Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

lemmer

The price of a good paint job would exceed the value of the car. It might be ok to drive as is if you could get it for a song.

I had a '93. The engine is almost the same as the contemporary 300ZX, and the RWD is nice, but they have a tiny trunk and a small back seat.

Perfect ones don't go for much, so not much sense in buying a beater unless it is practically free.

lemko

I remember seeing something about the Schlumpfs a while back. Their workers were angry that the brothers squandered their industrial empire leaving them out of jobs. They burned an old car outside the Schlumpfs' office in protest.

fintail

I remember that, it was an unrestored Austin 7 from about 1930. The British equivalent of a Model T/A, luckily not a rare or valuable car. Still kind of sad, but I doubt the workers would have been stupid enough to burn a valuable car, as the assets were eventually made public.

michaellno

A friend of mine bought one of these over the summer ... I think it's a '93 or '94 with 110K on it. Picked it up for $4K and put a new timing belt onto it ($1100). It replaced an '84 CRX with well over 200K on it...

I agree with lemmer ... very small inside and almost no trunk space. He and I rode with my son up to Montecito for dinner and it was pretty cramped - my friend is 6'2", I'm 5'11" and my son (16) is 6'1". He almost didn't fit in the back seat.

ghulet

...I've never understood why people will fall all over themselves to pay $4k for most 10-12 year-old Japanese cars. I never really saw anything special about the J30: kinda small but heavy, not roomy, not especially luxurious, dated styling, lousy gas mileage, RWD but not fun. What's to like?

michaellno

Can't speak generally, but in my friend's case it was a one owner car (his boss at work), so he knew the history, and, well, anything has to be a step up from a 20 year old CRX, especially when you're 6'2".

Besides, the car he drove before the CRX was a '76 Chevette, which his parents had bought new. He bought the CRX in '95 or so, so you can imagine that a 20 year old Chevette was on its last legs.

The Infiniti, by comparison, is luxurious.

lemko

...I guess a 1976 Chevette would seem luxurious compared to a 1949 Crosley. I think there a better choices among Infiniti as well. He could've got an early Q45 for that money - the cool one without the pretentious grille.

ghulet

I guess a J30 is a step up from an '84 CRX (but not from a '91, IMHO), but just an illogical progression. They have virtualy nothing in common (maybe that was the goal). I just never liked them; could be because my neighbor got hers stuck in the alley behind my house and kept literally running into my apartment while trying to get out; I don't think I had ever yelled 'get an SUV' at someone before or since; it's just plain stupid to have a RWD car w/o traction control in Chicago if you expect to get around in winter. It's not even that the snow is so bad, it's more the ice; temperatures change rapidly, so it may snow, then melt, but invariably freeze on the ground by the next morning. And the city doesn't plow or salt alleys, so it's a free-for-all.

michaellno

I see your point, but since my friend lives in California, the RWD issue doesn't matter much.

OTOH, going from the CRX at what I would guess is 30MPG on regular gas to the V6 J30, which requires premium fuel and gets <20MPG, his gas bill probably doubled or tripled in size.

He drives all over SoCal -- he's involved in race horse photography (his web site can be found <a href="http://www.steelhorse-photography.com/">here), so he's always at Hollywood Park, Santa Anita or Del Mar in San Diego.

lemmer

How much would this hot rod be worth if it was put together?

Auto Union - not many of these for sale.

I wonder if a TVR in nice shape would be expensive to keep running, seeing as how they use Ford engines.

Clean '76 Charger.

qbrozen

I am really intrigued by some of these kit cars. It really does seem like he's selling them cheaper than it would cost me to build myself.
Is there something wrong that I'm missing here? Are they really atrocious to drive?
http://dealer.collectorcartraderonline.com/dealersite.php?750227

hope that link works.

lemmer

I bet they aren't as nice as they look in the pictures, and I bet many of them are atrocious to drive. That being said, they do look cheaper than a lot of poorly assembled kits you see on eBay.

I am not a fan of replicas in general, but some of them, like a Cobra, are assumed to be replicas by most people.

I've never driven a Sebring, but I wouldn't be too ashamed to tell people if I owned one.

The Ferraris are total poseur cars and look awful.

rorr

"Are they really atrocious to drive?"

Atrocious compared to a modern car or compared to an original? I can't speak to some of the Porsche 356 or Speedster replicas, but I know that some (I repeat 'some') of the Cobra replicas drive better than the originals (stiffer frames and modern suspension/steering/brake systems). Just because they'll never hold their value or have the respectibility of the 'orginals' doesn't automatically mean that from a mechanical standpoint, they won't be as good.

