Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

fintail

I had an 89 S-class that I bought with about 150K on it, one owner, all records, all maintenance done. Needed only shocks when I bought it, and very little in the few years I had it. Maintenance can be much more important than miles - at least on a car made with quality paint and interior materials. That W126 looked nearly new.

Mr_Shiftright

The car itself is a "living" document that explains very clearly what the owner thought about the car.

fintail

That's true. Respect for the machine can be seen by a simple look at the car or under the hood.

That being said, my fintail needs a lot that I simply don't want to do, but at least I keep it alive :shades:

Mr_Shiftright

Well sure, there are limits, but I bet your car doesn't have crushed soda cans and fried chicken bones in the back seat, nor an oil-soaked engine and orange specks of seat padding stuck to your clothes and no tail lights and the driver's door lock broken so that you have to enter from the passenger side and $400 in unpaid parking tickets and a cracked windshield and what's the exhaust smell? .... :P

fintail

Yeah, you could eat pretty safely off the interior of the car, and the engine isn't even too bad for its age and mileage. I'm a neat freak when it comes to automotive cosmetics. It's completely roadworthy, just kind of aged :shades:

Many cars 30 or even 40 years newer aren't as well off. That's all kind of reason why I respect a well maintained and pristine looking 25 year old car more than a new leased thing.

Mr_Shiftright

I was toying with the idea of becoming an "Automotive Therapist". First I'd interview you in my office, then we'd go out and look at your car!

fintail

I am sure there's something a shrink could have fun with. I know Lemko is the same with his Fleetwood, too :shades: Shaking out the mats once a week, keeping it wiped down.

I figure, I bought the cars, I work for the money, it's stupid to waste it to negligence. Respect the machine and your own self for paying for it.

tjc78

I know we all have touched on this before, but, keeping a car neat and clean is just something that comes natural to me. Yes, I've been known to be a bit obsessive, but if the mats have crumbs on them they need to be shaken out and weather permitting I try to wash it once every 7-10 days.

I've leased my last four cars and everytime I turn it in, the inspector is simply in awe at how clean it is.

Mr_Shiftright

I'm generally disappointed when I see one of my old cars driving around---they never look as good as when I had them.

fintail

The guy I took the W126 to and the guy who maintains the E55 have both complimented me on the condition of the cars...the former said he's seen some very unpleasant sights and experienced some awful smells in the cars customers leave. How someone could drop off a filthy car, especially inside.

My cars get wiped down weekly (more in the rain) , or in the case of the fintail, every time I drive it. Keeps it fresh, and takes a couple minutes.

Here's that 126, pic was taken when it had maybe 170K on it.



Looked new.

And I agree with Shifty about previously owned cars...I don't know if I'd want to see them again, knowing how they had likely been neglected far past my OCD standards.

xwesx

Nice.

If I had the time, I would probably let my OCD tendencies get away. As it is, I tend to them mechanically, and I always make sure I spruce them up real nice at least once a year. I just went through the paces this past weekend with my Escort and Forester. The Forester sure cleaned up nice; it felt new again, which is appropriate since it isn't even two years old yet!

andre1969

I'm generally disappointed when I see one of my old cars driving around---they never look as good as when I had them.

One of my friends ended up seeing the first and third cars he owned abandoned along side the road (not at the same time, of course!). The first was a '76 or so Chrysler Cordoba. He recognized it from the battle damage it had. The third was a white '82 Cutlass Supreme sedan that had three Oldsmobile wire hubcaps and one Chevy sport rim. His second car was a 1978 Chrysler Newport, which got totaled when he t-boned a '90 or so Accord sedan. Oddly, it wasn't hitting the Accord that totaled his car, but he hopped a curb after impact, and that messed up his rear axle.

His fourth car was a 1995 Grand Marquis, that he traded at CarMax in 2004 for a low-mileage '04 Crown Vic that he still has. I've told him it's only a matter of time before he sees his old Grand Marquis abandoned somewhere. :P

Mr_Shiftright

well to be honest, these are the types of cars that do tend to be abandoned once they get a bit shabby. The clean survivors tend to be taken care of, but after a couple dents or a mechanical mishap, most late 70s/early 80s cars are left to die.

fintail

Where you live, OCD stuff might only be feasible under the hood. I'd probably just give up there, especially in winter. Of course, I'd likely be driving some kind of more rugged vehicle and wouldn't be as worried about cosmetics. A yearly detail in the spring or summer is probably just fine.

heritageadam

I am considering buying a particular 1979 oldsmobile regency 98 which I found for sale. For several years I have been on the lookout for one of this make/model/color which is the same as the first car I ever owned. It's located about 3 hours away from where I live. I’m looking for some advice especially regarding the fact that the car hasn’t been driven in years & what that may mean for me.

