Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

jpp75

sda said:

hpmctorque said:

texases said:

The 2000-era VW/Audi 1.8l turbo 4 had lots of problems, IIRC. That went away in 2006. I was surprised both the 1.8 and 2.0 are listed in 2005 and 2006.

I think Audi made a mid-year change to the 2.0 jn the '05 model year.

And then you had the 2.0T. Though refined, powerful and economical it was troublesome. My 06 Passat used a quart of oil every 800-900 miles and had multiple repairs, check engine light warnings, etc in the 3 years that I had it. I traded it at 59k, just before the powertrain warranty expired as I was afraid of what was next $$. I understand the newer 2.0 engines are much improved.

We had an 07 with the 2.0T, it likewise burned oil and I never cared for the turbo lag. Typical of the VW cars of that era it hated every window regulator ever installed and had a Check Engine light that stayed lit more than not. This is why I now lease my Touareg.

stevedebi

jpp5862 said:

sda said:

hpmctorque said:

texases said:

The 2000-era VW/Audi 1.8l turbo 4 had lots of problems, IIRC. That went away in 2006. I was surprised both the 1.8 and 2.0 are listed in 2005 and 2006.

I think Audi made a mid-year change to the 2.0 jn the '05 model year.

And then you had the 2.0T. Though refined, powerful and economical it was troublesome. My 06 Passat used a quart of oil every 800-900 miles and had multiple repairs, check engine light warnings, etc in the 3 years that I had it. I traded it at 59k, just before the powertrain warranty expired as I was afraid of what was next $$. I understand the newer 2.0 engines are much improved.

We had an 07 with the 2.0T, it likewise burned oil and I never cared for the turbo lag. Typical of the VW cars of that era it hated every window regulator ever installed and had a Check Engine light that stayed lit more than not. This is why I now lease my Touareg.

Interesting. No problems yet with our 2014 Passat TDI 2.0 (except the EPA issues, of course, still to be resolved).

texases

Besides the 30,000 (!) model cars, there are some nice looking 'real' cars here. Any thoughts on what the Edsel wagon might be worth?
http://www.kare11.com/news/local/land-of-10000-stories/church-discovers-30000-cars-in-donated-house/88817062

xwesx

Wow; pretty impressive. Moreso than the collection, though, is the meticulous record-keeping! That wagon is a beauty, but then, I'm a sucker for wagons.

explorerx4

I saw that story presented in a different light. This version seems more realistic. He seemed like a happy guy in the pictures. I saw a C5 or C6 Corvette near the end of the story. I wonder who's that is.

Here is an ad for a master of understatement:
http://hartford.craigslist.org/cto/5501932901.html

Mr_Shiftright

Well no wonder he didn't have a wife. I knew a guy like this who collected antique toys---the house was also just filled with them, top to bottom. He had some very valuable pieces. One day, as we cleared a small space on a bench so we could find a place to sit down in his house, he said to me something like "I wonder why I just can't seem to hold onto a girlfriend"---LOL!

He actually left me a toy car---I'll post it later (not so valuable but one of my favorites---an old wooden children's toy).

sda

fintail said:

Look who came out today after several weeks of hibernation:



Started on the first turn of the key as usual, ran fine. Dash rattle somehow connected to the radio is driving me nuts, didn't get a chance to look at it, too lazy.

It has to be fun jumping from a current MB to fintail and taking in how different they are and how refined new cars have become. Yet the more basic character of fintail must be engaging in its own kind of way. It would be interesting to learn your impression.

Mr_Shiftright

You'd certainly come to understand that life went at a more leisurely pace in the 1960s, that's for sure and that humanity could get along quite nicely without heated seats and 500 buttons on the dash. The Mercedes of that time was rock-solid, comfortable, had a good heater and defroster, a decent radio with FM, a sunroof, very good MPG, good brakes and handling, radial tires, plenty of room for 5 people + luggage, and long life. Really, a 2016 car is an evolution, not a revolution, from a 60s Benz.

