jane 924. I would pay good money for a 924S, but I wouldn't take a plain 924 unless it was free and even then I would have to think about it.

They also have anomolies in their values. For example, they might have two 944s identical in every way but model year, and have the older one worth more. That is true with old Corvettes, but not with 20 year old unloved Porsche models. They also sometimes will have something like a 1980 911SC go up in value by $500 in a year and right next to it have a 1979 911SC go down by $250 in the same period of time.

I think some of it comes from taking average sales prices reported to them when there aren't enough sales to extrapolate reliable values. Plus they don't know the condition of the cars sold except from the owners' reports.

In summary, a lot of their values don't pass the smell test to me.

Mr_Shiftright

Excellence pricing is ridiculously high (in most cases). I think what they are doing is what they say in the Pentagon when you believe your own propaganda---"we are drinking our own bathwater".

Perhaps excellence magazine is reading their own ads, from owners who take extremely good care of their cars, maintain them at a fanatical level, and perform numerous necessary and unnecessary upgrades to mechanics and cosmetics.

But these "gems" do not represent to me the "fair market value"....it's the boutique market...maybe somebody could get $10K for a 1980 Porsche 928 totally upgraded with bigger brakes, suspension, newer style clutch retrofit, new interior, new paint, upgraded shocks and AC, new style tie rods, etc. Sure, why not $10K because you just spent $25,000 on the car and it probably shows.

But that 928 is not an eBay 928 by a longggg shot.

So that's my explanation of the difference between Excellence Magazine and the real world.

I could deliver flatbeds full of shabby 928s in "fair" condition or "good" condition for 1/4 the price in their price guides, but "excellent" 928s are hard to find and maybe worth the price.

SUMMARY: In a luxury or exotic car, the difference in value between "excellent" and "good" or "fair" is ENORMOUS---it's not proportional...that is "good" is not worth half of "excellent"...it's worth 1/3rd or less.

So exotics are not like normal used cars in that respect.

Excellence needs to get their equations correct vis a vis the relative differences in condition IMO.

lemmer

Cheap Grand National.

Midget racer - can you vintage race this sucker?

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah sure if you can pass tech and prove it isn't dangerous. Also, you'll lose every race but hey, it's for fun.

Looks neat, I'd like to have it, but not for much money.

With old race cars, the value is in their documented history. They don't have to be winners, but they have to be documented "players" in real races---even local ones.

This just looks like an old home-built thing with no history, so it doesn't have a lot of value.

Last of all, you're going to need some guts to drive this car.

Buick Grand National: what a roach, I don't think anyone would even bid on such a thing.

martian

I saw one for sale, and took it for a ride-the coupe is very low and the seats uncomfortable. Also, the V12 sucks gas like a pig-I'd be surprised if the car would get 12 MPG. The owner confided in me how much he had spent to keep the heap running-obscene! The kicker-the Lucas electronic ignition system was alwys a problem-and that great big V12 distributor-$127.00 plus tax-if you can find one! Apparently, this type of cap develops cracks very easily, and the HV system is prone to misfire as a result-so unburned fuel in muffler=explosion and blown muffler!

lemmer

Basket Case 928.

Supercharged 928 for Shifty.

Mr_Shiftright

Any company who builds a car that cools the fuel through the air conditioner----well, that's Jaguar for you.

If the cap isn't fried every few months then you have to worry about the black box for the ignition---that's a mere $650.

V12s can be built to race successfully, but really their forte is smoothness, not power...and the Jaguar engine is very smooth I will grant it that.

SUPERCHARGED 928 --- that car might be a good deal for the current bid of around $3K. '79 is not a good year but the upgraded clutch is a real expensive modification, as is the SC --- somebody poured a boatload of cash into this car.

As for the car being "special", I'm not going to pay extra for peculiar factory stickers or VIN #s etched into the glass. Nobody steals 928s anyway.

jrosasmc

Nobody steals 928s huh? Is their theft rate really that low?

Mr_Shiftright

Well okay, nobody ever stole mine in spite of lots of encouragement. Maybe it's my neighborhood.

fintail

Resale on these is pretty sad

"But is really no that big" - compared to what? Sears Tower?

lemmer

Those Qs are great values. I've posted them before and usually nobody comments. They are nice cars that nobody cares about. Similar LS400s go for a good bit more.

A huge 55 Ford commercial truck for a camper? - Nobody is going to take that thing camping.

andre1969

people have made stranger things into campers, like this old Imperial

fintail

Yeah a LS or an E class etc from that year would go for at least twice as much, even though the original price was almost identical.

I've seen a c.49 Caddy made into a camper too

xwesx

Ah.... that would make a great small-timer dump truck! Of course, getting it to Alaska would be a trick.....

lemmer

911 after a light fire

stickguy

I was liking it up until this part:

The only items removed from this car are the engine, five speed transmission, engine wiring harness, and ECU. Excellent opportunity to acquire a project 911 that needs only minor cosmetic attention and a drivetrain</b

Just head down to pep Boys and buy yourself a new drivetrain! heck, the ECU and wiring harness alone might cost more than my Scion!

I see it is at the Porsche graveyard. The only way I seeing this work (if you get the donors cheap) is if you have the skill, and find another '92 that had a front end wreck but has an untouched back end. Pull the drivetrain, slap it in, and you are good to go.

Other than the slavage title issue, this might actually be a viable project for the right lunatic. Or, shove a 350 Chevy in there!