The current owners bought it from an estate sale this year. They don't have a lot of documented background on the car (or at least not that they are sharing), but have some unsubstantiated stories. The car has not had license plate tabs since 1992 & has sat in a garage. The current owners recently changed the oil & spark plugs & it is running. I've been to see the car & drove it myself. It actually started easily & ran smooth. Clean exhaust coming out.

I am trying to gain a better understanding of the concerns involved in a car that sat undriven for years. (apparently the old man drove it to the store occasionally, though if it didn't have tabs I can’t think he drove it very much)

The painted surface of the car & interior of the car are in good shape. (see pictures) I have no concerns there. However, I noticed some rust on some parts in the engine compartment, in particular on the master brake cylinder. There is some rust underneath & on the gas tank. Surprisingly to me the belts did not look particularly cracked. (I am not a mechanic.)

The current owners do not have documentation to support the mileage. (they’ve advertised it at 25K miles though in my mind very well may be 125K). None-the-less the car appears in good, well cared for shape to me for being 32 year old & original condition. It’s been in an area where cars are subject to salt/rust/winters.

My goal with this car would be to perform any "maintenance/repair" on the mechanicals that should be done in a car that has sat for nearing 20 years. I would expect the belts & hoses would need to be replaced & probably all the fluids flushed? what else? The current owner has changed the oil & spark plugs. I’d probably tow it home & also drain & refill the gas tank.

Ideally I would like to be able to drive the car as a daily driver / general use type car & keep in as original as condition as possible. I’m not looking to put it into car shows.

My questions for you:
- What would you expect would need to be done to a car in general that has sat since 1992 to get it going again? (such as belts/hoses, etc)
- Any ballpark on what it would cost to do what you think would be needed?
- I'd appreciate any thoughts anyone has after seeing the pictures, if anything catches your eye. Especially thoughts on the rust that is present. Could the rust in the engine compartment be due to condensation & having sat for so long?

I'm interested in the car but want to better understand the potential issues/future cost in a car that has sat undriven for years before I sink money into it to start with.

I'd appreciate any advice, whether general about issues that can arise in cars which have sat for years or specific after looking at the pictures that you can tell me.

Thanks

http://www.flickr.com/photos/63108712N06/with/5738909164/

Link to pictures on flickr

qbrozen

the link doesn't seem to be working.

In any case, my concern with any vehicle sitting so long is any rubber and gaskets will probably need replacing and the fuel tank could be a problem waiting to surface. So I'd drop the tank and have it cleaned and I'd replace all rubber hoses (brakes, fuel, and coolant) as well as head and valve gaskets. Thermostat and water pump would be replaced, too. I don't know this car, but if any timing components require maintenance, I'd do those, too. And all of this would be done before I drive it ANYWHERE.

heritageadam

http://www.flickr.com/photos/63108712@N06/with/5738909164/

sorry the link didn't work. this one works. thanks for the advice. I think i'm in the ballpark of understanding what needs to be done.

bob252

Hi, Albeit that this is a late response here, this typical nightmare was created by GM in the Pontiac Grand Am and the Malibu's etc. from way back in 1996(and prior)? anyway all you have to do is remove the PLASTIC lug nuts that apply themselves to the actual steel lugnuts, then remove the wheelcovers. The purpose of this system was to stop the escapement of that wheelcover when hitting potholes and deep puddles etc. look on the side of the road after a heavy downpoor, do you see a lot of hubcaps there? well that was their idea of securing those things, ever go to a dealership to get a replacement hubcap and nearly die from a heart attack when they quote a price for just one of them? My wifes' last Grand Am and her Malibu she now has both used this system, with the GrandAm I replaced all 4 of them with aftermarket ones for $25 at Autozone due to the fact that those cars need new brake pads almost annualy, go figure? I know for a fact what a pain that they are, at least on the Malibu they are easier to work with. Hope this helps others in the future that may have this problem.

ab348

Seems very solid. In general those cars have not aged well. Mechanically they are pretty tough with the only real issues being related to finicky emission controls. Lots of vacuum hoses that crack with age, that control various vacuum diaphragms that can fail, etc. Where they tend to cause trouble with age is more related to body/trim issues.