Probably the only thing lacking was the safety equipment and rust protection.

fintail

The fintail is a different animal, yet they have some similarities. Maybe most noticeable to me, MB has very consistent switchgear, the weighting seems to be the same in a new car or a 50 year old one. The modern car is 1000 lbs heavier, and more than twice the hp, so it is a different driving experience. The modern car is definitely a lot faster, but it doesn't always feel faster, as is quiet and easy - modern cars tend to isolate. The fintail is more "slow car fast" - you have to rev it and push it (the steering wheel is something to hold on to, not just to steer) to make it move, but the car was built for that, and likes it. It revs easy. I think the old car feels sportier in a way. As Shifty has mentioned, the FI engines need to be revved or they end up running rich and fouling out a little, which encourages spirited driving. I agree with his "evolution" idea, too. A new MB feels similar to an older model more than many cars, I suspect.

sda said:

It has to be fun jumping from a current MB to fintail and taking in how different they are and how refined new cars have become. Yet the more basic character of fintail must be engaging in its own kind of way. It would be interesting to learn your impression.

explorerx4

Pagoda
http://hartford.craigslist.org/cto/5508182489.html

fintail

Not a pagoda. If there was a pagoda in that shape for that money, buy it, you'll be able to flip and win. Even a 230SL like that could probably get to 25-30K without much effort.

That's a R107, the type made until 1989. Nice looking old car, but priced with optimism even with as clean and looked after as it is. They are cruisers rather than having any sport, and thirsty - the market hasn't embraced them yet.

ab348

fintail said:

That's a R107, the type made until 1989. Nice looking old car, but priced with optimism even with as clean and looked after as it is. They are cruisers rather than having any sport, and thirsty - the market hasn't embraced them yet.

When I see those I think of two things, both of them L.A. related: either a blonde trophy wife shopping on Rodeo Dr., or an overly-tanned "player" with a shirt unbuttoned down to the navel, lots of gold chains, a $200 haircut, and shades cruising along while talking on a phone.

Mr_Shiftright

explorerx4 said:

Pagoda
http://hartford.craigslist.org/cto/5508182489.html

Not bad for a chrome-bumper 450SL. These, unfortunately for them, are not "pagodas"---if it were it would be worth 10X the asking price at least.

These are a hard sell, as they are slow, clumsy, gas-eaters with dubious reliability records. On the plus side, if you buy a really nice one (and please, only buy a really nice one) and you keep after it, it's a lot of bang for the buck as a summer highway cruiser. Sports car? No. If someone offers him $10K, he should take it.

fintail

I was thinking that 107 was a 9K car on a good day, nice to be close. That's about the best year for them, small bumpers and no real emissions stuff, unlike those beloved 75+ models. And at least it isn't an SLC, it'd be worth a good bit less again.

I definitely see those as "disco chic" - maybe it will come back some day. Definitely something to cruise around LA in 1979 with Donna Summer or Rod Stewart on the 8-track. They have style, but like with most cars of the era, there are drawbacks, mainly US style mpg with German maintenance and parts prices.

explorerx4

I'm not too good at identifying MB's, and it kind of looked 'pagaoda-ish' to me.
How about this one? Not a pagoda.
http://hartford.craigslist.org/cto/5508557422.html

bhill2

explorerx4 said:

I'm not too good at identifying MB's, and it kind of looked 'pagaoda-ish' to me.
How about this one? Not a pagoda.
http://hartford.craigslist.org/cto/5508557422.html

Can I start by noting that the 300D isn't a 4 cylinder? It does look in good shape though. Shame it isn't a turbo.

texases

Over 300k? Sure would want a compression test.

fintail

That wagon is a great color combo, but I don't know about being close to that price with that many miles unless it passes an inspection for everything. I hope CL just doesn't have an option for 5cyl.

And as was mentioned, not a turbo (not until MY 1981, I think). It won't be slow like a 240D, but it won't be swift.

Mr_Shiftright

316K. If it doesn't pass a cylinder leakdown test with flying colors, and if the transmission, front end, and differential don't look and feel like near-perfect, and if the maintenance records aren't the size of a large birthday cake, I wouldn't touch it with a 40 foot telephone pole. With a worn engine, this car is totaled. Being a non-turbo, you are going to be scary-slow in certain situations.