Mr_Shiftright

Ford Hot Rod -- Hard to say how it would drive but most glass kit cars feel like you built them in your back yard (which in fact you probaby did). The Cobra kits are better because they have been carefully developed over the years in large numbers; also, being loud, rude and open cars people aren't expecting too much in comfort. But a closed car without sound-proofing and built in limited numbers---well, it would feel as you might expect---like a stage coach. Ultimate value all assembled? Maybe $15,000 if you are lucky. You'll never come out on this one at the asking price. Free would be about right. Remember this car is a total fake, there is no metal body as with most of the more valuable hot rods.

General rule of hot-rodding: Add up receipts, divide by 2.5 = current market value.

DKW--he wanted to save it from the wrecker but the wrecker is where it really should have gone. He might think these are "simple" two-stroke engines but wait until you try and buy a roller bearing crankshaft for one....your socks will roll up and down.

fintail

Mazda eh? Idiot

462 = 462 gallons per mile

stickguy

I almost bought that car (with a 4 speed) when I was in high school, but it didn't work out. That was the one that you had to jack up the engine to change the rear plugs.

lemmer

Wow, that guy is dumber than the Aston Healey guys.

I'd like to have that Lincoln just to have once owned a car with suicide doors. No, wait, I'd rather have an RX-8 (that gets about the same gas mileage as a Lincoln).

andre1969

my Mom was talking about getting a new car. I was really pushing for a Monza at the time, because I thought they were so cool looking. She ended up with a 1980 Malibu coupe. Probably for the best, because that ended up being my first car. I probably would've hated driving something as cramped as a Monza...if it would've even still been running by 1987 when I got my license! :P

bumpy

Sticking a low-power V8 in something the size of a 240SX with a sold rear axle must do wonders for the handling and performance. At least one Monza survived into the mid-90s; a friend of mine had one for a little while.

qbrozen

well, yes, i'd have to say "compared to a modern car." Is something like that all about looks? Is it really worth it to spend, say, $14K on a replica rather than a new Hyundai? I guess that's my question.

I always thought I'd like to build a replica one of these days, but is all the fun in the building and not actually the driving?

I think I like the Jag replica with the V8. Seems like that could be quite the handful. My wife likes the Benzes, though. And, for some of those prices, its hard to argue with her.

lemko

...people I knew would always confuse the name - i.e. Monza RX7 or Mazda Spyder 2+2.

lemmer

I am really not a fan of the Benzes or the Jags. The big '70s wheels and tires just scream out "this is a kit car!" Plus they have 4-cylinder engines, so you won't even get the fun of scaring the bejeezus out of yourself like you can in a Cobra replica.

andre1969

when Monzas were everywhere and Mazdas were a rarity, people probably confused them all the time. The Monza with a V-8 was actually somewhat of a porker, around 2800 lb or more I'd guess. They actually used several different V-8's. While most of them were 305's, the 350 did end up in there for a year or two, and there was also another small V-8 of the era, like a 262 or something (NOT the 267 of '78-82 vintage). They were all the same block though, so I doubt weight differed much among them. Also, I don't think any of them put out more than 130-140 hp. I think the 262 only put out around 110!

The main problem they had is that the suspensions would sag and wear out fast under the weight of a V-8, and it would stress out the body structure as well. You could also get a Buick 231 V-6 in these cars, which probably gave it a better balance. The 231 was very lightweight for a 6-cyl back then, not really much more than some 4-cylinders. And it was usually good for around 105-110 hp.

If this type of car is really your thing though, I think the Mustang II with a 302 is probably a better bet. Scary thought, isn't it?

When I was a kid my neighbor used to race Vegas. He'd get one and put a 350 in it (a "real" 350, not smogged 70's 350). I hope he at least beefed up the structure and brakes and such to go along with that power!

lemmer

So I am guessing an RX-7, with a 1.1L rotary, could maybe outrun a Monza with a V8.

fintail

Early 356....no price almost certainly means they want an obscene amount for it, and are afraid of a barrage of hateful mocking emails

lemmer

Does he really think people are going to send in reasonable offers? I would want a full Porsche inspection and an appraisal before I even thought about it, unless I was going to assume the worst and really lowball him. Not really an effective way of selling the car. I suppose they are just fishing.

fintail

I feel like emailing him an offer of $1500 or so, just for a laugh

If you want to auction it, go to ebay. My god, people are stupid.

andre1969

on Monza performance...