There are several areas where rust tends to happen on those cars. The usual place on GM cars of that era is under the edges of the vinyl top especially around the windshield and rear window. You need to remove the stainless trim around the glass to inspect - there is a tool that makes that easy to remove. Also, the tops of the door windowframes can rust where the weatherstrip that seals the door to the body is glued in place. The design means that water can get trapped there and cause the channel and frame itself to rust. The other problem area is on the cowl where the heater/AC case is attached to the body. That is sealed with a strip of rope caulk and when that dries out water can leak into the passenger footwell or cause the cowl itself to rust. While that car looks very good and may have none of those issues, keep it in mind.

The area where they age most is in terms of interior trim. GM seemed to cheapen up the quality of those pieces and so what you typically find are the following:

- woodgrain is all just a decal material, and is easily scratched or worn. The area on the windowsill on those (esp. the drivers door) and on the steering wheel is especially prone to this.
- bright trim on the seat bases/backs is a very thin aluminum that has a bad tendency to bend, crack, or pull thru the screw holes.
- the color-matched interior plastic pieces (the blue ones here) in places like the interior B-post, armrest bases, etc, tend to change color (sun fade especially) or crack. If they fade, vinyl dye can restore them.
- chrome on the dash panels is just plastichrome and is very delicate - no not use abrasive cleaners and use a light touch with any sort of cleaning
- headliner does not hold up well and will sag as the foam backing of the cloth material deteriorates. Upholstery shops can re-do it for you if needed or you can even try it DIY
- much of the metal bright trim (around the side windows on the outside, possibly other exterior brightwork) is not stainless but rather a type of aluminum that does not respond well to typical metal polish. There may be a way to polish it but I never found one.

In general a car that has sat that long will need the fuel tank flushed, a carb rebuilt to get rid of the varnish, all fluids and filters replaced, hoses changed, and possibly a radiator flush or outright replacement. But I would not do all of those at once. I assume this would not be a daily driver so slowly pick them off one at a time. Be cautious about driving it for a while and get a sense of what needs the most attention. They are nice cars when kept maintained and the mechanicals and chassis are very solid. Good luck.

Mr_Shiftright

Phase One: Well most certainly you'll have to drain the gas tank, change the fuel filters, probably rebuild the carburetor (you can try without doing that and see how it goes) and replace the tires.

Phase Two: Then it's a question of starting it up and presuming it runs okay, get it on a lift and check for leaks, check the brakes, etc.

If that phase goes okay, then Phase 3 would be a road test and then make a list of what's not right.

Phase 4: It starts well, runs well, stops well, no leaks, no breakdowns. Then you change all the fluids (brakes, transmission, engine oil, power steering) and you're good to go.

It's a lot of work but if you want a car that will actually be usable and safe, that's pretty much what you have to do.

I'd say you should allow $1000--$1500 for rehab at a minimum.

ab348

If I had the space, this one sure looks like a keeper - lovely color combo:

300 Convertible

Don't know about the mileage claim and I always worry when someone misspells the name of their car in a listing. But what a cool ride.

jlflemmons

On that car in '79 I believe Olds used a 403 olds engine. Rock solid motor based on the 350CI block. Not a great gas mileage engine, but good torque for it's size. It is the small block of the Olds engines.
Go with fluids, especially antifreeze. Check to be sure the freeze plugs are not leaking. Have seen that when the antifreeze is left in too long, and they are not a "do-it-yourself" repair.

The drive train on these was good, the carb is not electronically controlled, so you are pretty much dealing with a straight vacuum operated QuadraJet.

andre1969

Years ago I dated a girl who had an Olds 98 with a 403. Can't remember now if it was a '78 or '79. Nice car, although hers was a bit beat-up by this time and would leave her stranded from time to time. Still had plenty of power though.

