Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

andre1969

the bidding gone up so high on this battered old beast? Normally I'd expect to see something like this finish out the auction with no bids at all, but I'm shocked to see it's gotten some attention (although most of the bids are by one person!) I guess the low starting bid got a little bit of excitement?

Is it because this thing has the 402 big block? Most of them just had 350's or 400 smallblocks.

lemko

"Needs cosmetic work..."

...then this car is the automotive equivalent of the Elephant Man.

au94

if it were mine, I might PAY someone 500 to get it off my property.

Mr_Shiftright

I never heard of a "402" big block. He must mean a 400 cid.

Anyway, these are worth about $1,500 in "fair" condition.

So the bid's okay.

andre1969

was a slightly bored-out 396 that Chevy started offering in mid-1969. Reportedly it was bored out to let it cope with emissions better, but I don't understand that. I'd always heard that big-bore engines were usually harder to control when it came to emissions...for some reason the magic number used to come in right around 4.00".

Anyway, it was mainly offered in the Chevelle SS396, and was still referred to the SS396 even with the 402. I think it also went into the Nova in limited quantities. I've seen it in the occasional big Chevy, usually a Caprice but occasionally an Impala. The Monte may have used it as well.

I think it was only offered from mid-1969 through 1972. Afterwards, Chevy mainly made do with 350/400 smallblocks and 454 big-blocks.

lemmer

I've never heard of a stainless steel roofed Caddy.

500 HP doesn't sound like a lot from a twin-turboed C5.

But it is a heck of a lot faster than this '70s Vette.

The same guy apparently likes slow Corvettes.

To me these two Vettes would be worth more as non-matching numbers cars, as the "correct" engine is such a dog.

fintail

I like those Eldo Broughams - I would easily take one over the overrated 59 Caddys - but they are quite complex and that one is pretty deteriorated.

andre1969

for a nice '58 Eldorado Brougham these days? When they were new they retailed for something like $13,333. Just for comparison, my neighbors bought a house that year for around $12K! (I wasn't around then, but looked it up online) They sold it back around Feb/March for $475,000.

I wonder how much a nicely preserved Eldo Brougham would have appreciated over the same time. It's interesting how many people want to put a car away for a long time to preserve it, thinking it'll be worth a fortune. FWIW, accounting for inflation $13333 comes out to around $87500 today.

BTW I prefer the '58 Eldo Brougham to those overblown '59's as well. Although the 1959 Eldo Brougham was very cleanly styled, and ultimately served as a preview of what the '61-62 Caddies would look like.

british_rover

The stock vette from that year made 345 so we are talking almost a 50 percent increase that is not so bad and probably about all the auto tranny can take.

Why would you spend all of that money on an auto tranny C5 anyway?

lemmer

I am not much for the big HP - Convertible combo either. It isn't like Vettes are the stiffest cars in the world to start with.

stickguy

wouldn't mind the convert if it was a 6 speed.

The '76s bring back bad memories of the '70s, plus it is the doggier of the 2 engines (the L82 was marginally less unpowerful). But, with a 4 speed, anything is possible...

fintail

I think a really great Brougham, one with no needs and a functioning suspension might bring 40-50K. This is for a car you could take to a major show and feel no shame. I see 'driver' cars in the low 30s.

That 59 isn't bad either, those were Pininfarina designed IIRC.

ghulet

http://chicago.craigslist.org/car/122369306.html

The seller acts like it'd be OUR loss if we don't buy his $1000 car likely on its last legs, so he can go to CarMax and get half, in the unlikely event they'd even buy it (you see 22 year-old Mercedes all the time at CarMax, right?).

fintail

"runs but does overheat sometimes" = "engine is shot"

Sounds like a good parts car for a few hundred bucks.

Mr_Shiftright

500HP Vette: -- the reason the HP seems "low" is probably because a) it is professionally built and Mr. Lingenfelter knows he wants his cars to run for more than 3 weeks without blowing up from overboost and b) because he's probably being honest and has dynoed the car, rather than "my friend says he's running 640HP from his (whatever)".

boomchek

Since you're the resident Benz expert here what's your take on the Pullman?

I am referring to the 1963 to 1981 Generation (W100 I think).



I've seen a few in the duPont Registry before and they have very high asking prices. Other than their exclusivity and possible history (belonging to heads of state) was there anything special about them. They looked like a stretched version of the S Class back of that time (W108,W109?).

Thanks for your input as this is probably the only classic Benz that's on my wish list.

lemmer

I guess my point is that I could chip my turbo Jetta and see an easy 500HP. I saw one on ebay like that.

Just kidding.

fintail

You better hope you win the lottery if you want to maintain one of those. It's like taking care of a castle or an ocean liner. Painfully complex cars, although they are very cool in their own way. Hard to find anything as sinister, and quality was through the roof of course.

They are referred to as "M100" cars along with the 6.3 W109s, and were a choice for celebrities and dictators back in the day. The SWB looks better than the pullman IMO.