1975 monza 8 cyl 110 hp 3 speed auto. 2.93 axle
0-60 12.6 sec. qtr mi. 19.0
weight-3043
source motor trend nov.'74

1977 monza spyder 305 140 h.p V8 4-speed 2.73 axle
0-60 10.5 sec. qtr. mi. 17.5 sec.
weight-3310
source- car & driver april'77.

And for more info than you'd ever want to read about the Monza, check out http://h-body.org/library/vegabob/h-body-differences.html

Mr_Shiftright

To say nothing of facing mockery, scorn and ridicule from anyone who knows the "real" Jaguar or Benz cars they are trying so ineptly to copy. They are done so badly is the problem, they miss by such a wide mark!

Mr_Shiftright

The old 356 is a valuable car IF correct and sound of body, but those are two enormous IFs.

I've seen so many of these weirdo Porsche ads and you'd be amazed what the cars turn out to be---two cars welded together, fiberglass replicas, wrong year, wrong engine, patched up rust buckets with sheet metal floors from Home Depot, cars with VW engines, cars with 50 lbs of bondo, completely wrong parts numbers (Porsche has matching numbers in about 5 separate places on the car, so you can tell if it is one car, two cars or five cars), stolen cars, chopped coupes...it never ends....

VALUE? If totally correct and very sharp, maybe $35,000 is all the money. It's the kind of car for a fanatic collector however, since the pre A cars are not very much fun to drive.

qbrozen

I think only the elite, really. And, in my opinion, car snobs. I mean, isn't that along the same lines as getting ridiculed in gradeschool because you wore Pumas instead of Nikes? That's how I see it. I mean, as long as you are comfortable with the substitute and don't try to pass it off as the real thing, what's the problem? Hey, this is what I can afford, and its still a pretty and fun car. Just like I could only afford Pumas and they still got the job done.

I saw a 550 replica once and thought it was beautiful. I stopped the owner and started talking to him about it. I've never seen a real 550 in person, so there is no way i could tell just by looking at it if it was a replica or not.

qbrozen

Actually, that Jag is a V8, if the shot of the engine is the same car, that is. And I think the Benz (one of them) said something about a Ford V6.

lemmer

I stand corrected about the engines.

I was searching completed auctions for kit cars on eBay. Out of any group of cars, I have never seen such a low sales rate. It seems that the owners hold these vehicles in much higher regard than the car buying public.

Mr_Shiftright

I guess it depends on which replica you buy, but really models like the Benz Gazelle and VW powered MGTD are so pretentious and so badly done I really have no sympathy for the owners who get razzed about them. It's a bad decision on a lot of levels.

The Beck 550 Spyders are okay but they are reallly so much less than the originals---however, they are competent enough and fun enough to be credible as kits. Ditto some of the Porsche 356 Speedster replicas. They are cursed with the VW floorpan and thus have none of the spaciousness and interior feel of the originals, and of course have the foul-handling VW chassis to deal with, but they drive okay and look okay.

Most of the replicas however are just awful to look at and awful to drive and have botched up all the aesthetics and proportions of the real car.

I think objects of beauty and art deserve some respect. These replicas remind me of tract homes with 3 foot high roman columns made of plaster, or as a friend said "postage stamp wealth".

So I'd say one should stay pretty sober about what replicas are and aren't. By all means drive one before you buy one, and sniff out what kind of reception you are going to get. If you think you're going to be invited to car club events by people owning the real cars, think again.

LEMMER -- the value of a replica always goes down, and stays down. They are lousy investments as you might imagine.

Look, a fake is a fake is a fake and everybody knows it.

fintail

The Gazelles are especially tacky. The fake MGs at least kind of look real from a distance. But my grandma probably wouldn't be fooled by a Gazelle. People should just buy a normal old car rather than something like a Gazelle.

Those fake Shay Model A's from around 25 years ago looked pretty real too, but with the collapse of the market for such old metal, you can get a real one for not a lot more.

qbrozen

haha. well, i don't even bother with club events for real cars that i own, so i certainly wouldn't bother with a club that I'd just be a poseur in.

If it drives and looks bad, then what's the point? i guess that's the trick, though. Like you said, it needs to be well done.

when you buy an original classic, you are sort of buying the quirkiness, too, which you would obviously be missing in a replica. i don't know if that is an upside or downside.

Another question: what happens if you get in an accident with a kit? Do they sell replacement panels? Or is it a throw-away at that point?

rorr

"If you think you're going to be invited to car club events by people owning the real cars, think again."

Actually, I've been to a number of Mid-America Shelby events which occur every year in June in Tulsa (events include car show and track events at Hallett) and the kit Cobras are always welcomed with open arms. The car shows simply have different areas set up for the real Shelby's and the replicas.

fintail

A survivor...maybe a good driver if you like this kind of thing

Mr_Shiftright

Well the Cobras are a different animal since the originals were kit cars as well...Shelby just built them from off the shelf parts using a pre-made body...you don't get much more kit than that.

Besides, trying to have a club based only on original Cobras would make for very short and very small car shows. There aren't very many original Corbras on the road.

Last of all, the Cobra kits tend to run and look better than the originals, another odd thing about them.

I'd buy a Cobra kit car, but that's about the only kit car I'd buy. (289 based, not the 427 which is an ugly brute IMO).



KIT CAR WRECKS -- basically from what I have seen is that the kit cars disintegrate when hit hard, so usually there is no car to repair and no owner to complain.

jrosasmc

What's your opinion on this cheap one I saw today-

'86 Mercedes 300SDL, 185k miles, smokes a little bit on start-up, $1400. I spotted this one at some used-car lot in my town. Even with the diesels is this a good car to try fixing up and using as a beater?

Fintail your opinion would be appreciated as well since you know 126s better than I do.

jrosasmc

Message didn't go through...the car is in ok condition but the paint is badly faded.

rorr

"I'd buy a Cobra kit car, but that's about the only kit car I'd buy. (289 based, not the 427 which is an ugly brute IMO)."

Completely agree. My cousin had one of the ERA 427SC Cobra kits (first, with a 428 motor and later with a 427). He later sold it and got one of the ERA 289FIA kits. With a 289 motor built for the track, that car was quite a bit quicker than the 427 (MUCH better handling car). He said the difference was he was able to consistently drive the 289 car much closer to the edge than the 427.

He's also built a couple of ERA's GT40 kits for other folks. These things are absolute monsters on the track and look incredibly close to real GT40's. Of course, these things will set you back around $70k by the time you get them on the road. I've no idea what kind of value they retain, but I wouldn't be surprised if they depreciate slower than a new base model Corvette.

fintail

What kind of smoke? Being a diesel, it might just need a good tuning and some 'diesel purge'. On that engine I think the key issue to watch for is leaks. The mileage is not catastrophic.

What is the body like? And suspension? If it's all there and all OK, it would be a worthy beater, but if something goes wrong, it's an instant parts car. 126s can be a risk, but they are lovely cars if they are right.

Mr_Shiftright

Well I'd pay a shop $100 bucks to lift it and look around. You know how it goes...if it "only" needs tires, brakes, AC work, then it's not a $1,400 car anymore, it's a $3,500 car.

I'd give it the "shiftright test" for old used cars, which is to take a test drive by yourself, go on a freeway, and drive like hell for 1/2 hour while turning every knob and dial you can get your hands on. If it doesn't overheat, stop, careen off the road, seize, go flat or make horrible noises, and if everything still works, it's a winner.

qbrozen

Heck, I think that's REAL cheap for a 185k mile diesel benz, if its all there.

of course, asking price isn't taking price, but i've kept my eye out for these cars for a couple of years now and have never seen an asking price even double that amount with those miles. $3500 seems to be typical for less than 200k. Don't know what they are REALLY worth, though.

Mr_Shiftright

it depends entirely on whether anybody took care of it. Most old Benz sedans I see for sale are all used up. The problem with the diesels is that most of them fell into the hands of people who bought them cheap but couldn't afford the maintenance.

Now they are falling into the hands of people who want to burn biodiesel, and I fear they will suffer equal abuse...anyone who is willing to spend hours hauling used cooking oil from Chinese restaurants to save money on diesel fuel isn't likely to spring for a $700 major service.

And 185K miles is pretty substantial. Personally I think all the claims for "oh, these will go 300K no problem" are ludicrous, as if you can drive that far without a substantial investment in maintenance and repair. My diesel was in nice shape and had high miles but it cost $100 a month to keep it tip top.

I could probably tell if that Benz was worth the money just by looking at it, walking around it and starting it up for 30 seconds.

qbrozen

speaking of which:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1986-Mercedes-Benz-300-Series-300SDL-DIESEL-NEW-CAR-TRD_W0Q- QitemZ4589787352QQcategoryZ6330QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

15 bids to bring it over $3k and RESERVE NOT MET!

Mr_Shiftright

people are nuts.

qbrozen

well, yeah, that's why i said "if its all there."
They can run forever ... but they can also suck up ALOT of money if you run into a problem.

Diesels are cost efficient ... until you need to fix it.

qbrozen

This actually doesn't look too bad.
Again, though, I can't believe the reserve isn't met!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1984-Mercedes-Benz-300TD-Turbo-Diesel-wagon_W0QQitemZ459039- 3904