The 350 was standard in these from '77-79, with the 403 being optional, but I'd imagine the 403 accounted for the majority of them. I think they were offered in something like three trim levels, something along the lines of "Regency", "Regency Brougham" and Regency Brougham LS", but as I recall, the Brougham and LS made up the lion's share of sales, and would have been more likely to be fully loaded.

I wouldn't mind getting a '77-79 Ninety-Eight or Electra sometime, if I could find a nice one at a good price. A few years back, I remember seeing a '77 Electra at one of the Carlisle, PA shows for sale. I think it was only around $2000-2200, and in nice shape. It was a base model though, with just a vinyl interior (but very nice vinyl though), and it only had a 350.

Didn't the Olds 350 tend to have a bit more guts to it than the Buick 350 in that era? I drove a '79 Pontiac Bonneville once, which had a Buick 350, and I was a bit disappointed in how slow it was.

qbrozen

sharp little car for the money. I know it ain't worth much with the 6-cyl 2-spd... but still, you could do worse for $6k.

cute car. why do people take pics of their cars smoking??

texases

The Falcon - what's with the 'Ricky Racer' hoses? And the $$ aluminum radiator? Not like it's fast!

bhill2

Not like it's fast!

You've got that right. I actually had one with the 'small' six (144 ci). This one would be a little faster, but you'd still better like scenery.

texases

My '65 Mustang had the 170, but with a 4 speed, so I *thought* I was (kinda) fast...far from it, really.

ab348

Yeah, some questionable choice during the resto. Not just the underhood stuff, but also the paint color - which he failed to carry through into the engine compartment. Too bad. A plain-jane car like that seems best kept totally stock.

explorerx4

started it a couple of months ago, but today the battery was dead.
For xmas, on the recommendation of a car enthusiast friend she got me a Duracell gizmo that is part air pump, 120 backup, has a flashlight and guess what? can be used to jump start.
I thought to myself, I'll never use it.
Anyways, hooked it up, the car started right up and now I think it's one the best gifts I ever got.

bhill2

Yeah, mine had the fine 2-speed Fordomatic. Once it reached cruising speed (up to sixty if you could spend the better part of a minute getting it up to sixty) it could maintain the speed on the level. On slight inclines low gear could usually get it to stop slowing down.

kamboh

hold em is better then fold em.. I have not experience of cars..
But this comment is my own perception, you can also disagree from my statement.

jlflemmons

Yep, the Olds 350 was pretty much bullet proof. Didn't have quite the power of the Chevy (though I believe both were rated at 185HP), but got better mileage and would last a whole lot longer. Also didn't have the oil consumption problems that many of the Chevy 350's had during that era.

jlflemmons

Just as well it has the 144 and 2spd. My sister had one, and you didn't want to get it too motivated as the brakes were horrendous. The only good thing I can say about the beast was that is was very easy to work on. Which I had to do. Often. :P

qbrozen

Need another one?

Seems a little rough around the edges, but I like it. I have NO idea on pricing. Seems a bit high to me, though. Strikes me more as a $4k car IF there is no rust rearing its ugly head.

fintail

Looks like my color, nice. Doesn't look too "restored" to me, but a decent survivor. No note of/if how the car runs and drives - if its been in the garage for those 24 years, it will need some recommissioning work. If it is solid and just has normal needs, your price is much closer to reality, maybe even go 500 lower. A W111 would be more desirable, more chrome and better trim.

For around 4K, a European would snap it up in a heartbeat. Quite a few fintails have gone back across the pond.

Mr_Shiftright

A 230 is not a car most people want. It's a hard sell, this car.

fintail

It's a W110, lowline. Zhe Ghermans will appreciate it more than anyone else, but they are 5000 miles away.

Now if it was a W112 300SE, you'd have nuts even in NA lining up to see it.

Mr_Shiftright

I suppose you could hang a "FREE BEER" sign on it.

fintail

Poor unloved fintails.

Seller should just knock down the price and let a Euro come and save the day.

Mr_Shiftright

You know, those 230s sold poorly for a reason. I don't think we should interfere with Evolution.

fintail

It was a 6cy engine in a 4cyl body. The 6cyl body cars are generally more valuable as they are fancier. But I don't think they had any special issues, just boring.

qbrozen

What's the consensus on this?

stickguy

It's only cheap to get started?