If you're rich, go for it...can't be much worse than an old Rolls I guess. But be prepared for the extreme chance of five figure repair bills.

lemko

I love that 1958 Cadillac Brougham. The color must've looked close to that of my 1989 Brougham when it was new. These cars even came with their own set of drink tumblers. This would be an expensive project, but well worth it when you get done.

lemmer

944 - looks to be decent and market correct. Have you ever noticed that A/Cs on used cars only need recharging and never a new compressor or anything?

This 912 scares the heck out of me. I am not convinced that it is a good candidate for restoration. I can't believe he wants more than $2K for it.

Replica 356. I wonder want he wants for it.

Major 356 project.

jlawrence01

Have you ever noticed that A/Cs on used cars only need recharging and never a new compressor or anything?


It needs recharging if you are selling and a new compressor if you are buying ... A matter of perspective.

stickguy

Hmm, a black car in central Fla. with no AC. SOunds like an easy sell to me!

Actually, I think you should grab this one if it is as described. If nothing else, it will keep you away from some of the other scary beasts you tend to dig up.

If it was by me, I would probably take a flyer on it at this price, but I also have been known for a lack of common sense at times.

I don't care about AC on an old car like this, but it seems odd to have the compressor redone, but not have it charged up.

As to the others, the 912 is a money pit and the 356 a parts car at best 9and maybe not even that). Other than the color, the replica actually looks like the best of the bunch! He obviously wants at least 7K for it (minimum bid), and i suppose you could do worse for th emoney.

Caveat: No, I have never driven one, so I have no idea how scary it is tro drive.

So, let us know how you enjoy the new 944. At least it has a nice stereo.

Mr_Shiftright

If I may butt in---don't go near a Pullman at any price. It will eat you alive in repair bills. It was a very limited production car with none of the bugs worked out. A water pump (in the box) will cost you $1,500. They are also, amazingly, very uncomfortable to drive, especially the stretch model. It would easily cost you $1 a mile to drive.

boomchek

Thanks for the input. I have been attracted to Pullmans for some odd reason and I was just curious about them. :confuse:

lemko

...in the movie "Witches of Eastwick." Jack Nicholson as the devil had it as his ride. Could a Pullman be arguably more prestigious than a new Maybach? A Pullman seems to be the choice of a wise, important statesman. The Maybach seems to be the conveyance of a vapid Hollywood celebrity.

andre1969

in the old "Friday the Thirteenth" tv series that ran back around the late 1980s?

Mr_Shiftright

Remember the Pullman that broke down on international television when Kennedy visited Germany? Mercedes wasn't happy about that. They had to push it off the airstrip.

I don't think you'd get too much prestige from a car that broke down once a week.

fintail

I think a Pullman would be cooler than a Maybach. I recall a 600 in a Damien/Omen movie too, but it might have been SWB.

If I am gonna have a limo, it's gotta be imposing. A Maybach really isn't.

Mr_Shiftright

Get a Rolls Phantom V--just as unreliable as a Pullman but you can deal with the 1928 technology sooooo much easier! :P ...and the seats are way more comfy....

fintail

I like those Phantoms from the early/mid 60s, very elegant. Not so evil looking though.

A late 50s Caddy limo can have the same presence, for much less dough too.

jrosasmc

Did those 600 Pullmans really get a bad rap for breaking once a week?

jrosasmc

I noticed a rare vehicle in my local paper's classifieds today- an '86 Jeep J-10 pickup. I really can't recall the last time I saw one of those. Anyhow, it's advertised as having 95k miles, runs but has rust on the bed, seller wants $900 for it.

Shifty what do you think? Even though those Jeep trucks are rare they can't be worth much, I don't think.

lemko

...I'd want something like a 1960 Imperial limousine by Ghia.

andre1969

good lord, I didn't know they were still making those things in the mid 80's! My uncle had a '76 Jeep pickup. I think by that time they called it the Honcho? It was very tough and rugged, but outdated even back in '76. It felt more like a 60's truck than the wide, modern (okay, don't laugh) full-sized trucks of the 70's. But then again it was designed in the 60's.

The bed on my uncle's '76 was so rusted out that he pulled it off and actually built a wooden bed for it. I remember us putting the old steel bed up on top and hauling it to the dump. Don't ask how just the two of us got it up there, because my memory's blocking it out now! My uncle can be pretty creative about things like that.

Otherwise, the cab and front-end clip were still pretty solid, although it had some rust holes in the doors where someone had mounted trailer mirrors. He ultimately sold the thing to one of his buddies down in the Appalachians, and that guy still uses it as a farm truck.

It was a heavy sucker, too. I think we calculated that it weighed close to 5,000 pounds (took the weight on the dump scale, and subtracted out my weight and my uncle's). In comparison my '85 Silverado, which is a bigger truck, is only around 4200 lb. Oh, the Jeep was 4wd, so that was probably part of it. Forgot about that little detail

andre1969

why should a Benz Limo be much more difficult to maintain than a regular sedan? Did they use unique engines, trannies, brakes, etc? I could understand having more electrical problems, as you'd have more lighting, power assists, etc, and there'd be a lot of unique, rare trim pieces, but why the other stuff?

At least with an Imperial, Caddy, or Lincoln limo, the engine and tranny was usually no different from its sedan counterpart. Usually they just stuck a quicker rear-end in it so that the extra weight didn't bog it down so bad.

fintail

On the 600, the engine was special, a fairly limited production unit that now has monstrous running costs - makes a normal MB V8 look like maintaining a Civic. I am sure Shifty knows the real specifics, but common items like a starter or ignition components are priced to hilarity. Add in air suspension, pneumatic central locking, electric accessories, and all of the wood trim, and you're in for a project.

From my experience with period MB anyway, the transmissions are the least of ones worries. They usually hold up pretty well.

I can agree with that Ghia limo idea too, those are really cool and kind of evil looking. There's just something about some old limos...they speak of exotic and elegant, where new ones are a joke.

stickguy

gives me an idea. Take something like the Benz limo (one with mechanical needs), and rebuild it with modern components (the old CHevy V8 in a Porsche trick).

Difference being, it might be a better car, and actually affordable to run. Plus more reliable. Basically you are keeping the cool/stylish part, and getting rid of the tourblemaking pieces.

I know it will be expensive, but at least it will look cool.

I remember seeing a few other cars done like this (a 1940ish Caddy or some such other rare period limo).

lemmer

I was going to have my FIL check out that 944 in Orlando, but it already sold with "buy it now." Oh well, looking is the fun part anyway.

fintail

I've thought about that too...if you have a 600 with a shot engine, it would probably be cheaper to retrofit a new Corvette engine into it than rebuild the original powertrain anyway. Resto-rods are kind of cool. Same idea about putting a V12 in a fintail etc. The key is to make it a sleeper. The latter would involve enormous sums of money....but if you've got it...it's cooler than pimping out an Escalade.

andre1969

would there be a Benz engine that's fairly common, and more ecnomical to maintain, that would be a direct swap into the limo's engine compartment?

lemmer

German cars seem to have so much complicated stuff. The engine is usually just the beginning. I know very little about transplanting stuff, but what if the braking and steering systems are part of the problem? At some point, it might be easier to bolt the Bez body on to a GM chassis, and at that point why bother?

fintail

The most economical MB engines are modern 6 cyl units, especially the one in the 80s and early 90s E class, and some diesels too...probably not good choices for a large vehicle, as my old S class had that 6, and it was no screamer.

Perhaps an AMG tuned V8 could do...they are handbuilt and seem to be pretty reliable...common no, and economical no.

I don't know of braking and steering being especially problematic...unless you are working them around a transplanted engines. The German engines are just so expensive to fix if they are ran down. I'll see a used C43 engine offered at $7500, and a full proper rebuild on a V8 will run you well over 10K

stickguy

trying to be practical about this? Where's the fun in that?

Besides, some people spend rediculous amounts on crappy cars (like the pimped out Escalades), so you might as well get something unique out of it. besides, a Pullman with a bad engine and other needs is probably a 1K car to start with, so you have plenty of room to work with.

That, and you will stand out in a crowd.

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah I think you'd have to be a rocket scientist to convert a 600 Pullman into anything else. This is not "Hijacked" technology using welding torches and sledge hammers. The 600s are incredibly complex with hydraulic pneumatic suspension, hydraulic windows and seats and locks using piping that withstands 2500 PSI (!!!)...all of which are supported with hydraulic pumps running off the engine... I mean, you could do ANYTHING if you threw enough money at it, but what's the point? You can just throw $10,000 a year at the stock Pullman and probably keep it running decently enough for short trips somewhere.

Nah a Caddy or Chrysler limo has none of the prestige of these cars in the "higher" social circles---not even close---a Caddy limo is a prom car or airport limo for goodness sake. Eye appeal is different than prestige remember. Anybody who is rich knows a 60s Caddy limo costs $5,000. Won't work. But you might impress the locals if that's your goal, sure.

Keeping a 60s Cadillac running isn't all that easy, either BTW, but parts are more readily available so that's good.

stickguy

might as well do it right and get a 1940 or so model and do a resto mod on it (modern running gear and all that). You get the style on something that can actually be driven.

Mr_Shiftright

Now that's a good idea! You'd need to figure out how to build an engine big enough to move all that weight but yet not a "rude" engine--the car should be reasonably quiet.

I've seen American V-8s in various Benzes and they just don't work...something just basically incompatible that seems to ruin both the American V-8 and the German car simultaneously. Not a good result for all that work. Of course, we KNOW they work in British sports cars!

andre1969

or early 70's Caddy mill, like a 472 or 500 be enough to move a '40 or so Caddy limo? I dunno what a '40 limo would weigh compared to a late 60's/early 70's Caddy, but I'm sure switching from the big lump of a 40's engine to the 472/500 would probably save a pretty good chunk of weight.

fintail

How about a limo like that ca.38-ish Caddy limo I posted from ebay? That has some presence.

This car looks nicer than average, but the license plate is the good part

lemko

That looks like the same car that's been on sale in my neighborhood for 3 years. He only wants $1,500 now! Better hurry, because that 300D sure won't!

stickguy

I think that was the one that I was thinking about.

Shouldn't be hard, since American full size cars didn't change much between 1940 and 1970.