I actually like these cars, but for $10K in the USA, it would have to hit a home run in the PPI.

stickguy

Isn't the T in TD for turbo?

Michaell

stickguy said:

Isn't the T in TD for turbo?

Nope - Touring.

berri

Michaell, I'm probably a minority, but I'd go the other way. Commuting expenses, reliability - I'd think more a new Camry or something similar. Great deals right now, low ownership expense, extremely reliable and low maintenance. It's a commuting car, right? Top Japanese brands don't make sense buying used, you don't save that much until they are getting old.

Mr_Shiftright

No, it stands for "Tourism and Transport" and the D is engine type.

Michaell

berri said:

Michaell, I'm probably a minority, but I'd go the other way. Commuting expenses, reliability - I'd think more a new Camry or something similar. Great deals right now, low ownership expense, extremely reliable and low maintenance. It's a commuting car, right? Top Japanese brands don't make sense buying used, you don't save that much until they are getting old.

Did you mean to post this in the "Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous" thread?

But yes, this would be for commuting.

I've owned a series of bland cars for some time - Saturn L300, Saturn ION and my Elantra GT - since 2002, and I'd like to treat myself to something more fun this go around.

berri

Not sure how I did that??? Then you need to go large buddy!!!

explorerx4

Looks pretty good if this is your gig.
http://hartford.craigslist.org/cto/5478578202.html

berri

I know I'm big time minority today and back in the day, but I don't care for how they chopped those 49-51 Mercury's. I always thought they were nice looking cars off the showroom floor. But those customs like you showed sure were popular.

Mr_Shiftright

Sigh..another photos FAIL. You'd think for $20K he'd have made the effort to use a flash.

stever

That reminds me - something old is new again, per this Scott Oldham photo:

gsemike

stever said:

That reminds me - something old is new again, per this Scott Oldham photo:

Is that from NY Auto Show? I saw that too

stever

Yes. There's probably a link around here somewhere - I grabbed it off the Edmunds Twitter feed though.

gsemike

Craigs on LI

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5513963950.html Summer is coming

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5505215763.html What is the offer for these?

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5494118342.html These are on the rise

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5494781656.html Later Z

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5481687413.html Another Z; more original

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5512988770.html Don't see these this clean anymore

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5490206749.html The SUV of it's day. This was high style for a family hauler then

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5512579776.html So much for those new brakes

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5512338704.html Interesting survivor

stickguy

I like that restored ZX. I was figuring that someone was losing his shirt doing all that work, and they confirm it in the ad! Assuming the mechanicals are nice and sorted as stated, seems like a fun car for modest money.

ab348

gsemike said:

Craigs on LI
http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5512579776.html So much for those new brakes

That line made me laugh, really hard, once I saw the pic.

I like that '73 Satellite for some odd reason!

Poor Estate Wagon looks like it was hit with lots of infrared rays. They were nice cars, but that isn't one now.

Don't understand why someone would drop $25K on an '80 280Z but what do I know? Never liked those even when new.

uplanderguy

No such thing as a '68 LeMans 'Sport'--that's something that was glued on that car from a '70-72-era LeMans.
Why do people do stuff like that?

My NAPA calendar for March has a green '64 Studebaker Daytona convertible, which I normally love, but the front fender "8" chevron emblem is a good four inches above where it's supposed to be. That would just slap me in the face every single time I climbed in the car. Why wouldn't you measure the holes in the old fenders, when you put the new ones on? So darn lazy. Easy to do correctly; almost impossible to correct later.

andre1969

I know someone, who lives in Rehoboth, Delaware, who recently bought an Estate wagon that could almost be a dead ringer for that one. He bought it, sight unseen, off eBay or Craigslist or something like that, and had it trucked. Somehow though it got damaged while loading it onto the truck. He hadn't insured it yet, and the seller only gave it a value of $500. While the damage didn't look too bad, it broke the header panel and damaged the front bumper, so it was a total. I forget what he did with it. I think he was going to try and fix it himself, but then gave up, sold it cheap, and moved on to a late 80's Panther wagon in a similar color.

tjc78

In some ways the Panther wagon was probably every bit as nice when loaded up.  With the right rear and dual exhaust also a better performer I'd think.  

xwesx

My mother had a '79 TA identical to that one. She owned it for quite a while (at least ten years), but she let it go downhill so much while she owned it. I think it barely had any paint left on it the last time I saw it.

ab348

andre1969 said:

I know someone, who lives in Rehoboth, Delaware, who recently bought an Estate wagon that could almost be a dead ringer for that one. He bought it, sight unseen, off eBay or Craigslist or something like that, and had it trucked. Somehow though it got damaged while loading it onto the truck. He hadn't insured it yet, and the seller only gave it a value of $500. While the damage didn't look too bad, it broke the header panel and damaged the front bumper, so it was a total. I forget what he did with it. I think he was going to try and fix it himself, but then gave up, sold it cheap, and moved on to a late 80's Panther wagon in a similar color.

I almost bought one of those myself back in '97. Went to look at one I saw advertised for sale at a heavy equipment dealer. The seller usually painted cars he was flipping John Deere green but this one got pained with a mistint for soemthign he got cheap - it was sort of a pinkish purple. I passed.

Mr_Shiftright

gsemike said:

Craigs on LI

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5513963950.html Summer is coming

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5505215763.html What is the offer for these?

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5494118342.html These are on the rise

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5494781656.html Later Z

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5481687413.html Another Z; more original

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5512988770.html Don't see these this clean anymore

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5490206749.html The SUV of it's day. This was high style for a family hauler then

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5512579776.html So much for those new brakes

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5512338704.html Interesting survivor

1988 Wrangler -- woof, woof---not a good combo, that 4 cylinder and Peugeot transmission!

63 & 65 Ford sedans --- I dunno, maybe $2000 bucks each if they run well. Pretty tired looking pair.


79 Trans Am--- Might be worth the asking price. I'd say $21,500 if it all checks out.


76 Monte Carlo---For $11K, it had better be "mint".

'73 Satellite -- clean driver? Offer $3K, 3,200 ish.

andre1969

tjc78 said:

In some ways the Panther wagon was probably every bit as nice when loaded up.  With the right rear and dual exhaust also a better performer I'd think.  

I always thought it was a bit curious that GM started putting Olds 307s in all the B-body wagons from 1987-90. They had already been in the Custom Cruiser and LeSabre/Electra Estate. However, for 1987, the Safari and Caprice, which had been using 305s, switched to the 307.

I wonder if the 307 was better suited to towing, and moving heavy loads? It had a bit more torque, 255 ft-lb compared to 245 for the 305, and it peaked at a lower rpm...2000 versus 2400 I believe. Peak HP came on lower as well. I think the 307 hit its 140 at around 3200, while the 305 hit its 165 around 4400?

Would that little bit of extra torque have been enough to make much difference though, I wonder? Or, maybe, with cars that were using the 307 becoming less common, maybe GM had too much production capacity, and decided to put it in a few more cars?

I vaguely remember a test that MT or C&D did where they compared a bunch of big wagons. The Pontiac Safari (sans "Parisienne") was in the test, so that would've put it around 1987-89. IIRC, the Panthers were the quickest of the bunch, and for some reason, the Pontiac Safari was the slowest of the bunch.

tjc78

With GM I'd wager they just had to make up for lower production.  I've never driven a GM wagon of that vintage but generally anything in that era with the 305 or 307 was pretty gutless.  They were very smooth and quiet, which was the intended purpose.  

Ford had the advantage in that time with multi port fuel injection in the 302. 

uplanderguy

I seem to remember that all of the full-size GM wagons ended up being built in the same plant in Kansas, and the sedans, elsewhere (Texas, for one). I've often wondered if that's the reason all the wagons ended up with the same 307 engine.

I think that may be the reason the Caprice wagon ended up with that big brushed-metal piece put between the rear doors and rear quarter windows--which I never liked. All of the wagons had that piece at some point late in the game, IIRC. I liked when the Caprice wagon just had the smallish Caprice emblem there instead.

BTW, that Monte Carlo looks nice, but no A/C.

ab348

I remember test-driving an '84 Olds Custom Cruiser wagon in the summer of '97. It was in the neighborhood I was living in at the time, owned by an old fellow. I remember he was asking $3K for it. It was a medium tan metallic with woodgrain outside. Both the paint and the woodgrain were badly faded and the paint had disappeared in spots on the roof and hood. There was also some surface rust around the stainless trim on the cargo area side windows, fairly common on these. It was brown inside and not in bad condition except the headliner was starting to sag in spots as those tended to do. It drove OK but was absolutely gutless on the highway. I remember flooring it to get on an expressway and it made a lot of noise but didn't seem to pick up much speed for a while.

When we finished up I told the old fellow that I wanted to think about. I called him the next day and said I was interested but not at the price he was asking. He asked what did I think it was worth, and I told him maybe $1500 to $2000. He hung up in my ear without another word.

berri

I like the big wagons from the 80's. Personally, I kind of preferred the big Mercury's back then. I thought they rode a bit tighter than the Olds and Buick wagons.

fintail

Over the weekend I saw a bit of "Adventures in Babysitting", something I remember from when I was a kid. A then-new 1987 Electra Estate Wagon plays a key role, driven by Elisabeth Shue:





Good GM product placement, as the parents in the movie had a then-new baby Eldo:

uplanderguy

I think the Buick of that era was the most elegant-looking big wagon, in and out, although it sounds like the 307 was a letdown.

andre1969

uplanderguy said:

I think the Buick of that era was the most elegant-looking big wagon, in and out, although it sounds like the 307 was a letdown.

I don't know if it was the engine, or the transmission that was a letdown. My grandmother's '85 LeSabre had the 307, and I didn't think it was bad. 0-60 was about 12 seconds, per Consumer Guide's test of an identical (307, 4-speed automatic, 2.73:1 axle) '85 Delta 88 Royale Brougham Holiday LS-something-or-other-longname-trim-level. Consumer Guide gave it a "4" on a scale of 1-5, for acceleration. They also tested a Crown Vic in that same issue, with a 302. It had the dual exhaust and quicker 3.55:1 axle, and did 0-60 in 10.5. They also tested a Parisienne with a 305 and 2.56:1 axle, and a Grand Marquis with the 302 and a ~2.73:1 ratio. While they didn't give a 0-60 time for those cars, they still rated them as a "4".

They didn't give an exact breakdown on what range a "4" covered, but I'd estimate roughly 9.5-12.5 seconds. I remember them having a Cressida that did 9.6, and it scored a "4", but some cars got low-9's and got a "5". 13 seconds got you a "3". I don't know what the cutoff was for a "2", but the Mercury Topaz ranked that, with 15.9 seconds. And I think a small SUV, like a Jeep Cherokee with a Chevy 2.8, managed around 17.3.

Anyway, I do remember Grandmom's '85 LeSabre liked to upshift early. If you shifted manually and held the gears longer, it was definitely quicker. I guess you could say the same for any car, but in the LeSabre it really seeemed to help.

Also, once you got up above 85 mph, the car seemed to get its second wind. I always theorized that was because at that speed, it wouldn't downshift, and the engine was finally revving fast enough to be in its peak power range? 4th gear was something like 0.667 in these cars, so with a 2.73:1 axle, that's like an effective 1.82:1 top gear. I dunno how fast it would go, because the speedo only went to 85.

Of course, the wagons were probably a good 500-600 lb heavier, if not more, so that would make a difference.

xwesx

Okay, guys. Give me a reality check here.....

I received a call from my brother in Oregon: My Pinto's home for the last two decades may be at risk. So, here's the question: Keep the Pinto, or don't keep the Pinto?

I don't want to try finding a new storage location for it, as it *definitely* isn't worth it. But, with my Subaru fiasco in full swing, I'm thinking maybe about doing something a little retro-crazy. Small block crate engine, manual trans, LSD for the rear axle. Not crazy power or anything (maybe 250 horses), just a fun retro car as a "new" daily driver.

I'm thinking about an $8K-10K budget. Am I off my rocker again?

stever

How about just grabbing all your toys and just moving south? Well, leave the plow behind. The economy isn't getting any better up there.