And hope the clutch is fresh. I seem to recall that the cost of a replacement is staggering, but no idea if it is your sphere of DIY ability!

omarman

I was wondering the same thing. The seller's ad claimed "Dealer Maintenance" but nothing specific. At 72K miles would that include the timing belt and water pump replacement already performed/documented? Wonder how many Porsche service techs out there have never worked on a 928 before? So I would guess an experienced independent shop is where you need to be with one of these. And as you pointed out, there's a twin disc clutch for early 5-speed cars like this one. It looks nice but I'd have to pass. How much more would it cost for a later 928 S4?

qbrozen

why? is the s4 easier to maintain? Nothing I've read so far has indicated that.

I've searched for other 928s, but they aren't exactly growing on trees. For the few I've found, asking prices are $5k to $35k.

I will probably run over there today and take a looksee while the lot is closed.

BTW, I believe the clutch can be updated to the later design.

omarman

why? is the s4 easier to maintain? Nothing I've read so far has indicated that.

Oh no, not easier to maintain. The S4 has the interference engine and of course everything else which is german correct meaning: complex and expensive to repair. But it's one of the most amazing GT cars ever built and remains a very potent street car thanks to its 32 valve engine. Along with more power, Porsche updated the S4 driveline to resolve the earlier clutch problems.

Re: the 928 asking price range of $5K :lemon: to $35K :surprise:
That's about right when you consider it as a measurement of condition: from beater to keeper. And even after weeding out the low range money pits, maybe there should be an uber-scale to illustrate the difference between a german car in "good" condition versus "excellent." It's just a much bigger gap compared to domestic cars and others.

Let us know what you think of that 928S after you see it up close. It looks nice in the ad.

Mr_Shiftright

You *must* do the timing belt every 30,000 miles, along with the water pump--so figure about $1800 for that work. A clutch job will cost about $2200. A radiator is $1200 for parts + labor. Busted engine pretty much totals the car.

The 928S4 is worth considerably more money because it is considerably newer in years and quite a bit more powerful.

Unlike the usual "classics", which go up in value as they age, ordinary "used cars" like the 928, go down in value as they age.

Awesome car but plan on a bare minimum of $250 a month to keep it running, starting from a car that needs nothing when you buy it.

And of course you must be allied with an experienced 928 shop. As noted, most Porsche shops don't even work on them.

If you are in the SF Bay Area, I know a great shop to take care of the car for you.

qbrozen

thanks, shifty, but I won't be taking any car to any shop anytime soon. Until I'm a millionaire and have better things to do ... like being on nonstop vacation... I don't even want to own a car I HAVE to take to the shop.

Anyhoo... I stopped by the lot this morn. While the 928 isn't a total loss, its not in the condition I would want. It has been somewhat cheaply repainted, is leaking oil, and has rust bubbling up around the 3 rear windows.

However, I did look at 2 things on the lot that peak my interest.
This 40th anni Stang
And this really pretty Vanden Plas

Yes... very different. Here's the thinking, though. The Stang (like the Porsche) would replace the MR2. Something I could have fun at the track with AND have just enough room to shuttle the kids to school in the morn and continue on to work a few times a month.

The Jag, on the other hand, would be a 3rd car (5th total). The GTI has DD duties, the MR2 track duties, and the Jag is the limo for those days I want to be coddled.

Not at that dealer is an RX8. I've revisited this idea several times in the past and always turned away because of its impracticality for me as a DD. BUT ... as a toy, it would work just fine. Not to mention it can be a killer at the autoX.

So the 2 ideas are embodied by the Jag/Stang. Either a 4-seat track toy and sell the MR2, or keep the MR2 and add a limo. The limo could be 740, Jag, S-class, LS400, what have you. The 4-seat track toy seems to be a bit tougher to pin down. Oh, and I'd like to keep it within $8k.

Here is a good RX8 example.
I'm also considering an M3 or 330 sport, but both are tough to find in my price range that aren't miled up.

stickguy

I'm not a Mustang fan, but that one looks pretty nice.

I do really like RX-8s. They are quite fun to drive. Not sure how the back seats work with car seats, but I don't have to worry about that!

Might have to put one of those on my list for next year...

oregonboy

Something that I noticed about this dealer's inventory.... Every car has a dealer advertising sticker firmly attached to the rear paintwork. Classy !!! :sick: